abusing a trafficked girl does not excite me one bit. my conscience forbids that in every immaginable way.

and if I ever met the cock sucker in person, he'd get his ass kicked...

not by me,

but by one of my tough guy buddies, maybe like MP. lol I'd start the fight and then hide behind  my friend or a  body guard, safe and sound lol some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill.  

seriously, if I found out  one of my ATF was being abused by some cock sucker pimp, I'd do everything within my ability to get her out of his reach.
I got plenty of extra rooms in my house  for her to stay a while if she need to. but I geuss my conservative fuckin gf won't approve. lol

I've learned since joining the hobby game last year providers, and clients talk about each other a lot.

Well last year in a certain area, information started to surface that a few providers who were popular with clients worked for a really abusive pimp. This resulted in the providers being "black balled" (in a good way) to the point, they quit touring this area which made the pimp a lot of money.

To make a long story short.

Have you ever refused to see a provider, because you found out she was working for an abusive pimp? Or

If you did find out a provider you enjoyed seeing was in this situation, would you continue to have sessions with her? Knowing her situation, and where & who the money is going to.

Bear with me here if this is way off the mark.  But, do the $300-$500 hr girls have pimps?  And if they do, why?

but I agree, we'll never really know.

Most of them don't admit it either.

It really sucks actually. ignorance isn't a bliss for me, things like this tend to bother me a bit.

And tell me something I don't know.

Of course there will be some girls who are pimped, any idiot knows that. Also, I agree pimps do a good job brain washing the girls.
However, just because a girl was abused and runs for her daddy does not mean you shouldn't attempt to help.

"She'll run for daddy so just forget about helping" = While it might be true it's still a bullshit logic. Even on general principle, it's a bs logic.

I do have a distaste for abusive pimps. It would be relieving to kick the shit out of them every chance I get.

Also, I know most of my ATFs quite well and know for a fact that they aren't pimped. No room for an abusive middle man anywhere at least not in the range I see.

It is difficult FOR a TRUE INDY to wrap our brains around the concept of a pimp. It is harder to wrap our brains around upscale girls having pimps, it goes against how the media has warped our fragile brains.

Yes, 300-400 hr girls have pimp....and so do girls who charge 1K+............it may be easier to pimp a girl who makes more money bc at that price the girls are in denial and cannot wrap their brains around:

Man lives with her, does not contribute a dime towards the bottom line in their household.
Man will not go find a fucking job
"To help her improve her business" Man posts her ads, schedules her appointments, screens for her, answers her emails, goes on tour with her for her bc she is busy finacially maintaining their household
There are girls on TER who don't even know their password and we read their ads all the time....that is not them posting....that is their lovely "Significant Other" aka THE PIMP

THAT IS A PIMP........not a boyfriend, not a husband....he is a PIMP nothing more and nothing less....but no one will ever convince the girl or most of her clients of that....bc it is hard to imagine.

The term "pimp" in many cases has now been changed to: "Significant Other"/or GAWD HELP US ALL HE MAY TURN OUT TO BE HER "BABY DADDY" which means she is stuck with this fucking douche bag loose for life.

"Man lives with her, does not contribute a dime towards the bottom line in their household.
Man will not go find a fucking job"

When the roles are reversed... we call this a "wife".

To think you do not see girls who are pimped. And while you may think you are helping a girl, she will say fuck you and run to her daddy.  I would be bold enough to say that any guy who hobbies with some frequency and only with indy girls, has unknowingly seen a few abused pimped girls.

*this post in response to the post who said he had a spare room should his atf be in the situation.

when you do again.  A Lot of women in this industry have a pimp of some sort or another.  Ignorance is bliss though.

of the term but you are not merely disagreeing with this poster but with the law - the law rarely makes any distinction between the tough black guy on the corner running a string of girls, and the college student who thinks she cam make some easy money as the "booker' for a lady.

     Both are participating in unlawful prostitution and accepting money for the prostitution activities of others and, while each state has different formulations of what constitutes unlawful "pimping,"  the college student may one day find she is being charged with the same felonies as the tough black guy on the corner.

    But yeah in the movies and on television they are quite different.

Fuck. From my own experiences I can't imagine knowingly want to get involved in that sort of shit again.

It amazes me how a lady could get involved in that deal. That guy does some major mind-fucking.

And preying on young women, just I don't know. Fucking totally fucked up.

Mentality of someone with a pimp is usually someone who doesn't know her ass from her front, emotionally fragile and/or messed up in other ways that she NEEDS someone to manage/run/control her because she thinks she can't do ANYTHING on her own and that spans across all "classes" of providers. Daddy issues or issues with other men in her life blah blah blah.

There are a lot of variables.

I can only recall one provider who had a pimp (It was her husband, who scheduled the appointments over the phone with me and seemed a rather congenial type.)

The provider was very good, and we had a connection (So I thought.) and I saw her about a half dozen times over the course of a year.

Still, there seemed to be a certain melancholy side to her that I could only guess at.  It upset me a bit, but not enough to stop seeing her.

One day I called her number and her husband said that she was taking some time off and would be back in about a month.  A few weeks later her site was down and the number disconnected, and that, as they say, was that.

Any one who assists a provider with her business is a pimp ...

Fact: Tough guys aren't abusive towards women.
 


 Visiting a provider at sleazy Hotel with doors facing the parking lot.She was not as her photo  portrayed. Told her I had the wrong room , turned and walked. Her pimp came out a few doors down, got in my face ,said I owed money.
To avoid a confrontation I threw him over the railing. Lucky for him, it was only one floor.


 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EqrKy1d0sM

correctly. "Booker" and "pimp" are not terms usually found in the law. The question is what are the services that the person you deem a "booker" provides and what would DA charge based on those services.

     If the booker screens the client, makes a date for the client, contacts the lady, tells her about the date, and the lady then goes and commits an act of prostitution, you better believe the DA could  charge her with both 76-10-1305(1)(a) - for encouraging, inducing or otherwise purposefully causing the lady to remain a prostitute - and 76-10-1306(e) -for managing or supervising a prostitution business.

         "But I'm just a booker," the girl sobs as she is led away in handcuffs facing a felony charge. Okay, maybe the DA is charing her with a felony to get her to testify against the lady and client and is willing to plead her down. If she refuses, she can argue that to the jury. Maybe, they will ultimately agree, maybe not- don't know what the community feels about prostitution in Utah. In this business, however, the charge itself is usually devastating enough and compared to the small amount the booker is paid well - well, you have to be clueless to be a booker.

      So as i stated in my post, the clueless booker may well find herself facing the same charges as the pimp.

You know, the good ones. Who wear the white hats.

To answer your questions:

I won't book circuit girls -- they're all pimped

I won't book AMPS -- they're all pimped

I won't book foreign girls -- they're probably pimped

I won't book through agencies -- they take too big of a cut, too much risk

I book indy women, unless they have a SO or husband I know of, then I won't book. I don't care if they have a female assistant.

I do try to find strippers who are ready to 'come over to the dark side.'

What providers do with their money is not my business, but if there appears to be pimpage involved, I won't book.

I am only interested in seeing providers who CHOOSE to be in this line of work, and enjoy their choice. If they say they do, and how they act and present themselves matches that, then I'm OK.

There is no guarantee that I am not somehow contributing to a bad situation, but I earnesty try to avoid doing that.



HalfHour

Someone who handles phone traffic, booking and screening is not a pimp.  Not here to argue, but, c'mon, really?  Lots of independent gals I've seen have bookers.  In one case the provider has never even met the screener.  In another case, he's a former monger.  This are not pimps.  They don't turn out girls into the hobby and keep all the money.  That is what a pimp does.  They don't abuse the girls to keep them in line.  That is what a pimp does.  All a booker does is handle the administrative part of her business for a fee.  If you don't get the difference then we simply disagree on the definition of the term "pimp."

To come out right. LOL.

What are you??? Some right-wing religious fundamentalist running for office on a morality platform? Some facist christian prosecuting attorney???  How old are you???

That statement is ludicrous. Give it a deep think.

The single mom provider does outcall only. Her next door neighbor is her friend and knows. She's supportive of the mom. She loans her a car for a few days while the mom's car is in the shop, to assist the mom for her outcalls. Neighbor friend is now a pimp??????

Upscale high-dollar provider is low-volume and has a busy life. Her weathy clientelle have nary the time nor the inclination to play the leave-a-message-wait-for-callback routine. Uspcale hires and trains a personal assistant, who is employed on a salary, to make upscale's business and personal matters go smoothly. Assistant takes all calls, screens, and makes appointments. Assistant is now a pimp???

Come on!


HalfHour

Thanks for the detailed response.  Yes, it is very hard for me to wrap my head around an upscale independent girl having a pimp.  The way you describe it as someone makes sense and now is also mainly known as sig other.  Alot of strippers have these sig others too.  It's that same mentality - some girls are just not comfortable in their lives unless they have an abusive guy around....it's all they've known.

When I think of pimp (by the classic movie image) is like when a hot Elizabeth Shue was abused in Leaving Las Vegas by her pimp for not making enough money.  The kind of pimp who has multiple girls working for him.  Not necessarily the one guy "managing" one girl so to speak, but you are right A.  That's still a pimp - even if it's not the classic "pimp", as portrayed by movies and tv.

WTF????

about the law and he was absolutely correct.

      And we are not talking about the OP but the poster to whom you replied.

"I'm rubber and you're glue, that bounced off me and stuck to you" ??????????

It's actually neither, and why are you hiding your TER handle?

We dont know anything about each other personally, only the word that one posts. I've yet to see anything intellegent written by you to establish your point of view.

I don't beleive I am right about all things, but and my viewpoints DO change if I learn something new that corrects my existing knowledge. Which in this case is many years experience in some areas that I will not divulge on this board. Suffice it to say I am anything but nieve; believe what you will.

But right here, right now, I'm waiting for something, ANYTHING remotely intellegent to be written by you. So you have any information to offer, anything that demonstrates some measure of critical thinking skills?

Seriously. Let's hear it!


HH

OP was about abusive pimp's i.e. "Gorilla Pimps" which are the stereotypical pimp in the eyes of the uneducated masses.

PIMPING IS NOT A LEGAL TERM - read that 100 times.

Then down the thread an asinine comment was made hijacking this into a legal realm. Attached was a link to a recent California Supreme Court   Ruling on existing Pandering Law wgich has not one fucking thing to do with the idioting assertion that legally everyone who assists a prostitute is a pimp. Hell! that's pure bullshit even on a conseptual level.

marikod, this post is not directed in any insulting way to you at all! I think if you research that ruling you will see that Mr. Trick is full of shit.


HH

Thank you! That is sincere. Great post.

I think you make a very strong argument there. Legally if an personal assistant (like the example I gave) was arrested and charged with pandering based on the facts he/she handled the booking, I believe that prosecution would pressnt that argument, and possibly prevail. Good defense would have to show all of the other "assitant" duties and assert their client had no knowledge of the true nature of the appointments.

Such would be a very interesting case, and would likely help define the interpretion of the pandering laws.

My example  of an assistant was given with the idea of a true employer/employee relationiship which I have witnessed on limited occasions. The experienced truly independant high dollar call girl, who has another woman answer the phone and simply sets appointments, run references, etc. where the lady gives the final OK. The assistant works for no one else, does all the legwork, lady doesn't want to be bothered by it and the scenario works.

It's not overly common but it does exist. The arrangemeny is secretarial in nature, with no shift in power. That example would be tough to put into a pimp catagory, either morally or legally as I see.

From my experience, when a booker is scheduling several women, would have to say you're comments are spot on. There is much more pimping in those situations than is commonly acknowledged.

THANK YOU AGAIN for a well thought out ans well written response!



HH

They have three classes of pandering. Here is the law:

"76-10-1304. Aiding prostitution.

(1) A person is guilty of aiding prostitution if he:
(a) solicits a person to patronize a prostitute;
(b) procures or attempts to procure a prostitute for a patron;
(c) leases or otherwise permits a place controlled by the actor, alone or in association with another, to be used for prostitution or the promotion of prostitution; or
(d) solicits, receives, or agrees to receive any benefit for doing any of the acts prohibited by this subsection.

(2) Aiding prostitution is a class B misdemeanor. However, a person who is convicted a second time, and on all subsequent convictions, under this section or under a local ordinance adopted in compliance with Section 76-10-1307 is guilty of a class A misdemeanor. (as last amended by Chapter 107, Laws of Utah 1991)

76-10-1305. Exploiting prostitution.

(1) A person is guilty of exploiting prostitution if he:
(a) Procures an inmate for a house of prostitution or place in a house of prostitution for one who would be an inmate; or
(b) Encourages, induces, or otherwise purposely causes another to become or remain a prostitute; or
(c) Transports a person into or within this state with a purpose to promote that person's engaging in prostitution or procuring or paying for transportation with that purpose; or
(d) Not being a child or legal defendant of a prostitute, shares the proceeds of prostitution with a prostitute pursuant to their understanding that he is to share therein.
(e) Owns, controls, manages, supervises, or otherwise keeps, alone or in association with another, a house of prostitution or a prostitution business.

(2) Exploiting prostitution is a felony of the third degree. (as last amended by Chapter 32, Laws of Utah 1974)

76-10-1306. Aggravated exploitation of prostitution.

(1) A person is guilty of aggravated exploitation if:
(a) In committing an act of exploiting prostitution, as defined in section 76-10-1305, he uses any force, threat, or fear against any person; or
(b) The person procured, transported, or pursuaded or with whom he shares the proceeds of prostitution is under eighteen years of age or is the wife of the actor.

(2) Aggravated exploitation of prostitution is a felony of the second degree. (as enacted by Chapter 196, Laws of Utah 1973)"

It isn't the same at all at least in my state. It is years in jail different as far as Utah law goes. I can't speak for other states but I doubt Utah is the only state that sees the differences between an abusive pimp and a booker.

He was asserting that, for purposes of his own ethical approach to the hobby, and whom he would (or would not) patronize, that bookers are pimps.  My post disputed that.  Nothing to do with what the law says.  And it's not just on TV or in the movies.

but I will try to use ESP the next time I read one of your posts LOL.

     In the meantime, you might note that even Mr. Trick now says he was talking about the legalistic side, as if the link he posted was somehow unclear. So your insistence that "we are...talking NOT  about legalities" remains your view, not his or mine.

      And I was not trying to beat up on you so much as I wanted to bring out a very important legal point that so many do not comprehend - that if you book dates for a lady, you may find yourself in deeper trouble with the law than the lady herself. So please try to tolerate the "legal BS" if you can.

     The law just hates third party involvement in prostitution and the third party - whether booker or pimp - is potentially subject to higher charges than the lady who actually commits the unlawful act.  Check out the Desert Divas indictments if you want to see this in action.

I don't think there is much disagreement here except possibly about semantics.

There is enough true ill will and mean spirited posting here without you guys arguing about something you both actually agree on.

Lets find something else to fight about, This is only a polite request, please don't make me be less polite about it. lol

If you are wondering why I am acting so far out of character, I just won a four team round robin when SF won in 11 innings. Woo Hoo, drinks on me!!! lmao

Now STFU, both of you. lol oops so much for being nice I guess.

any further comments will be removed and the poster moderated.

I guess I'm not allowed to be fucking nice even on the rare occassions that I want to be.

I was talking about the legalistic side, and that the technical definition of a pimp covers a broad spectrum of the behind the seens operations, I believe most bookers, etc have the ladies best interests
in mind. I refer to a guy or gal that influences a girl to prostitute through violence, etc as a
(traditional/old skool pimp)

Am I to take it pimps are pretty much the norm rather than the exception with upscale Indy providers?

naivete

Every time someone controls the provider's schedule or clientele for a cut of her session, rather through fee or percentage, that person is acting as a pimp.  Once money is involved between her and her "helper," then there is a level of control that is passed.  The scheduler controls the screening of the clients, the time during which the transaction will be performed, and the overall work flow.

Now, whether the "helper" is a good pimp or bad pimp depends on that person.  Let's say the provider NCNS on a client that was scheduled by the "helper."  What are the consequences?  Does the scheduler still get paid? What does the scheduler do to ensure that it doesn't happen again?  All of these are some of the duties of a pimp.

She doesn't have to be standing on the street corner and getting smacked around for her "helper" to be a pimp.

You are acting like a Philadelphia lawyer.  My point was that both Mr.Trick and the OP were referring to the classic abusive pimp type and not wishing to patronize girls being used by such pimps.  So I responded to both of them by saying bookers are not this type of pimp, no matter what the law may say.  We are (or were, until you turned this thread into legalistic BS) talking NOT about legalities but about the personal ethics of people who don't wish to participate in a woman being  exploited in a classic pimp situation.  If an indy provider has a booker who handles her screening and appointments only, that is NOT such a situation.  What is so hard for you to get about this?  Sheesh!  Please go back to court in Philly tomorrow!  LOL!

In the post I responded to, Mr. Trick said:
"Any one who assists a provider with her business is a pimp."
Where does this say "legally?"  It just makes a blanket statement that isn't true.  If he qualified it later, fine.  But I was responding to the original statement which, on its face, is simplistic.
And the original poster made it quite clear he was talking only about moral qualms.  This is the tenor of the discussion I was responding to, and legal distinctions have nothing to do with it.  Clearly the law makes no distinction between a booker and a pimp.  It's blantantly obvious.  And if you wanted to simply point out there is a legal aspect, that's fine, too.  But your continued corrections of my post simply illustrate a narrow-minded and inadequate reading of what I said.  An indy who uses a booker to screen and arrange dates for a fee is obviously not the same as a girl who's being "run" by a pimp in the classic sense.  She's about as far from being a true indy as anyone can imagine.  If you see an indy through a booker it's a completely non-abusive transaction.  If you see a girl run by a classic pimp, you are contributing to her abuse. This is all I was talking about, so I'm baffled by why you continue to argue about it.

-- Modified on 7/17/2011 7:07:55 PM

Level 1

"76-10-1304. Aiding prostitution.

(1) A person is guilty of aiding prostitution if he:
(a) solicits a person to patronize a prostitute;
(b) procures or attempts to procure a prostitute for a patron;
(c) leases or otherwise permits a place controlled by the actor, alone or in association with another, to be used for prostitution or the promotion of prostitution; or
(d) solicits, receives, or agrees to receive any benefit for doing any of the acts prohibited by this subsection.

(2) Aiding prostitution is a class B misdemeanor. However, a person who is convicted a second time, and on all subsequent convictions, under this section or under a local ordinance adopted in compliance with Section 76-10-1307 is guilty of a class A misdemeanor. (as last amended by Chapter 107, Laws of Utah 1991)"

Is any aid in helping a prostitute preform an act of prostitution. This is like if I got MP a lady if he visits me. Or gave a lady a ride to her appointment or wrote a review that encourages other to see her. Only a class B misdemeanor, same as seeing the lady or a fist time bust of a prostitute. Max $750 fine and six months in jail, normally just a fine of $500 to $750 and probation and a class.

Level 2

"76-10-1305. Exploiting prostitution.

(1) A person is guilty of exploiting prostitution if he:
(a) Procures an inmate for a house of prostitution or place in a house of prostitution for one who would be an inmate; or
(b) Encourages, induces, or otherwise purposely causes another to become or remain a prostitute; or
(c) Transports a person into or within this state with a purpose to promote that person's engaging in prostitution or procuring or paying for transportation with that purpose; or
(d) Not being a child or legal defendant of a prostitute, shares the proceeds of prostitution with a prostitute pursuant to their understanding that he is to share therein.
(e) Owns, controls, manages, supervises, or otherwise keeps, alone or in association with another, a house of prostitution or a prostitution business.

(2) Exploiting prostitution is a felony of the third degree. (as last amended by Chapter 32, Laws of Utah 1974)"

The normal non-pimp booker or agency, is a felony of the third degree. one to five years in prison and a huge fine. Much worse the being a the john or the prostitute, but not as bad as the next one.

Level 3

"76-10-1306. Aggravated exploitation of prostitution.

(1) A person is guilty of aggravated exploitation if:
(a) In committing an act of exploiting prostitution, as defined in section 76-10-1305, he uses any force, threat, or fear against any person; or
(b) The person procured, transported, or pursuaded or with whom he shares the proceeds of prostitution is under eighteen years of age or is the wife of the actor.

(2) Aggravated exploitation of prostitution is a felony of the second degree. (as enacted by Chapter 196, Laws of Utah 1973)"

What I call the pimp, the guy manipulating and abusing ladies to prostitute themselves. (or any guy dumb enough to be married to a lady that provides, pimp-like or not)  It is a felony of the second degree. That means three to seven years in prison and a huge fine of several thousand dollars. Plus they have to register as sex offenders as well. Much harsher then the booker that just get paid to make appointments.

You are correct in that "booker" and "pimp" are not legal terms. But I differentiate between them in the way they operate. The booker works for the lady or the lady works for the booker and there is no coercion in the relationship and the lady is free to leave without any repercussions. With a booker the lady has the power. Now with a Pimp he tries to control the lady using threats, violence, blackmail, drugs and the like or is involved in under age prostitution, or trafficking situations. Not the same at all.

Yes, both the pimp, and the booker get more time then the provider or her clients. But the "booker" does not see as much time as what I would call a "pimp". There is different charges for different levels of pandering.

Maybe we are using a different definition of "pimp"? But Utah does legally have three levels of pandering. Each with different punishments. I only see those in the last group as true pimps. Maybe that is the disconnect between us.

By the way, most people in Utah hate prostitution, and anything related to it. Most, if not all, place in Utah actively prosecutes anything to do with prostitution.

And, to mari, FYATPYRIO !  Bwwwwaaaahahahahaha!

(Just ask any litigious douchebag.)

3 actually but .... pimps being the norm rather than exception for upscale/pricey indy providers.....I dunno.