I recently had a conversation with a Minnesota provider, who I won't identify, but is on TER.  I can't identify the hobbyist, because I don't know who it is.   It seems she had an appointment with a hobbyist who set out to "get her drunk".   During the session, she blacked out and doesn't remember what happened, but believes (based upon the physical evidence) that the hobbyist did her bareback while she was blacked out.

This is dumb...  

He's a danger to providers AND hobbyists alike.  I would like to know who this is and who it happened to as providers can and do offer each other support.   If she chooses to reach out to other ladies, she should only tell a few whom she feels she can trust.  I do not think it appropriate to discuss this type of thing with hobbyists though.

That is of course "if" she drank herself into a "black out." opposed to being drugged. First & foremost, he can't "get her drunk." She had to be the one to bend the elbow to consume the alcohol. Ahem... that would make it HER choice. Secondly, because she was in a "black out" doesn't mean she was raped or taken advantage of. It's a fact that often times while in a black out many people appear coherent & even sober for that matter. Under such circumstances there would be no reason to assume that her consent was amiss if she proceeded without protest. Now if she were "passed out" that would be a different story. Then again my question would be why would she allow her consumption to get that much out of control? Again, HER choice

No body deserves to be raped or sexually assaulted.      This "blaming the victim" attitude has kept
many women from reporting such crimes (even outside the hobby) and have kept rapists on the street
to continue their abuse and victimization.  

Wow...

Leann isn't wrong at all.  She just pointed out possibility that two consenting adults may have over indulged. Then they did what millions of couples have done and acted very irresponsibly.  No crime.
Good point Leann.

Based on this definition and assuming it accurately describes the circumstances the OP listed, I would say that her behavior wasn't smart but his was reprehensible although probably not illegal.  He had to have known what her state was and even if that wasn't his intent, to take advantage of it is completely immoral IMHO.

This hobbyist's objective was to get the Provider drunk and have unprotected sex.  Should she have remained in control of the situation by staying sober?  Absolutely.  The fact that she failed to do so does not justify what the hobbyist did.   I have had two instances where I was confronted with a drunk provider, one I just put her in my bed and let her sleep it off.  We had a very nice session when she awoke.  The other I simply put her in a cab and sent her on her way.

Where did you see that the gal CONSENTED?  I do not often drink and when I do, I know my limits.  However, I had a friend once bring the fixings to make a special drink for us to share.  After having consumed only one of these drinks, I found myself surprisingly intoxicated.   Thankfully, I was with a gentleman who did not take advantage of me.  But, he could have.  What ever the circumstances in this instance, this was not consensual and he was not a gentleman.   Blows my mind how insensitive some people can be.  Shame on you leann.   Thanks Belinda for all you do!

The OP didn't say that "two consenting adults may have over indulged" - it said that non-consensual intercourse took place. You're talking about a different situation. What the OP described is evil.

..... Reasonable, intelligent and insightfulI people invariably get ridiculed on these boards by people who aren't.
Don't fall into this trap Leann!

+1!  
I'm agreeing because under NO CIRCUMSTANCES is the inebriated person at fault.  
He should know better! Drunk doesn't equal a yes. It never will.  
Never mind how disgusted I am with the fact he couldn't even use protection.
Grrr.

Do you know this for a fact? How would you know what his intentions were?

How do you know she didn't consent? She was blacked out, not passed out, she may have consented to it, you don't know.

Is this a new/different story? Or the same story?...,
Recently, a known local provider being roughed up/beaten up by a TER BOARD hobbyiest?
Or are these stories different involving different people?
Some of you don't know it, but Minnesota (ahem) gentlemen have a bad rep. That is not a personal opinion, I've heard it from plenty of out state reliable sources.  

whatever woman had to deal with this I AM VERY SORRY FOR YOU..
I hope you are ok...

And I stand firm behind my response. Society uses the term "victim" way too loosely these days. (IMO) Further more, what's to say the scenario as relayed is in fact a TRUE account of what really happened? NONE of use including the OP really knows & I for one am suspicious.

Leann and I read a post about a story, a third and fourth person story, and then she pointed out a possible scenerio that maybe the story wasn't as awful as it appeared.  I was defending logic and Leann.  My bad.

It appears that we have one side of what occurred. The OP is unable to identify the hobbyist. The alleged hobbyist/rapist may or may not be known to the TER community. Seems to me that this may be a complete rush to judgement. Perhaps I am preaching to the choir, but, ladies and gentlemen periodically we need to remind ourselves this is the business we have chosen. We should all be well aware of what consequences we expose ourselves to. We do this voluntarily and hopefully no provider is being coerced, pimped or trafficked.  

How do you know it was non-consensual? She blacked out, she may have consented.

Exactly.

I think two words suffice:  

Yes, it is very reasonable to conclude that she consented to bareback a guy. Seriously. You fucking rape apologists and victim blamers are disgusting.

you weren't defending logic. you were playing out the tired role of rape apologist. "

What would be worse, to be raped or wrongly accused of rape?

Take your false equivalency and stuff it in your ear.

you know she didn't consent because she's so drunk she's blacking out. you know this because you're a human being with fucking empathy. people who are blackout drunk don't act like people who are still sober enough to consent.

Nothing false here, the two are directly related and have been discussed as such in this thread. I have been wrongly accused myself and thought the question would be valid except maybe in a different thread.  

I'm so glad I don't drink at all while working. God forbid something bad happen to me *shudders * at the thought of how many would say it's all my fault for trying to be accommodating.
 from my standpoint as someone that's noticed a lot of individuals with self entitlement issues around here ( as in the "Im payng for it so I can do what I want" mentality.)  I also know
 There's plenty of hobbyists that have either harassed me or pushed my boundaries after I've said no to the point where I had to defend myself verbally &  physically over the years because of that same mentality ( there's a very good reason I warn people about minding their manners. but would I out them here?  Nope.  
Because that's what blacklists and the PO board are for.  
I'm thinking she probably has a better way to handle the situation.  
As for telling someone she trusts that happens to be a hobbyist, it could be a bunch of crap but who knows .
These things aren't to be taken lightly regardless.  
 

Almost like it's been demoralized because of the alcohol factor.  
Hmmm much like when a woman is found murdered & they find out she was a sex worker how her name suddenly changes to " prostitute" as if she's an entirely different being now so, that somehow makes it ok.
That's exactly what Ms leanns comments remind me of. No offense to you Leann. Just noticing that.

His opening statement to her was to get her drunk.  I'll take him at his word.

early on, years ago, the provider was ALWAYS in control of the session.  No booze, no drugs, no breaking the rules.  With the internet opening up the hobby to many women who wouldn't otherwise be providers, and to men who might not otherwise be hobbyists, things have loosened up.  

Then you're hearing what you want to hear & missing my point entirely.

My point exactly! Providers need to take CONTROL! You don't necessarily have to exclude alcohol. I actually like to include a bottle of Champagne at the Jacuzzi, wine & appetizers, in a candlelit room but as romantic enhancers, used in moderation. It can be done. Thanks Pollenbroker.

How unfortunate it is that there are people out there that are willing to put other people at risk for their own pleasure!!  It also points out that providers need to be careful and under control during any encounter.

First of all I think what happened here is a good warning for both providers and hobbyist to avoid most drinking while playing.  I was once on a snowmobile weekend with three close cabins of people.  In one of the other cabins was a twenty something lady who was obviously having a very good time, but seemed in total control.  Well she did something very funny that everybody laughed at and talked about for a long time.  Well it was several hours before she went into bed.  At no time during the night did I ever think she was not in total control and able to make responsible decisions.  Well the next morning I teased her about the funny thing she did and she had no recollection of it.  So it is possible for a person to seem capable of making smart decisions when there not.  I drink very little while playing.  And I'd like to point out I am not trying to defend the man in this case.

Non-consensual sex is rape. It doesn't matter to whom it happened to or what led up to it.

But you totally wrote it to look like that though & that's why people are wondering wtf.  
Again this why I don't indulge with any client I don't care who they are or how long I've known them.
 Hopefully she'll put it up for all of us to see on a blacklist somewhere soon if not already.

Let's gather a mob and burn this motha down!  All based on heresay and a he said/she said with no names even mentioned.  

I don't think anyone is missing your point.  A woman gets raped while walking to her car at night to an isolated parking ramp took a chance she shouldn't have.  It is still rape.  She still doesn't deserve it.

Sorry, I guess I was wrong, I didn't realize you were there also.

(Let me be clear that this isn't a commentary on the "situation" being discussed here. None of us know what happened there.  This is just in reply to Jonas' comment and similar ones made by a few others.)

Really?? Sorry you were accused, and I've never been a victim of rape but I think I lean towards being accused over being a victim of a violent sex crime.  Semi-hard, if I didn't see it here in black & white I would not believe I actually read this.  

wtf.    That's crazy non-sense right there.    WOW

a victim of rape can NEVER get back what she had taken from her.

Yes, you are right. But we here should not be the judge, jury and the executioner.

Good point Belinda.

Not taking sides here. Just a few facts. I have known two women who had blackout problems.
Until I knew them very well, I had no idea they were in that condition. It is very possible to unknowingly give consent, and in my experience, even be the aggressor when in that state.
I'm not saying the provider in question gave consent, but I'm also not looking for a tree to hang the accused.  
Don't jump to conclusions. Just sayin'.

Did he coerce her somehow into doing this?

Then you go on to say he made the suggestion prior to the appt?! THAT is where a decline to his request should have occurred to begin with! Good grief! Keep talking. The more you talk the more I'm convinced this is nothing more than BS.

So do I.Leanne is only pointing out that one should be responsible to one's self.If you don't want to get hurt,watch out for yourself.

Her first red flag should have been when He told her he was going to get her drunk. Also, no one forced her to consume the drinks. Now, I'm not condoning his behavior, he was terribly wrong, if its a true story. I have my doubts that it is.  

I thought I better clarify when I said agreed with Uptonogood, it was his last post above mine about the risk of a woman walking to a parking lot at night and getting rape and I agreed to what Ms. Good said about being confused and what a drag it was to return home to read the OP.

After reading through the thread again last night , I must say that I also agree with Leann and Big Dell as well as others and do not think it was mean spirited of her with her comments.

I very rarely drink in my real life. Unless it is a well known client I have known for years and we share some wine or champagne , a cold beer-that's about it. I think once I saw what this mans intentions were to really hit it hard and really try to coerce me into getting drunk and I am assuming this was a first meeting, the session would of been ended by me, money would of been returned and I would even take a loss on my time and expenses.

If this story told to Uptonogood who I believe is well-meaning and it is not fiction, then for what-ever happened , its a real shame, no woman should be treated that way, but if it is true, I would hope the provider would share  her story from her fingers on the Provider only board and offer to give details through private mail, its the right thing to do to protect others- I have not seen that , at least yet- J. xxxoo

I agree, sounds a lot like a Drama Queen to me. Not a lot of facts have been posted, just a lot of hearsay and allegations.

Blacking out is not the same as passing out, you have to understand the difference.

She and I have had our disagreements but assault and rape is not to be condoned no matter who the victim is and regardless of the circumstances surrounding the assault.

How do you know she didn't consent? Were you there?

Why don't we ever tell men HOW NOT TO RAPE instead of telling women HOW NOT TO GET RAPED?

We are told the client told the provider at the start he intended to get her drunk.  The question then becomes why she didn't end the session right then and there.  If she tried to and he coerced her  then that it is clear cut case of rape.  But she said nothing to the OP about being forced.  So then the question becomes is the story the provider told true at all because I don't see why she wouldn't end the session right away unless she was forced to go through with it.

Though I agree with Belinda and others in that if this was rape it shouldn't be tolerated but to vilify and make absurd demands of Leann and others for asking the hard questions is also deplorable.  
Do we truly know that the hobbyist was out to get her drunk for the explicit reason of unprotected sex?
Does she even know what really happened?
Did he know she was blacked out?
If you posters are willing to exonerate the provider because she was drunk are you also willing to exonerate the hobbyist if he was?
There are to much hearsay here to rush to judgement

The only two that know what really happened that day are the client and the provider. Her word against his.  
I agree with vorlon, she should have ended the session when he told her he was going to get her drunk. As has been stated before, ladies, and also the gentlemen here, ALWAYS be in control of your situation.
As far as bringing alcohol to a session with this provider, she's an adult, she can make the decision as to weather to drink it or not. Its her choice to make. If she can't make a good decision, then maybe she should seek help.

Thanks for coming to the rescue! We can all relax now knowing that you have educated all the perps out there & they are now hanging THEIR heads in shame & will change their evil ways so we no longer have to have our guard up & assume any level of responsibility for taking precautions to keep ourselves safe. PHEW! You've no idea how much of a burden that has been!

You would not believe how many providers do things they do not wish to do because of the threat (spoken or unspoken) of bad reviews, lost clientele, and back channel.   Men have power here in the form of money, size, strength, and talk. Money is a huge motivator for both good and bad.  Providers who make this there sole source of income may feel they have to do certain things for the money......to keep a roof over there heads and feed their family's,  for the reviews (good reviews keep clients rolling in) and to prevent back channel talk.   Some men will take advantage of the fear that these things can and do instill in providers.

Coercion is the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats or intimidation or some other form of pressure or force, and describes a set of various different similar types of forceful actions that violate the free will of an individual to induce a desired response. These actions can include, but are not limited to, extortion, blackmail, torture, and threats to induce favors. In law, coercion is codified as a duress crime. Such actions are used as leverage, to force the victim to act in a way contrary to their own interests. Coercion may involve the actual infliction of physical pain/injury or psychological harm in order to enhance the credibility of a threat. The threat of further harm may lead to the cooperation or obedience of the person being coerced.

Agreed ... Hopefully the provider in question sees this and comments ... She can make a new account. If the hobbyist is someone we should be warned about then let us know his name and number. In the end it was a good reminder to all of us to be careful and know the limits ... All limits.  

All we have is what we have heard from the OP and that is confusing and raises the distinct possibility that what she told him simply is not what happened.  Without better information, which we don't have and may never have, anything else is speculation at this point.

And you're here WK'ing a provider based on her account of what happened. Are you a man or a spider that was nesting in the corner of the room they were in at the time? I think your intentions are good here but I also think you are thinking through the little head & have fallen for a manipulation hook, line, & sinker. When's your next appt with her? Got a clue yet?

Who better understands having sex with a drunk than you?  

issed that you would even start this topic. This is just awful gossip and hearsay.
No names or further details make this story more about you being a gossip .... Dare I say white knight ... than providing real helpful information.  

just another post with no names mentioned.   What good comes out of these kinds of posts?   If people are not going to give names on a thread like this one or the next one ranting about a NSNC, keep it between yourself and the other person.

. . . but as an observation, I've noticed if the woman is drunk (not drugged), she is helpless.  If the guy is drunk, that's no excuse.

Does THIS get it through your skulls what we're talking about....?

It's too bad the thought of shame and burden being taken off the victim and put onto the perpetrator is such a bizarre thought...  
You know another way to fight rape culture and misogyny? Female camaraderie, stay safe hon.

-- Modified on 5/27/2013 7:28:58 PM

I had many blackouts as a foolish young man. I can remember times when I awoke the next day and staggered out to make sure my car was parked where it was supposed to be. It was always parked just fine.