For girls;  A LEO can lie legally.  Asking if a man is LE or stating in ads that the client agrees that he is not a LEO is less than worthless so lets quash this myth.  Yes, a cop can touch.  Thinking a cop can't touch is also a myth  The best strategy is to never discuss money before the act.  You may want to state basic prices in your ads but never discuss money in person before the performance.  After the performance ask for a "loan".  The risk is that you may be stiffed (pardon the pun) on occasion but this is far better than being arrested.  The great majority of hobbyists are honorable and honest.  For those that are not, get the word out to your friends.  They will not be able to get a provider.  Revenge is a dish best served cold.  

For boys;  Did you read what I just told the girls??????  Bear in mind that I doubt a female LEO would ever allow a touch so if you get a look or feel of the goods you are going to be OK.  Don't worry about price, sure you might have to pay a little more than you wanted, or even come up short, but after the fact you will know, and if the girl is worth it you can make it up next time.

For EVERYONE;  Become a regular.  Top performance on the part of providers and gentlemanly behavior on the part of hobbyists insures repeat encounters and greatly lessens the amount of contact with unknown strangers, and MOST IMPORTANTLY!!!!!!!!!  the fifth amendment to the US Constitution guarantees your right to remain silent.  Take advantage of it.  Do not try to outsmart the cops.  They are not trying to help you!  They will not ask exculpatory questions, they are just trying to pin you down.   Give them your name, give them your ID, and then just shut the fuck up and demand to speak to your lawyer.

END OF MESSAGE

please look for the "contribution" on the sites and do not ask what the "rates" are.  Maybe we need a weekly Schill thread, a weekly photo thread and a weekly mini tutorial on how to hobby thread.  

I do not ad on bp... only TER and P411.   It seems only the TER folks end up asking for "rates".  I am new and regularly redirect folks to the websites in emails and then when some men are here with me, I just throw up my hands and say "that is up to you, I hope you read the info on the sites, and it is always to your discretion."

I do whitelist every chance I get and OK every chance I get to help everyone.  This is a good practice.  If all the upstanding men all have a long whitelist and OK list behind their handles what a wonderful world and how many hours of tedium, worry and headache it would save us all.
 

I've made my own set of "rules" to keep from getting caught, and while I've had a number of near misses over the years, I'm 25+ years into this without any police-intervention in my quests quell my testicular-demons...  But bragging about that wasn't my main reason for inseminating this thread controversy...

What I'd like to know is has ANY of this actually been tested in court? Do we have any case-study that shows an putting an amount in an envelope and leaving it on the dresser actually gets a guy off the hook for solicitation??

Do we know for a fact that an all this theory about "don't mention the donation, look on the website for rates, pay exactly what is mentioned on the website and don't negotiate any extra services at the date" really has ANY FUCKING EFFECT on the legalities of the situation if a sting-team has set you up, or if your room is under surveillance from a room full of donut-munchers next door, or if hotel-staff has alerted the task-force that 50 guys have come and gone from the same lady's room every like clockwork over the past three days?? Personally I think this is a bunch of old-whores-tales and don't/won't mean shit if there actually is any LE interest in what's being done behind closed hotel-doors!

What I think is this has been a long standing strategy of the provider-community to keep the clients paying the rate without questioning/negotiating and a tactic to deflect any unfitting of services by the client by offering more cash in person to tempt a lady into services beyond the standard-offerings...  But what do I know? I've ply fucked a couple thousand girls in every way, shape and form with every imaginable variable of circumstances, for 25+ years without EVER giving verification information, and NEVER putting any money in a stupid envelope! I've negotiate for better services, extended time, overnight stays and anything else you can imagine in real-time, in person, cash-in-hand, and NEVER had a girl refuse to take it! (However, one thing I've never done is negotiate a lower rate with a girl for services, that's just a personal boundary of mine, as long as she holds up her end, I won't compromise on what she asked for if she won't compromise on what I'm asking for in exchange)...

-- Modified on 6/23/2013 7:50:46 PM

Fair question to want evidence and I would love to see it too. That said, the best evidence for certain strategies is right there in the news stories about stings. What do the cops always try to do? Get the mark to agree to sex for money over email and then again in person. Once they have that, they bust, but not until. It makes sense that evidence of such an agreement would make it slam dunk for a jury or judge, and that absence of such evidence makes it harder to make the case. More defenses are possible. But does LE let people go, do prosecutors decline to charge, or do juries acquit? I would love to see numbers as well.

Also, when arrests are made, names (and sometimes mug shot photos) are published prior to any convictions or plea agreements.

DJ, the whole envelope thing is for the providers protection, not for the client.  It negates the need for her to discuss money.  Of course I should have mentioned to also only see women with reviews.

I have always understood that if you agree to meet, there's money in the room, and you end up messing around with the person, then most juries are probably going to assume you are guilty.  

Check out some of the myths linked in the site below. These "myth lists" are fairly common on defense attorney sites all over the world. Of course, they are trying to make you think about getting a lawyer, but they are still helpful when looking at what actually constitutes prostitution.   If everyone took this information to heart I think most of us would be even more cautious than we already are.

About the main topic here I just have a few comments:
1. Yes, LE can lie, so asking if someone is LE is pointless.
2. LE might use a confidential informant anyway (CI), with a bug on them, and just have the officer waiting outside as back up. A CI can lie, have sex with you, break the law, and pretty much do anything a civilian would do. Although I do think it's pretty unlikely that most would go as far as actually having sex with someone. I'm sure they would just get you to mention something about condoms and then arrest you.
3. Even though hotels are a public place, and are therefore judged more harshly than a private residence, as long as neither of you is an undercover officer or CI they are pretty safe. Most upscale hotels will simply ask you to leave if they suspect something, since having the police swarm the building and arrest someone for prostitution isn't great for business. It's not like they can prove much anyway-- as someone on here so eloquently put it the other week,  "they aren't going to bust in and arrest you two for making monkey noises behind closed doors."

And just like I suspected, most of the so called "etiquette" that is the provider-enforced standards-of-practice really are just useless old-whores-tales based on superstitions and uneducated guesses...

I remember back in the day when hookers were on every corner of Lake Street, there were always cop-decoy ladies out there too, but they were so ridiculously easy to spot! Lady-cops still look like "cops" even when they're wearing a tube top and cheap high heals...  Also they don't reek of "bad lifestyles choices and addictions" when you get up close, so they were easy to avoid.  I have to believe the same is true for backapage girls, I'm always suspicious if the ad is too well done. If most of the words are spelled correctly and the sentence structure sound like it was written my someone educated, then it's probably a cop that wrote it. But then it's an also an advantage to me that I only like the young ones, because when they say "putting myself thorough school" in their ad, they probably mean cosotology-school! (Add that one to the list of "myths", college student by day, escort by night.... RARELY is that ever actually true either!)

Thank you to the beautiful Casey Case for the informative link and thoughtful analysis.

was trained by a great provider and she showed me quite a few reviews that were likely done by LE.  LE can mimmick reviews and can stay under the radar ... for not all the providers know everyones handle... I don't know everyones handle!  Actually as references usually look up the previous client by name and email, not TER handle.  So reviews are of less help in the safety dept. but of great help in the appeal for men to know what they might get something they are looking for dept.  

Whitelists I do go by and then I dig into the provider who gave the whitelist.  If I see she is reputable and there are 2-3 or more reputable recent whitelists then it is a breeze.  That is what is beautiful in P411 is that most clients have several OK's and who you've seen as clearly identifiable on 411... no handle confusion!   And most providers have given dozens of OK's and so if someone has 3+ then there is no reason to worry that they are LE.  On TER we have fewer people taking advantage of the whitelist, fewer clients asking for it.  But the clients who have an arsenal of whitelists and OK's...  the rule of thumb is at least 2 or 3 from reputable sources and you're great!  No worries.  

Until then it is like going hunting for references and being at the mercy of good record keeping of a provider that you've hopefully seen relatively recently that is at the email and reasonably timely in her response.  If she's on vacation or a family emergency then it can really take a while.  If she only lists a phone number... well, who wants to call a potential LE #.  I don't want to leave a message to be called on my hobby phone... on referrals the only way to go is by emailing and it is the most trustworthy way for recordkeeping... otherwise we are working on memory of how many common names that can be misfiled in the memory bank on a busy day?  No way.

On TER It makes no sense for me to see 10+ reviews and a goose egg for whitelists?  I shake my head every time.  Or dated/aged whitelists.  I see this every day.   In P411 there is an incentive to give OK's and an incentive to receive OK's by the site itself with discounts, etc. and 99+% of the time it is not abused.  On TER we see incentivized reviews for the men so we see lots of review activity in turn and I am not sure how well those are policed by the provider, if at all.  

As a matter of fact someone could probably write a fake review for me and I couldn't be certain it wasn't a client!  I may not know the handle... they can mimmick the others... and I wouldn't necessarily know who exactly that LE decoy is or isn't.  And LE does this! (they can be obvious... but I can't count on that).  But LE would have a harder time whitelisting themselves, though this is possible it is a bit of a challenge and backpage is an easier target... still, the risk is not worth it anyhow.  On 411 in Colorado we say a rare departure with providers OK'ing over coffee.  Crying out loud.  But I know Portia, Whitney, Trin, MelissaGFE, Francesca, Jillian, Poppy, and any of us others with a stellar rep, and for the masseuses!  Yes, for more of them to whitelist.  I hardly find masseuses doing this at all.  Why not?  Are they more lax?  I hardly get reference requests from masseuses and mostly from FS but I hear massage is very popular in the area.  Not all of the pieces are adding up for me.  How are they (masseuses) staying safe?  Maybe they are banking on being less appealing to LE due to being less high touch?  Again, being lax seems so dangerous.  If I were LE I'd go after plain "massage"... if they are lax.  But it is good LE isn't.  I don't want anyone to get hurt... but I am afraid one day they'll go after one of our sweet massage gals and since some of them don't screen... well, I don't understand why they don't.  Maybe they know something I don't.  

So, I wonder how to create a safer culture here while reducing the hassle and headache for those of us who are adamant in being as safe as possible?  The only way I see it is with more whitelisitng and more P411 ok's!  

411 keeps OK's honest and if anyone gives/recieves an OK without provider service being rendered it results in a permanent ban and with a employment check and valid ID someone cant just rejoin after a ban.  I am not sure TER needs to incentivize anything for whitelisting since they don't check for ID and have not secondary layer... but that it simply makes sense as a culture for the trusted providers with good reputations to start giving them to those who are simply safe, good, clean and respectful clients that are clearly not LE.  

If someone writes 100 reviews... I do not think I am "safe".  If someone has 3+ well reputed and relatively recent whitelists I sigh with relief.  It isn't reviews that secure safety on 411.  411 is for safety; TER is for sifting through reviews for men to be able to pick and choose their favorite or probable fantasy.  TER could be about both safety and probability of pleasure if we utilize the whitelist correctly.

 
I've totally rambled.  Do forgive me.  I fractured my toe so I have too much down time on my hands today

I am sending it allot of love.  Dropped a tripod on it; square on it     wont share a pic... it's a blue toe    sad and kinda gross and I have a foot fetish... so I am just being tender, ice, love, elevation, bandage.  I need my toe to feel pleasure again.   I love toes.  I love feet.  Mine need love too!

...how incredibly sexy logic and literacy can be.  Not only am I smarter now, I'm horny too.  Thank you Casey.

I think you have a good idea about providers being incented by TER in some fashion for whitelisting someone.  Then maybe when a guy sees a provider many times, always treats her well and with respect, and has what he thinks is a good rapport with her, she will have no problem whitelisting the guy if he asks her politely.  

Then there are those thoughtful ladies who will whitelist someone without his even needing to ask!    And that's good for everyone, as you pointed out, whitelisting not only helps the hobbyist but is a big help to other providers.

As for why many of the FBSM providers (non-FS) don't require references... that's a big mystery to me also.  I've chewed out (politely but firmly) a few providers I met who don't do any screening at all.  Even if they're not worried about LE, I told them there's a lot of not-so-nice people out there, and they need to screen.

Well, if you you do any of those things and that is the time LE busts in then they have you dead to rights.  If you haven't done those things, it makes it harder for them to prove anything even though they may well still take you in.

The whole system is built like a pyramid, once one leg collapses the whole pyramid has the potential to collapse.

Let me address some misconceptions:

P411 claims to actually destroy client info once verified. If such is the case it would be easy for anyone to start a new account if banned. All they have to do is change some of the identifying information. I doubt P411 employees are going to remember all clients and their employers. What if a client changes jobs? He can use his new employer information.

P411 requires employer or provider references but not both unless a client chooses to provide all of it.

Even if P411 saves verification information like I suspect they do it would still be easy for a banned client to signup again. Most names are common, he can change his employer and use his new employer information and change some identity information along with a new email and phone number. I don't see how P411 would figure a banned client is trying to signup again.

A rogue provider can give a reference to P411 for a client under a different name. P411 wouldn't know unless a future provider places a complaint but then again a banned client signing up again doesn't have to see providers he has seen in the past or use them as references.

Now the LE issue:

LE is well aware of the existence P411 and is increasingly beginning to target them. It worked in Colorado recently and in Wisconsin last year.

All LE has to do is get one provider to turn over control of her P411 account to them and every client in the system is vulnerable. Potential clients would never know that LE is in fact controlling an account unless info is leaking through back channels.

LE can also setup a fake, non existent provider account on P411. This possibility is difficult and would take some time but not impossible.

The same works in reverse.

All LE has to do is get a client to turn over control of their client P411 account to them and many unsuspecting providers would be vulnerable to getting busted. In fact, the more okays a client has, the more vulnerable a provider is because she might become to trusting of his okays without knowing that LE is behind the account. If LE has control of an account with several okays, it is much easier for them to bust a provider. The fact that a client has so many okays on P411 might mean he is fine from a personal safety point of view but it really doesn't that he is not LE. P411 is not fool proof like many believe it is.

As far as all the discounts and all the other benefits go. Have you visited P411 lately to see how many providers offer discounts on P411 anymore? The answer is almost zero. Out of 100+ providers listed in the Minneapolis area, I think four offer discounts.

Hobby City,  you are right 411 isn't full proof and nothing is.  The question is what is the most reliable way to prevent problems from happening!?   They got 4 providers in CO to ok LE for a coffee. That is preposterous.  Could MN ladies be that foolish? I am new... but to be that worried, if we were all worried that 4 well reviewed MN ladies will OK men for a $100 coffee... we'd shut ourselves down.  

Please enlighten me on a gent having several valid 411 OK's and being more of a problem due to too much trust.  

You say: "The fact that a client has so many okays on P411 might mean he is fine from a personal safety point of view but it really doesn't that he is not LE."    

If that is the case, and he revealed himself... would'nt he lose his job?  Like an LE who buys and uses cocaine personally for years.... then busts the dealer.  I don't think that works.   I think he loses his job.

That's a good list in the link, but it makes no distinction between really obscure LE techniques and the every day. I googled on MN arrests for prostitution and read all the news stories in the first ten pages of results. Every story was one of two things:

1) An LE sting based on Backpage where they created fake ads to entice clients or responded to ads drawing providers to an outcall at a hotel.  

2) stings set up in response to complaints from neighbors or customers that a given location was being used for prostitution.  

The most involved local sting I found was an escort whose business name was given to the cops by the caller. LE set up a sting via her web site, which they said took them months. Lot of work for one misdemeanor charge (it was out of her apartment), so I can see why this isn't done more except in reponse to complaints.  

Not that the other stuff isn't important but it seems to make sense to prioritize protection from the most common tactics. Discretion, screen, then screen the screeners. And its probably only a matter of time before agencies here start setting up stings based on P411 or TER in addition to Backpage, if they aren't doing so already.

I don't know why they don't either but I'm hoping they're screening & just not letting you know how they're doing it. That's another way I've been operating for over 10 yrs on top of the usual ways.
 No one method is foolproof though

Well, I don't know the New American and how it leans, but I came across a link to it a few minutes ago related to your right to remain silent.

"Guilty or not, suspects in the United States no longer have the right to remain silent. If they remain silent, moreover, that silence will now be interpreted as guilt and will indeed — despite what you see on television court and cop dramas — be used against that person in a court of law. Even, in fact, the highest court in the land."

I am not sure if it is just hype to grab your attention (it got me to read it), but I thought I would share it any.

-- Modified on 6/25/2013 7:39:07 PM

If lLE takes over a clients account LE then effectively acquires all the OKs the client had.  It doesn't mean a cop has earned those OKs by having sessions with escorts.  So, LE can now use that account to set up appointments with and bust providers.

-- Modified on 6/25/2013 8:39:33 PM

It's an overstatement. I posted a link to a Slate article on the same topic in a discussion on the legal thread. The Court ruled that pre-arrest refusal to speak could be used as evidence against a subject, unless the person, on his own, invoked his right to remain silent. Post-arrest silence still can't be used against you. Essentially, prior to being Mirandized, it's on you to say "I'm not answering any questions without a lawyer." Which you should be doing anyway.

END OF MESSAGE

I like what this responder says:

 
What the decision says is that, in order to "take the Fifth", you must expressly *state* that you are taking the Fifth. Otherwise anything you say can and will be used against you... and silence is a statement, just as zero is a number.

I DO mostly agree it's a ridiculous decision, but it's not accurate to claim your right to not incriminate yourself has been removed.

As usual, it's been narrowed juuuuuust a teeensy bit more from what it was previously.

This is not a stabbing death, it's the death of a thousand cuts.

Be angry, but be yelling about the right things that are being done.

So are you saying that escorts can't be educated or spell correctly?  

Often when I see an ad with very poor spelling or grammar, I think of pimps or agencies.

As for pimps and agencies: a clear indicator that an agency is posting is that they use words like "busty" in their wording, which girls typically don't use in describing themselves.

Pimps, or "boyfriends" pimping their girls, you can tell by the look on the girls face when her picture is being taken... Also pimps tend to sprawl the girl out on the hood of their car when taking the pic...

Two of them use the same pics for any girl they have regardless of looks, use the same 4 or 5 phone numbers for different girls and often mix up the pictures and names lol such as the blonde named amber has been called Ellen or something else.  
Not to mention the misspellings and grammar  

Thank you for clearing that up because there are many of us who are intelligent and educated .. Some of who are using this forum regularly

cxoxo