Just a heads up.  Orgs are cracking down on stealthing.   Expect to get BL'd not only by the girl, but by the org as well.  One booker told me that he's considering letting other bookers know too.  If that happens, they won't be able to get a booking with a sheep, much less a Kgirl.  

Is this actually prevalent in SoCal?  

of rape in Switzerland a couple of years ago.  I don't know if there have been any convictions in the US.  

If it's what I think it is (stealthily taking off condom to fuck BB), throw the fucking book at the rapist.

I have ZERO problem what two consenting adults do together, (even if I don't understand some of the kinkier acts), but the key word is CONSENT. Stealthing is indeed akin to rape as there is no consent of the part of the lady.

I’ve never understood what kind of sociopathic or psychopathic asshole actually thinks this is even close to OK. Much less funny. I’ve seen posts from some of these guys laughing about what a great joke it is. I’ve seen others who just think these women are whores so they can just use them how they want.  
Neither one of these perspectives sounds like that of a rational human being to me.
As you say later in the thread, it’s simply rape.
It is the same as that guy who beat up Betty/Ran (one of the most beautiful - but shy and therefore ymmv - kgirls I’ve ever seen). He got back on the forum and tried to tell us how he’d done us all a favor. Since now Betty knew how to treat a man. He was clearly a psychopath.  
Since the guys on the boards could see who he’d been seeing and there was overlap, we were able to identify him. Don’t know what happened to him. But he disappeared.

Periodically we'd hear that occurring in the pre-dark days of TER out of LA (and BA to some extent). Went hand in hand with all the pressuring for additional services (such as BBFS) or just rougher versions of a provided service (BJ turning into forced DT and the like). We used to see the girls moving from west to east to escape that crap.

The group of guys who pressured girls for BBFS and anal had an entire handbook of techniques they used (somebody sent it to me by mistake once). It included how to bring pressure as a team to make the girl feel like she had to do it to stay in business. And somehow they thought this was both reasonable and OK.

It IS rape.

is back in session, there is a pending bill to be debated and passed to make this a criminal offense as a form of "sexual abuse."  I agree with you and others here that It should be felony rape.  

Orgs should have been cracking down on stealthing and reporting to other friendly orgs since the beginning. I have felt they haven't done enough to protect the Kgirls. That booker should tell other bookers if he cares about the Kgirls.
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BL won't be enough if an org allows HX members or other forms of verification besides references from trusted bookers. It's too easy to get approved these days with certain orgs. I heard stories from Kgirls of guys who did things like they didn't care about BL. It just seems very unfair for the Kgirls.
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You may want to tell the Kgirls to always check for condom if they want to protect themselves.
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How can stealthing be proven in the court of law? Is this another case of he says she says?

In the bay, korgs and corgs have a mutual wall of shame - it's pictures of 'mongers' who were scum.

No means no.  These kgirls are human beings who deserve respect and consideration.  No means no.

we should probably say aniyo/ani means no

that thinks of the Kgirls as subhuman because they are selling sex.   This is the irony of this business.  They look down on Kgirls for selling sex, and think they are superior because they are buying sex.  Its all the same in the eyes of the law.  They are also disrespectful because they are envious of how much many these girls make.   The majority make more than their average customer does.  They tend to be rough and abusive and often injure the girls during the session.  I have been cancelled the same day on many occasions because an appointment a girl had before me got a little rough and she could not continue working that day.  The bookers will just tell you that she had a headache or got food poisoning and will be back the next day.  If you've been seeing a girl long enough, they will usually tell you what REALLY happened. This is but one example of the "dark side" of this business.

There are plenty of K-Girls willing to do BBFS - there seems to be a significant increase in this arena. A few even do so without charging extra - most of the ladies at The Palace for example.

Of course that is the case but I suspect just getting BB is not the point for some (a lot?) of these guys.

this past week, two in LA, one in OC, allegedly involving younger customers under 30.  These guys may force the orgs to require an ID from every customer to verify they're over a certain age, which means an age cut-off might be coming.  

Age cutoff and mandatory ID because of three cases with "alleged" young mongers? Lmao, sure.  

get new phone numbers and get re-screened, then come back two or three months later.   Its not just three cases.  Its been almost a weekly occurrence since the beginning of this year.  They are only cracking down because some of the top girls are threatening to leave if the bookers don't keep these guys out.  With all the BBFS girls, its beyond me why guys want to purposely harass CFS girls.  They have to know its not going to end well, and many will tell them to leave before they finish.  Walking out with a hard-on and blue balls is NOT the way you want a session to end.  

If the monger’s offense is considered egregious by the org, black listing is the least of his worries.  
I’m not going to say more than that on a public forum.
If you aren’t careful, it can get rough out there.

Really? Because last year we had an armed robbery in the bay, you probably heard of that. The two scum and their social media accounts accounts were quickly identified and put up on wall of shame, but that's about it. I don't think it can get any egregiously worse than two guys with guns holding up a girl and another monger with her roommate.

Close to the booker? Why would I want to be close to some scum who is willing to lie for a green piece of paper? Shit, I'd want to be as far as possible from such people. Unless if I'm tracking them or something, lol.  

and not really worth the bandwidth to respond, but I'm not doing anything else right now, so I'll give it a whirl.  Your attitude serves as a glowing example why some millennials have shitty Kgirl sessions in the high percentage that you claim, while the veterans here enjoy nearly 95%+ of the girls they see, at least the ones I know do.  

I already said I don't tell newbies to take my road. They can choose whatever they want. I never denied you get bookers "perks" by brown nosing them. That actually was my whole argument from the get go. Appeasing bookers and not writing truthful subpar reviews because that would get people off the good terms. Which is against the TER policies.  

if you are lazy and using your TER handle to make appointments.  I have written hundreds of reviews and no booker ever called me out on content because they don't know who CDL is.  There is no connection between my real persona and CDL.  

It amazes me the donation difference by locale. Bay Area is almost always 220 hour. LA and OC vary between 240-300 hour. Vegas is always 300 hour. Seattle is 400. Same ladies, same routine, same great service. Makes no sense that the orgs don’t standardize their donations.

$240, but yeah, prices there have been stable for years.  Its a result of supply exceeding demand, IMO.  FOTB girls can't get into SoCal straight from Korea anymore, so they go to the BA first, work for awhile, network with the other girls to get introductions to SoCal orgs.  I have given an org owner's phone number to a few girls in the BA who eventually were able to get a spot.  They make more in SoCal, so they would rather go there, but slots are scarce because the top girls in SoCal don't tour, so their slots never open up for new girls to come in.  My Kgirlfriend is a permanent SoCal Kgirl, and as long as she doesn't take more than 5-6 days off for her monthly period, (she also gets Sundays off and every other Saturday if she wants it, which usually depends on whatever my plans are for the weekend), she never has to move her personal stuff out of the incall.  That's her working place, permanently, as long as she wants it. However, if she wants to take a two week vacation, which she did during the corona lockdown (one week for her period and one week in Hawaii with me), then she has to clear out her personal things so they can put a touring girl in the room for two weeks, and then move her own stuff back in when she's ready to work again.  

Thanks CDL

Or at least I hope they don't do it here on a public forum. Some things really don't need to be aired in public, the inner workings of how an illegal operation handles their money is most definitely VERY high on that list.

That's a little too much detail for a public forum.  

My comment on feedback pressure was clarifying why I "denigrate" bookers, not implying you are getting pressured. I consider anyone who is ok to manipulate customer feedback scum.  

Sorry, gambler, but the orgs think it's ok to do bullshit reviews, pressure monger feedback and do false advertising, yet we must keep quiet on a public forum about something most girls will tell you anyway? As Mr Pink would say, fuck all that.  

It is one thing to talk about what is clearly public information. It is another to start disclosing private information. It doesn't matter if some provider told you, or even a booker or agency owner. We're all supposed to have some level of judgment about discretion and respecting privacy.

What exactly did I post that wasn't public?

I was seeing regularly a few years ago at $400.  She went to school in the US so her English was perfect, and so the witty banter was part of the attraction for me. Just before TER went dark in the US, she raised her rate to $500.  I don't grouse about prices.  Its bad form,  but I cut back on frequency thinking she might get the hint.  Not only did she NOT get the hint, about a year ago, she went up to $600.  Now we're at what I pay for two hours with most Kgirls, so I just stopped going.  Shortly after, she took down her website, so I assume she got a civvie job and gave up hooking.  This is an example at how substantial price changes can chase customers away.  Its better to do it in small increments, like many of the Korgs do.  $10 at a time is easy to take for just about all of us.

I think she started at $250, she had gone to $300 by the time I saw her and I just KNEW she'd be a star. She left Texas a couple of months after I saw her and started raising her rates incrementally, but by $100 hr at a time,  the last I heard she was in NYC getting $900 hr and had guys lining up around the block to see her.  

It helps if the girl is in porn star biz or even popular Instagram "model". Her prices skyrocket.  

As to the split, I had a very popular KGirl in WLA tell me a year ago that the booker only received a fee on my first visit. The way it came up was she gave me her direct number (I don't remember why) and I asked her if she would prefer that I schedule directly with her going forward thinking that she could avoid the house/booker fee. When I asked her directly she said that her deal was that she only split with her booker on the client's first visit. Is that consistent with your understanding?

"Sorry, gambler, but the orgs think it's ok to do bullshit reviews, pressure monger feedback and do false advertising, yet we must keep quiet on a public forum about something most girls will tell you anyway?"

Oh OK. Well, I agree then. No matter what, I will keep real privacy info out the forum and likely out of pms as well. I don't think what a girl cut is at some org is anything private.  
And I will even point out when others go too far.  

but then I read what information you put in your actual post and I found nothing to get worked up about. I think it is helpful for mongers to have some kind of idea about what the split is so they can make their own decisions about tipping.  

However, your characterization of "super-VIP mongers" covering "housing" expenses is misleading. Many girls at some point decide they want to set up their own incall.  They will work one room and have a succession of touring girls in the other room just like any other org.  Their only variable "service" expenses then becomes the booker fees, because they are on a per-hour-booked basis, and the "consumables" (condoms, lube, shower supplies, mouthwash, wet-wipes and of course the ubiquitous petite bottles of water that let everyone in the apartment complex know you just saw a hooker).  Their housing expense becomes a fixed expense, and the volume the two girls do determines the profitability of the operation.  

The risk is fucking HUGE. The co-signer can face charges even more serious than the hooker herself, (this is not unique to K-Girls) a person co-signing a lease for a hooker can and have been charged with "operating a house of prostitution" a FELONY which is much more serious that a simple charge of solicitation

depending on the jurisdiction.  One LA Kgirl that runs her own incall has been busted twice in the last 3 years and her co-signer was never even charged.  There have been three in OC in the past 5 years that I know of where the co-signers were initially charged, but then the charges were dismissed.  If you become the PARTNER of a Kgirl, then I agree that everything you said applies to THAT situation.  Being a partner is a lot more exposure than being just a co-signer on a lease.  Compare it to co-signing on a lease for a friend, and he is later busted for growing marijuana on the premises.  As a co-signer who had no knowledge of the criminal activities and had never even been to the apartment, do you think they could make charges stick merely because he co-signed a lease for a place where he did not live. That's a stretch in my book.  Same idea.  

Not for being "partners" but just for having his name on the lease. It happens. Don't fool yourself that it doesn't. In one case in Atlanta the guy was a TER member, reviewer and frequent board participant, I guess his claims "I didn't know" rang hollow as a defense.

Been a lawyer for 40 years, recently retired. Never did criminal cases but I know a bit about the process/system, and I’m with GaG on this one. Historically prosecutors, especially sex crimes and trafficking units, view the girls as victims. Their goal is to swim upstream and try to get the wealthy and successful guys if they can. They’ll do whatever it takes to get the girl, who they see as the victim, to turn on the guy(s) and testify that the guy(s) knew what her business was and that she couldn’t have obtained her ‘place of business’ without the guy’s help/credit, and that she paid him a monthly fee for the help/credit. That makes at least an aiding and abetting charge if not a pandering charge or worse. They want the publicity of taking down the guy(s). If the girl is a legal resident she’ll get a misdemeanor at most; if she’s illegal they deport her. It’ll be a costly and embarrassing situation for the guy. Whether he goes to jail or prison I can’t say, but he’ll regret his decision to help her out. I would NEVER recommend that anyone do this.

Chiming in with an East Coast perspective: the same as GaG and dcgrind.
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There was a NYC blogger who did advertising and other work for many AMPs, RMPs, and indies in NYC. He had a lot of inside info. Because he was on such good terms with so many in the industry, he was always being asked to help with getting a new place set up (i.e., sign or co-sign a lease). Some contributors to the blog would mention that had also been approached by their latest ATFs about participating in a new venture.  
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The blogger's message was clear: STAY AWAY! or even RUN AWAY! Do not get involved with that end of the business! No good will come of it!  I don't remember any specific personal stories. The occasional newspaper story about a recent bust would mention names but nobody that I would know or recognize. The news stories do not report, "The lessee was just some poor sap who got taken in by dozens of beautiful girls but now he's going to jail."  
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At least in NYC, the news accounts make it clear that LE investigations can be ongoing for months and months, with monitoring of "foot" traffic (i.e., penis traffic) and the subpoenaing of all sorts of phone and financial records. The newspaper stories also make it clear that LE likes to go after the EASY cases. A record of hourly visits, a paper trail of signed leases, bank account activities, monthly rent payments, invoices for renovations (table shower plumbing, dimmer switches in the rooms, etc.) is a lot easier to prosecute than a pretty girl with a suitcase full of sparkly lingerie and $2000 in cash in her pocket.
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(NOTE: The NYC blogger ended up going to prison for an unrelated white collar offense.)

that there are guys in prison for signing a lease, but I also know that in most immigrant communities, there are professional lease co-signers, and the cases here that involved professional co-signing services, regardless of what the criminal activity is by the principal leaseholder that happened on the premises (whether its prostitution, drug dealing, gambling rooms, or whatever else, LE has not been able to get convictions on these kinds of co-signing ervices.   As a co-signer, they are only responsible for the financial obligation on the lease, not whatever the person who is the principal does for a living.  I think we are talking about apples and oranges.  You're talking about a guy who says he's not involved (wink, wink), but meanwhile he has a history with the hooker that has a digital  or paper trail.  I agree, these situations are going to result in guys going down.  In LA the girls go to Korean co-signing services, and they represent they will be living there (and sometimes they do).  The co-signer never even sees the place, and fee payments are direct-deposited into the co-signer's business account. The gov has not been successful in criminal charges against these kinds of services.  Sorry.  It is what it is.  Please stop trying to argue something other than what I said. When it comes to a monger doing this, I completely agreed with your admonition to  "DON'T DO IT", even in caps like you did. If I came off a little flippant, then my apologies, but I disclosed I have passed on every opportunity to participate in these kinds of deals.  Yes, you can go to jail if there's a bust.  I will also add that when the Kgirl flips on you, you're going to be surprised she doesn't really love you like  you thought.   Better?

-- Modified on 6/17/2020 3:49:50 PM

to your considerable  education and background, I must  disagree with your blanket statement that . . . .

California has become so fucked up in the past 20 years. I practiced there my entire career. It has been sad to watch, so sad for me that I moved to Vegas after retiring. Given the recency of the cases you’ve described I’m not surprised by the outcomes as the workers were facing misdemeanor prostitution charges. The ladies were very lucky not to be in a Federal Court for trafficking, tax, or related charges because they’d more likely have faced the scenario I described.

...didn't 'grandfather' you.  That means she didn't give a shit about your sorry ass.  She obviously didn't care if you kept seeing her or not.  Providers who value their customers will always see them at the same rate even if they raise their advertised rates.

haunt all of us.  Many times I have put off seeing a Kgirl I wanted to see because I had promised other girls I would visit, and then when I'm ready to see her, she leaves a day or two before I was going to book.  Usually they come back, but sometimes they don't.

The CDL from a few hours ago, or the CDL from 4 months ago?

California LE is prohibited from turning over illegals, even ones that have committed crimes, to ICE, is why deportation is off the table except for repeat offenders, since the states have no authority to deport.    I don't mind it in the case of our Kgirls, which I'm aware is a self serving statement, but when it comes to other crimes, mostly property crimes, where there are innocent victims, It bothers me a lot.   I agree about California going down the tubes.  If my business wasn't firmly established here, I would leave, too.

The one that usually has no problem with reading comprehension, or the one that posts during happy hour? Lol

And this is purely supposition on my part but seems like it might tie in with other subthreads in the discussions on the forum.

The jail threat is the most obvious downside, but having it be just another form of Kgirl hustle is a bit more subtle, and guys will fall for it.  There might even be some that are so enamored they would take the attitude that they would go to jail for the girl's love.  The problem is, when they don't visit you in the slammer, its easy to figure out how much "love" is involved.  Lol

Right now it's YOU that is starting to sound like BobFromStateFarm.  

first response to your comments.  If you look back at my original post on this matter, I mentioned professional co-signers FIRST.  I went on to talk about mongers being co-signers and maybe it was a little too lighthearted.  I already apologized for that, too.  Can I send you a pint of my blood or something to make it up to you?   Lol

At least bring me gimchi with a file in it and tell my your will wait

but if you want to send me a bottle of really good tequila, yeah I'm fine with that. lol

Which is why I came down so hard on CDL making light of this, Stupid, lovelorn white guys enamored with a K-girl will do all sorts of things "for love"  

LOL -- you mean it's not only a problem if you do stupid with K-girls?  

I don't think anyone has accused me of being "emotionally mature" or disciplined, but I am smart enough not to put my name on illegal activities for the promise of free pussy or chump change, and yes, I have been approached too, but I have never been so desperate for either money or pussy to risk years in prison for it.

Stupidity does not discriminate.  It can infect anyone for any reason.  

TRUTH!

I referred to myself on a post in the last few days as a Model T, a knock on guys my age.  So don't get your panties in a bunch about THAT either.  Its just easier with younger guys because they fuck up more than older guys.  I know I did when I was young.  Its part of growing up and I enjoy watching it as much as I did living it.  There is a lot of humor in life.  MOST of my dissing is not meanspirited, just pointing out stupid shit that i think is humorous.  I just like to poke fun sometimes at guys that think they have life figured out by the time they are 30.  I think a lot of guys my age think that's funny, too, but I'm the guy who will say out loud what everyone else is thinking.  In case you haven't noticed, GaG is the same.  Tells it like it is, no ass-kissing or sugar-coating, although he's been so nice on this board lately sometimes I'm not sure its him.  

We didn't implicate you or any of the five girls you saw in 2017.  How is that not discreet?

There are some girls who can't take the heat so they get out of the kitchen. We all know some of the girls who couldn't take the volume and just quit. The lifestyle is pretty grueling.

and caused no trouble  for anyone.  What would have changed TWO months ago to make it a problem?  You're not making much sense.  Where do you see a problem with this post?  What about it offends you?  Honest feedback is always appreciated.  

she is one of a new breed of Kgirl that is completely independent, but they use a booker to source new customers.  Their regular customers book directly with the girl. The girl is working for herself, out of an apartment she leases herself, and the only thing she doesn't have is a steady supply of new customers that fill the void caused by attrition.  If you ask some of the LA bookers if they have any other girls that are not on the agency website, and you are well-established with the booker, you can get access to these UTR girls.  Most have been permanent fixtures in LA for at least 4 or 5 years, many much longer.  Was she alone or with a roommate.  Many of these kinds of girls work in a two bedroom apartment  where they also live.  They work in one bedroom and sleep in the other.  I haven't seem all of the UTR girls lately since they started working like this, so there may be some variations in the set up that I'm not aware of.  

Don't want to out her, but you saw her in early 2016. She's one of my top 5 all time KGirl experiences, and based on your review I think you might have liked her too. I don't know if she had a roommate or not when I saw her. I was her first appointment of the day (my favorite time to visit) and when I got there we quickly went to her room so I didn't see anyone. When I left she had fukked me into oblivion and I was dizzy so I lacked the ability to comprehend what I saw.

-- Modified on 6/19/2020 9:13:00 AM

I generally tip 20+% on the provider take.  
If a girl is good enough for me to consider a return, I tip her.  
Though I’ll probably tip if she just doesn’t play Dodge the Pickle. This is a topic I’ve already covered.  
My thought is that the girls don’t believe anything I might say about how great they are or how much I like them. Nor do the vast majority of them really care about gifts.
But, if I repeat with them and consistently tip without making a big deal out of it, they actually appreciate it.  
And at that point I find that they become more interested in who I am. And maybe in having more of a relationship with me. Though I limit that pretty carefully. Other than a good friendly connection, that’s just not what I’m in this for.
My ATF (and, yes, I’ve only had one) raised her rate once. And I paid her new rate and still tipped her the very first time.
She stopped and looked at me for a second and said: “Why does everybody else complain or want discount but you don’t?”
Walls between us began to drop a lot after that.  
I know this supports what you’ve been saying all along.
I just don’t understand why this isn’t obvious to everyone?

at the end of 2008, the standard break was 30 minutes.   A girl had time to do all of the cleanup and prep between appointments and then rest for 15 minutes before the next appointment.  In those days, I rarely saw a Kgirl,  even in the evening, who was tired.  Demand exploded from 2012 to  2014 and the bookers started pushing the girls to see more customers in a day so the break time was reduced to 15 minutes.  Then I believe it was booker M in LA around 2016 who first started scheduling ten minute breaks.  Now, I try not to schedule evening appointments, because the more mature (36-40 age) Kgirls that I prefer are sometimes starting to show fatigue for their last couple of appointments.  

Sounds about right. Do you then agree that anyone who is receiving favors from girls as a result of such deals (that you were approached about) should never even attempt a review of the girls he's getting favors from, as this effectively makes him part of the org and have conflict of interest?

Higher prices for everything in LV are due to the tourist nature of the economy (they certainly aren't due to the cost of living - you can book a hotel room by the month for far less than a comparable apt in the SF Bay Area). I don't have enough stick time in the LA/OC K-girl scene to comment on it, but I can tell you there's a lot more repeat business and feedback/interaction between the mongers up north (and more than one private network/site available for reviews and sharing notes) than in LV, where most of the clientele are either noobs from Des Moines who don't know any better or flush mongers who are there to spend money regardless and not especially price-sensitive. A lady who figures she's never going to see her client again is less likely to think providing the quality of service of one who depends on her regulars to pay the bills. That has been my observation - I do go to Vegas on occasion for business related purposes, but I would never consider traveling there for the purpose of having sex.