"Sorry, gambler, but the orgs think it's ok to do bullshit reviews, pressure monger feedback and do false advertising, yet we must keep quiet on a public forum about something most girls will tell you anyway?"
That was the statement I was responding to.Just a heads up. Orgs are cracking down on stealthing. Expect to get BL'd not only by the girl, but by the org as well. One booker told me that he's considering letting other bookers know too. If that happens, they won't be able to get a booking with a sheep, much less a Kgirl.
If you're doing this sleazy shit, you'd be wise to stop it if you want to keep hobbying in SoCal.
Is this actually prevalent in SoCal?
Stealthing is essentially rape
of rape in Switzerland a couple of years ago. I don't know if there have been any convictions in the US.
Since almost every agency now has girls offering BBFS, its even more stupid to try to get over on CFS girls. Many of the CFS girls don't take birth control. I think one or two paternity claims would slow down the guys that think this is cute.
-- Modified on 5/30/2020 5:18:32 PM
If it's what I think it is (stealthily taking off condom to fuck BB), throw the fucking book at the rapist.
BL at the spot from the org, and yeah put his pic (if they have one, usually they do even if you never sent them one) up on the wall of shame (in case you don't know, we have wall of shame in the bay area that is shared between orgs).
But maybe it means something else.
I have ZERO problem what two consenting adults do together, (even if I don't understand some of the kinkier acts), but the key word is CONSENT. Stealthing is indeed akin to rape as there is no consent of the part of the lady.
It IS rape.
Same if the girl asks you to come outside and you come inside while BBFS (one can argue that there is a possibility of miscommunication, but in such case I'm always on girl's side)
Zero tolerance for such bullshit. Some dudes even tried arguing with me that it's OK. Smh.
is back in session, there is a pending bill to be debated and passed to make this a criminal offense as a form of "sexual abuse." I agree with you and others here that It should be felony rape.
I was texted last week by a Kgirl I have know for a long time that a young guy tried this on her. She covered him up and he wanted DG, and started going, but pulled all the way out once, and then went back in. She said it didn't feel the same and so she looked around and saw that he had removed the cover. She threw him out and told the booker. Now he is finished at that org. The booker is deciding whether to tell other bookers about this guy. I have heard of this from a few others girls in the last few months, and its almost always the young guys.
Orgs should have been cracking down on stealthing and reporting to other friendly orgs since the beginning. I have felt they haven't done enough to protect the Kgirls. That booker should tell other bookers if he cares about the Kgirls.
.
BL won't be enough if an org allows HX members or other forms of verification besides references from trusted bookers. It's too easy to get approved these days with certain orgs. I heard stories from Kgirls of guys who did things like they didn't care about BL. It just seems very unfair for the Kgirls.
.
You may want to tell the Kgirls to always check for condom if they want to protect themselves.
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How can stealthing be proven in the court of law? Is this another case of he says she says?
In the bay, korgs and corgs have a mutual wall of shame - it's pictures of 'mongers' who were scum.
It's basically an alert to everyone that these are dangerous guys. Mostly ROBs, people are who super rough and so on.
This is basically a one step up from BL since all orgs use it. Something like this probably happens in other places too.
Korg connections go as far as NY, Dallas, Socal/Bay/Vegas and so on. Some NY agencies will take your Bay references.
So, stealthing can be put on the list. This goes more towards orgs attitude of what can be considered very bad. Unfortunately I dont think stealthing is that high up the list for them (yet). ROBs directly affect their biz, being rough affects the product quality, stealthing...unless the girl speaks up and is angry with them, it isn't a huge deal (yet).
I’ve never understood what kind of sociopathic or psychopathic asshole actually thinks this is even close to OK. Much less funny. I’ve seen posts from some of these guys laughing about what a great joke it is. I’ve seen others who just think these women are whores so they can just use them how they want.
Neither one of these perspectives sounds like that of a rational human being to me.
As you say later in the thread, it’s simply rape.
It is the same as that guy who beat up Betty/Ran (one of the most beautiful - but shy and therefore ymmv - kgirls I’ve ever seen). He got back on the forum and tried to tell us how he’d done us all a favor. Since now Betty knew how to treat a man. He was clearly a psychopath.
Since the guys on the boards could see who he’d been seeing and there was overlap, we were able to identify him. Don’t know what happened to him. But he disappeared.
that thinks of the Kgirls as subhuman because they are selling sex. This is the irony of this business. They look down on Kgirls for selling sex, and think they are superior because they are buying sex. Its all the same in the eyes of the law. They are also disrespectful because they are envious of how much many these girls make. The majority make more than their average customer does. They tend to be rough and abusive and often injure the girls during the session. I have been cancelled the same day on many occasions because an appointment a girl had before me got a little rough and she could not continue working that day. The bookers will just tell you that she had a headache or got food poisoning and will be back the next day. If you've been seeing a girl long enough, they will usually tell you what REALLY happened. This is but one example of the "dark side" of this business.
Periodically we'd hear that occurring in the pre-dark days of TER out of LA (and BA to some extent). Went hand in hand with all the pressuring for additional services (such as BBFS) or just rougher versions of a provided service (BJ turning into forced DT and the like). We used to see the girls moving from west to east to escape that crap.
Good to hear the orgs are taking a bit stronger stance on it now. Though the offer for the girls to come watch the sun come up rather than set is always there 
The group of guys who pressured girls for BBFS and anal had an entire handbook of techniques they used (somebody sent it to me by mistake once). It included how to bring pressure as a team to make the girl feel like she had to do it to stay in business. And somehow they thought this was both reasonable and OK.
No means no. These kgirls are human beings who deserve respect and consideration. No means no.
we should probably say aniyo/ani means no
There are plenty of K-Girls willing to do BBFS - there seems to be a significant increase in this arena. A few even do so without charging extra - most of the ladies at The Palace for example.
Asl the booker and they will let you know. See a gal a few times and she may let you. I have one that I have been seeing on and off since 2007 and she allows BBFS for me and I at least one other since this hobbyist is the one that told me to give it a shot after reading my review .
Respect these ladies.
Of course that is the case but I suspect just getting BB is not the point for some (a lot?) of these guys.
Just as rape is often not about the sex but more about dominance I suspect having a consensual BB session would not satisfy their needs. Those engaging in stealthing have a mental problem.
this past week, two in LA, one in OC, allegedly involving younger customers under 30. These guys may force the orgs to require an ID from every customer to verify they're over a certain age, which means an age cut-off might be coming.
Age cutoff and mandatory ID because of three cases with "alleged" young mongers? Lmao, sure.
How about just BLing those rapists, so it's a lesson? Whatever happened to that idea? Or does it only work with subpar reviews on TER ?
get new phone numbers and get re-screened, then come back two or three months later. Its not just three cases. Its been almost a weekly occurrence since the beginning of this year. They are only cracking down because some of the top girls are threatening to leave if the bookers don't keep these guys out. With all the BBFS girls, its beyond me why guys want to purposely harass CFS girls. They have to know its not going to end well, and many will tell them to leave before they finish. Walking out with a hard-on and blue balls is NOT the way you want a session to end.
I know you don't patronize the indie market much, but MANY indies have an age cutoff and don't see guys under 35. Some of them post on the GD board. Go to their personal website, and it will say so in black and white. If this continues to be a problem, changes in screening may well be in order. It IS concentrated among the young guys, so following what the indies do may be the only way to stop it. Its just one of the possible solutions some bookers are kicking around. You can be as skeptical as you want, but unless you are close enough to some of the bookers that they will discuss not only the joys of this hobby, but also the recurring problems, you don't really know what you're talking about. Most mongers live in a Fantasy Land vacuum and never come in contact with the "dark side" of the biz, which is generally a good thing. Ignorance is bliss.
If the monger’s offense is considered egregious by the org, black listing is the least of his worries.
I’m not going to say more than that on a public forum.
If you aren’t careful, it can get rough out there.
Really? Because last year we had an armed robbery in the bay, you probably heard of that. The two scum and their social media accounts accounts were quickly identified and put up on wall of shame, but that's about it. I don't think it can get any egregiously worse than two guys with guns holding up a girl and another monger with her roommate.
Most orgs don't want any publicity or loud noises or anything remotely that causes anyone to investigate shit. They are at a disadvantage there because any big news or loud yell is bad for them. If they're not sending goons after robbers, best believe a global BL is the worst. We'll, maybe some social media trolling, sure. But what can social media trolling do to scum with priors?
Close to the booker? Why would I want to be close to some scum who is willing to lie for a green piece of paper? Shit, I'd want to be as far as possible from such people. Unless if I'm tracking them or something, lol.
I can get information in many ways that doesn't involve me being some lapdog.
Sure, some indies (some) have an age limit. Wake me up when kgirl industry willingly loses a huge cut of money they get from young mongers. Most indies are low volume girls. Almost no indies see 10 guys a day. 10 guys a day is a good business day for kgirls and insane for most indies.
I've yet to see bookers or orgs willingly shut down a huge influx of money coming their way.
There's no way in hell this is happening in the bay area. Great way to lose a lot of the tech industry millionaires here. Lol.
and not really worth the bandwidth to respond, but I'm not doing anything else right now, so I'll give it a whirl. Your attitude serves as a glowing example why some millennials have shitty Kgirl sessions in the high percentage that you claim, while the veterans here enjoy nearly 95%+ of the girls they see, at least the ones I know do.
Its funny how you denigrate bookers as a defense mechanism to the fact that you will never be getting any of the perks that go with being on GOOD TERMS with the gatekeepers. In that respect, you are an outlier. Most millennials I know can't wait to be the first ones to get priority when a hot new Kgirl comes to town. I hope you forgive them for not signing on to your crusade. Most Newbies learn quickly on which side their bread is buttered. Have you noticed that very few of the younger guys here are agreeing with you in your crusade to transform the orgs. The ones that are PM'ing me that are still in their first year ask how to become VIP's and get the perks, not how to tell a booker to go fuck himself.
If you knew many Kgirls OR bookers personally, you would have a better handle on the truth about Kgirl volume. Yes, some get up to10 customers on a given day, and some of those are 30 minute sessions, but not "per day" as you claim. There are good days and bad days, just like there is for others in service industries. One of my regulars often gets 8-9 customers on Mondays. Tuesdays and Wednesdays are much slower at 2-4 customers for the whole day, then Thursday is better (5 average) and Friday is usually almost as good as Monday (7-8), so over the course of a week, it is rarely more than 5-6 a day ON AVERAGE. Booker M in SoCal had one day a few weeks ago where, for the entire day, she had three bookings from Mongers. She had four girls working, so three of them had ONE customer for he entire day, and one had none. Imagine what a grind it is to take two hours in the morning to do hair and makeup and then not get a single customer all day. Other orgs have similar days.
You also don't seem to be in reality about how much of the gross revenue younger guys contribute to the Kgtirls as a percentage of the total. The financial constraints on younger guys necessarily limits their kgirl sessions. Once a week is high volume for a millennial, but there are older guys here seeing 6 girls a week. In addition, older guys are more likely to book multiple hours. Repeats for me are always two hours, and useyrhead has stated here that he mostly does two hours as well. I agree that millennials may represent a big percentage in 10-20 years when they get older and make more money, but its not anywhere near what you think it is at this point in time. You admit that you don't know any bookers or org owners personally, so your claim that "I've yet to see bookers or orgs willingly shut down a huge influx of money coming their way" is just speculation on your part. You have NO personal inside knowledge.
I already said I don't tell newbies to take my road. They can choose whatever they want. I never denied you get bookers "perks" by brown nosing them. That actually was my whole argument from the get go. Appeasing bookers and not writing truthful subpar reviews because that would get people off the good terms. Which is against the TER policies.
And, I think you're misunderstanding something. I have OK relationship between my POs and my monger persona. I don't bother them, they don't bother me when I do business.
Pre-covid, on busy days, the popular girls in the bay are usually fully booked well by noon. Many girls work 10 customers a day easy. Some do more if half hours. A chatterbox girl who also worked at hobbyshop in vegas told me 10 is a busy day, and they get busy days often, 12 usually max. I don't see why I have to know a booker when a girl usually tells me herself how many customer she had today, because I almost always ask. I'm often the last one. That girl also said she was going crazy off seeing so many clients a day and I believe her, even tho she's a vet.
Maybe the LA demographics is different, but in the bay we have tons of rich young people who are in tech, aren't exactly perfect dating material, yet have boatloads of money. And these guys, see multiple girls per week, often binging either every day or like me several girls in a row. These guys work hard and play hard. Of course, this is all pre-covid. Of course, if you remember, our prices are 220 all inclusive unlike the upsell central you got going in LA for bb hounds.
Did I mention that most of the kgirl orgs are literally ten minutes within of dozens of huge tech companies? It's speculation, sure, but I'd make an educated guess that at least 40% of revenue is from people who are 40 and below.
I haven't seen or heard any org in the bay make any cutoff as related to demographic in last two years. There is only one that introduced mandatory non-reference screening. So the influx of money was not ever stopped there. Maybe it had in LA. I'm speaking about my side of town. I haven't seen orgs block some group of people they thought were threatening.
It's funny now that I've figured out that millenials and young mongers piss you off. You use "millennial" in every post now when talking to me, like an insult. Hilarious.
Oh and, I denigrate bookers because I'm not getting perks? What kind of shitty logic is that? I don't want their perks. I don't want to be a VIP monger.
I already said I don't like feedback falsification and feedback pressure from them for writing subpar reviews. Don't play dumb.
-- Modified on 6/14/2020 11:07:07 PM
if you are lazy and using your TER handle to make appointments. I have written hundreds of reviews and no booker ever called me out on content because they don't know who CDL is. There is no connection between my real persona and CDL.
Kgirls always say they are fully booked TO THEIR CUSTOMERS so it will look like they are sooo popular you feel lucky to get an appointment. Haven't you paid attention to the other threads where everyone is comparing notes on how much Kgirls lie to their customers? The "I miss you" texts are only the tip of the iceberg. They have their brand to protect, so of course they are going to say they are more in demand than they are. I know many of the older Kgirls tell their booker to limit their appointments to 6 customers a day. Once they get six, the booker tells guys like you they are "fully booked." If you want to speculate that it means they have 10 customer already lined up, then that's YOUR mistake. Don't be so naïve. A lot of this shit is marketing 101. You make it hard to get, but easy to buy.
I did not say that orgs were using age to cut-off younger mongers . . . . yet. I merely suggested that it might be coming based on what some of the bookers are saying about younger guys stealthing the girls. I said the standard age cutoff with indies that don't see younger guys is 30 or 35. You said it was 40, which its not, in order to bolster your argument about the percentage of revenue generated by younger mongers. Don't you find that intellectually dishonest? Surprised you would stoop to that. This is not EM, the crowd here is much more educated, so that shit won't fly, my friend.
When it comes to figuring ME out, you have it backwards. I started using the term millennials more once I found it twists your panties into a bunch. You said yourself, "You use "millennial" in every post now when talking to me". So yes, YOU finally figured it out. It doesn't piss me off at all. I have many millennial employees and several millennial monger friends that I have coached into the Kgirl scene. All fine young men with their heads screwed on straight. I just love how it gets you to a near-meltdown.
It amazes me the donation difference by locale. Bay Area is almost always 220 hour. LA and OC vary between 240-300 hour. Vegas is always 300 hour. Seattle is 400. Same ladies, same routine, same great service. Makes no sense that the orgs don’t standardize their donations.
$240, but yeah, prices there have been stable for years. Its a result of supply exceeding demand, IMO. FOTB girls can't get into SoCal straight from Korea anymore, so they go to the BA first, work for awhile, network with the other girls to get introductions to SoCal orgs. I have given an org owner's phone number to a few girls in the BA who eventually were able to get a spot. They make more in SoCal, so they would rather go there, but slots are scarce because the top girls in SoCal don't tour, so their slots never open up for new girls to come in. My Kgirlfriend is a permanent SoCal Kgirl, and as long as she doesn't take more than 5-6 days off for her monthly period, (she also gets Sundays off and every other Saturday if she wants it, which usually depends on whatever my plans are for the weekend), she never has to move her personal stuff out of the incall. That's her working place, permanently, as long as she wants it. However, if she wants to take a two week vacation, which she did during the corona lockdown (one week for her period and one week in Hawaii with me), then she has to clear out her personal things so they can put a touring girl in the room for two weeks, and then move her own stuff back in when she's ready to work again.
The house cut in the BA has mostly stayed at $70, in SoCal, it has remained at $100 and in Vegas, its $120, so the increases we have seen in local prices mostly go to the girls. Not sure what it is in Seattle. I haven't been there in awhile. There may be slight variations from agency to agency, but when you get up to $300 in LA, the org is usually up to $120 like Vegas.
Thanks CDL
The house cut in the BA has mostly stayed at $70, in SoCal, it has remained at $100 and in Vegas, its $120, so the increases we have seen in local prices mostly go to the girls. Not sure what it is in Seattle. I haven't been there in awhile. There may be slight variations from agency to agency, but when you get up to $300 in LA, the org is usually up to $120 like Vegas.
Also, who covers the overhead like apartment rental, etc...? I've been to places where it's a shared space and others where it was obvious that the girl was the sole occupant.
Or at least I hope they don't do it here on a public forum. Some things really don't need to be aired in public, the inner workings of how an illegal operation handles their money is most definitely VERY high on that list.
That's a little too much detail for a public forum.
I first posted the "split" a few years ago on this board in reference to "tipping" to counter the guys that thought the girls don't deserve tips because they were making $250-$260 an hour at the time. After you take out the house cut of $100, its really not that much for the kgirls. Its way less than what indies get, and we consistently get overall better service from Kgirls for less money than the indies I have seen.
My practice has been to tip 20% on the full price, which is $50-60, but I also think its acceptable to tip on the portion the girl is receiving, which would be 20% of $150 (or more depending on the local rate) which would range from $30-40. I've never met a Kgirl that was not very appreciative in this range of $30-60. While I'm mentioning tipping, Kgirls would always rather receive a cash tip than other kinds of "gifts."
Sorry to go a little off-topic, but I thought the tie-in to tipping was a good point to make about knowing what the "split" is on your donation, and how much the girl actually keeps.
That's a little too much detail for a public forum.
I was seeing regularly a few years ago at $400. She went to school in the US so her English was perfect, and so the witty banter was part of the attraction for me. Just before TER went dark in the US, she raised her rate to $500. I don't grouse about prices. Its bad form, but I cut back on frequency thinking she might get the hint. Not only did she NOT get the hint, about a year ago, she went up to $600. Now we're at what I pay for two hours with most Kgirls, so I just stopped going. Shortly after, she took down her website, so I assume she got a civvie job and gave up hooking. This is an example at how substantial price changes can chase customers away. Its better to do it in small increments, like many of the Korgs do. $10 at a time is easy to take for just about all of us.
I think she started at $250, she had gone to $300 by the time I saw her and I just KNEW she'd be a star. She left Texas a couple of months after I saw her and started raising her rates incrementally, but by $100 hr at a time, the last I heard she was in NYC getting $900 hr and had guys lining up around the block to see her.
Some girls can pull it off, others can't I suppose. Her last review was a few years ago, but I doubt she got a civvie job, she probably found some super rich guy that took her off the market.
It helps if the girl is in porn star biz or even popular Instagram "model". Her prices skyrocket.
I'm already willing to pay 3x what I pay for my atfs, and those Asian porn stars have high prices because of fans.
Still eternally kicking myself... when my boo Mika Tan was available in Nevada legal brothel and I wasn't aware about it. Fuck, man. Opportunity of a lifetime... wasted 
This is probably off topic, sorry
haunt all of us. Many times I have put off seeing a Kgirl I wanted to see because I had promised other girls I would visit, and then when I'm ready to see her, she leaves a day or two before I was going to book. Usually they come back, but sometimes they don't.
...didn't 'grandfather' you. That means she didn't give a shit about your sorry ass. She obviously didn't care if you kept seeing her or not. Providers who value their customers will always see them at the same rate even if they raise their advertised rates.
You also said: "...she went up to $600...Shortly after, she took down her website, so I assume she got a civvie job and gave up hooking." Yeah, that's what YOU assume so your fragile ego won't be bruised. I ASSUME that she had enough business at $600. that she no longer had to advertise. That didn't occur to you, did it?
As to the split, I had a very popular KGirl in WLA tell me a year ago that the booker only received a fee on my first visit. The way it came up was she gave me her direct number (I don't remember why) and I asked her if she would prefer that I schedule directly with her going forward thinking that she could avoid the house/booker fee. When I asked her directly she said that her deal was that she only split with her booker on the client's first visit. Is that consistent with your understanding?
she is one of a new breed of Kgirl that is completely independent, but they use a booker to source new customers. Their regular customers book directly with the girl. The girl is working for herself, out of an apartment she leases herself, and the only thing she doesn't have is a steady supply of new customers that fill the void caused by attrition. If you ask some of the LA bookers if they have any other girls that are not on the agency website, and you are well-established with the booker, you can get access to these UTR girls. Most have been permanent fixtures in LA for at least 4 or 5 years, many much longer. Was she alone or with a roommate. Many of these kinds of girls work in a two bedroom apartment where they also live. They work in one bedroom and sleep in the other. I haven't seem all of the UTR girls lately since they started working like this, so there may be some variations in the set up that I'm not aware of.
There are also some established Kgirls that are offering outcall to customers they know. They will meet you in a hotel or come to your home if its not more than 10 miles for them. $100 over the incall rate for outcall, same as Vegas.
Don't want to out her, but you saw her in early 2016. She's one of my top 5 all time KGirl experiences, and based on your review I think you might have liked her too. I don't know if she had a roommate or not when I saw her. I was her first appointment of the day (my favorite time to visit) and when I got there we quickly went to her room so I didn't see anyone. When I left she had fukked me into oblivion and I was dizzy so I lacked the ability to comprehend what I saw.
-- Modified on 6/19/2020 9:13:00 AM
I generally tip 20+% on the provider take.
If a girl is good enough for me to consider a return, I tip her.
Though I’ll probably tip if she just doesn’t play Dodge the Pickle. This is a topic I’ve already covered.
My thought is that the girls don’t believe anything I might say about how great they are or how much I like them. Nor do the vast majority of them really care about gifts.
But, if I repeat with them and consistently tip without making a big deal out of it, they actually appreciate it.
And at that point I find that they become more interested in who I am. And maybe in having more of a relationship with me. Though I limit that pretty carefully. Other than a good friendly connection, that’s just not what I’m in this for.
My ATF (and, yes, I’ve only had one) raised her rate once. And I paid her new rate and still tipped her the very first time.
She stopped and looked at me for a second and said: “Why does everybody else complain or want discount but you don’t?”
Walls between us began to drop a lot after that.
I know this supports what you’ve been saying all along.
I just don’t understand why this isn’t obvious to everyone?
Sorry, gambler, but the orgs think it's ok to do bullshit reviews, pressure monger feedback and do false advertising, yet we must keep quiet on a public forum about something most girls will tell you anyway? As Mr Pink would say, fuck all that.
fully hedged,
in the bay the girls cut varies, but it's within a % range. Standard is from the 220, 70 go to the house (org+PO) and girl keeps 150. Orgs pick up cash. Some have a person go in at the end of the day to pick it up. Lol at ach. Girls wire money back home often to some proxy entity or families.
Orgs and super VIP mongers cover the housing part. If they don't, they find a third party entity and give them a cut. You can read up on the Bellevue busts to understand how it works. Getting a lease agreement in the bay area is not that easy these days, even in San Jose or SM, so it involves many people who are willing to risk their shit.
The house cut in the BA has mostly stayed at $70, in SoCal, it has remained at $100 and in Vegas, its $120, so the increases we have seen in local prices mostly go to the girls. Not sure what it is in Seattle. I haven't been there in awhile. There may be slight variations from agency to agency, but when you get up to $300 in LA, the org is usually up to $120 like Vegas.
Also, who covers the overhead like apartment rental, etc...? I've been to places where it's a shared space and others where it was obvious that the girl was the sole occupant.
It is one thing to talk about what is clearly public information. It is another to start disclosing private information. It doesn't matter if some provider told you, or even a booker or agency owner. We're all supposed to have some level of judgment about discretion and respecting privacy.
While this does not quite reach the level of outting anyone I don't think it is helpful to the site or mongering activities at all. I do think it violates the spirit of TER rules regarding keeping what is said in private off the public forums.
What exactly did I post that wasn't public?
The house cut amount? Cdl posted that too, but you haven't replied to him. I did not post any names nor any private info whatsoever of anyone.
Everything else is publicly available if you read about Bellevue busts.
Funny how quick you're to point out rigid lines when you think it's infringing on the org rights, but when it comes to monger rights we need to have dozens of posts back and forth. We'll, not funny, it's expected from you guys at this point. It was clear whose side you're on from day one.
-- Modified on 6/16/2020 12:02:45 PM
"Sorry, gambler, but the orgs think it's ok to do bullshit reviews, pressure monger feedback and do false advertising, yet we must keep quiet on a public forum about something most girls will tell you anyway?"
That was the statement I was responding to.
Oh OK. Well, I agree then. No matter what, I will keep real privacy info out the forum and likely out of pms as well. I don't think what a girl cut is at some org is anything private.
And I will even point out when others go too far.
Sorry about misunderstanding.
but then I read what information you put in your actual post and I found nothing to get worked up about. I think it is helpful for mongers to have some kind of idea about what the split is so they can make their own decisions about tipping.
OTOH, things like how visas are obtained, how the money is actually handled, etc etc etc are really none of anyones business. I know several of us who have been involved with some of these girls in IRL relationships or have even become close personal friends with agency owners are privvy to a lot of that kind of information I would hope that NONE of us would ever reveal that kind of information to ANYONE whether it be publicly or even privately as some things really are nobody's business, but of course you never spoke to anything like that so you didn't step over any lines that I saw.
However, your characterization of "super-VIP mongers" covering "housing" expenses is misleading. Many girls at some point decide they want to set up their own incall. They will work one room and have a succession of touring girls in the other room just like any other org. Their only variable "service" expenses then becomes the booker fees, because they are on a per-hour-booked basis, and the "consumables" (condoms, lube, shower supplies, mouthwash, wet-wipes and of course the ubiquitous petite bottles of water that let everyone in the apartment complex know you just saw a hooker). Their housing expense becomes a fixed expense, and the volume the two girls do determines the profitability of the operation.
In order to do this, the Kgirls need two things, a co-signer for the lease (Kgirls cannot usually qualify credit-wise for a lease on their own), and start-up expenses (first and last lease payment, plus enough to furnish the incall - usually about $15,000 total. If they have the $15,000, they will usually just contract with a "professional" co-signer (they are all over the Korean community and will work with new immigrants as well as Kgirls). They will take a monthly fee of 20-25% of the rent amount. If they are guaranteeing a $3000 lease, they will collect $600 to $750 monthly, which increases the fixed operating expenses for the Kgirl-owner. Having their name as a co-signer carries some small risk if the place is busted, depending on what their knowledge was as to what is going on there. In the alternative, Kgirls may find a "boyfriend" with good credit to be their co-signer and he will be rewarded with "free" pussy instead of money. I can't count how many times I have been approached for this (its an automatic pass for me). If they also need the $15,000, then they will approach a customer with deep pockets (your super-VIP monger, if you will) and make him her partner. I have been approached for this as well. (Still a pass for me.) While the numbers can be quite enticing, there is no way to wiggle out of being a brothel owner if you go this route and the place is busted. (A co-signer can always say he did it for a friend and had no idea she was a hooker, assuming he has wiped all of the evidence away.) So to put your statement in context, the only two ways a monger is used for housing is as a co-signer, or a partner of a Kgirl that runs her own incall, still using a booker, but without an org. There are several LA girls who do this. Whenever you see a girl in a One-bedroom apartment, she is also her own owner/org (technically an independent, but we don't call girls following the Kgirl business model indies), but still with a booker for her scheduling.
I don't remember if it was you or someone else who said the girl only pays the booker/PO the first time. That is not true. The bookers in the BA area get $10 per booked hour out of the house cut. In SoCal, its $15-20 depending on the rate structure.
-- Modified on 6/17/2020 5:54:10 AM
The risk is fucking HUGE. The co-signer can face charges even more serious than the hooker herself, (this is not unique to K-Girls) a person co-signing a lease for a hooker can and have been charged with "operating a house of prostitution" a FELONY which is much more serious that a simple charge of solicitation
Any guys reading this that thing it's an easy way to get free pussy or some extra free, low risk money need to pay heed. Guys have been put in PRISON for this, and there are some "former" TER members in prison right now for doing this exact thing. so DON'T DO IT!!! Don't even fucking think about doing it if you value your freedom.
depending on the jurisdiction. One LA Kgirl that runs her own incall has been busted twice in the last 3 years and her co-signer was never even charged. There have been three in OC in the past 5 years that I know of where the co-signers were initially charged, but then the charges were dismissed. If you become the PARTNER of a Kgirl, then I agree that everything you said applies to THAT situation. Being a partner is a lot more exposure than being just a co-signer on a lease. Compare it to co-signing on a lease for a friend, and he is later busted for growing marijuana on the premises. As a co-signer who had no knowledge of the criminal activities and had never even been to the apartment, do you think they could make charges stick merely because he co-signed a lease for a place where he did not live. That's a stretch in my book. Same idea.
Being the Kgirl's partner is definitely being an owner. Being a co-signer without any interest in the proceeds of the illegal activities is probably not going to get the net thrown over you, too. Just my opinions from the local busts I have observed. Org OWNERS definitely go down, but I agree with your conclusion . . . . DON'T DO IT. At the very least, your name will be in the paper initially for all of your friends, family and neighbors to see. That's why I put quotes around the "free" pussy. It may not be free if you have to spend five or ten grand on a good attorney to get your charges dropped. If you don't have money for a good attorney, the court will appoint the dumbest fucking attorney working in the PD's office to represent you, again, for "free." Lol
I don't doubt that there ARE guys in prison for their involvement in Kgirl (and Thai-girl) orgs, but these cases are fact-sensitive as far as the peripheral players and their level of involvement. I bet if we knew all of the facts we would find these guys were a lot more deeply involved than just co-signing a lease. Lots of ways to get the charges dropped. In OC, a few orgs have gone down and ALL of the owners went to prison for at least a year, but they were taking the owner's cut of the revenue after the overhead was paid, so they directly profited from the criminal activity. A professional co-signer is paid a fee for taking the risk that the person they are underwriting will pay the lease payments. If they don't he assumes that obligation, but is not obligated to keep the business running that was being conducted out of the space.
Not for being "partners" but just for having his name on the lease. It happens. Don't fool yourself that it doesn't. In one case in Atlanta the guy was a TER member, reviewer and frequent board participant, I guess his claims "I didn't know" rang hollow as a defense.
As you know "facts" aren't always the determining factor in a court case, an overzealous prosecutor in a jurisdiction that is making a point to stamp out "human trafficking" doesn't need a lot of actual facts other than than the fact that the lessee leased the property knowing that it was going to be used as a "house of prostitution" The amount of profit he or she made is completely irrelevant to the charge.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't try to make light of this, this is serious, and not something that anyone should take lightly. It's a FELONY, punishable by years in prison.
Been a lawyer for 40 years, recently retired. Never did criminal cases but I know a bit about the process/system, and I’m with GaG on this one. Historically prosecutors, especially sex crimes and trafficking units, view the girls as victims. Their goal is to swim upstream and try to get the wealthy and successful guys if they can. They’ll do whatever it takes to get the girl, who they see as the victim, to turn on the guy(s) and testify that the guy(s) knew what her business was and that she couldn’t have obtained her ‘place of business’ without the guy’s help/credit, and that she paid him a monthly fee for the help/credit. That makes at least an aiding and abetting charge if not a pandering charge or worse. They want the publicity of taking down the guy(s). If the girl is a legal resident she’ll get a misdemeanor at most; if she’s illegal they deport her. It’ll be a costly and embarrassing situation for the guy. Whether he goes to jail or prison I can’t say, but he’ll regret his decision to help her out. I would NEVER recommend that anyone do this.
Chiming in with an East Coast perspective: the same as GaG and dcgrind.
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There was a NYC blogger who did advertising and other work for many AMPs, RMPs, and indies in NYC. He had a lot of inside info. Because he was on such good terms with so many in the industry, he was always being asked to help with getting a new place set up (i.e., sign or co-sign a lease). Some contributors to the blog would mention that had also been approached by their latest ATFs about participating in a new venture.
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The blogger's message was clear: STAY AWAY! or even RUN AWAY! Do not get involved with that end of the business! No good will come of it! I don't remember any specific personal stories. The occasional newspaper story about a recent bust would mention names but nobody that I would know or recognize. The news stories do not report, "The lessee was just some poor sap who got taken in by dozens of beautiful girls but now he's going to jail."
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At least in NYC, the news accounts make it clear that LE investigations can be ongoing for months and months, with monitoring of "foot" traffic (i.e., penis traffic) and the subpoenaing of all sorts of phone and financial records. The newspaper stories also make it clear that LE likes to go after the EASY cases. A record of hourly visits, a paper trail of signed leases, bank account activities, monthly rent payments, invoices for renovations (table shower plumbing, dimmer switches in the rooms, etc.) is a lot easier to prosecute than a pretty girl with a suitcase full of sparkly lingerie and $2000 in cash in her pocket.
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(NOTE: The NYC blogger ended up going to prison for an unrelated white collar offense.)
Been a lawyer for 40 years, recently retired. Never did criminal cases but I know a bit about the process/system, and I’m with GaG on this one. Historically prosecutors, especially sex crimes and trafficking units, view the girls as victims. Their goal is to swim upstream and try to get the wealthy and successful guys if they can. They’ll do whatever it takes to get the girl, who they see as the victim, to turn on the guy(s) and testify that the guy(s) knew what her business was and that she couldn’t have obtained her ‘place of business’ without the guy’s help/credit, and that she paid him a monthly fee for the help/credit. That makes at least an aiding and abetting charge if not a pandering charge or worse. They want the publicity of taking down the guy(s). If the girl is a legal resident she’ll get a misdemeanor at most; if she’s illegal they deport her. It’ll be a costly and embarrassing situation for the guy. Whether he goes to jail or prison I can’t say, but he’ll regret his decision to help her out. I would NEVER recommend that anyone do this.
to your considerable education and background, I must disagree with your blanket statement that . . . .
" . . . .if she’s illegal they deport her." That's just not the case in California. I know of only one Kgirl in the past ten years that has been deported, and its because it was her THIRD strike. I know a few dozen Kgirls that have been busted, but no one has been deported on a first offense. Some get scared an go home after being busted, and the monger rumor mill assumes they were deported, but they just don't deport Kgirls because if they're smart, they will rarely get past the "first" offense, and they will only work in sanctuary cities that treat illegals leniently. it applies to all illegals, not Hispanics.
My favorite example is a girl I had a real life relationship with in 2015. She lived in Ktown, LA, but worked only in the BA, and San Jose was where she was busted. She did not roll over on the org, but pleaded out to a misdemeanor solicitation charge, and was sentenced to 20 hours of "hooker school", a social program to discourage streetwalkers from working the streets because of the many dangers. If she completed the course, her conviction would be completely expunged. Being a smart and enterprising girl (I don't date the stupid ones), she arranged to take the classes in 4-hour increments on Tuesdays and Thursdays consecutively until finished, so roughly two and a half weeks. The day before the first class, she flew to the BA and set up her working gear at an incall in San Mateo. The next morning she took a taxi to the court house and attended the class (she was the only non-streetwalker there, so there was not much content that applied to her). When she finished at noon, she took a taxi back to San Mateo and saw her first customer at 2:00p. She followed this schedule for the two and half weeks. They gave her a completion certificate, which her attorney submitted to the court and the judge expunged and sealed her record, since this was a first offense. With your legal mind, you have probably already figured out the if she gets busted again, it will also be treated as "first" offense, and the merry-go-round keeps spinning. Deportation was never a threat nor even mentioned throughout her journey through the "system." The last three years she has been working in OC and is very popular.
Another case I am personally familiar with is a girl who was also here illegally, having overstayed her visa by ten years. I have been a regular of hers off and on for all ten of those years. She was busted in LA, coincidentally in her OWN incall like we have been talking about. There was no hooker school in LA, so she pleaded out to a misdemeanor and was given one year of probation. It was a first offense, but she was warned that if she got busted again in LA county during her probation period, deportation would be a potential consequence. She didn't want to take a chance, so she worked the next year and a half in San Diego. After her probation was finished and her conviction was expunged, she went back to LA and has been working on the Westside for the past three years.
There are dozens more like this, but these are two popular local girls that come to mind. I'm sure you're familiar with "distinguishing factors" and in this case I'm talking about situations that are unique to California vis a vis deportation. In California, only felony records are archived statewide. Misdemeanor records are archived at the county level, so in theory, the LA girl may not have discovered as a probation violator if she had been busted in San Diego unless they reached out to other counties to see if she has a record. LE here simply doesn't make it a practice to do that unless the new pending charge is a felony, which solicitation isn't. Unlike some states, if the conviction is expunged within a certain time frame, they don't have to register as a convicted sex offender, which IS a statewide database. Lastly, all of California is a sanctuary state, and the major cites in SoCal and the BA are sanctuary cities, some with more protections for illegal immigrants than what the statewide protections are. The Kgirls all know this and take advantage of these sanctuary laws.
As for your other points, I have no real disagreements as I explained to my response to GaG, which is now below this one, I believe. I have sat in the courtroom for a few of these busted Kgirls being processed, and I have never heard a reference to deportation from the bench. So your blanket statement that illegal girls are deported if busted may be true in YOUR jurisdiction, but it is far from true in CA.
California has become so fucked up in the past 20 years. I practiced there my entire career. It has been sad to watch, so sad for me that I moved to Vegas after retiring. Given the recency of the cases you’ve described I’m not surprised by the outcomes as the workers were facing misdemeanor prostitution charges. The ladies were very lucky not to be in a Federal Court for trafficking, tax, or related charges because they’d more likely have faced the scenario I described.
California LE is prohibited from turning over illegals, even ones that have committed crimes, to ICE, is why deportation is off the table except for repeat offenders, since the states have no authority to deport. I don't mind it in the case of our Kgirls, which I'm aware is a self serving statement, but when it comes to other crimes, mostly property crimes, where there are innocent victims, It bothers me a lot. I agree about California going down the tubes. If my business wasn't firmly established here, I would leave, too.
that there are guys in prison for signing a lease, but I also know that in most immigrant communities, there are professional lease co-signers, and the cases here that involved professional co-signing services, regardless of what the criminal activity is by the principal leaseholder that happened on the premises (whether its prostitution, drug dealing, gambling rooms, or whatever else, LE has not been able to get convictions on these kinds of co-signing ervices. As a co-signer, they are only responsible for the financial obligation on the lease, not whatever the person who is the principal does for a living. I think we are talking about apples and oranges. You're talking about a guy who says he's not involved (wink, wink), but meanwhile he has a history with the hooker that has a digital or paper trail. I agree, these situations are going to result in guys going down. In LA the girls go to Korean co-signing services, and they represent they will be living there (and sometimes they do). The co-signer never even sees the place, and fee payments are direct-deposited into the co-signer's business account. The gov has not been successful in criminal charges against these kinds of services. Sorry. It is what it is. Please stop trying to argue something other than what I said. When it comes to a monger doing this, I completely agreed with your admonition to "DON'T DO IT", even in caps like you did. If I came off a little flippant, then my apologies, but I disclosed I have passed on every opportunity to participate in these kinds of deals. Yes, you can go to jail if there's a bust. I will also add that when the Kgirl flips on you, you're going to be surprised she doesn't really love you like you thought. Better?
-- Modified on 6/17/2020 3:49:50 PM
As you know "facts" aren't always the determining factor in a court case, an overzealous prosecutor in a jurisdiction that is making a point to stamp out "human trafficking" doesn't need a lot of actual facts other than than the fact that the lessee leased the property knowing that it was going to be used as a "house of prostitution" The amount of profit he or she made is completely irrelevant to the charge.
The CDL from a few hours ago, or the CDL from 4 months ago?
CDL, just four months ago you were COMPLETELY agreeing with me, what's changed?
As I said back then, a lot of guys have fucked Gina Rollins bareback and didn't catch a thing, are YOU willing to put your bare dick into that petri dish that she calls a vagina?
The one that usually has no problem with reading comprehension, or the one that posts during happy hour? Lol
You still don't seem to understand about the difference between a professional co-signing service, and a monger that has been persuaded by a girl to sign a lease for her. A professional cosigner may have guaranteed 50 or 60 leases, both residential and commercial, around town, and if one is being used for a Kgirl incall, they do not convict the co-signing service because its an arms-length transaction from the daily business of the incall. That would be like arresting the apartment manager of a complex that has an incall in it. They just don't throw the net that wide. In your link I was clearly referring a MONGER or BUSINESS PARTNER who co-signs for kgirl, where its NOT HIS USUAL BUSINESS TO COSIGN for people he doesn't know. You can believe both CDL's because its apples and oranges. Once again, after your first responsive post, I clarified my position and backed up your admonition to "DON'T DO IT". That sounds to me like I am STILL completely agreeing with you NOW as well, ON SCOPE OF YOUR POINT. Now you're nit-picking like BFSF and BPOS. You REALLY don't want to be like those guys.
Right now it's YOU that is starting to sound like BobFromStateFarm.
Let's just agree to agree, is that so fucking hard? lol
first response to your comments. If you look back at my original post on this matter, I mentioned professional co-signers FIRST. I went on to talk about mongers being co-signers and maybe it was a little too lighthearted. I already apologized for that, too. Can I send you a pint of my blood or something to make it up to you? Lol
but if you want to send me a bottle of really good tequila, yeah I'm fine with that. lol
And this is purely supposition on my part but seems like it might tie in with other subthreads in the discussions on the forum.
For anyone that is not an insider, and by that I mean much more than just friendly with the girls and/or bookers, agreeing to participate in the delivery side as a co-signer/guarantor seems like it is setting oneself up as the patsy. From that view, even if you don't go to jail it seems that trying to play that game is just setting oneself up for a lot of potential headaches.
The jail threat is the most obvious downside, but having it be just another form of Kgirl hustle is a bit more subtle, and guys will fall for it. There might even be some that are so enamored they would take the attitude that they would go to jail for the girl's love. The problem is, when they don't visit you in the slammer, its easy to figure out how much "love" is involved. Lol
At least bring me gimchi with a file in it and tell my your will wait
Which is why I came down so hard on CDL making light of this, Stupid, lovelorn white guys enamored with a K-girl will do all sorts of things "for love"
You can't sugarcoat it for anyone who is even slightly considering doing something this fucking dumb, If they hear that other guys have gotten away with it, BUT other guys have gone to prison, all they hear is the part about how other guys have gotten away with it. BTW I have given the EXACT same advice to guys wanting to sign a lease for a white hooker, and I have slammed several white hookers who came on the boards looking for a sucker to help them in that way, much to the chagrin of the hooker/s of course.
Putting your name on anything illegal is dumb, putting your name on something illegal over which you don't have the slightest bit of control over is beyond dumb.
LOL -- you mean it's not only a problem if you do stupid with K-girls?
There is a whole lot of stupid when love, affection and bragging rights take center stage. I'll go back a a common suggestion of mine: if you don't have emotional maturity and discipline you will find lots of ways to make some big mistakes in this world...well any world.
I don't think anyone has accused me of being "emotionally mature" or disciplined, but I am smart enough not to put my name on illegal activities for the promise of free pussy or chump change, and yes, I have been approached too, but I have never been so desperate for either money or pussy to risk years in prison for it.
Of course I do make a LOT of other mistakes, but I think you already knew that, didn't you? lol
Stupidity does not discriminate. It can infect anyone for any reason.
TRUTH!
LOL -- you mean it's not only a problem if you do stupid with K-girls?
There is a whole lot of stupid when love, affection and bragging rights take center stage. I'll go back a a common suggestion of mine: if you don't have emotional maturity and discipline you will find lots of ways to make some big mistakes in this world...well any world.
Sounds about right. Do you then agree that anyone who is receiving favors from girls as a result of such deals (that you were approached about) should never even attempt a review of the girls he's getting favors from, as this effectively makes him part of the org and have conflict of interest?
This is why my rule of thumb is to assume that if someone has booker or org ties, then they are biased and their reviews should be taken with a very very humongous grain of salt or just simply discarded,as they are too likely to be biased. Any co-signer of a lease is someone who should never post a review of the org he's cosigning for, as it diminishes integrity of reviews.
Higher prices for everything in LV are due to the tourist nature of the economy (they certainly aren't due to the cost of living - you can book a hotel room by the month for far less than a comparable apt in the SF Bay Area). I don't have enough stick time in the LA/OC K-girl scene to comment on it, but I can tell you there's a lot more repeat business and feedback/interaction between the mongers up north (and more than one private network/site available for reviews and sharing notes) than in LV, where most of the clientele are either noobs from Des Moines who don't know any better or flush mongers who are there to spend money regardless and not especially price-sensitive. A lady who figures she's never going to see her client again is less likely to think providing the quality of service of one who depends on her regulars to pay the bills. That has been my observation - I do go to Vegas on occasion for business related purposes, but I would never consider traveling there for the purpose of having sex.
My comment on feedback pressure was clarifying why I "denigrate" bookers, not implying you are getting pressured. I consider anyone who is ok to manipulate customer feedback scum.
Huh? My statement is dishonest? I went to Wikipedia and looked up what age range is considered millenial, because previously I had no idea. It says the lower border is people born in 1981. So, it's 40 year old cutoff. I just went off that. I don't get my panties in a bunch, I wasn't even sure I'm a millennial. I don't like when you diss a subset of mongers, any subset of mongers. Thats all.
Nah I'm pretty sure many girls get 10 customers a day. Many girls in the bay do back to backs all day long. I see customers getting out and in at the beginning and end of the appointment. And that's me at a late ass time usually. Popular girls get way more than 6 Johns a day, it's not even a question. Lol.
Girls lie sure but they don't have incentive to lie. Many times less popular girls say they had two clients and it's been a slow day. Six clients is just the cutoff for even making money. Kgirls tell me that less than 6 clients is pointless.
I referred to myself on a post in the last few days as a Model T, a knock on guys my age. So don't get your panties in a bunch about THAT either. Its just easier with younger guys because they fuck up more than older guys. I know I did when I was young. Its part of growing up and I enjoy watching it as much as I did living it. There is a lot of humor in life. MOST of my dissing is not meanspirited, just pointing out stupid shit that i think is humorous. I just like to poke fun sometimes at guys that think they have life figured out by the time they are 30. I think a lot of guys my age think that's funny, too, but I'm the guy who will say out loud what everyone else is thinking. In case you haven't noticed, GaG is the same. Tells it like it is, no ass-kissing or sugar-coating, although he's been so nice on this board lately sometimes I'm not sure its him.
Actually you are technically correct that SOME Kgirls get 10 customers on SOME dayS, but generally half or more of them are 30 minute customers. The last girl I knew that did 10 one-hour appointments three days in a row ended up on an IV drip in the hospital for several days for severe dehydration. She almost died. It scared her so bad she went back to her old job as a hairdresser in Seoul. One of my regulars saw this happen the other day. She had 7 one hour customers and her roommate had seven 30-minute customers and 2 hour customers. Her roommate actually finished before she did, even though she had 9 customers total. BBFS girls are more likely to see 30-min customers and therefore see 10 in a day because its not GFE, its just drop your load and get out. There's not time for DATY, but obviously, who wants that from a BB girl anyway? Although, I have heard that there are some cumdrinkers out there that don't care whether they get it by way of a kgirl or direct from a guy. Lol (You got me, now I'm dissing a whole subset of guys who like to swallow cum.)
There are some girls who can't take the heat so they get out of the kitchen. We all know some of the girls who couldn't take the volume and just quit. The lifestyle is pretty grueling.
I've been on record for saying many times that I'd be willing to pay a lot more if girls would be more rested and have less back to backs. Because, more stamina for mongers and happier girls. Again, I know many girls who said they didn't have dinner when I see them at 9,10 or 11,because they'd be working straight from lunch to the point I'd see them. That's fucking insane.
There are not too many things worse when you're ready to fuck with a rock hard dick and the girl is stalling because the previous customer fucked her for too long. And it just snowballs.
Fair enough about dissing, I just dislike the condescending tone. I guess, that's pot calling kettle black, but I'd like to think that most subsets of mongers behave similarly. Most mongers don't get bld, are respectful and girls are happy to see them. There are irresponsible, rude assholes in every subcategory imo.
at the end of 2008, the standard break was 30 minutes. A girl had time to do all of the cleanup and prep between appointments and then rest for 15 minutes before the next appointment. In those days, I rarely saw a Kgirl, even in the evening, who was tired. Demand exploded from 2012 to 2014 and the bookers started pushing the girls to see more customers in a day so the break time was reduced to 15 minutes. Then I believe it was booker M in LA around 2016 who first started scheduling ten minute breaks. Now, I try not to schedule evening appointments, because the more mature (36-40 age) Kgirls that I prefer are sometimes starting to show fatigue for their last couple of appointments.
You are correct about late dinners. Most will not eat until after their last customer. That's why my current outside girlfriend's last appointment is at 8:00p, finished by 9:00. She has enough regulars that she averages only two spots a day for new customer appointments. If these don't fill, she will eat a midday snack, but the only meal she gets once her schedule has started for the day is at the very end, after her last customer has left and she has removed her makeup, usually about 9:30. Consider that some girls START their last customers at 9:00 or 10:00pm. Many eat around midnight, then get up at 8:00 in the morning and do it all over again. Kgirls are amazing in their work ethic and stamina, IMO.