That's too much time
Why is a subpar offering making that money off mongers in that time period?
Private complain, as opposed to public complain, help her make that money during that time. A public complain on day one prevents her and the org from making money and helps our others.
Looking for kgirls who like toy play incorporated into the session. Any one have any experience bringing toys to add to the session?
sag
Edit: I should’ve searched first. Many posts. But I’m interested in girls from the current Bay Area stock. A certain girl I saw recently was TOTALLY into it, to the point where I had her airtight with my cock in her throat. Please respect her anonymity if you know who, but I’m hooked. So much fun!
-- Modified on 1/26/2022 11:20:19 AM
I think the [relative] consensus was that it's very ymmv and as many ymmv things its not considered to be good etiquette posted publicly. Unless the girl herself is open to everyone knowing, but you don't really know when she feels like that. Not eveb what she tells you can be taken as the truth...
Similar to kgirls who open up backdoor for some folks, but not for everyone.. since a magnum can ruin them.
in agreement. Toy play is highly individualized. I have only had girls want to do it where we had an above-average connection built over time, and never met a girl where a new customer could expect that on the first meeting, regardless of whether he heard that she does it with her regulars. This is why there are far less references to toys in Reviews than actually takes place in the biz. My advice to the OP is just ask one of his regulars. When you're a regular, there is already a good connection and you're not starting from scratch.
I’ll just have to do the exploration. My next deep dive as far as relationship building will be with Nixie, but mums the word on the outcome.
Cheers, guys!
sag
is she really early 20's? Good choice and good luck, Sag.
People have joked that she looks like Jane March
Early 20’s. Ah, those were the days! On a good day you could convince me soundly that she’s under 30 but she is pretty damned hot if you ask me. Girls like her, Kira and the now gone Kendall are the standard I seek these days. None in early 20’s but all pretty close in the WYSIWYG department. I’ve gotten in some hot water of late with bookers for trying to hold the standard. My rep has saved me but I can’t see a 5 behind the door that advertises as a 9 without saying something. That’s another thread that I’ll prolly find has already been beaten like a dead horse if I use the search.
Thanks for the replies, guys!
sag
Is Nixies service really all that? I know she's considered good looking but everything I've heard points to average service.
I was very late to the Annabel train and still kicking myself for not getting on it earlier before she left. but that girl gave me some wild fucksessions once she stopped overacting, lol. Since I couldn't see Kimmy because well LSC screening, she was the best "new" bbbj artist I've seen. No hand bbbj technique all the way.
Oh and sag, tell Kira to come back. Pen is kinda barren. Btw, Bomi at SA is using Ji Youngs [fake] pics.... if that rings a bell. Jiyoung was an older girl and not a looker but great service.
where I requested a new girl and had the booker tell me she's not my type and I wouldn't like her. The first time a booker does that, I'm always effusive with my thanks and tell them that this kind of info gives me confidence to see more of his/her girls. A few times, I ignored the warning and saw her anyway, and regretted it. A booker like this wants a long-term business relationship and is taking a chance by waving you off of a girl that is not like the ones you normally repeat with, so I make sure they know that's the kind of service that will pay off for THEM in the long run. That's how you avoid having a 5 behind the door that you are expecting will be better than that.
Exactly!
Without developing at least some kind of history and possibly relationship with the booker, these situations are tough to avoid.
I know there are many who either don’t get it or think that it is a lie or a scam. But the absolute reality is that one person’s 5 can easily be another’s 7 or maybe even 8. You just can’t really know.
So, what you have to do is build in checks and balances into your process.
* Ping mongers who have seen the girl and see how they describe her appearance. Not the rating. The description.
* Develop some sort of reputation and, if you can, rapport with the booker. As CDL says, the good ones will pay attention and give you guidance. Other threads have covered how to improve your chances of getting good feedback from bookers/POs.
* When reading reviews don’t pay too much attention to the numbers. They can be very misleading sometimes. Read the whole review. Read those with low ratings and high ratings. Compare the descriptions.
Interestingly, the more you do the above, you’ll find that you have to do it less. Because you’ll develop a feel for how many mongers write reviews.
aspects as well.
If you expect a booker to be able to provide any useful feedback to you about how well matched the lady and you will be you have to have been willing to provide both positive comments and constructive criticism (not negative/adversarial but neutral and objective) to that booker. That has to be a key part of the relationship building work.
We need to classify what neutral and objective means.
Is telling a booker that the woman is 20 years older and 20 pounds heavier than her pics and you are dissatisfied immensely a "neutral or objective" statement?
I think it is, but some might disagree. Many bookers though will not like this statement even if it's a 100% true and factual statement. Let's say it happens five times in a span of two months, do you keep telling the booker this? Many bookers have such a short fuss they will not take kindly to it.
context of this discussion to convey your unhappiness with YOUR OWN selection in a way that would encourage the booker to look out for you next time? This seems like another example of how you handle things in a way that gives your such a high percentage of unsatisfactory sessions.
What are you even talking about?
Because it's my own selection, then I can't express disappointment? Huh?
If I get someone 20 years older and 20 pounds heavier than what I expect, why does it matter whose selection was it?
So you come to a steakhouse, order prime rib off the menu, proceed to get a mickey ds welldone patty and then when you express disappointment you're told "it was your own selection"? Lolwut.
So, when the booker knows who I see, and I comment on the session, they should know which way to direct me when I ask about a certain girl, right?
I've run across where the booker doesn't really know about the girls they book, at least that's what they say.
These are bookers that I have a good texting/business relationship with.
Also, the girls I ask, when it comes up, don't even know, or barely know, the booker or their name!
I wonder if it has to do with multiple bookers with one girl!
It all gets lost in the shuffle!
Have you run into any of them, bookers & girls not knowing who they work with?
I'll start giving more feedback and see where it goes.
I think east and west have somewhat different situations that will mean difference experiences so that would be one aspect. I also agree that some of those you interact with over the phone will not know - I'm not trying to make a universal claim here.
See my comment to useyrhead for perhaps a better statement of the point I was making.
Just to circle back to the actual OP topic. I am less sure that you will get much feedback from a booker related to any willingness or preference for playing with toys during a session. I would be surprised by that -- but since that is not my thing not something I've ever given any thought to much less asked/commented about.
-- Modified on 1/28/2022 1:19:07 PM
-- Modified on 1/28/2022 1:19:37 PM
manages the girls. There are a few orgs where the bookers also manage the rotation of touring girls. So the girls dealt directly with the booker in setting up their employment and should know who he/she is. More often, the rotation of touring girls is handled by the org owners, not the booker, so it's possible that that girl does not know the booker well the first day or two. However, the text messages the girls get regarding the day's scheduling usually identify the booker by the name he/she is using and sometimes with the prefixes "booker-" or "PO-". After the first day, they are solid co-workers with a singular goal . . . . to make money.
Girls are warned not to give out ANY information about anybody at the org, so if they think YOU don't know who the booker is, they will feign not to know either. Bookers waste a lot of time with unscreened guys trying to scam them into thinking they have already been approved. All the scammers need is the booker's name, which is often posted by newbies on this board. Then the booker gets a text from a guy he doesn't know who addresses him by name. Bookers will automatically pass on a screening that starts like this because they feel that if the guy's number is not in his database, he's faking familiarity to try to avoid a normal screening.
Finally, if a booker says he/she doesn't know anything about a certain new girl, you should pass. They usually ask their regular customers about new girls and how the session went so they know if she's a good recommendation for others. When asking about a girl you want to book, if all you can get out of the booker is that "she's available", I suggest telling the booker that if he gets some positive feedback from other guys who have seen her, let you know. Otherwise, you will wait for some reviews.
As always, your argument is well thought through and reasonable. I understand what you are saying. And I think that, in an ideal world, that would be how it worked.
But I don’t believe that many people are like that. And I think we’re all pretty accustomed to reading between the lines of another person’s subjective opinions.
Sure, I think it’s worthwhile to try to be objective. But subjective is just fine. As long as you are consistent. Most people can work just fine with subjective feedback as long as it is consistent.
Agree and I was being short on explanation so not clear.
It's less about the subjective versus objective aspect and more about how you communicate, the tone. When being critical about something you didn't like it's easy to come across as blaming the other for your being unhappy or not satisfied with what you got. Often that is not a justified tone to have taken. Generally, even if you do have cause to place blame doing so seldom accomplishes anything positive while avoiding creating the confrontational setting might actually produce an improved situation.
So for me I think the two aspects -- having provided the consistent indication of your own tastes AND having done so in a non-confrontational tone -- are both needed if you expect someone else to help you out. The first providing the ability for them to be able to do so. The second an incentive to do so (or better, lack of incentive not to do so).
Exactly Jensen. It's one's tone and politeness that will get positive results in the future. When the Little Felcher Boy says "Is telling a booker that the woman is 20 years older and 20 pounds heavier than her pics and you are dissatisfied immensely a "neutral or objective" statement?", he's focusing on the negative, and will likely get poor results from that booker in the future IF he doesn't get bl'd for being a jerk for saying it that way. A reasonable, mature adult would say something like "Jane was a little older and heavier than I prefer. Next time you have a lady who is [age range] and [weight range] who provides [desired services] please let me know and I'd love to see her." The booker will understand that you didn't enjoy your time with Jane, and assuming that he wants your business in the future he'll turn you on to a lady who meets your style and who he expects will rock your world. Maybe even the booker will tell her that you had a below average session in your last visit with Jane and ask her to treat you really nicely. If he does then you say "thanks" and reward that booker with more business soon. On the other hand if the next lady is also a dud who doesn't fit your age/weight preference then you move on to a new or different booker and realize that the first booker doesn't give a shit about your business. Eventually either you'll find a booker that you click with or you'll realize that no booker can satisfy your expectations.
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From what I see here our Little Felcher Boy always focuses on the negative, and believes that management/booker is his enemy. That's his choice, but as someone who has managed various business for the past 40+ years I can assure you his way is a recipe for failure in any business or relationship.
If you get a good that is so off its advertisement you actually have no fun in consuming the good; ie mega false advertisement, who is to blame? People get pissed when they're fed lies and they are pissed they wasted time.
How is that not justifiable? Who else is to blame for a girl who is 20 years older and 20 pounds heavier? Especially when a booker swears on his children these are real and actual pics?
Everywhere else a customer would be fucking livid. But in this biz we're supposed to sit quiet and be extremely polite when we're bent over?
This is exactly what empowers agencies and bookers and girls and make them trip on power. They think they're God's gift by merely existing and they're doing everyone an amazing favor. Newsflash: we pay money and expect certain level of accommodation for that money. And agencies bookers and kgirls don't exist without mongers. But mongers can and do exist without agencies bookers and kgirls. We are the ones keeping it afloat, not them.
Actually, many guys do complain when they have a substandard session. You just don't see it because it happens directly with the booker and not in a public forum. My favorite places will boot a bad one within 2-3 days, so there isn't even time to leave a negative review since they are gone already. Obviously this isn't true of every place, but it is one of the reasons why I go where I go.
Top top agencies in SoCal tend to not waste any time moving the substandard girls on to smaller markets where the guys are just happy to have a Kgirl, ANY Kgirl.
That's too much time
Why is a subpar offering making that money off mongers in that time period?
Private complain, as opposed to public complain, help her make that money during that time. A public complain on day one prevents her and the org from making money and helps our others.
"If you get a good that is so off its advertisement you actually [would] have no fun in consuming the good" then why not leave? If you know immediately from her weight and age that you won't have fun with a KGirl then leave. Why would you care if the girl or the booker get mad? Save your money, get on the bus/BART, and go home. Text the booker and explain to him/her that the girl didn't look like her pictures, that she was substantially heavier and/or older than her pictures - but say it nicely and politely and constructively - and then look for another KGirl from a different booker. And if the booker bl's you for walking out who cares? What's worse, feeling like you've been ripped off or going back to the same booker and getting ripped off again?
BL'd who took the time to explain in detail why a session was so bad with a particular girl. As you say, it has to be done diplomatically so that it's clearly constructive and not just whiney. After a bad session also a good time to give the booker your preferences and ask if he can let you know when new girls arrive that fit your preferred body/type or services.
I am beginning to think that all this coverage (pardon the pun) that blacklisting is getting is essentially equivalent to clickbait.
Blacklisting sounds horrible. And, when and if it happens, it is not fun. From what I’ve seen actual blacklisting, especially the nearly mythical global blacklist “you’ll never monger in this town again” is very rare. When I was helping to run a monger forum I had a few mongers on the forum who had been blacklisted from an org come to me and ask advice. Every time I was able to show them how to resolve their issue and clear the blacklist over time. But it does virtually always require the monger to recognize and own the fact that they made mistakes (though sometimes quite minor) that led to the blacklisting. I have known only one monger who simply could not accept that fact.
Can blacklisting occur because of a misunderstanding on the part of someone at the org? Certainly. People have bad days. But it’s quite unusual for that to happen if the monger has actually done nothing to trigger the response. Frankly, though I know it is possible, I’ve never looked into any such occurrence where the monger had no responsibility for the problem.
Blacklisting, in my experience, is one of the most preventable issues in mongering. But only for people who are willing to change their behavior.
Still, even with independent girls misunderstandings occur that result in a girl blocking a particular monger’s calls. This is a risk that can only be minimized in the sex industry. You just can’t eliminate it entirely.
Except to the die hard BBFS fans out there, wearing a condom is a no brainer precaution that has very significant benefits to all involved. The same type of thinking that leads a monger to always wear a condom is involved when modifying monger behavior to reduce the risk of being blacklisted.
I am fully aware of the self proclaimed “pro monger” advocate (is there more than one?) who would be outraged at the suggestion that a monger might be at fault (innocently or otherwise) for getting blacklisted. They are entitled to their beliefs. And the consequences that come with acting in accordance to those beliefs.
If we want to have a discussion on blacklisting, though, we should be responsible forum members and start a dedicated thread on the topic. I’ll be happy to repost this if someone thinks there is actual reason for further discussion and starts a thread.
-- Modified on 1/29/2022 3:41:02 AM
First, thanks for actually discussing and not calling me names. Very appreciated. I'll even let go of the bart/bus jab.
Second, I generally agree with your sentiment. However, my reply was to Jensen who said a reply to booker should be neutral. I merely asked if saying the girl was 20 years older and 20 pounds heavier counts as a constructive feedback. You and I agree it does. Great. There are some grumpy ass bookers who don't like any feedback like that.
I think its a bit trickier with the last one. People who treat orgs as secret societies and wait a year to get in might not want to cut losses after one or even several of such sessions. My point of view is that a monger should have a right to walk without consequence as many times as long as the advertised good is not up to par (20y off and 20 pounds off should be good enough reason). But habitual walkers to get bld and ppl do get threatened and at least bluffed. So I think mongers start doing expected value calculation and see if the amount of good sessions cancel out the subpar sessions in the long run. If they do they are willing to let go of the bad ones. I'm not, of course.
So if all one has to do to avoid the 5s is listen to the booker's advice, then how do the 5s actually get business? I'd imagine not many mongers actually want the 5s.
Something doesn't add up here.
Who among mongers get the fives? Is it noobs who "have to" get whoever the booker recommends initially to boost their biz?
Like I say, it sounds like a pyramid system instead of a flat system. Where you have to go through some idiotic rite of passage to be able to get higher quality girls. And the bottom base of the pyramid is the one that feeds the rest of the pyramid.
Now why can't it be fair - if there are fives, just don't let them work for your agency. Boom. Now everyone gets high quality. Have pics that are close representation of both body and face. Boom. Now disappointment is cut to a minimum. Get rid of subpar product that is past the expiration date.
I should not waste my time because I think you might be playing dumb on purpose just to get the attention, but I'll take ONE shot and see where it goes.
If you read the other comments here, we are talking about the booker learning your preferences based on your feedback and, in my case, taking note of the girls I repeat with. If I'm repeating with girls that have a certain look and are known for excellent services of the type I seek, then it's safe for the booker to both recommend girls to me that are similar, and warn me off of the girls that are not even close to the ones I repeat with.
Obviously, this is not something you can do in a few weeks. You have to have a history for a booker to be able to help you find the girls you want and avoid the ones you don't. This is one reason why I have said over the years to Newbies go stick with ONE agency when you are just starting out. Be a good customer with ONE booker and he will take care of you. After you have seen all of his/her girls a few times, then get a ref to another agency and do the same thing there. How fast you can get to this place depends on how deep your pockets are and how often you can see Kgirls.
When it comes to scores, there is a reason the SAME girl can get a five and also get an eight or nine. Looks are subjective. Service, less so, but some girls are better at certain activities, and the guys who like those activities will score her higher. This is an individual sport, not a team sport.
I'm not going to argue with you about stuff that has been working in this biz for years, so if you don't want to use this try to improve your own experience, then I don't think I can help you further on this subject.
“I think you might be playing dumb on purpose just to get the attention”
Judging by the replies he seems to be, as ever, picking and choosing pieces of the argument that let him launch one of his repetitive rants.
I’m pretty sure we talked about recommendations from bookers being only part of what you need to do to ensure success. And we also talked about, as you just mentioned, the fact that focusing on number ratings - as he so loves to do - is a recipe for failure.
So, so many times you and others, including even me, have talked about paying attention to the details and even frequently disregarding (though not always) the numeric ratings.
And your very well done description of the differences between illegal businesses and those that you can actually report to the BBB (and no, I didn’t accidentally leave off the “J” at the end) really shatters almost the entire basis of his argument.
But, of course he will carefully extract pieces of the argument that allow him to continue to feed his narcissistic hunger for attention and feelings of influence over others. Right when he was starting to do a bit better with making useful replies again.
For everyone else, though, there is some good, useful content being put out here. Even though he is doing his best to obfuscate it with his frequently long winded and nearly always off target - and not uncommonly off topic - rants.
-- Modified on 1/28/2022 12:03:34 AM
Yeah, I know. Not even our local narcissist actually says we should report k-orgs to anyone but other mongers.
But I can just imagine trying to get your fellow customers to stop doing business with your local bookie or loan shark because they can be treated better elsewhere.
I just thought I’d share this little bit of humor with everyone on this chilly (to a Californian) Friday morning.
Yes, looks are subjective but most would agree that a whale won't be scored a 9 on looks scale.
There are girls who are fives for almost everyone, and are scored accordingly on review sites.
How do they get biz? They shouldn't get biz but they get it. And why do they get biz? After some initial feedback the booker/agency should get the memo and boot the girl, if they actually care about customer satisfaction and not the numbers on the dotted line.
You've already said it, I just want to see you repeat explicitly. As a newbie you say take the girl that the booker recommends. And he/she will recommend the worst possible girl, right - the ones who need bookings.
So, the newbies and people without a "relationship" are the ones who are getting the fives, right?
Hence me saying its a fucking pyramid with idiotic "rite of passage" garbage.
I said take the booker recommendation when it is your first session at THAT org, and you are trying to get your foot in the door. If the booker clears you to see your first girl, and you refuse the one he says is "available", he may not give you another chance and now you start over trying to get screened at a different org. Think of it as taking one for yourself rather than TOFTT. "Whales" are very rare among Kgirls, but there are a lot of girls who are "curvy" that could stand to lose 15-20 pounds. Again, once the booker knows what you like, if you are a regular customer, he/she will steer you in the right direction if you ask.
Except perhaps for the first few days, the booker may not have seen a new girl yet, but as soon as he makes his first house-money pickup, he will know what body type she is and can attest accordingly. Some orgs pick up the money from touring girls nightly, others every few days. With permanent girls it may be once a week.
I'm not msquoting anything. I thought we agreed that there are subpar offerings.
You're now trying to twist it like there aren't any subpar offerings for everyone, as someone likes one thing and another another and there are no outright substandard offerings that pretty much everyone should pass on.
What I'm saying is why should substandard offerings even make any money or be in the biz? They shouldn't. Get rid of them. That they make as much as legends because of the flat pay scale is preposterous.
But orgs are slow to get rid of girls who don't meet standards. And while they are there they continue to make money. And if the girl is unpopular and is free, guess who the booker gonna guide a newbie to?
That's what I'm saying when I'm speaking about the pyramid system. The substandaed offerings shouldn't be distributed to noobs or people who don't know no better.
Remember mufftime/Toungsten? When I blasted one of Ms girls who was awful publicly he wrote "M knows that the girl is bad and trying to get rid of her". OK sure. She was gone in maybe a week. And a month or two later, guess who shows up at Michelle's again? The same damn girl who shouldn't be in this biz and who didn't mean bare minimum kgirl service standards. Then when I pointed out hypocrisy he said something like "it's all about the numbers". So a booker/org openly invited the girl back knowing that customers didn't like her. Because cahs rules everything around you.
In such scenarios with other goods and products, it's well within customer rights to go to a public platform and ccampaign and urge people to stop giving money to shitty companies that make bad goods and have bad ethics.
All of the girls I've had toy-play with have initiated it, or at least given me clear hints of willingness. Once I see these, I can offer a toy or two and see where it gets me.
.
Maybe I have missed chances by not asking first, but maybe I have avoided bad reactions too.
Even though I have no interest in toys during a session some seem to be like you. It has come up occasionally but not that well discussed. Kudos for adding signal rather than noise.
Seems like the thread has lived its life and not heading to the right margin so that's unfortunate (but expected these days).
Hoping that others will consider the 4 levels idea and just stop replying at this point as it's now all off topic. Consider that a PSR -- request not announcement.