In a way you have touched a place in the heart of every guy in this forum (wether they want to admit or not).

Lets start with the girl who is screwing a loser. Some women never outgrow the hots for bad boys. Sure, screwing bartenders, drug addicts, former inmates, bikers, alchoholics, drug pushers, unemployed losers is exiting to them. It provides entertainment and drama. Believe me that if she lived with a guy who had his life in order and was drama free that she would so bored that she would be sucking ball-shiner at redskins game's cock. Also believe it or not it is a challenge to keep him. She knows that keeping and fighting for him him is important because around the corner there is another girl with the hots for bad boys. And he wont have any problem screwing her friends or any hot waitress, secretary, nurse, teacher that crosses his path.

Women are nurturers by nature. So taking care of this lost soul will make her feel empowered. He gets to screw her in the process. And in turn he starts to resent her overprotectiveness and controlling nature, thus leading to fights. She unknowingly sees him as a surrogate son but he is also her sex partner. What a horrible thought.

Plus women have this give to get strategy. Take this hobby for example. They give up the ass for $$$. They give special treatment to some hobbyists for rave reviews that lead to more $$$. Well, in this case she endures the frustration (yes it is frustrating to live with a loser) spends way more money and energy than he does trying to make the relationship work. Puts up with his drug addiction, drinking, and even cheating because she actually thinks that he is such a sweet, good hearted dude underneath the tattoos, drugs, rap-sheet and ignorance. yes, she thinks she can change him and bring out that nobel prize canidate, ideal husband, father and businessman that resides deep down in his soul.

My question to the threadstarter.

Did you ever try to have sex with her? Did you ever take the initiative and try to get her clothes off? If not then you have only yourself to blame for the situation you are in.

If you did try and she rejected your advances. If she was really a cool woman I would have tried once more. If the results were the same than it would have been time to abandon ship, recuperate (yes, to some of us who are not skirt chasers rejection can take a while to get over), and look for the next woman worth pursuing.

My experience on the subject. If from the get go if you were the gentleman, trying to woo her with support and encouragement. Well, you set the table for absolutely nothing. If she is attractive (and I have never met a woman ever, that did not have at least 1 attractive characteristic) then she is no stranger to petty flattery from guys trying to screw her. Sometimes the stars are alligned right and they get some play. Sometimes they keep at it and things happen or not. But they dont take it to heart. You made it clear from the beginning that you wanted to be member of her support group than her group of suitors. I don't even think that she appreciates the support you gave her. All the while after all the support you gave her, and some other random dude gets her in bed.  Very sorry it had to turn out this way but learn from it and dont make the same mistake again.

There is this girl I have always had the hots for but claims I am too nice.  A while back she was living with her boyfriend who threw her out of his apartment for some dumb misunderstanding.  She was sobbing and incoherent when she called me.  I offered to let her move in with me free of charge, no hanky panky and I would even help her find a job here in DC.  A few days before she would have come, she called me to say she and he made up and all was ok.  I was so POed. I told her not to call me again as long as she was with him and that she deserved better.  It has been a few months now and she has not called but she did send me a few  emails complaining about her lack of a job and another guy.  I have not responded yet.  I do not want to be an enabler yet I still care for her.  

Just yesterday, NBC ran an arlticle to say that nice people tend to make less money than jerks in the workplace.  I am getting too old for this BS.  Maybe I should shave my head, get nipple rings, ear studs and some tatoos of devils and fire, start drinking hard liquor and riding a motorcycle. I hate my f'ing lonely life This is why I see providers.  At least in one hour increments, the lies are believable and I do get the girl.   Sorry to vent- Please feel free to flame, shame, defame, and blame.  That is the norm these days on this board.

I hear ya Annubis! I totally get played as the nice guy. Why just last week I was out with two gals that are relatively new friends (~6 months), both early forties, attractive and divorced. I have helped both of them with little repair projects around their houses on several occasions. So we are out at a bar and they start talking about how hard it is to find just pure great sex without entanglements. I of course volunteered to be of service. They looked at me like I had two heads.  They didn't say it but I could see it in their eyes, I'm the "nice" guy and in their book I might as well be gay. Texted both of them a few days later just to say hi and no response. I have a feeling I won't hear from them again until their dishwasher breaks or something. I have a feeling I just might not be available next time.

As for your gal, I'd say you are doing the right thing. Let her twist in the wind. No more white knight.

Oh and I have a buddy who is an executive at a fortune 500 company. M to F he is suit and tie and almost never gets a gal. For the weekend he rides a custom chopper and hangs with bikers and he swims in pussy.

Let me start off by saying this...I've always been a dick to women. I'm the best of friends to my boys and my family, but not to women. In fact, I don't even believe in female friends. What's the point? To have a shoulder to cry on? Boo Hoo. Sorry, I can't deal well with drama and nit-picky people. Life's too fucking short.

Most women, not all, have insecurities, just like men. They want to be accepted, told they're beautiful, desired, charmed, feel protected, and appreciated. Whether they admit it or not, they like feeling secure with a man in the sense he will "protect" her and be able to step up when needed. They want to be able to brag about their man when it pertains to certain things...even at the cost of him treating her bad at times. Women don't like to see their man taken by another woman...he's their territory and women can get nasty about their territory. The "bad boy" phenomenon is nothing new.

They like a man with a confidence and swagger about him: the confidence he eminates when he talks, the way he carries himself, his assertive decision making, etc. He knows what he wants and goes and gets it without fear of failure. If you were an attractive woman, what would you prefer???

The way I always look at it and handle myself is this; if not you, then there's always someone else. I'm a hobbyist because I've tired of the BS from the civvie world...for now. I don't give a flying fuck what anyone thinks about why I hobby...I like the simplicity and the fact that I don't have to worry about a woman calling me/texting me complaining I don't go out with her, hang out with her, listen to her bitching. I'm a bit older, but don't look it at all. I'm very successful, been married (cheated all too often), mostly dated women half my age after divorce. Funny thing is after my ex found out about my infidelity, she still wanted to work it out. Wtf?! I still don't understand that lack of self-esteem to this day. Honestly, I'm slightly above average in looks (whatever average is), but I always am told that I have a presence about me that exudes confidence and no BS. The thing is, for some reason, I always end up dating/fucking hot women. No, I don't go in a conversation saying, "hey, my name is xxxxx, I work here for a living and look outside at my car".

She looks at you as "the fall back". You're 2nd, 3rd, or 4th fiddle. You're "such a great friend" and she knows she can get you to do whatever, whenever. No offense, but you're her Forrest Gump...she's Jenny, at least up to the point where she's about to die. Why would you want to be a consolation prize? It's better being alone than being with someone who settled for you. It'll all surface in time. Don't seek it, it'll come to you. I never go out looking for ass, but it will always come if you handle yourself. Go work out. Go change your wardrobe. Don't go looking for it and force it.

Again, the old addage that nice guys finish last...not always true, but seems it. So based on nbc's article, yeah, I'm a successful jerk. Wanna know what's funny? I'm very respectful to providers...

Don't settle just because you feel lonely...you'll regret it. Hang in there...good things will come if you let them. Be thankful for what you DO have, don't focus on what you DON'T. Fuck that girl. I mean, forget her...See? you don't respond and after a bit she emails you? Too funny.

Your old enough to know, people like to take advantage of nice people. Nice people are more eager, willing, gullible, hard to say no, lack of self confidence, lack of prestige, and the list continues.

I am a nice guy, but just got tired of people taking advantage of me. I had to change that--to which I did. Felt better ever since. Only hang around with people that "respect" you and not "use" you. Don't be the guy that she turns to when she is in need. You are only there for her security, welfare, emotional support, the guy she turns to, the second, third, or fourth guy she needs calls when times are tough, and everything in between. If she's a true friend, this would never have take place. She would have invited you to dinner, go bowling, or something of that nature. But never call you for financial assistant or security reasons. "You still care for her"? You know what that sounds like right? Being in high school all over again.

As for the people that take advantage of "nice people", they r scumbags. They pray on the weak like leaches and vampires. Anyways, I did a study on abusive relationships when I was in college. Girls don't like bad guys, they are use to the experience, was raised in that particular environment, and they need that masculinity figure or "bad boy" figure to suppress or stabilize their emotional and metal dilemma. There are plenty of girls out there!! Those that like abusive relationships r use to it, and they think its natural and accept it as a common occurrence.

The part about you hate "being lonely". I wish I was solitary-- too much drama with dealing with every1 in my life. Believe me, things change. You meant lonely as not having an SO (i.e. girlfriend)? You think you'll be solitary forever? I am assuming that you are a young man--believe me brother, you ain't gonna be solitary forever!!

Advice: Fuck those mother fuckers that you think are you friends (determine and write down what the characteristics of friendship means). It always works better that way (dropping her), at least you don't have to deal with one less scumbag. Remember, nice people play together, and bad people play together. Anyways, excuse me for being the voice of your mother, but cheer up man. Shit, you almost made me want to give you a motivational hug. You got a job? You got a house? You are secure? The bitches will come for that. Believe me, you ain't gonna be lonely for to long. Just be careful of those bitches that take advantage of you. I've learned my lesson, just a heads up man. Cheer up brother!!

Yes many women love men who are compleat assholes. You will drive your self crazy trying to figure this out. It must be phycological, some kind of cehmical imbalance in the brain. You see theses women bounce from one abusive relationship to another. It starts in there teens and many continue this cycle for a life time. Let me ad this isn't exclusive to women or straight couples, I have always found bad/crazy women to be atractive and quite a good fuck.
I would hold off on the tats and piercings, nothing worse than a nice guy who looks like a douche bag. Ladies?

Whining, clingy, male bitches are not on women's to do  list.

 If your rap sucks, it's better to not say much.



 

Yes Im still here. I have lose ends to tie up so Ill be lurking for the rest of the week.
Anyway...
I know what she may have meant by "you're too nice" but I believe you are taking it the wrong way so please, for the sake of all the nice girls out there, don't turn into a jerk!
Women want a take charge man who is confident and mentally/emotionally strong.
Even if we are strong women and have our own job and everything we want to feel like we have a big strong man on our side. Im not referring to size when I say big strong man.
Its great when a man is respectful and sweet but if you're letting her make every decision like where to dine, what activities to do, when to have sex and so on then you're boring. Im sorry but its true.
Try being more assertive. Dont call and say, "Uh hi um can I take you to dinner. Where do you want to go" Instead call her and say, "I made reservations for _______, I'll pick you up at 8" Let her know who's in charge while still being nice. Dont say "bitch Im pullin' up at 8 and ya better be ready" Lol j/k
When in the bed room ravish her! Make her feel sexy.
When dating plan adventurous dates that show her you're a man. Go hiking, white water rafting, whatever just be manly and dont scream if the raft flips : ) Make decisions and let her be the lady.
Are you shy or something? Maybe its time for a life changing experience. Go skydiving and jump out of everything that bounds you. Sign up for some kind of thrill seeker/adventure weekend. You can find various trips online. You've gotta be a MAN! Snap out of it dammitt, you're a big strong man...you're a hunter. Not a gatherer! PLUS with your attitude you'll never get a girl. Walk around confident that you'll find a great girl. Women feed off of a mans confidence. We can sense a man with out it and its a turn off so puff up your chest and walk tall and confident. The universe puts things in your life that you dwell on...keep thining you'll be single forever and you will.

Women that date the "bad boy" type of guy are just confused. They are taking some of his bad traits and confusing them with how a real man is assertive.

If all else fails watch the show "millionaire matchmaker" Patty does a good job of telling men the hard core truth about why they are single and you're not the only one being told "you're too nice"

You'll get a nice girl!

do not ever contact her again, and do not ever respond to any communication from her.  she used you.  she is a loser.  she is scum.  erase her email and phone number.  forget she exists.

don't be a pussy. be a man.  go get some pussy.

I don't know of any girls who shows interest in a jerk on first site.  maybe after she has started to seriously date him, it helps to keep things a challenge but definitely not initially.

Needless to say, I'm an advocate that First impression needs to be the nice guy. now what we  do and how we present ourselves after establishing the gentlemen image is another.

Not sure about the sadistic ones but sane ladies seek a gentlemen, I'm a very nice, sincere guy and never had any problem in my life getting the lady I want. Some take a lot of patience some take a lot of mind games, but some ladies do prefer sincerity, honesty, and being spoiled and pampered to a certain extent. Knowing when too much of a good thing is too much is a trick that a guy needs to learn in order to keep the girl on her toes...

Maybe I am too drunk and my mind is in a fairy tale land, but I still think there really exists something called true love and destiny. Some people are just "meant to be" and sometimes you just want to be yourself and cut out all the bull shit games. Pretending to be anything one is not is actually worse than being a nice guy. imho

Now, regarding being truthful and honest, a bigger problem is keeping one's dick in one's pants in a relationship, and I've been working on getting back on my feet. This hobby thing has  really screwed with my otherwise faithful, honest,  kind, and sincere nature. Maybe limiting to just one lady a week and slowly phasing out to see less would be a start.  as with quitting smoking, going cold turkey never works well.

Unless you are happy just having this woman as a friend, you did just about everything wrong IMHO.  Granted your motives are pure and it would seem that women would respond to such a thoughtful and heartfelt gesture.  They don't...

The reality, is despite years of Oprah and Cosmo women are completely clueless about themselves.  You will see many articles such as this in local newspapers from time to time, and women will claim that are looking for just such a "sensitive" guy... which is BS.  They "think" that is what they want, but their actions are always the opposite.

Look, you don't have to be a complete jerk, but don't be shy about letting women know what your expectations are.  Be confident that you are worth getting and it's their loss if they don't get that.  Just like with any negotiation in life, you have to be ready to turn and walk away at any point things are not progressing in a way beneficial to you.  If you want this woman to move in with you then let it be known that there will indeed be "hanky panky"... after all, that's what you really want right???

I think you'll get further being open about such things.  But yes, don't respond to her otherwise...waste of your time.

Thanks for taking time to post it. Everything you said made perfect sense to me. It is so helpful as your views are those of a woman not a bunch of guys, who despite what they say and how they act, are usually just clueless.

Your advise to check out The Millionaire Matchmaker is so on point. I confess, I never miss it..lol God some of those guys are jerks!! I learn what not to do ..ever!

Now, having established your credentials here, would you consider taking over The Love Goddess thread over on The Erotic Highway. She has moved on and the thread is just twisting in the wind..
Well? well?  lol..

Thanks again Sara and best of luck to you in what ever you undertake! Im sure you'll be successful.

of a relief to see that there are others in the club who are just as lonely as me. Perhaps we can start a lonely boys club and be collectively mean to women (j/k).  I even stopped asking girls out.  None of my dates have gone beyond 2nd date. Never had a gf in my life. Only had civvie sex two times. First time when when I lost my virginity at the age of 20 to some 40 year old woman, and then with a married woman at 24, who kicked me out of the house the next morning because she suddenly had a conscience attack. I thought she loved me, and wanted to be out of her crappy marriage.

Thanks to this hobby

Oh and on the bad boy note...I had a friend in college whom I helped through out the college. I helped him with homework. Saying that he passed his courses because of me would not be an overstatement. This guy is not only super successful in his career (not that I am a loser in anyway - I make 6 figure income myself) , but he can get women like he is some fukin' clone of Brad Pitt. Women just lust for him. He tells me all the time that he gets women because of the way he treats them (like shit...), but it is not for everybody. It has to be the "real" you, and you can't fake it too long.

Kudos to that friend of mine...!!!

No secret that women outnumber men in this geography.

My viewpoint is that scoring with civvies is largely a numbers and venue game. Put yourself out there and try different venues. Age appropriate targets help (not having any idea as to what age your are).

As for the femme fatale you reference, try the above and let her drift. Believe yourself in those moments when you know she is doing that to you.

The hobby will always be here as a respite, should your civvie pursuits progress slowly. Have fun and good luck.

END OF MESSAGE

"Do bad boys get the girls?" What you should be asking is what attracts women to so called, "bad boys" and how you can learn to attract them in the same way?

"All women are easy, you just have to know what buttons to push," is what just about every woman I've ever met told me in regards to women's sexuality. And I've found it to be true with few exceptions. The only thing that separates a platonic friend from a sexual friend is a challenge and sexual excitement with an emphasis on sexual excitement. Put the elements of sexual excitement and challenge into a "nice guy" and what do you have? Right, a "bad boy". Take the elements of sexual excitement and challenge out of a "bad boy" and what do you get? Correct again, a "nice guy".

She probably decided within the first minute or two of meeting you whether or not she was going to have sex with you. She also knows you want her and she knows she has no competition for you therefore, you offer her no challenge and no sexual excitement. Like it or not you are her platonic friend. Your only decision regarding her is whether you can live with just being her platonic friend or not.  

"I hate my f'ing lonely life". So what's preventing you from changing it? Keep doing what you've been doing and you'll keep getting what you've been getting which clearly is making you unhappy.

We use TER as a resource in this hobbying subculture of ours to learn from and share experiences so we can make more informed decisions while avoiding potential pitfalls. Similarly, there are vast resources available in another subculture known as PUA that you may find useful. When it comes to your happiness, a little research time and effort are well worth the investment. Hope it helps and good luck!

Maybe I should shave my head, get nipple rings, ear studs and some tattoos of devils and fire, start drinking hard liquor and riding a motorcycle.

Dude, it doesn't work believe me because I did just that at 50 hahaha. I will say I have enjoyed life a little more than before, but still P4P.

There are all types of women out there, some that like the bad boys, some that like the more conservative. As for the one you mentioned, yes, she is more likely to be with someone who abuses her, that's not someone you want to get into a long term relationship, but might want to toss around in the sack one in a while.

Write back to her and tell her any time she wants to come fuck, she is more than welcome, at least for an hour or so. Then she can return to her dysfunctional life and boy friend. What do you have to loose?

I never believe in helping girls when they cannot help themselves.  Unless she is a cross between Athena/Aphrodite and have a heart of Mother Teresa.

Before you help her, you should ask "What's in it for me?"  Simple sentence like that can help a lot.  Life is too grand to be stuck on some girl who doesn't care about positive things.  

Last year November, I was chasing a girl, she basically gave me the middle finger and make all kinds of excuses not to go out.  Afterwards, I changed my attitude.   I deleted all her emails, her phone number, her text messages.  I was glad I never took the effort to memorize her phone number.  So now she is 99% gone from my memory.   I went as far as deleting all those "attractive female friends" from my Facebook.  

So now, I say to all of those low life girls, don't waste some of us nice guys' time.  We have better things to do.  If you cannot fix your sink, go spend some money and hire a professional.

So what happened, from last month until now, I got three girls circling around me.  Once again, I give a out a "sigh" and said to myself, I only need one, I don't need three.  So now, I am trying to avoid seeing two of the girls.  I did not tell them to go away, I just make up excuses not to see them.

. . . that does not mean you can't be a nice guy. Being nice with an agenda is not exactly being nice.

Your confidence will show if you are nice because you want to and not because you want something in return. By the way, don't ever let your happiness be dependent on another person.

Sara, you beat me to it with your insightful comments and reaffirmed what I was going to say. On a side note You've got it all. Looks, personality, and sex appeal. I wish I could've seen you as a provider but I've enjoyed my interactions with you in my dealings with pure gf  You will truly be missed.

Back to topic. I've always looked pretty young for my age and it was a curse. I would ask women out but mostly got turned down so I stopped asking. I had very little self confidence. I did notice that women seemed more attracted to me when I was with someone else. As I've gotten into my 40's the looking young thing is paying off. Women seem to notice me more but I don't think I'm any better looking, I think it is that my self confidence is at an all time high. I look women in the eye. I start conversations with women and am not overly concerned with where it goes  The hobby helps immensely because I'm not stressed about getting laid. I can get it whenever I want it.
It's not about being a jerk, it's confidence but the fact that a woman will choose an ahole over a nice guy shows just how important the take-charge attitude is to women.
When you leave a session with a hot young lady that you really connected with and had a great time with don't you feel like a stud?  When you go back to work and deal with the office hottie that you are normally shy around, don't you feel more confident?  I know I do. The key is to maintain that attitude at all times. I can get laid by a lady that is better looking and better in bed so why should I be nervous around civvies?
Have you ever taken a provider to dinner? Try it and see how much more attention you get from women. Talk to the hot bartender or hostess. Flirt a bit. The next time go in without a date.
Bottom line is be confident. Don't be a jerk.

Take care

Bad boys get the girls because they for the most part do not place women on a pedestal and they except a certain level of treatment from any women. They are not going to act like a good guy or a bad guy. They are simply a guy who has respect for himself and therefore expects it in return. If a man wants woman than introduce yourself, chat with her, ask for her number, take her out somewhere she would like, and then keep asking her out until she says no, or starts to treat you in a manner that you will not accept from a womanr. Then stop asking her out if she continues. Repeat with next woman until you find one that does not seem to ever treat you in a manner less than what you expect. The woman you talked about was thrown out for a reason, a may or may not be a good reason to you or her but he will be respected for it. If there is no respect in your relationships with women there will be no love or caring or giving. Oh you may say but she is so HOT or whatever but to your "bad boy" she is just another woman who did not treat him how he wanted. You need to develop this attitude for your own standards. Not a standard of how pretty she is therefore you become extra nice. You should treat the woman who treat you best first and foremost. Just start asking the hottest women out first and repeat until you find a hot one who respects you too. BUT NEVER GET HUNG UP ON JUST ONE WITHOUT A GOOD HISTORY OF HER GREAT TREATMENT TOWARD YOU NO MATTER HOW PRETTY SHE IS.

BOTTOM LINE THERE ARE NO BAD BOYS OR NICE GUYS ONLY GUYS WHO UNDERSTAND WOMAN AND THOSE WHO DON'T.

...just doesn't seem like the right reason to want to be with her.

Not many ladies want to be with a guy who looks lonely.

If the OP was looking for a girl primarily because he's lonely, best to just find a SINGLE girl instead of obsessing over this rebounding unstable girl who has a boyfriend already.

brutal honesty.    I like that in a person.    

However, I'm pretty certain that most sane girls do not go for guys who give off the asshole / jerk image on first impression or even during early to mid stages of courtship. The stereotype is a bit overblown. The ladies I have been with all seem to favor gentlemen who is sincere, honest, and kind... Yet we can't be someone who is complete pussy-whipped butt kisser. LOL There's a big distinction between a hopeless pushover and a gentlemen who knows how to treat a women well.

Not sure what kind of sadistic women falls for a total dick. She must need psychiatric help.

None of my exes fell for me because I was mean to them. I was very nice to them and treated them well majority of the time, because that's what being in a relationship and falling for each other does.  During the late stages of the relationship, however, I can't say I was as nice as I was in the beginning. lol but that's just natural progression in any relationship, IMHO.

Back when I was 20 pounds lighter and better looking, I have dated 3 girls at the same time.

First incidence was just to see if I can pull it off. LOL  
Subsequent times, I just couldn't keep my dick in my pants after running into an irresistible cute girl.

I will admit it's A LOT of work and takes up a lot of time trying to appease the attention-requirements of 3 ladies.  On more than several occasions, I had to eat dinner more than once and see the same movie twice or thrice.... and pretend it was my first time seeing it. lol
It was a lot of fun while it lasted but I eventually got caught and word spread out. Not a fun scene along with broken hearts. Cost me a lot of money too not to mention the triple-fold drama one must put up with. I came to the conclusion that it's not really worth it.

Now I try to just stick to 1 girl at a time in order to reduce the drama exposure
and p4p on the side to come home without baggage.

A good 1:1 relationship is always more fulfilling, at least in theory....
but WTF do I know.

END OF MESSAGE

You are too funny. I gotta admit. It would be fun to sit down with you have have a beer and listen to your drunken stories...LOL

...claims its about confidence. Its the sexiest part of anyone. Without it the most attractive person can be invisible and with it the one who wouldnt be a head turner becomes one.

the first, I was living with him, cooked, washed clothes, and ended by going with another escort (as much as it hurt, it was a lie)
The second. travel with, and then I met his family told me he did not want anything with me because I am a "whore"
But , he not met me at church

in this environment, entertainment, "not a good place to open your heart"
att : Nikoletta

Well, I'm not sure about the head turner part... I'm only able to turn a woman's head when she is going down on me vigorously and wildly that she twists and turns her head. lmao

Seriously though, does the same apply to lesbian/bi women who are seeking women?
I'm pretty sure it's not her confidence. lol

LOL!

In my experience, women don't want "nice" guys.They just want the guy they like to be nice to THEM! (i.e. one on one in the relationship)

That is why when her friends or family tell her to get rid of him because he seems like a loser/jerk, her response is something like" but he's not like that with ME!"