Dear Shahenshah [King of Kings],

For a while there, I thought this board was failing in its statistics...but then, mercifully, your royal posting came along and tilted our ship [of fools?] right back into its sea of magnificent delusions.

So you want to "know your ATF" beyond the Biblical sense? You want to pursue a "genuine friendship" with her? And "when her escorting days are over," you "would really like to know how she is doing in life?" IS THIS FOR REAL??? Yes, it appears that it is and that you are sincere. And thus, here is my sincere response:

Unless your ATF requests your presence at functions that occur outside of the stipulated time period which has been contracted for through monetary compensation, do NOT expect any of the above to happen. The ball is, and will always be, in the provider's court when it comes to exposing her private persona to you, the client. If you want to keep your ATF, then you will keep your questions to yourself, play along nicely and never, ever try to suggest that you want to know her outside the hobby. It's perfectly understandable why - after all, you really like her and want to know more about her. But to her, you are first and foremost A CLIENT. Period. This doesn't mean that she won't give you some extra little goodies - a "discounted price"   [pedestrian, but I get it] - or even a little extra time on the clock if she is so disposed.

BUT - here comes the drumroll - IT IS ALWAYS ON HER TERMS. ALWAYS. All that stuff about "connecting on a deeper level, hanging out after work, etc.," will never be up to you; in fact, the quickest way to lose your ATF is making exactly those types of propositions. Because chances are that she will feel that you are a very invasive client who no longer can be trusted...and all of a sudden, she will start acting distracted or disinterested at best, or just stop taking your calls at worst.

You will need to believe the advice above, or you could find yourself kicked off your Peacock Throne just like your namesake was in 1979. For now, count your blessings and enjoy the ride.

Not exactly revolutionary,
The Love Goddess

Hi LG and all,

I have wanted to ask for some advice on a particular topic and I was hoping you guys could help me out .

As for some quick back-story: I have been seeing my ATF for 2 years now and things have been great so far. She is a pretty popular girl and doesn’t work as often. However, she always manages to make time in her schedule for me. Not to long ago, she even offered me a discounted price.

The issue at hand: for the longest while, I have been trying to get to know her outside of the hobby / transaction / bedroom. Yet, so far I haven’t had a clue as to how to do that or how I can approach her with the topic. I am not thinking of pursuing a relationship with her nor do I want to pursue her to receive any special treatment and benefits. I understand that we are worlds apart for a SO-style relationship. I genuinely would like to pursue friendship with her outside of the bedroom and perhaps connect with her on a deeper level instead of just the hour –long bedroom act.

Generally speaking, when her escorting days are over, I would really like to know how she is doing in life, what roads she has pursued, etc.

Now, I'm not sure if what I want is best or even something to consider. Please let me know what you guys think! Any insight and advice on this issue would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

-- Modified on 11/28/2010 8:13:37 PM

Great response LG, thank you. Alas, all that we poor, adoring boys can do is pay, play and pray. The ball is always in her court, always...and as in all affairs human, actions speak louder than words.

then act like a friend, and do not violate her privacy or be pushy about it.

There are many levels of friendship and nuances as well.  Seeing a regular for two years already counts as a kind of friendship, at least in my way of understanding it.

So enjoy what she cares to share with you.  If she wants to take things deeper, then she will let you know.

Also, as one that has gotten too close myself sometimes, I leave you with this thought:

Be careful for what you wish for; it might come true.

Shahenshah: you should come clean and just admit the obvious: You want to make Miss ATF your Queen-of-Queens.  I think it's important to admit that, or you're not going to get through this.

Along with everything LG just said, you should ask yourself:  does your ATF have the same emotional tie in you?  My guess is 'No'.   She's banging other guys for money, guys just-like-you.  I think you're one of the many walking wounded, completely dazzled and bewitched by a beautiful provider.  It happens to all of us, old sport.  Just be thankful for your family & friends, you know, those people who spend time with you and don't charge you for it.  Pay more attention to them.  I hope that helps.  --z

Good post, especially the warning! LOL

To the OP- not Mr Fisher who doesn't need to ask these types of questions lol.  I'l respectfully disagree with the what I think is the tone of LG's post. I have a small number of ladies whom I count as friends. We chat, talk about our kids, have a couple of drinks, etc. A smaller number of these ladies have asked that we dispense with any payment for anything except things like dinner, shows, etc. which we usually split.

In all cases except one. the relationships started with casual stuff like thank you emails. That gives her the opportunity to step up the engagement a little. You'll be able to tell from her response (or lack of one!) whether she's interested in talking about things that matter.

Personally, my approach these days is to say, "You know. I'd like to get to know you better. If that's something you might be interested in, do you mind if I email occasionally?". I always make it clear, too, that I'm not dissatisfied with keeping things as they are- no hurt feelings. The ladies who don't trust me enough or aren't interested by the time I get around to saying that are ladies I'd rather not spend more time with anyway since that takes away from the time I could be spending with ladies who are interested in a relationship beyond P4P to some degree.

As with any relationship, there is some risk in being honest and talking about things that matter. One of those risks is that you may lose what the relationship is currently. Think about that before you risk it.

-- Modified on 11/29/2010 2:50:53 PM

"You know. I'd like to get to know you better. If that's something you might be interested in, do you mind if I email occasionally?".

“The ladies who don't trust me enough or aren't interested by the time I get around to saying that are ladies I'd rather not spend more time with anyway since that takes away from the time I could be spending with ladies who are interested in a relationship beyond P4P to some degree”

OK....... Not to imply friendships are not possible.  But,  this is not the arena in which you should be going into an encounter with an "expectation" that a provider will have an interest in "getting to know you better".

And, it’s a bit creepy (assuming I’m reading your comment above correctly) that you view a lack of positive response to your overtures as a trigger to move on to another provider who might be more open to engaging with you in: “a relationship beyond P4P to some degree”

In the process of intercourse, or any kind of sex, there is some information about the person imparted (If it's done right.), and that is all that needs to be imparted for that portion of the relaionship.

Now I don't mind going beyond that, but that needs two willing partners to proceed.

There are many good reasons to limit the interpersonal information and involvement.  This is supposed to be NSA type sex, is it not?

Of course politeness and manners are always a requirement for all interpersonal interactions, but that should never be mistaken for a real connection.

Your last point however, is dead on.

There are always exceptions, but the thing about this hobby is that we have a particular kind of relationship that has no strings. Most of us keep this life apart from our other lives (and the girls do too).

Now that you're talking about 'friendship' you are putting strings back in (Love Goddess might have said it a bit more eloquently) so you would be changing the whole game.

As tempting as it seems, the general wisdom has been to avoid this. Unless you are two completely lost souls with no other connections who happen to fall into place together, forget it. This is more likely to create dangers for both of you than anything else.

Wormwood:  based on your replies in this thread & the last one, you're obviously looking for romance.  
You're looking for romance with a provider, which is a relationship based on money.  Why can't you pursue a relationship with a non-provider?  You need to ask yourself that question, some introspection is in order.  

 A provider may spend a great deal of time with you off the clock: drinks, movie, dinner, all the stuff that you love so much.  You're excited about how different you are from her other clients, because...you're really her BOYFRIEND, not a client like the rest of us losers.  

Yes, I've been right where you are now.  Here's Act II of the show, the part you haven't gotten to yet:  your provider/girlfriend will start hitting you up for rent, car payment, boob job, medical bills.  What's the matter?  Better turn that frown upside down--this is what you wanted, right?   You will pay her, either now or later.  

Now let's go to my Magic 8 Ball
Question: Is Romance in store for Wormwood?
Answer:  OUTLOOK NOT SO GOOD.    --z

but you don't know me and I can assure you that I don't need your advice.

I've been at this a while and I know what kind of hobby experience is interesting to me. I'm not interested in the same type of hobby experience that most men here are and I take pains to try to make sure I see ladies who are interested in the same approach to interpersonal relationships that I'm interested in. Believe me, they exist.

As for Act II, we all have our own plays to star in. Mine worked out quite differently than your scenario and I learned a tremendous amount. The big thing I learned is how to find ladies in this hobby who can manage real relationships with clients. I've not had a single lady ask me for money other than the donation, marriage (seriously!!) yes, but not money. However, I've had ladies call me to talk about their kids' homework,  to talk about their father dying, to ask how I'm doing in stressful situations, to talk about a book they just read or invite me to a movie or the museum- you know, the things friends do.

I'm not interested in romance outside the appointed time. I'm not interested in being anyone's boyfriend but friendship? Hell yeah. I'll take that wherever I can find it.

It always amazes me how many people here think that their way of hobbying is the only way and that anyone who behaves differently than they do must be either an ignoramus or a rube or both. Here's an idea- you share your hobby experiences for the benefit of the fine folks here and I'll do the same. Then we can let the adults make their own decisions about how they want to engage in P4P. The OP asked a question and I shared my experience, which in this case is considerable. I appreciate you looking out for my well-being (although I suspect that all you've been doing is trying to covertly brag about your superior knowledge) but I can assure you, I'm a big boy and don't need it.

The OP asked how to approach a lady in terms of moving the relationship along and I responded with information about how that has happened for me. He didn't ask for a lecture about naivete' and neither did I.

Really? It's creepy to you when people state what they want and move on if it's not available? I would do the same with things like BBBJ. I'm seeking a particular kind of experience in the hobby and if it's not there, I move on. It seems very strange to me that you would find it creepy for someone to be open to friendship.

Personally, I find it a bit creepy that so many guys want to fuck women without engaging in some degree of real personal interaction. To me, that type of session is just a good masturbation session and I can do that on my own without the cost. Why is it creepy for me to prefer to fuck friends rather than strangers?

And, the real questions, why do you care how I hobby? Who made you the hobby sheriff who enforces the rules about how other people should hobby?

I too have an ATF I've been seeing for 7 plus years..and we both know quite a lot about each other's personal lives and I have no problem trusting her with that info.  That said, I'm married, she's divorced and saving cash to pay-off her home for retirement.  She knows I'm married and not about to leave while kids are at home, so I've kept things strictly professional, but we've both talked abstractly about what we'd like to do later in life and have much in common.  My approach is that if the relationship continues, at some point I will be divorced, and at that time I plan to broach the idea of a change - if she rejects it, that's fine, but at least I'll have tried and can move on to others without the regret of never having asked.  

Posted By: Shahenshah

Hi LG and all,

I have wanted to ask for some advice on a particular topic and I was hoping you guys could help me out .

As for some quick back-story: I have been seeing my ATF for 2 years now and things have been great so far. She is a pretty popular girl and doesn’t work as often. However, she always manages to make time in her schedule for me. Not to long ago, she even offered me a discounted price.

The issue at hand: for the longest while, I have been trying to get to know her outside of the hobby / transaction / bedroom. Yet, so far I haven’t had a clue as to how to do that or how I can approach her with the topic. I am not thinking of pursuing a relationship with her nor do I want to pursue her to receive any special treatment and benefits. I understand that we are worlds apart for a SO-style relationship. I genuinely would like to pursue friendship with her outside of the bedroom and perhaps connect with her on a deeper level instead of just the hour –long bedroom act.

Generally speaking, when her escorting days are over, I would really like to know how she is doing in life, what roads she has pursued, etc.

Now, I'm not sure if what I want is best or even something to consider. Please let me know what you guys think! Any insight and advice on this issue would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

-- Modified on 11/28/2010 8:13:37 PM

I am always a bit surprised to see men who I assume are successful at whatever they do, forget the reality of the situation here. Although there will be emotional connections, one must always keep their head on straight.  In fact, as a rule, I make sure not to see anyone too often because I know that in doing so, the provider may start to believe you want more of a relationship and thus, she will in fact take advantage of you.  
I would add that there have been some providers that I really liked as people but once I sensed that they believed that they could control me, I had to cut ties for awhile.  This is an important skill to have.   My belief is the beauty of this hobby is that you can separate yourself from the provider without any drama.

There was an occasion where a provider I liked made a comment to me that gave me the feeling that she had gone a bit far and talked to people who might know me.   What she said made me a bit uncomfortable.  That was the last time I saw her.   Now I have peace of mind and I am just fine.  I did not bother being negative with her.  I simply removed myself from the situation.   I know that if I continued to see her she might have become even more inappropriate and possibly created some problems for me.

Human beings are human beings.  If they see vulnerability they get more aggressive.  In the end you can only loose.  Keep your head on.

None of my business to meddle in here (between you & Worm) and I certainly find this thread to be a very interesting one, starting from LG's opinion right the way through most of the posters' opinions, including that of both you and Worm.

However, I just wanted to chime in and say that he did in fact answer your question and here is a quote from his last post:

"I'm not interested in romance outside the appointed time. I'm not interested in being anyone's boyfriend but friendship? Hell yeah. I'll take that wherever I can find it."

Rather that going back and forth between the two of you, is it possible that you two have had a different set of results from your past experiences with regards to this subject, because of the difference in the age of the providers? I merely say that because in one of your past posts, you cautioned against a potential provider hitting one up for' "rent money, car payment, breast augmentation, etc" while Worm was talking of, "provider's father passing away, help with the kids' homework, trips to the museum, etc" It seems to me that you had some bad experience with a younger provider who was really looking for a Sugar Daddy whereas  Worm had some good experiences with a more mature demographic!

While I am not saying that all young providers are destitute when all mature providers are financially secure and independent (far from it), what I am saying is that the chances of not getting mixed up as a Sugar Daddy with the latter group is a lot less than the former. Most often when a guy past his 40's get tangled emotionally/romantically with a girl in her 20's, concerns which you had raise do come to surface. Just thinking aloud and apologies for the interruption

Casino Stocks:  typically if someone pursues romance with providers, it's because they can't find it with non-providers.  Wormwood's posts really don't pass the smell test, and I'm surprised that you believe everything you read on this board.  Some skepticism is in order here.  

Yes, it is possible to have a long-term relationship with a provider off-the-clock.  But I think those relationships are rare.  I think it's much more common for clients to delude themselves, and their delusions often find their way to this board.   rage away,  --z

I'm not sure what you mean by this unless it's just some Byzantine way of calling me a liar. Which doesn't bother me at all, BTW but it does make me wonder why my hobby experiences seem to have provoked such an interest from you.

I'm not sure why you're engaging in personal attacks, either. I never claimed to be irresistible, merely to doing my homework and having some degree of success in finding providers who share my approach to the hobby. That's sort of the point of this board, is it not?

As for why I hobby, I presume that it's for the same reasons you do and that it has to do primarily with convenience. I also prefer to keep this aspect of my life kind of tidy and P4P goes a long way in doing that.

Let me ask you a question. Why do you insist on equating friendship and romance?

Except that I do prefer somewhat younger women- late 20s to early 30s.

Zang and I have obviously had different experiences with the ladies we've gotten to know in the hobby. That doesn't make either of us right or wrong (where did that whole issue come from in this thread anyway?), it just means that we've had different experiences.

prevent us from being present in the moment with the person.

It may be an ideal, but it is one to strive for.

In that way, a real connection is made.

Well, not at all Why even end your post like that? Rather surprising as I have no dog in this fight! I am not so gullible (if that was your inference) to believe everything that I read here and I just highlighted a quote from Worm's post indicating that he had in fact responded to your Q. As to whether one wishes to believe what one reads in here, look, we are all merely Bits & Bytes when it comes to computers & the Internet. I personally take everything with a healthy grain of salt

Now back onto the topic and this statement which you made:

"Typically if someone pursues romance with providers, it's because they can't find it with non-providers"

In some scenarios, I believe this to be the case because it seems easier to try to purchase romance rather than making the necessary emotional investment and commitment which are the true currency when it comes to romantic liaisons. In reality, if one merely wishes to fuck then no session should linger beyond 10-20 minutes which is all that is needed for a Wham-Bam-Thank You-Ma'am! Riddle me this then: why do we have providers offering hour sessions and multiples of it and hobbyists (including both you and me) gladly ponying up and signing up for the extra time? Why do we have ATFs & why do we pursue GFEs rather than meeting a "hooker" in some stair case, in the back of the car, on top of a roof, in a basement, etc; and not just bang the fuck out of them rather than all this other seemingly frivolous and unnecessary stuff? Yes as the male version of our species, we would like to think that just like our animal counter parts we are all buff, rough and tough, but the reality is that we seek to emote and we do make some sort of emotional investment with the providers. Now many of us have the ability to distinguish the differences between fantasy and reality and realize that we are purchasing "romance" for a finite period of time and some of us get our wires crossed and wish to extend that "romance" beyond the allocated time! If I had to guess, I would say with the utmost confidence that all three of us, i.e, you, me & Worm have belonged to both clubs

In conclusion, I will say that IMHO pursuing a real romantic long term relationship with a Provider is completely futile as we have completely different standards when it comes to who we choose as our spouses, our fiancees, as our girlfriends, our fuck buddies, our casual hook ups and our providers (in that descending order!) I am not delusional and I personally do not seek real romance within the Hobby. As for friendship with a Provider, well that depends on the substance and the depth of the person, rather than the nature of their occupation. As you very well may know, there are plenty of intelligent, interesting and experienced people on both sides of the aisles in the Hobby of ours, who make up plenty for the other group among us which seem to consist of single cell organism

Take care, CS~

I am myself with my clients. I have fallen for one client, dated another, and used to be quite open to "off the clock" friendships.

However, these were RARE exceptions; and the men weren't looking for it, it just happened naturally over time. If I feel that someone is pushing the boundaries...if they pay for 1 hour but obviously expect "the rules" to fall away...then I will feel very resistant to them. Some men honestly think that they are too good-looking, normal, and charming for me to see them as just a client. Others get muddled by GFE. These men will offer to take you to dinner, say, or on a vacation, with the express goal of ultimately breaking down the provider/client wall. No matter what a man's motives, unless I say otherwise, I am offering myself as someone who makes a living by having my time compensated, social or otherwise - it is not appropriate for clients to solicit me with anything other than a paid date. It's downright presumptuous.  

I had a client who always just booked for an hour or two, and kept mentioning dinners and vacations "when we got to know each other better." Meaning, "free" time when I had ultimately fallen under the spell of his irresistible cock. Another very young man tried to arrive super-early (I said I was unavailable), and immediately started fishing about "getting to dinner first" and "what was I doing later, what's good around here?" "Well maybe if you are going to be around for the rest of the week, we could hang out, have you ever been to  _______" Even before he met me, he had this image in his head of the two of us hitting it off! It's part of the fantasy for some people. I could go on and on with more examples. Paradoxically, it's when a man does not press me for privileges, that I feel more comfortable extending such to him. When those two clients asked me for free time, it was like talking to a brick wall. For certain others, I would do it without hesitation - but usually those are the ones who don't ask

So, with that said, there are a few very special clients with whom I made friends.  I'm more wary now than I used to be, because I'm (mostly) not happy with the way these relationships have turned out. Mostly they just want free sex. They might offer to help - with work, advice, even money - but they don't usually follow through. It's a lot of sexy texts, long-winded complaints about the unfairness of life, requests to be arm candy, even booty calls (at that point, I cut things off). I've learned that the clients who really respect me, honor my chosen role as an escort, and by extension honor the parameters of that world. I have chosen to offer myself under those terms, and they respect that.

Yes, there are always exceptions to the status quo, and there SHOULD be exceptions, but the status quo is in place for a reason. I'm not completely business-like, but I want my time and boundaries respected before I decide to change them.

Good point about sex being a form of personal interaction, but you know what I was trying to say.

Is there a way this hobby is 'supposed to be'? Seems to me that lots of people participate in whatever way they wish to do so. I certainly wouldn't recommend that anyone else hobby like I do just like I wouldn't recommend that anyone dress like I do or drive the same car that I do. What works for me, works for me. All I can say other than that is that I hope everyone is as happy with their hobby participation as I am.

Well written, honest, and thorough assessment of the issue from a provider's perspective.

THANK YOU!

You sound like a complete professional and I mean that in the most complimentary way.  I am sure that your respectful clients find it easier to relax with you simply because you are not playing any games.  If your appearance is as enticing as your mental approach and prose, you must be a striking beauty.

And continue being happy with my hobby experiences. I wish you the same.

Wormwood: Regarding "You cannot buy friendship",  note your comments below.   I put in CAPS the two points of interest.    --z

I sometimes get a chance to travel with my ATF for a few days when she's on the road. I should also add that she is also a very close friend of mine. It's very interesting because I get to see what it's like from her point of view. It's very strange seeing her wearing sweats between appointments when I was used to seeing her all dressed up in stockings and high heels. During the long hours of watching tv and eating pizza, we talk about personal things and I sometimes hear things that I wish I hadn't. I better understand her now, as she probably does me too. I care very deeply for her, and yes we both use the "L" word often..... but we have no illusions of riding off into the sunset together. In a day or two, one of us will call the other to talk or ask to meet up somewhere for a drink or something to eat. So yes friendship is possible, it's something that just happened over time.

The key is to be in a relationship with an ATF without attachment.  I have an ATF who is a good friend and we email, regularly chat on the phone, go out to movies and dinners, talk about our problems, ask and give advice to each other and fuck.  Overall, we just enjoy our company and have a great time together.  The thing is to experience it all by being detached, which is almost Zen-like.  I think to be detached means to enjoy the experience but if it is taken away from you, that's ok too.  Therefore, if this relationship was to end, then let it be so and I just move on.  Next!

Well said!!!

Hi LG,

First of all, my apologies for the late response. I had been away traveling for two weeks with very limited internet access. Secondly, thanks for such a lively response .

After pondering over your response, you are correct on all counts. I cannot recall a sincere moment where my ATF and myself bonded outside of the transaction.

I am not considering to stop seeing her as I am sure continued sessions with her will only make my desire friendship stronger.

Thanks again for your words,

Shah

Hi Zangari,

My feet are pretty well grounded and I am completely aware of the fact that I do not want to make her my Queen-of-Queens. Is that something I want in an ideal world? Don't we all! However I understand and the see our differences which are worlds apart and I absolutely do not see a romantic relationship on the horizon.

Perhaps all that I have said in the paragraph above is what I am telling myself to cloud the truth, or perhaps my words are the absolute truth - who knows. I don't see her an a provider. I see her as an another human being with whom I would love to have the opportunity to connect with.

Thanks for your words and also thanks for reminding me to count my blessings .

All the best!

Hi mrfisher,

I have done exactly that. I have always respected her as a human being and not once did I ever impose myself onto her. I have been pretty passive with her for the two years and that is exactly why I have posted this thread: to hear everyone's opinions as to what I could do to pursue her friendship, if possible at all.

So far, the general consensus is to let her be and see how things go.

Thanks.

Thank you for providing a point-of-view from the other side of the table, BlueUnicorn10.

after seeing her this long, if she felt the same way, you'd know more about her personal life already.  seems like you're having the only type of relationship she's interested in.  she's already called the shots it seems.  if you just want to keep up with her over the years, and she feels the same way, maybe eventually when she tells you she's retiring, ask for an email address?

whitney

Wormwood no disrespect sir, but bottom line: most folks would say it doesn't take two years to figure out if someone is your friend or not. If they were you would already know, and you wouldn't have to ask.