My apologies in advance as I posted this on another board and also thought I would do it here as this is a group has broader geographic coverage than the other one.  

PROLOGUE (THE DRAMA):

I’m in a marriage that has been going downhill for twenty-five years that probably shouldn’t have happened. My fault – no love in the first place; just liked the companionship but relationship (translate sex) poor.

Fast forward 15 years. Second son born, both wife’s parents die, I develop chronic pancreatitis and a brain tumor. Wife feels cheated, quits her job, is angry at the whole world and takes it out on the family. Cold marriage no sex, little love. Saw couple of marriage counselors that wife walked out on. In defense of her, they were the pits. Since I was a chicken-shit and didn’t force resolution of the issues earlier, I cannot stand my wife although I put up with things “for the kids.”

Today. Life is short and I urgently need to kindle passion and intimacy in my life before I die, even if it’s fleeting (although hard to do after so many years, life without passion is death – anybody got a match?). Began hobbying this year, first in Europe and now in the states. Woke me up, like 2x4 hitting me in the head. Seriously considering dumping the marriage. Between the problems at home, health issues, and the escape hobbying provides me; I see no value in the marriage EXCEPT impact on remaining child living at home (older son, now in college, has encouraged me to get a lover – go figure….)

Due to guilt (should not have gotten married in the first place, shouldn't dislike someone so much, should have forced addressing the issues earlier, but no guilt over hobbying) and concern about the children, I would like to try marriage counseling again before I give up and go my separate way. I’m 2/3rds of the way out the door which probably isn’t a good sign (for the marriage). I have talked with my wife about my perceptions of the issues and am seeing a psychologist myself. Wife doesn’t like fact that I am seeing a therapist (wife can’t stand the psychologist and fears that she will encourage me to bolt) and doesn’t want to see a marriage counselor due to previous experiences. I know she is worried though since, for the first time, she is interested in our finances.

ADVISE PLEASE:

• HOW DOES ONE FIND A GOOD MARRIAGE COUNSELOR? PM ME SHOULD YOU HAVE NAMES (I'M IN COLUMBUS, OH)

• WHAT DOES ONE LOOK FOR IN A MARRIAGE COUNSELOR?

• HOW THE HELL CAN I GET MY WIFE TO SEE A MARRIAGE COUNSELOR AND/OR A THERAPIST FOR HER?

• IS IT WORTH IT (I KNOW, ONLY I CAN SAY)?

• ANY OTHER COMMENTS?

I’d appreciate any advice you could give me, constructive or otherwise (and sorry for the burden.) Also I’m not so naive to think there are simple answers: just looking for your take…

Dear dsperk,

Here are the answers to your questions:

HOW DOES ONE FIND A GOOD MARRIAGE COUNSELOR? PM ME SHOULD YOU HAVE NAMES (I'M IN COLUMBUS, OH)

I have no connections to therapists in Columbus, OH, but wwww.therapistlocator.net is the search engine for AAMFT (American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy.) I can guarantee that those listed on that site are more than qualified to provide marriage counseling.

• WHAT DOES ONE LOOK FOR IN A MARRIAGE COUNSELOR?

I hesitate to address the title "marriage counselor," since you'll primarily be dealing with "marriage and family therapists." That's slightly different. A "marriage counselor" may be someone with a marriage and family therapist license, or it may be someone with a LCSW (licensed clinical social worker) license, or someone with a PSY (psychologist) license. But all are technically "marriage counselors." Nowadays, we don't just license "counselors" to deal with troubled marriages, LOL.

As to what you should look for: I'd say someone who is not vested in either breaking you up or keeping you together. That decision is for YOU both to make. Unfortunately many therapists end up losing sight of objectivity and begin taking sides with either party. While this may be understandable, depending on the situation, if you begin to feel that this is happening, do confront the therapist immediately. Warmth and empathy are a must, while maintaining objectivity. This is difficult and that's why you'll be paying a professional and not a friend to help you out.

• HOW THE HELL CAN I GET MY WIFE TO SEE A MARRIAGE COUNSELOR AND/OR A THERAPIST FOR HER?

With difficulty, if she is resistant. Short of a court order, no one can FORCE his/her spouse to attend therapy. But from what I understand, you seem to have a terminal illness. For your wife not to wish to enter conjoint therapy seems almost cruel. And her concern are finances? Are you sure you want to be with someone so unempathic, so lacking in compassion at all? A dying man and she won't grant such a wish? Hmmm. On the other hand, if we're talking strictly "FOR HER," if she comes to couple's therapy, that therapist in turn may recommend that she see her own individual professional.

• IS IT WORTH IT (I KNOW, ONLY I CAN SAY)?

Well, yes, it's always worth it to examine one's feelings in depth. But with lines in your posting such as "I cannot stand my wife," and "due to guilt (should not have gotten married in the first place, shouldn't dislike someone so much)" I doubt the therapist will have much faith in your union. Would you if someone told these words to you?

• ANY OTHER COMMENTS?

Just some questions that the therapist may ask you: Are you afraid of dying alone, and therefore want to spend your last days of your life with your wife? Don't you think your child notices that there is no love lost between you and your wife? One important thing to consider is that children may become the IP (identified patient) when conflicts between husband and wife escalate. Children are like antennaes and barometers of marriages. The marriage tanks - it'll show in the kid. Anger, depression, failure in school, acting out - all of these symptoms may become apparent before the family has a rude awakening.

Good luck, hope it works,
the Love Goddess




-- Modified on 5/8/2008 7:14:46 AM

Excellent advise / good information - insightful.  

The dying alone thing is actually, for me, the being along thing and has always been a fear of mine that I have not confronted (reason I got married in the first place) but I need to address head on!!

The children as IP is also an issue I struggle with.  The younger one does have issues as a result of our conflict and has pleaded with me not to leave as I serve as the buffer between him and mom.  

Your advise and the advise of others on other boards are helping me find the courage to move forward on this journey.  Thank you.

I'm hesitant to chime in on this one but let me add a couple thoughts.  As free advice, it's worth every penny, as the saying goes.  While I'm not addressing your exact question, I have gone down this road and know where it can lead.

First off, IMO you don't currently have a marriage, you've got a past, and you've got children whose well-being is a factor, but you no longer have a marriage.  The question for you is do you want to try to turn that shared past back into a marriage, or do you just want to end it as gracefully as possible?  Clearly, from the nature of your post you've already mentally checked out, or are close to doing so.  I suspect deep down you probably already know the answer to that question, even if you are still struggling with it.  

Before engaging a marriage counselor, I think it's critical to be honest with yourself about your true objectives.  Do you really want to go through the hard work to rekindle your marriage, or do you just want to see a marriage counselor to help provide assistance for you to extract yourself from this difficult situation?  

LG may disagree, but I think it's disingenuous if you start seeing a counselor when you already know you really just want to see an attorney instead.  And I say that because marriage counseling can be painful and gut-wrenching under the best of circumstances and intentions, and if one party is already mentally gone (and just going through the motions), then it almost borders on an act of cruelty to subject the other party to that.  In business we'd say it was bad faith negotiating.

I went through this too, and though the specific circumstances are always different, in retrospect, I already knew I wanted out but just didn't know how to end it.  To say I was conflicted was a huge understatement, and even to this day I can make a case for staying married.  I can also make a case that I was a real asshole for going through counseling when I already knew I no longer was in love with my wife.  I just wanted someone else to do the dirty work for me and let her know I wanted a divorce.  

Even so, saying I wanted a divorce was the hardest thing I ever had to do because no relationship is 100% good or bad, and I certainly had many good times with my wife, both as a GF and while married.  Nothing brings that into focus like actually saying the words "I want a divorce" and then seeing the consequences.  Perhaps jumping off the deck of a ship into a stormy sea at night is a good way to describe the experience that follows.

Every one deserves to be happy, and a bad marriage is the pits, as we all know, because while you can leave a bad job or GF, when it's bad at home it follows you around everywhere.  So just putting an end to the pain has value in itself- no argument there.

You should realize, however, that while it's easy to see providers (and there's nothing wrong with that), they can give you a false sense of what's out there waiting for you.  In reality, it's highly unlikely given your age, your health, and your financial and mental condition post-divorce, that you'll ever have another serious relationship of the sort you might be contemplating.

If you think your health will deteriorate and you feel you want to enjoy the company of as many providers as you can, while you can, then that's fine as long as you're clear on that going in.  But if that's the case, you don't really need to be divorced to do that.  

If, on the other hand, you think the only thing that's holding you back from enjoying some really great relationships is that you're stuck in a bad marriage, then you might find your post-divorce life to be a somewhat of a harsh reality check.  

I was only 34 when I got divorced and still decent looking, in good shape and approaching the top of my game professionally.  And while I did have some nice long term relationships, they were all based more on me appearing to be a "good catch" (as in meal ticket) as opposed to love.   Much to my surprise and disappointment, I was never able to meet the sort of quality women that would get me thinking about marriage again, even though I tried.  I did meet plenty of women with "issues," however.

The reality is middle-age dating is pretty bleak and anybody who has been put through the wringer of a divorce will never approach dating quite the same way again- that's why TER thrives.  Sure, the romantics may spend a few years on Match.com before throwing in the towel, but the realists get VIP memberships on TER.  That's just the way it ends up for 95% of the people either approaching, or already past age 50.  

We're all different and we all want different things out of life, and I strongly believe we have the right to be happy.  But it was at least five years after my divorce before I even approached any type of "happy," and even then, only in the context of casual dating, not "love" relationships.  While I'm basically satisfied being single, it wasn't my intention and I never, ever contemplated that I'd still be on my own 23 years after saying "I want a divorce."  

So all I'm saying is be honest with yourself as to what you really want and expect as an outcome of marriage counseling.  Being divorced may be better than the bad marriage you've got now, but it also may not be what you think.   I'm the poster boy for unintended consequences in life and love.  If you were to ask me, I'd say in retrospect, I probably should have tried to rekindle my marriage rather than bail out.   But every situation is different and only you know what's right for you.

OK, that may not be the answer to the question you asked today, but it may help you answer the questions you'll be asking yourself in the next few months.  Best of luck to you.



-- Modified on 5/9/2008 2:09:32 AM

G2 - Thanks for your words of experience.  They have helped me think through a few things.

I have no illusions in terms of finding a permanent civie relationship post marriage because of the trauma of divorce, my age, and health. I do know I can find close friends in the civie world as well as this.

I got married for fear of being alone and for not wanting to hurt another's feelings, not for love - really really stupid, especially since I'd done that once before in a previous marriage AND I'd had one passionate loving relationship between the two marriages: I should have known better.  

Being in a relationship without passion and intimacy IS being alone. Without connection a relationship can be worse than no relationship as things start to unravel under the surface and there is no reserve of love to build bridges with.

A fundamental question for me in the marriage is can we kindle (not rekindle) passion and intimacy which has never been there, at least not for me.  If the answer is yes, marriage counseling is worth it but there is a lot of baggage to wade through to get there - not sure I'm up to the swim in those heavy seas - that's what I'm sorting through.

As you can see, I'm conflicted as are all that go through this.  Once again, thanks for your input.

I am in same niche as you described- married a long time and really want out- went to a couple of visits of counselling at wife's insistance only to have the counselor bring that out in me as a reality.

Thanks so much for your heart felt summary!

The thought of my kids having a broken home is what kept me in marriage for longer than I thought I should, but when the day came (the wife forced it by moving out), the kids, while initially upset, came to accept it just fine.

We both stay in close touch with the kids and sometimes do things together (graduations, etc.).

In short, don't let that stop you.

You will find, if your experience is anything like mine, that hobbying will give you a great will to live.  I only hope that the divorce isn't too expensive and leaves you with sufficient funds to play with.

Best of luck.

-- Modified on 11/15/2008 11:31:41 AM

Wow, this was an iconic post. I've been going through these same mental gymnastics with my marriage at 46 yo. I've shed more than  a few tears with my wife discussing our various issues and we are making an effort to work through things. Thanks for the post on keeping it real!

Not going through divorce talks but one day asked what I thought about bringing porn into the bedroom to get me more excited.  I told her that I only liked porn that shows oral or Russian because I don't get that at home and always fantasize about it.  She was glad that now she knew what to do to make me really happy and she could do it herself instead of a movie.  I also brought home the book How To Make Love To a Man Over 50.  I was getting really excited that I finally had told her what I want and she was OK with it.  It has been 2 weeks, no oral, no Russian and the book is in a drawer.  On Monday after no action, I saw a favorite provider who gave me everything I could have wanted and more.  Things are so confusing.  I can't imagine being without her, I was nothing when we met and because of her and her family's support (verbal, not financial) I am doing quite well.  She loved me when no other woman would give me the time of day and stayed through the tough times to get where we are today.  No easy answers.