LG:  I just was reading thru here and wanted to comment about your advice a few days ago and because the thread is lower down I figured I'd bring it up again here.

Here is your advice:  http://www.theeroticreview.com/discussion_boards/viewmsg.asp?MessageID=6012&boardID=20&page=1

I wanted to respond that I, too, have felt this guilt after seeing a provider that is described by this poster.  I have felt that guilt even after seeing "well-reviewed" veteran TER providers.  [On one occasion, with a younger provider, I gave her the money and a large tip and had no sex.  I had spoken to her about her background and she told me she was doing it for the summer to pay for college and I just told her to take the money and get to school as soon as she could.  That is one example; I have had more than a few other similar experiences...although usually, to be honest, after I had sex.]

Part of me thinks there is something a bit wrong with me for feeling this guilt; part of me thinks I am somehow "better" for being more sensitive than others.  I don't think this is at all black and white though and I believe there is truth behind both parts.

I wanted also to add that I disagree with your confident and soothing reply that we should not feel at all guilty about seeing TER reviewed veteran providers because they know what they are doing and have made a comfortable decision for their lives.

I wish I believed that to be true - or, at least, nearly as true as you suggest.  I hope I am wrong, but I am concerned I am not.

I have seen several very, very well known and well respected providers demonstrate on posts a far greater emotional tenderness about this life and the background that led to it for them than your post begins to suggest or accept as possible.  I do not want to give the names because, of course, it would be wrong to draw attention to the individuals I have in mind that way.  But, suffice to say, I have seen and read enough here and met enough providers personally to know that there is quite often something that is not quite so practical and calm and reflective in their choice as your post suggests.  And there is reason to believe, I think, that many providers develop tremendous anger and repulsion for men from this profession - frankly, I think it is hard to imagine a provider would not feel that way eventually if she did this long enough and were not some kind of a saint.  Providers see a very bad side of us and that has got to take a toll.  What do I mean by bad side?  How men cheat; our smells; our perversions.  Of course, most of us treat providers with tremendous respect; some come with flowers, clean and most are likely well groomed - but I also suspect that providers may feel repulsed and turned off and rather unimpressed by "gentlemanly" behavior on many occasions when it goes a bit too far.

Please do not think that I am trying to suggest that all providers have some emotional disturbance that led them here.  But I think it is a bit overly sweet and optimistic to imagine that the opposite is necessarily the case either.

Upon prodding I think one would find more often than not that there is some painful underlying issue - either that led to a provider getting involved in this lifestyle or that results after she is in this lifestyle long enough.  I also think the same is true for many of us who meet with providers: that there is something sad and lonely and uncomfortable that led us here as well and that for most of us this lifestyle can also lead to discomfort and sadness.

In essence, I think what I am trying to say, is that I do not think the deep truth about this lifestyle is that those of us who engage in it are simply more "open" or "advanced" or "sophisticated" or "accepting" of sexual needs and desires.  I think that much of this lifestlye derives from tremendous sadness and unsatisfied financial needs and opportunities (for providers) and emotional and physical needs and opportunities (for those of us who hire them).  And while those needs can be soothed and assisted for a while in this lifestlye, I also think they can be exacerbated and left sore longer by delaying and avoiding a true recovery.

I am not at all sure if I am being clear in what I am trying to say.  I just wanted to give it a try and see any response you might have.

Thank you.



-- Modified on 7/28/2007 9:36:13 PM

Dear mr.ed,

I am very sorry that my encouragement to poster Bowl47 has been construed as "overly sweet and optimistic." This is not the case whatsoever; on the other hand, as a therapist to the provider community and with providers as personal friends, I can unequivocally tell you that very few of the successful providers I have interacted with are "tremendously angry" and "repulsed" by men. If they were, they would no longer be successful or providing. The women I know are smart, funny, caring and above all, very strong in character. Perhaps that is why they have found their niche and lasted so long in the business.

In fact, many mature, successful providers who work BY CHOICE profess the exact opposite; the "bad side" of heterosexual relations is frequently experienced when they venture over to the 'civilian' side. I have had providers tell me that they would much rather spend time with a charming, polite and sophisticated hobbyist than a selfish, ego-centered civilian who makes rude comments and treats them like a disposable one-night stand. Some providers even state that the profession has made it impossible for them to interact with men who do not "worship" them or act considerate in the same way that many hobbyists do.

I believe that for you as a male, it is perhaps very difficult for you to imagine that sex with strange men can be perfectly acceptable and preferable to many other jobs, even those that don't involve any sort of perceived degradation. In your post, there is a fair amount of projection which I, even as a woman, find objectionable: "How men cheat; our smells; our perversions." Please let me remind you that these aspects of male behavior - I refuse to call it male 'nature' or 'character' - are mostly experienced by civilians who are stuck in relationships they can't or won't leave, for whatever reason. N.b. that I am not addressing the issue of street prostitution or prostituting for drugs, which is a tremendously tragic situation, and not that common with TER providers who command hundreds of dollars per hour. A successful provider CAN really pick and choose with whom she interacts. If someone smells or acts "perverted," (whatever this means,) a provider is not forced to interact with him; in fact, successful providers are known for their demands and setting official boundaries which 99% of the time are respected by decent hobbyists.

On the flip side, yes, there is sadness and perhaps "unsatisfied financial needs" in the business. But the same goes for any endeavor which is predicated on superficial parameters: acting, dancing, singing, modeling, and yes, escorting.

As for the "prodding" and finding there are underlying issues - as a psychotherapist, it is my duty to "prod" and search for clues to someone's behavior. I can also say that the providers I have had as clients and known as friends are not in possession of any more painful underlying issues than the executives who consort with them, and who come to me as therapy clients. If you scratch the surface, anyone who bares his/her soul will eventually come forward with bitter disappointments, shattered dreams and unmet needs. There is no one on this earth who lives a perfect existence, except perhaps a thought-disordered individual who is in a psychotic break with reality.

One last item: when I speak of "successful providers," I don't include those who want to quit, or those who are unhappy with their jobs. In every category of work, you will find people who are burned out [ever speak to an attorney who has practiced a few years too many?] or people who regret their choices in life. If you have met providers who have opened themselves up to you, I imagine that you have been a kind and good listener. But your guilt is not going to make either you or them feel better. If you give them money without using their services...what does that really accomplish? Does it make you feel like less of a user? I feel like I'm using my maid every week she shows up to clean my place, but I have come to the conclusion that it is so because I would never want to do her job. Perhaps the same type of projection comes up for you - you would never want to consort with "smelly, cheating, perverted" men, which in your estimation are contributing to the misery of providers who would rather be and do something completely different.

Please post this on the General Discussion board and see how providers and hobbyists respond,
the Love Goddess

I appreciate your taking the time to respond.

I remain unconvinced because I think you have done a wonderful job allowing yourself to perceive and feel the rosy side of things here.

I do not want to post this on the General Board because I am well aware that this post would be slammed by many and I am just not up to it at the moment.  I wanted to post it here as a question to you because I wanted to see if I could be convinced not to feel guilt by a professional who is expert in this area and who has the experience to look at these questions more deeply and not just give pat, simplistic answers predicated on impulse and the need to maintain a certain type of reputation in the TER community, or self-interest promotion reasons, or the need not to allow themselves to realize and feel the pain my post suggests is often felt.

I very much appreciate your response; I acknowledge your views may be much more correct than I am able to realize; I hope and wish you are right most of the time; I fear you are wrong more than your post acknowledges.

the dishwasher at the restaurant you eat at?  I think they may be doing that for money.

Howabout the sales clerk at the department store, the cab driver, the people who assembled your TV set in Korea?

Why is it that when sex is involved, it's a whole new set of rules?

Actually, I often have similar feelings in some of the types of circumstances you list.  But I think your question is a really good one and will require me to consider it carefully to see if I can provide a meaningful reply.

But my initial reaction is, perhaps, that I feel that sexual relations can have an infinitely greater beauty than any other human activity and so I elevate it in some fashion and want others to feel that essence and purity of sex when taken part in as a result of love.

I know that not all of us can always share or find that level of beauty and joy and yet we so badly want the physical connection - that is why I believe that these relations are so needed and that providers offer such a special and beautiful gift to us.  But I remain conflicted because I fear that when we allow ourselves to experience sexual relations in this easier way we often give up on trying to obtain the kind of sexual relations that elevate us to a more beautiful and wondrous feeling and joy.  I think my guilt arises from feeling that when providers are helping me to live with my own loneliness and needs I am at the same time perhaps allowing their willingness to assist my needs to interfere with their own efforts to achieve some higher and greater joy; this is, perhaps, similar to my sense that when I take part in this lifestlye I am delaying my own finding of that same higher and greater joy.

Please do not think that I am trying to ridicule or criticize anyone who takes part in this lifestlye!!  I understand the need; I have taken part in it for some time.  But I think that there is a clear negative and a loss for all of us and those feelings sometimes express themselves in what we can refer to as "guilt".

above other types of activites, but my take is that this makes sex work a higher called than the other types of work I listed.

As for whether being a provider diminishes the feelings for intimate sexuality, that is probably a factor of how the provider deals with it, but I believe I know some providers for whom it appreciates the feelings.

Thank you for this interesting discussion, by the way.

Even though I haven't posted here before, I often read LG's comments and others here, but particularly yours.  I know that you are a really thoughtful and good guy and I appreciate the chance to communicate with you and with LG.

This stuff is very complicated for me and sometimes I just want to try and explain my confusions and see if I can get a helpful reply.  Thanks to you and LG for that!

"Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" kind of thing...lol

And then there is the whole "need versus want" angle on this. From the hobbyist perspective, many here proclaim to have full and happy significant others at home. Their need to "higher and greater joy" as you put it has been met but perhaps the wife is not as attuned to sexual matters as she once was, or just doesn't like to give head or whatever--. So, despite a generally good and happy homelife, maybe the guy just wants to get his dick sucked and cum in a hot girls mouth once in a while- not necessarily a need but a definite want. Maybe there is guilt on his part, maybe not.

All this to say that you may be right by identifying a common denominator in man's quest for some higher and greater joy in his sexual relations. But I think it's safe to say that for some of us, we just want a good blowjob every now and then...

You may be right in your thought process regarding a provider delaying finding her own higher joy by engaging in this lifestyle, some probably do it consciously. I made a conscious decision in college not to consider marrying until I reached the age of 30 and had the resources to do so. My choice and it worked out for me. Likewise, I am sure many providers approach this "lifestyle" as many business owners do and devote considerable time and energy into their "business"- often to the detriment of a social life, love life, etc. This is not uncommon in the business world, particularly among young professionals just getting started. Providers are in the service business. Their quest for a higher joy is no different than anyone else's.

Don't worry so much about things you can't control. If you feel guilt about what you do then don't do it or learn to live with it--I know everytime I start to feel a little guilty about serving Haggen Daz to the family, high fat content and all, I buy the frozen yogurt Haggen Daz instead...same great taste with much lower fat content. Makes me feel great inside...lol

To each his/her own opinion. To infer that I "give pat, simplistic answers predicated on impulse and the need to maintain a certain type of reputation in the TER community, or self-interest promotion reasons, or the need not to allow themselves to realize and feel the pain my post suggests is often felt," are personal opinions and you are entitled to them. But just as you "fear" I am "wrong," I "fear" that your insinuations are completely erroneous and verging on slander.

First of all, I do not link my personal name to my Love Goddess activities on the board. My "reputation" on TER is worth nil to me in terms of money, since I do all the work on the board ANONYMOUSLY FOR FREE. There is not a single link to me on this board, my professional affiliations or any identifiable web site where the Love Goddess offers her billable services to the general population. So your assertion in this case remains not only dubious, but quite frankly slanderous and demeaning. You should think about that as you vent your venom on someone who is doing the work here entirely gratis, purely out of compassion for ANY INDIVIDUALS who often are fearful of speaking about their sex lives to therapists in the "civilian" community - therapists who would be very happy to "convince you" that your paying for sex, your writing reviews on this site and your mere association with TER border on addiction, psychopathology and must cease immediately - lest you should be declared disordered and disturbed!

In terms of a "need not to allow themselves to realize and feel the pain my post suggests is often felt," I fail to see why anyone would "feel the pain" that your post suggests - since it doesn't come from a provider herself, it comes from you and your projections. Yes, we may be moved to compassion and sympathy, but for whom? Your pain? The provider's? Your post deals with absolution of YOUR guilt, not a specific example of someone truly suffering. Believe me, mr.ed, we have had some very sad stories on this board, both from providers and hobbyists, and they have certainly received their due empathy. Please read some previous postings, if you can stand the graphic ordeal.

It is not my job to "convince" you not to feel guilt. On the other hand, I encourage clients [and, since you are not my professional therapy client, you are even less qualified to make inferences about my ability to look at questions more deeply] to consider these issues FOR THEMSELVES, AND MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS. If you are looking for a "professional" to convince you not to feel guilty, I'm afraid you'll have to keep looking. A true mental health professional states his/her views but ultimately lets the client come to his/her own conclusions - and deal with the consequences.

My suggestion is for you to get over the worst fear and post on the General Discussion board. Why do you care about who slams you and who won't? Let me remind you that you are anonymous too, except to the providers who know your username. At least you'll have your views broadcast to PROVIDERS all over the country. Maybe they can give you their personal opinions that will help you make your decision regarding guilt. And of course, I would suggest that you immediately cancel your membership to TER, write the administration to remove your reviews and stop paying for sex once and for all. At least you'll be putting heart where it belongs - away from providers and their abused lives.

Here is my professional opinion: your "fear" has gotten the better of your judgment,
the Love Goddess



-- Modified on 7/29/2007 4:07:44 PM

You misread what I wrote.

The section quoted about "pat, simplistic answers" was not with regard to what you wrote but with regard to theoretical responses that might come up on the general board.  You are reacting to something that was not written with regard to you at all - you previously suggested that I post my thoughts on the general board and I replied about why I did not care to do so and suggested what I thought would likely be written there in response - I was not talking about what was written here, I was trying to explain that I posted here instead of the general board in the hope of getting a more serious and thoughtful reply from a professional instead of the kinds of replies one might reasonably expect on the general board.  [I have since read it again several times and see how you could have misread it, but all I can say is, you did and if you read it again, I'm sure you'll see what I am saying is accurate.  That aside, your reaction to what you understood from what I wrote was rather over the top and, I think, suggests your own insecurities about the role you are playing here.]

That aside, there is clearly no point in going on here about this - I thought I could raise an issue that might be useful for me and others to discuss here.  You seem to have much more difficulty listening to this concern and point of view than I imagined you would.  Your comments about my posts here being somehow slanderous - even if you had read properly what I wrote, which you did not - are pure nonsense and I see no point in bothering with this further.

Good luck - I truly hope you are assisting others and providing some benefical professional advice.  Clearly, our communication did not work well so I will not bother you further.  

-- Modified on 7/29/2007 5:58:22 PM

-- Modified on 7/29/2007 6:07:46 PM

This is what you wrote:

"I wanted to post it here as a question to you because I wanted to see if I could be convinced not to feel guilt by a professional who is expert in this area and who has the experience to look at these questions more deeply and not just give pat, simplistic answers predicated on impulse and the need to maintain a certain type of reputation in the TER community, or self-interest promotion reasons, or the need not to allow themselves to realize and feel the pain my post suggests is often felt."

If you are referring to the General Discussion board in this sentence, I am certainly lost, at least grammatically. The latter part of the sentence appears to refer to the former, which clearly refers to a "professional." Unless you feel that the entire General Discussion board is comprised of professionals such as myself, then I don't see why it was wrong of me to assume that the criticism also belonged in the sentence directed toward me.

I do not have trouble "listening to this concern." In many of my postings, I have detailed providers' difficulties, both emotionally and physically, in terms of their profession. If you go through my answers and comments, you will see that I have had great empathy for hobbyists and providers alike. But what I react against is your raising a concern which is general, not directed toward a specific problem among providers, and your sentence about smelly, cheating men. It is just as prejudicial to think that a majority of hobbyists are physically and mentally objectionable, as it is to think that a majority of providers really hate their job and are "angry and repulsed by it." I disagree and I needed to point that out. But as far as my concern for providers' well-being, I think it's fairly well documented on this board.

My "hope" for you is that you terminate your TER membership, pull your reviews and again, put your energies in a much more productive place than this board or any other one on TER for that matter. If you find that providers are compromized in their jobs by sleeping with cheating, smelly men, then why contribute to the dreadful situation? Believe me, mr.ed, here is some professional "advice" for you, given freely: no one will take you seriously if you continue to act disingenuously in seeing providers for your own sexual gratification and then trying to absolve your guilt by posting messages about provider rage and disgust.

You can't have your cake and eat it too,
the Love Goddess

1. Check the dates of my reviews.  I haven't posted one or met with a provider in a long time.

2. I continue to have thoughts and concerns about the TER world; I have a number of close acquaintances here who I care about and enjoy communicating with; so I still read posts and take part in discussions on occasion.

3. My original post remains - I previously said that I could see how you misread it and I further clarified it for you.  If you would like to insist on taking pointless offense, then that is of course your perogative.  

3. I wish you the best of luck in your life and career.  Please don't bother worrying further about mine.

-- Modified on 7/29/2007 6:34:18 PM

IME, we experience guilt when we attempt to take responsibility for something over which we have no control such as another person's decisions. I think that's part of what you're experiencing with providers.

Guilt is different from shame or the acceptance of responsibility. Guilt elevates our 'suffering' to a level which requires moral certainty and that makes us feel superior to others who do not share our guilt. I agree with LG that much of your guilt appears to be the result of projection of your own problems dealing with the moral ambiguity most people raised in our culture feel about the hobby.

As for unsatisfied needs, as long as we're alive we're dealing with those.