I know most people probably wouldn't ask this question but I was just wondering.. If you meet a girl that you really love should what form of touching should you initiate first and she the first or second date always end with a kiss?

Dear Justfellinlove,

You will need to do one VERY IMPORTANT thing and that is to differentiate between FALLING IN LOVE AND LOVING SOMEONE. Apples and oranges, I'm afraid. Loving someone comes much later after falling in love and even later than being attracted to a person. It's sort of the last stop in building a relationship with another person. You will need to know a woman quite well before "loving" her. On the other hand, the word has been so misused and overused that there's little wonder why many people confuse all kinds of emotional states with "love" in them.

So if you meet a girl to whom you feel attracted (caution, you're not even "in love" yet), the form of touching you "should" initiate first is a handshake at the end of your first meeting (not date yet). Yep. Because even if you are attracted to her, you won't know if this is reciprocated. Hence, any kind of touching beyond handshake and a look straight into her eyes to signal some interest may be rejected on the spot. You'll know that you are being rejected simply by her looking away or even looking upset, bored or angry - i.e. NOT HAPPY. So if you've shaken her hand, at least you have been polite and not invasive...which means that she may actually change her mind about you, slowly but surely - or not. But remember that being polite and charming without being smarmy or phony can go a long way.

There are no rules that say that the first or second date "should always end with a kiss." Some women may be hot to trot and they'll kiss you on the first date! Others like to take it slow and may not want to be kissed until date 3 or 4. A kiss on the cheek, however, is quite Continental [to paraphrase Marilyn Monroe] and can be very elegant. You'll know if she wants more - if she turns her head toward you, perhaps a closed-lips kiss planted on her lips may be appropriate. But no slobbering all over her, neither on the first nor the second date. If she likes you, she'll take the initiative or signal interest. It's always better to be a little slow than too fast. No one likes an eager beaver except desperate guys who jack off maniacally to porn flicks [a pun, hope you got it.]

I hope this answers your question,
The Love Goddess

Thanks for the answer Love Goddess, but I notice you mention others may take it slow and may not want to be kissed until date 3 or 4, how about date 9 or 10 or is that too long for any chemistry to occur? And in this day in age, would it be safer to wait for the women to initiate the case if you are unsure of the circumstances or would that make you much less of a man by requesting permission?

And what constitutes a date? Is it when the guy pays or opens the door for the lady or does it have to be announced before hand that it is a date and not a meetup with the lady.

Fortunately, LG did as good of a job as you can with something that has so many variables involved.

When I was younger and trying to find myself socially, I was usually scared shitless on dates because I thought I'd make some sort of unwelcome advance and either end up embarrassing myself or just blow the whole thing and never get another date.  After all, most guys hear "No" a hundred times for every one "Yes" they get.

Almost all of my angst originated from some sort of expectation as to what should happen when, similar to the premise of your question.  This was always in the back of my mind as the unspoken gauge of how things were going.  But trying to follow that sort of prescribed dating timeline will just make you crazy.

As I got more experience, I realized that the only way to ever answer your question is to take all your cues from what she's doing and how she's responding to you- what you say, your physical presence, touching (or not), is she involved or just there.  All those things are how you know what to do next.  But even then, I'd usually wait until the signals she was giving me were very clear, or better yet, wait until she let me know she wanted to be kissed or touched or held.

As soon as I quit letting my agenda drive my actions (as in I want to get laid so badly I can taste it) and just let her actions and responses set the tone of how things would go, life got a lot easier.

It's so individual that there's simply no way to know the answer to your question because only she knows the answer- but she'll tell you if you listen and watch.  There's no question it can drive most guys crazy because you can do the exact same things and get vastly different responses.

I remember after a particularly bad string of dating, I'd become afraid to make any sort of move, even just a casual touch.  I just had a series of women that weren't into me, and some of them weren't particularly hot, either, but they were just as picky and didn't click with me for whatever reason.

Then one day a buddy asked me if I wanted to go to the movies with him and his wife and her best friend, who happened to be a real babe.  I think we had a casual dinner(I can't even remember I was so knocked out) and then we went to the theatre.  Within five minute of the lights going out, she slid down low in her seat and grabbed my hand and put in between her legs!  We ended up living together for a year after that.  I went from not being able to get a good night kiss with a bunch of 6's and 7's, to having a solid 9 grab my hand and put it between her legs within two hours of meeting her!  I was no better looking, no cooler, no funnier, no richer- I was the exact same guy, but for reasons I'll never know, she was attracted to me.

All I could think about was how I'd had all these less attractive women make me feel like shit by their lack of interest in, then a total babe decides she wants to take me home and fuck me.  

I had something similar happen in college.  I struggled chasing after women who showed tremendous powers of self-control when it came to resisting my advances.  Then all of a sudden I met a far more attractive woman and she really liked me and I don't even know what I did differently.  We ended up getting married.

So when you figure out how these things happen, you'll be able to answer your own question.  And let me know too, because I still don't understand it.  But I do know that it is she, not you, that will determine what you should do, and when.

For the 20 years of a woman's prime reproductive life, her entire social life (with men) centers around making herself as attractive as possible, then saying "No" to most of the men who take the bait and respond.  But deciding who she'll have sex with is the most basic female mating prerogative- she controls it, not you, hence the "gatekeeper" comparison.

Since most guys figure a woman knows within a few minutes if she has any interest in you, they don't invest too much time before moving on if their advances aren't reciprocated.   This may actually be a smart strategy, because while you might occasionally wear a woman down with your charms and convince her you're worthy, most of the time you won't and you're investing in a situation that has no chance of going anywhere.

I know this is more than you asked about, but like I said, very simple question and a very difficult one to answer.  

Don't get confused and offer her money.

One thing is for sure though - it doesn't make you "less of a man" [Jeez, where do young people pick up this kind of 20th century stuff!] to request permission to do anything. In fact, it's rather prudent.

A date has nothing to do with who pays. A date is when two people decide to focus primarily on doing something together and then do it. I'm assuming you mean "meetup" is an event where things are very casual, i.e. going to the library or to the store. Well, those things can be "dates" too. The "date" concept really only exists in the United States. In Europe, no one bothers defining what something is or isn't, and in traditional communities/developing countries, women don't generally go on "dates" unless the entire family is involved. My advice: try to follow the European model and don't worry about what a date is or isn't. Try to be observant of the girl's reactions WHILE you are with her - that's so much more important.

I'm curious - did you grow up with the Amish or in another type of fundamentalist [religious] community? What are your friends up to? Are you on facebook? Did you go to high school in the United States or were you home schooled? Just checking.

Please stop thinking about this and focus on whatever the girl is saying/doing instead,
The Love Goddess

A guy who asks a question like this is obviously in need of some rudimentary dating skills.

My comments were targeted at the level of understanding demonstrated by the original post- no higher, no lower.  If results in "pablum," then it's the result of the question asked, not the answer provided.

I think you have great advise already.  Going sloiw is better than too fast.  Light appropriate touches are a good way to see if you are welcome in her personal space.  Touching the small of her back in a light guiding gesture at a door you hold perhaps.  Hand touching without really holding hands.  A light hug of a couple of seconds...  maybe a light peck on the cheek with that hug.  These are an escalation of genuine affection.  
Open mouth kissing is sexual...  save that, if ever, for the bedroom.  Closed mouth kisses, lip to lip...  if you are close enough to kiss her cheek, she'll offer her lips or not.  Maybe split the differance & let her decide.  

Best wishes,
skb

Once, long ago back in the college days, I had a date early on in my freshman year.  The girl was very sweet and cute, I was certainly interested, but didn't want to push her too quickly.  We went on a simple date (early dinner) and chatted the whole time, no contact.  As we approached her dormroom, I agonized about how to proceed.  As she unlocked her door and turned back to me, I said, "I had a great time and really like you, but I never kiss on the first date."

Her response, "Let's pretend this is the second date!"

We had an enjoyable evening of light erotic play.

As someone else also stated, I always try to err on the side of caution rather than reckless abandon.  If a woman is interested, she will definitely let you know as soon as she is ready.

Take it for what it is worth.

I am completely under your spell, and also under your bed. Please make bouncy-bouncy with me?

I get exhausted just thinking about it  

Muy, muy, muy bien!!

....as told to Roger Kahn on a first date...

"Pick her up at 7 pm. Now five minutes into your date, at 7:05, put your hand on her crotch. If she leaves your hand there, you know all you gotta know. If she knocks it off, well, it's early yet, just after seven o'clock. You got plenty of time to call up someone else. But you'd be surprised, kid. An awful lot of famous and beautiful broads don't knock your hand off their snatch."

Sorry LG, couldn't resist.

*Leo Ernest Durocher (July 27, 1905 - October 7, 1991), nicknamed "Leo the Lip", was an American infielder and manager in Major League Baseball.

I'll admit it might not have been my best work, I just thought pablum was a little harsh.

OK, now I'll go relax.

It never hurts to ask.

Has worked for me for years.

I became extraordinarily confident in how I deal with women after I got out of the service. Something clicked.

Confidence.

Nevertheless I always ask.

"Can I hold your hand?"

"Can I kiss you?"

etc....

Works like a charm. No lines necessary.

Most decent women are quite pleased with a straight up no BS approach.

It is fairly rudimentary for the most part.

Most importantly, BE YOURSELF.

Don't reach and try to impress, you'll come off as artificial.

Try and find common ground and take it from there.

A wise man once told me, "You can say whatever you want to a woman, it's only a matter of how."

The same one said to me, "You gotta roll your dick out across the road, let it get run over, reel it in and roll it out again, you got nothing to lose."

I like it.  Get the right chemistry going.  Then reveal your interst by asking.  She'll almost certainly accept...  her hand, body, mouth action will give you clear feed back.  
skb

I like that dbl's hahahaah. "I don't kiss on the first date." That is fucken great hahhaahahahahahahaha You gotta tell me more, lol.