I know I'm going to get a bunch of stupid ass remarks from some folks, but perhaps between the worthless comments and attempts to flame or be funny, there might be some legitimate worthwhile advice. Here's hoping...

I met her almost two years ago.  I've hobbied for a few years and I knew after our first session that she'd be an ATF. She only worked at the agency for the summer, but when she told me she was leaving, I asked if I could keep seeing her weekly.  She liked me, and needed the money, so for the next year we had a p4p relationship. All was great, she had a boyfriend, saw me once a week to get her bills paid and I got my needs met too.  I'd occasionally tell her that I loved her in the heat of the moment and I meant it, but she didn't say it back. Her relationship with this other guy ended and then things started to get complicated. I asked her if we might go out on a real date and she said shed think about it. She eventually agreed, and so it stopped being p4p and we started something new. The first time she told me she loved me is a memory I'll always cherish. She still needed financial assistance and I have the means, so that wasn't an issue, at first.  Eventually it was an issue. How can I *know* that she isn't just saying what I need to hear to make the relationship last as long as possible while still getting cash from me every week?  Why do I say that? Because there is always a different reason she needs money.  And some of them just don't add up.  I'm not saying she's lying.  I just don't know. I don't know that I would have these doubts if we had met thru more traditional means instead of the hobby.  

There is a little bit of an age difference between us and she is frankly a little immature for lack of a better word. What I mean is she still has some growing up to do and still has to learn a little about the world, reality and the consequences of her actions. But I also find her freeness and naïveté attractive.  

When I'm with her, I have no doubts that she loves me, but when we are apart, I begin to wonder if I am being used or not, and have not thought of any way to find out other than to stop giving her money. So I tried. She is asking me for much less than before, but all I learned is that I can't say no to her.  But still, she is making an effort, so that was good enough for me.  

So we were supposed to go on a vacation. I was willing to pay for all the accommodations and tickets, just couldn't wait to spend some quality time together. She tells me 6 hours before the flight that she can't get off of work(current dead end job) and that the person she lined up to cover for her backed out at the last minute. So I tell her quit and I'll take care of her till she gets another job that is closer to me, but she refuses, says she is afraid it would create tension in the relationship.  So now I've lost all this money and I've spent the week alone, since she had to work.  

I don't know what to do now.  I've asked friends for advice, but they don't know how we met, so they are missing a part of the puzzle that I can't tell them. Which is why I am here. Hopefully I've given enough of the facts and not tainted the details too much that I can get some useful advice.  

But in another way, from some of the posts I've read here, it kinda feels like I'm asking for a golden shower or to be shit upon. Neither of which I enjoy.  

But whatever,What are the opinions of the ethos?
Thanks in advance to all serious responders.  
-D

Alias used because I don't want anyone from her past or mine to add things up. Oddly some have issues with an alias.. too bad.

For about a year now, I have been in a relationship with a former provider. She says she loves me.. She had a child in December, with the father of her other son (who is now about 30 months old).. She has no relationship with the Dad,, Both kids are with his parents.. She is trying to get custody and struggling with the State Agency that does not want her to have her kids

Every singe day, I hope to see her.. The last few weeks, the best we can do is to meet for 30 minutes or so in a parking lot to talk. Meanwhile I pay her rent, her heat, rent her a car, give her a credit card for food, clothing and every thing else. She always has an excuse (pretty valid really) as to why we cannot spend time together.. If her baby dad finds out about me.. he will tell the State agency.. If her step mother finds out she will do the same and on and on.

With her feeling very lousy with the pregnancy, the delivery and so on, we haven't had sex in months.. a BJ here & there.. but no good time together.. I put a text together today telling her I was done, but didn't send it. I honestly do care for her.. and hope we can get past this. The chaos in her personal life imposed on her by her Baby Daddy, step Mom and so on are tough to accept.  

I plan on telling her that of we get no time scheduled we are done.. I have to.. and for those that say.. for what you spent, you could have had.... whatever.. that's not the point at all.. I really grew very tired of the same thing with every provider I saw.. different girl.. same thing.. With a spark.. there is a lot more.. but how would I know..

So, my conclusion? I think a lot of girls who have been providers have made poor choices and seem to lack the understanding about making good choices.. so, your friend made a bad choice.. Growing up involves making better choices.. your friend or my friend. learning to do that is sometimes very painful..

Similar start to the situation you currently find yourself in.  Several of the women I've meet I've had a great physical chemistry with, but no emotional attachment.  Something that you have to be able to do when you choose this lifestyle.  

Then I met her.  Don't know what it was about her, but after seeing her several times, I was drawn to her.  She must of felt the same way about me because we started communicating on a daily basis.  The problem is that we are located in different cities.  She's left this industry and I stopped seeing others and I've been assisting her to a certain degree since.  She's told me that she loves me, looked me straight in the eye while saying this.  Has she done some things that have caused me to raise an eyebrow or to question things, on occasion she has.  I've given her the benefit of the doubt and not made an issue out of it.  You either trust someone or you don't.  It's that simple.

Today will bring a moment of truth, the rubber will meet the roadway and either this relationship will progress or it wont.

So what I am trying to say, life is full of chances.  Sometimes you just have to take that risk.  The only thing you need to ask yourself is, where do I draw the line.  At what point do you walk away if you're not unsure.

 This sounds like a sugar relationship.  Nothing wrong with that--I've had plenty of SBs. Everything's fine at this point, but problems start below.      
 You're setting yourself up for a really big fall now.  And I think a part of you knew that..as soon as you made a declaration of love to a girl you were paying to fuck.  I'm not trying to play bad cop here.  Let's try to get to the truth, or a close approximation of it.      
 Note the contradiction in the paragraph above:  You state "it stopped being p4p",  but two sentences later you admit that you were still giving her "financial assistance".   Translation:  It's still P4P but you're in denial.      

 It's quite common for an ATF/SB to cut her rate for a regular client/SD.  But that has *nothing* to do with love.  When someone loves you, there is no rate.  You sound like someone who's never had a girlfriend.    
     She's lying to you right here.  She didn't back out of this trip in order to save her job at Burger King.  She's lying and you *know* she's lying.  Translation of the above:  She has a boyfriend and that's not you.  She wouldn't be able to explain to her bf why she'd be gone for so long.   So she plays along with your vacation idea, then hangs you out to dry at the end.  You should have seen that coming.  
      My advice: drop her now. You need to acknowledge that she doesn't love you. If you can't acknowledge that fact, then you're still in denial & stuck in a manipulative relationship.  If you want to find someone to love, then try match.com or another dating site.  The escort and sugar sites are for P4P only.  Learn from this painful mistake--don't ever *confuse* P4P and love again.  Good luck.  --z  
 
 

-- Modified on 2/27/2015 10:44:56 AM

 I've never understood the assertion that truth can be determined by "looking someone in the eyes".  People can look you in the eyes & say whatever you-want-to-hear.  Any salesman can do it.  See Natalie Tran's video below, "Look Me in the Eyes", lol.  --z

But fortunately for you, I am now with the legendary and soon to be celebrated published author, Beverly Fisher (though not under that name.)

In any case, I had her read this and this is her take on your situation.

While this gal is sincere, and not playing you, the relation is not healthy at its core.

You admit that she is not that mature, and you clearly have your doubts.  Those doubts have to do with your own evaluation of the relationship which point to an imbalanced one.  This is not a good indicator of a relationship that is going to flourish.

She suggests that you find a way to end the relationship in the least hurtful way.

You should seek out a more mature person in a more favorable environment.  The hobby is not the best place to find this on account of the baggage to which you already refer.  Wouldn't it be nice to meet someone that you could then speak to your friends and family about and not have to resort to using this forum for that purpose?

(For those who know about Beverly and myself, this is a case of do as I say, not as I do.)

 Things always turn sour when someone drops the L-bomb.  My brothers, my brothers...P4P translation is always required. I was flattered when my ATF told me that she loved me, and was flattered again when my college SB said the same thing.  Here's the P4P translation:  "I love to fuck you for money."   That's not a bad thing--I'm sure these young women enjoy our company as long as we *pay* them.  And these girls are only human--they get tired of their bf's demands.  That's when they look forward to hooking up with an older guy who they like, who fucks them and then gives them a fat wad of cash.  What's not to love, lol.          Ah, ok.  Here's what the rest of us now know:  forget about love--she doesn't even *like* you very much.  To her, you're an ATM machine now.  You've made the mistake of getting caught up in this provider's messy private life while enabling her to use you.  There are gorgeous providers out there who you can have fun with...minus all the drama.  --z
 
   
 

-- Modified on 2/27/2015 1:41:24 PM

 You're basing this assertion on what, Fisher?    Even though I agree with your second assertion, you don't provide a rationale for either statement.  I think the OP is sincere--he loves this girl.   If you're going to tell him to end this relationship, you should at least explain why.  "Bev Says So" is not a rationale.   --

exit9- the use of the alias seems appropriate don't worry about that. I'd be using an alias too if I had VIP.  I don't, so had to make a new profile for the same reason.  Your serious response was very helpful.  My lady does not have some of the problems and challenges your lady does, but to know that some of the difficulties are shared between our situations is alleviating.  

BonVivant101- thank you, similar to my response to exit9, it is helpful to know I am not the only one to go through this.  You are 100% correct about taking chances, and defining where the limit should be, this maybe the best advice I have received so far.

mrfisher- this is probably the closest to fully understanding the reality of the situation I've ever been.  I think you and your lady are dead-on in your assessment.  Thank you.  Following your advice to end the relationship however is going to be difficult and I'm not sure I am ready to follow it. I maybe asking for more drama by not ending things, but I haven't had enough of her yet.  

Zangari- thank you for your advice and point of view. Your jaded, cynical and down right misogynistic comments are exactly what I was expecting. It's a genuine thank you however, as it is important to hear your point of view so that I can completely dismiss it as being out of touch with the situation I am in.  Your advice is good advice for the lowest common denominator, useful for not getting hurt in any hobby related situation. And in the beginning your advice was firmly seated in my mind. Then I had the realization that I was in a relationship with a real woman, an actual human being, not a robot or stereotype.  She maybe imperfect, but has a good heart and deserves to be thought of a person first, woman second and not judged forever as a ...wait why am I trying to explain this? Your not going to get it....um...thank you for the advice.

Thank you all and to anyone else who responds as well. This discussion has been helpful.  

Please note, I do not have VIP, so I cannot get PMs.

 Your ego is getting in the way of an honest assessment of this situation.  You've lost sight of the very nature of your relationship with this provider, which is a P4P relationship.   There's nothing cynical or misogynist in pointing that out.  
 
 Why don't you make a clean break of it & tell your family/friends about the "missing piece of the puzzle".   You're afraid to tell them because their reaction would be similar to mine.  They don't live in the P4P bubble.  A better option would be to spend some money on a therapist, who will undoubtedly point out the same ugly truths about this relationship that have angered you so much here.  I don't need your insincere thank you.  You're in pain & blindly lashing out.  I hope you get some help.   --z

and accept much less remuneration from the OP.

As to the second, I sense that there is not a meeting of equals here, and that the OP knows it.  Unless the two members of a relationship come as equals with no power issues between them, the relationship will not be satisfying at its core.  (Though admittedly, most relationships are defective to one extent or another on account of this fact.)

Also a disclaimer:  Diagnosing and treating relationships via this method is pretty much fluffy psychology.  A trained psychologist would want to meet with both parties, together and singly, in order to give an educated opinion about the situation.  I think it should be obvious to anyone reading this that our free opinions are worth exactly what the OP is paying for them.

You may well be right that the OP loves the gal.  I think she may well love him.  Sadly, this "love" is a very primitive sort mostly based on chemistry and emotions.  Mature love comes from the struggle of each party to master the needs of knowing, caring, and respecting the other individual.  If there are fatal flaws in the structure of that relationship, the relationship will fracture along those lines with sad results.

It's the right thing to do.

MDA:  Thank you and de nada.

 Let's restate for clarity:  you think the provider is sincere and *not* playing the OP because (1) she has a job & (2) she cut her rate.  Fisher, we've both been around for a long time.  Neither of these items are unusual,  providers often do both.   Items #1 and #2 don't prove (or refute) anything.
         Your parenthetical at the end of your paragraph anticipated my reply.  It also undercuts your second point.  A more important point: people in the hobby eventually develop a warped view of relationships--that they're all based on money.  Remember your high school or college girlfriend.    What did money have to do with that?  Money had nothing to do with it.     So his provider will need to meet with his therapist.   A provider and a therapist both charge for time, so who will pay who?  Maybe the Op will pay both for an hour, lol.      No, she doesn't love him and you're not helping by indulging his child-like fantasy. There's already a lot of damage here.  He's looking for a girlfriend and P4P is not the place to look for that.  Fisher, I hope you'd agree that your experience is the exception, not the rule.  --z

and I wouldn't dismiss him out of hand.  Of course you like mrfisher's advice because you want to accept his reality as a reflection of your own -  but based on information you've provided - it isn't.

It doesn't sound at all like there's a mutually supportive relationship going on here, nor would it continue if your wallet wasn't providing CPR.  Take that support away, it will die.

Bottom line ot me - you're gonna feel pain. Might as well get it over with earlier rather than later.  End it and move on.

Good luck!

Each of us has to determine what is right for us.  It's sometimes helpful to get different perspectives and opinions.  However, you have to do what you think is the right course of action for yourself

Z and I both counciled the OP to the same end:  End the relationship. We disagree on the exact reasons but reasonable people often disagree.  

The essential is to be able to disagree without being disagreeable.  
 

END OF MESSAGE

As for Zangari, it's his default setting, and if anyone wants to interject here and say "it takes one to know one" Well yes, you are probably right. lol

As for the OP, I have to mainly agree with Zangari as harsh as he is.

The short answer to the OP's question of "how do you tell if she is really in love with me?" can be reduced to this simple observation that you can make all on your own.

"When she starts making excuses to others to be with you, instead of making excuses to you why she can't be" THAT will be when you know she is starting to have feelings for you.

and yes, I do have quite a bit of experience in matters like this as well. and yes, most of the hookers I have dated, actually most women where money was the driving factor in how we first got together have failed this test. Not all, but most.

Lie to us all you want, but don't lie to yourself. You already know the answer, don't you.

I think the difference between you & me is that I have a knack of caring for people and am not a sociopath. You assume that she has a BF.. Nope she doesn't... just a family that provides her zero emotional support.. I don't disagree that she assumes that it's OK to spend my $$ but she isn't doing that intentionally.. she doing it because she can... No way I can pull the support right now.. I care for her way too much to do that.. I told her that she sees me today for a while or else.. and while you may have all of the answers to everyone's individual situations.. I did not ask for your analysis either.. I was giving feedback to the OP.. so if your input is not requested.. don't bother.. it's not appreciated.

When a woman is constantly making excuse why she CAN'T see you. She doesn't love you.

This woman most definitely DOES NOT LOVE YOU!!!

I know it's a bitter pill to swallow, but it's the truth. Now what you need to ask yourself, "Are you getting enough out of the relationship to stay with it, even though you now realize that she doesn't love you?"

Zangari might have been a bit of a dick in this thread, but he was telling you things that you really need to admit to yourself. Lie to us all you want, but you owe it to yourself to face facts.

Umm Sorry GA,  with regard to your post heading.
When a woman lies to everyone else to be with you, means she is a liar, and ashamed to admit that she loves you.

When a woman makes no excuse to anyone, nor lies to anyone about her relationship, she is comfortable with herself, and you.

I will give you wiggle room, in that she may lie to others, in order to be with you, But that sure
is not a good foundation with which to build a future relationship, nor is it a healthy relationship.

However the opinion, or message that you are pointing out the OP is valid, and straight forward. She is young, and has a different idea of what Love is, compared to his idea.
Or she is flat out using him, Only the OP knows for sure which shoe fits, and thus will have to sort out for himself what to do and when to do it.

 Is that the difference?  Let's revisit your previous post & see what falls from the tree.    
 The state agency's main responsibility is to protect the welfare of children at risk.  But those bureaucrats just don't have a "knack for caring for people"  like you do, right?    
Ok, we'll put on some music while you think of a valid excuse for her not to spend any time with you--even though you're the guy who's supporting her.    
 I see.  She can't spend any time with you because...her baby daddy will run to the state agency & tell them all about you.  Or her evil stepmother will squeal to the agency and spoil everything.  Meanwhile, you're ready with that glass slipper.  Did you ever consider that her children are better off with their grandparents than with a provider who can't support herself.  No, the sad truth is that you don't care about anything except your deluded romantic fantasy.  And you call me a sociopath.  --

IOW if a woman is doing everything in her power to spend time with you, you may have something. When she is constantly making excuses why everyone else is more important than spending time with you, you have nothing.

Better?

by others, this could be as simple as her choosing to spend a quiet afternoon with you, rather than going shopping with her sister. She can either make the excuse to you that she "has to" go shopping with her sister today and can't see you, or she can simply tell her sister that she has plans to spend the day with you. My point is actions speak MUCH louder than words, I have dated a LOT of hookers and I have learned the signs when there is something real involved and when you are being taken for a ride. I agree that maybe "lie" was a poor choice of words, especially if taken literally.

At least you aren't a stupid sociopath. lol

This guy is beyond deluded. I can't even imagine where to start picking this story apart.

This moron reminds me of many of the stupid gringos that come to Costa Rica and other Latin American countries, fall in love with the first hooker they meet and then start sending thousands of dollars a year to support their new "Girlfriend" in the hopes they get to see her twice a year. What these morons don't realize is that many of these chicas have half a dozen equally delusional "boyfriends" sending them money, PLUS they continue to work as hookers as well. The real fun is when two of their "boyfriends" come to town at the same time and the chica has to pretend to be sick and doesn't see either one of them.

THOSE guys are stupid, but exit9 here, appears to be even dumber. lol

I say this because I've done work with a sex therapist and what she's always told me is what I'm just going to pass on to you the spark you think you saw in her was actually in yourself you're the one that decided there was a spark or something special.  
something special in a paid hour or so........dont look away lol.....
you wanted to help.............what does that mean ?... to give with regreat or anything thing in return? ?.
 so now its you that wounders if she love you for what your giving?lol
this is what i havent heard in all this. she's given me complete lovingkindness great sex she holds my hand and we sleep at night we have a relationship relationship that's honest loving kind considerate give-and-take arguments every now and then disagreements and agree to disagree. I haven't heard that she or you feels like you're in a healthy secure relationship.
 medically speaking physically women are attracted to mail that can give them stability men are tracked it to looks of some sort that arouse them with this said you both have what it takes to make it happen the way the cavemen did it. so stop complaining give her money and enjoy the ride you be doing it forever whether it's with her or with someone else because the girls with you because you don't have money and she's probably not really a girl she's possibly a guy.I hear you say you want to girl to love you for you and not for your money that you want to girl to enjoy being with you but not when you have money or give anything it's not a give-and-take relationship and if you giving give and then take away she think she don't like her or that you're paying someone else to give you what you need games on when you decided to game.

I don't mean to sound mean. But, the only thing running through my mind when reading this thread is that song "I'm in love with a stripper"

GaGambler, he's compassionate  not dumb or stupid.  He knows that life happens sometimes,  and that the truth is most times, too fantastic to believe, just as the lie is the perfect alibi, where every angle has been thought of to cover.  I think love is possible between a hobbyist and a provider, the labels and filthy snickers just need to be removed from the hearts, minds, and spirits of the two people involved.   We are all human, and I cannot think of a better way to find a compatible lover than to be honest and up front about what your expectations are.  You say P4P is all it is, but what is it when you give your wife a car, a house, an allowance for clothing and food?  And let's not forget about that big rock you place on her finger when you say "I do!"  It's all irrelevant, when to souls find a connection in this fucked world of man.    So let's lay off the sarcasm, and criticism until you've walked a mile in those shoes.  

This however, is only my humble opinion.  

)O(
BlueFaery

Bravo!!  Spoken like one who has experienced the bliss of connection beyond the material, physical world.

Write on!
)O(
BlueFaery

His situation sounds a lot like a situation I was in with a guy friend....Down to the vacation, canceling last minute, everything.  Except I ended it with him in late January for good. It became too messy emotionally and since I moved away trust on both ends wasn't strong.  
My guy also told me he wasn't one to participate on these sort of sites...His named started with a D...
hmmmmm...................... THIS WORLD IS TOO SMALL! XD