have you considered dating a provider?

You said that you can be at least somewhat intimate and free with a provider.

Providers are some of the nicest people in the world, so why not?

She would understand if you want to continue to hobby.  There are men, like myself, who will never be satisfied with having sex with just one person.

After my divorce, I began to think that hobbying was all that I would ever need, but then I met the right person, who is a provider, and now I feel that I have the best of both worlds.

There's no reason you can have it too.

As for being addicted, I think the definition of an addiction is when you want to end something because it is destructive to your life, but can't.  This may be the case with you, but perhaps hobbying can be constructive if you let it be.

Another definition of an addiction is that it is a hobby that you can't afford, but that's another matter.

I don't believe there is true intimacy for a first-time provider. For me, it takes time and several dates to develop a connection.

I didn't start hobbying until my separation, and after raising a family. I still miss the "meaningful, sharing, romantic relationship". Perhaps I can find it in a provider, but very few providers can provide that.

The fact that you are talking about sexual intimacy with providers as "steak" and all other relationships as "burgers" gives me a hint about your problem, at least as I see it.   Marriage is hardly about sex--although there has to be sex in a marriage.   It is also not about intimacy either.   It is the building up a relationship between 2 human beings in all aspects of their existence.

Marriage can be difficult--as all relationships are.  I have been married almost 43 years.  There are obviously problems with my marriage, or I would not be visiting providers.   I have very close relationships with several providers.   But a marriage is very different.

If you want to have a "normal" life, you have to have "normal" relationships--looking for the "steak" in each.  It takes work and commitment, both before and after marriage.   Don't let fantasies spoil what your reality can become.

Interesting, Fishster,

Particularly the heading of your post. I am curious - are you defining sexual experiences with providers as "steak," and one with someone you truly are in love with and care about as "burger"? Or are they all steaks at first, and then degrade into burgers?

You also appear to have the answer: trust and intimacy issues...and the solution - go see a therapist. Have you done so? Perhaps not? There is a certain laissez-faire in your conclusion - and I'm not sure if it comes from disappointment or just plain resignation over a fact that seemingly cannot be altered with any therapist's assistance.

Now, as to your question - are you "destined to be basically a full-time hobbyist for the rest of your life, and not have a wife, children, or whatever?" That last, "whatever" is also intriguing to me. What is "whatever" in this case?

So here goes my feedback: I believe that as long as you are in conflict with your own value system, willingness to compromise, and desire to profoundly change your ideals, then yes, you may be "destined to be basically a full-time hobbyist." I believe this is mainly because you have created such a chasm between having a relationship with a provider and a 'civilian.'

I am sure you know this already, but there are plenty of providers who offer crappy service, just as there are loads of gorgeous and highly sexual wives who love to bang their husbands. Granted, this entire website may be deficient in the experiential knowledge of such females; in fact, many on this site have professed that if their wives were just a little more sexually active and inventive, hobbying would not be necessary. If in your case, the initial steak experiences deteriorated to burgers, could it be because there were other factors in the relationship that interfered? Such as the general lack of intimacy and willingness to go deeper in both parties?

It would be easy to put the onus of the situation on you only....since you are the one who comes forward with the questions. But I also believe that we as human beings unconsciously gravitate toward those who mirror our own capacity for intimacy, disclosure, openness...or unwillingness to engage on a deeper level.

Perhaps you have never wanted to engage in marriage and a deeper level of commitment? Hence, the women you have sought out have reflected your stance in the matter. Now, they happened to be providers, but they could conceivably have been one-night stands, or just plain unavailable emotionally. So, if you want to find "enduring qualities" in a relationship, it doesn't matter if the woman is a provider or a civilian. YOU WILL NEED TO CHANGE YOUR SEXUAL AND EMOTIONAL SCRIPTING ALTOGETHER, in order to attract someone willing to make the necessary sacrifices and compromises to make a deeper relationship work.

What I have found in my travels is that those men who say that they 'love women' are usually in love with an 'ideal' or an 'idea' of stereotypically 'female' qualities; when a woman deviates from those qualities, she is not perceived as 'female' and not particularly 'lovable.' In my opinion, to say that one 'loves women' is to objectify and to separate. I believe that this statement reflects a propensity to dichotomize and to split the world of 'steaks' against 'burgers,' men against women, 'providers' vis-a-vis 'civilians,' and 'hobbyist' versus 'having a wife, children, or whatever.'

I also believe that men who feel themselves to have successful marriages, are men who are able to perceive many shades of gray in life. These men are not perfectionists; in fact, they may even be hobbyists, as we have seen on this very board. Nevertheless, they love their wives and children and consider themselves to be 'happily married.' They don't see life in black and white, and they understand that sacrifices and compromises are necessary, not just in male-female relationships, but also at work and among friends.

I have no idea of your childhood or your early experiences, but chances are that they have influenced you and helped contribute to your emotional organization as an adult. As for the continuation of hobbying - remember that many men have experiences with prostitutes at an early age and do NOT become "addicted" - it most likely has affected your sexual scripting and laid down a template for interactions with women.

If anything, I believe you will have a chance to find a deeper emotional connection beyond short-term sexual encounters, if you begin to examine your psychological tendency to engage in 'splitting.' Naturally, it is difficult to express very profound thoughts and deeper emotional states in postings on a forum like ours, hence any answer you get here will also be limited by space, time and depth of expression.

So back to doing some 'work.' I can understand why individual therapy seems daunting. Perhaps you could find a weekly men's group and explore your thoughts and feelings in the company of others who are also wondering? True change in life requires commitment, persistence and a certain type of fearlessness - almost bravery, if you will. Until you are willing to change in depth - not just from a sexual perspective, nothing else will change in the putative "mess" you have made for yourself.

It could work,
the Love Goddess

Picture it....  you're now age 80. Never been married or had a family. You've gone from viewing wet t-shirt contests to judging wet Depends at Sunny Acres.

Anyway, you can't base a marriage/relationship solely on Sex. You don't live your life in the bedroom. There is so much that goes into a marriage that entails commitment on the part of both people. The understanding of each others needs and the sharing that truly makes a relationship can never be fully defined as it's different for each couple.

Even if you didn't have your current mindset you'd still find that you'd need to change. Maybe not give up "hobbying" per se, but there's still another "person" involved.

I consider myself lucky to have a few providers as friends-only. But that's me and it fits into my particular life-style.

Please don't take this as a scolding. Im not as eloquent as LG, but fairly practical. You appear to be aware of your deficiet and wish to correct it. I hope you find the answer.

Now, with regards to food, I never order in a restaurant what I can get at home. And I'm a damn good cook...LOL

-- Modified on 6/22/2007 9:54:02 AM