I was 22 when I had my first experience with an escort.  I loved it, and thus began a hobbying career that became a full-time addiction.  How do we define "addiction"?  Well, I spent money and time on the hobby and thus didn't do other things, even when I knew that the balance between "real" life and the hobby had gone topsy-turvy.

I love women, love having sex with beautiful women who love (or at least act so with me) sex.  But the problem is that I am not able to be as intimate and free with a woman in my personal life as I am with a provider.  

In my relationships, the sex has always deteriorated after a period of time.  I know this isn't unusual, but having a meaningful, sharing, romantic relationship--I've lost faith that I can even do it.

Trust issues.  Intimacy issues.  I know--go see a therapist.  I just wonder if I'm destined to be basically a full-time hobbyist for the rest of my life, and not have a wife, children, or whatever.

I wish I had discovered the hobby AFTER I had a wife or kids or whatever.  But now, trying to find a wife and possibly have kids--it seems even more challenging.

What a mess I've made for myself.  I've had incredible sex and amazing memories with some of the providers I've seen.  But what can I do with that?  The "high" of the sexual encounter lasts a day or two, and then it's a memory and/or review.  

There are no memories to share or enduring qualities to the hobby when compared to what we may want in our own lives.

Any feedback is appreciated.

have you considered dating a provider?

You said that you can be at least somewhat intimate and free with a provider.

Providers are some of the nicest people in the world, so why not?

She would understand if you want to continue to hobby.  There are men, like myself, who will never be satisfied with having sex with just one person.

After my divorce, I began to think that hobbying was all that I would ever need, but then I met the right person, who is a provider, and now I feel that I have the best of both worlds.

There's no reason you can have it too.

As for being addicted, I think the definition of an addiction is when you want to end something because it is destructive to your life, but can't.  This may be the case with you, but perhaps hobbying can be constructive if you let it be.

Another definition of an addiction is that it is a hobby that you can't afford, but that's another matter.

I don't believe there is true intimacy for a first-time provider. For me, it takes time and several dates to develop a connection.

I didn't start hobbying until my separation, and after raising a family. I still miss the "meaningful, sharing, romantic relationship". Perhaps I can find it in a provider, but very few providers can provide that.

The fact that you are talking about sexual intimacy with providers as "steak" and all other relationships as "burgers" gives me a hint about your problem, at least as I see it.   Marriage is hardly about sex--although there has to be sex in a marriage.   It is also not about intimacy either.   It is the building up a relationship between 2 human beings in all aspects of their existence.

Marriage can be difficult--as all relationships are.  I have been married almost 43 years.  There are obviously problems with my marriage, or I would not be visiting providers.   I have very close relationships with several providers.   But a marriage is very different.

If you want to have a "normal" life, you have to have "normal" relationships--looking for the "steak" in each.  It takes work and commitment, both before and after marriage.   Don't let fantasies spoil what your reality can become.

Interesting, Fishster,

Particularly the heading of your post. I am curious - are you defining sexual experiences with providers as "steak," and one with someone you truly are in love with and care about as "burger"? Or are they all steaks at first, and then degrade into burgers?

You also appear to have the answer: trust and intimacy issues...and the solution - go see a therapist. Have you done so? Perhaps not? There is a certain laissez-faire in your conclusion - and I'm not sure if it comes from disappointment or just plain resignation over a fact that seemingly cannot be altered with any therapist's assistance.

Now, as to your question - are you "destined to be basically a full-time hobbyist for the rest of your life, and not have a wife, children, or whatever?" That last, "whatever" is also intriguing to me. What is "whatever" in this case?

So here goes my feedback: I believe that as long as you are in conflict with your own value system, willingness to compromise, and desire to profoundly change your ideals, then yes, you may be "destined to be basically a full-time hobbyist." I believe this is mainly because you have created such a chasm between having a relationship with a provider and a 'civilian.'

I am sure you know this already, but there are plenty of providers who offer crappy service, just as there are loads of gorgeous and highly sexual wives who love to bang their husbands. Granted, this entire website may be deficient in the experiential knowledge of such females; in fact, many on this site have professed that if their wives were just a little more sexually active and inventive, hobbying would not be necessary. If in your case, the initial steak experiences deteriorated to burgers, could it be because there were other factors in the relationship that interfered? Such as the general lack of intimacy and willingness to go deeper in both parties?

It would be easy to put the onus of the situation on you only....since you are the one who comes forward with the questions. But I also believe that we as human beings unconsciously gravitate toward those who mirror our own capacity for intimacy, disclosure, openness...or unwillingness to engage on a deeper level.

Perhaps you have never wanted to engage in marriage and a deeper level of commitment? Hence, the women you have sought out have reflected your stance in the matter. Now, they happened to be providers, but they could conceivably have been one-night stands, or just plain unavailable emotionally. So, if you want to find "enduring qualities" in a relationship, it doesn't matter if the woman is a provider or a civilian. YOU WILL NEED TO CHANGE YOUR SEXUAL AND EMOTIONAL SCRIPTING ALTOGETHER, in order to attract someone willing to make the necessary sacrifices and compromises to make a deeper relationship work.

What I have found in my travels is that those men who say that they 'love women' are usually in love with an 'ideal' or an 'idea' of stereotypically 'female' qualities; when a woman deviates from those qualities, she is not perceived as 'female' and not particularly 'lovable.' In my opinion, to say that one 'loves women' is to objectify and to separate. I believe that this statement reflects a propensity to dichotomize and to split the world of 'steaks' against 'burgers,' men against women, 'providers' vis-a-vis 'civilians,' and 'hobbyist' versus 'having a wife, children, or whatever.'

I also believe that men who feel themselves to have successful marriages, are men who are able to perceive many shades of gray in life. These men are not perfectionists; in fact, they may even be hobbyists, as we have seen on this very board. Nevertheless, they love their wives and children and consider themselves to be 'happily married.' They don't see life in black and white, and they understand that sacrifices and compromises are necessary, not just in male-female relationships, but also at work and among friends.

I have no idea of your childhood or your early experiences, but chances are that they have influenced you and helped contribute to your emotional organization as an adult. As for the continuation of hobbying - remember that many men have experiences with prostitutes at an early age and do NOT become "addicted" - it most likely has affected your sexual scripting and laid down a template for interactions with women.

If anything, I believe you will have a chance to find a deeper emotional connection beyond short-term sexual encounters, if you begin to examine your psychological tendency to engage in 'splitting.' Naturally, it is difficult to express very profound thoughts and deeper emotional states in postings on a forum like ours, hence any answer you get here will also be limited by space, time and depth of expression.

So back to doing some 'work.' I can understand why individual therapy seems daunting. Perhaps you could find a weekly men's group and explore your thoughts and feelings in the company of others who are also wondering? True change in life requires commitment, persistence and a certain type of fearlessness - almost bravery, if you will. Until you are willing to change in depth - not just from a sexual perspective, nothing else will change in the putative "mess" you have made for yourself.

It could work,
the Love Goddess

>I have been married almost 43 years.  There are obviously problems with my marriage, or I would not be visiting providers.

Hold on, there. That's not obvious at all. There are many who feel that they have a fine marriage, but still enjoy providers. I like to have sex with young women, which my wife is not. My wife is fine with that and we have a great relationship. Honest!

as in civvie life, the excitement declines.

See if you can draw a line in your mind - is the distinction between providers and civvies or is it between the high you get from a short-term fling and the work you do to create a durable relationship?

Picture it....  you're now age 80. Never been married or had a family. You've gone from viewing wet t-shirt contests to judging wet Depends at Sunny Acres.

Anyway, you can't base a marriage/relationship solely on Sex. You don't live your life in the bedroom. There is so much that goes into a marriage that entails commitment on the part of both people. The understanding of each others needs and the sharing that truly makes a relationship can never be fully defined as it's different for each couple.

Even if you didn't have your current mindset you'd still find that you'd need to change. Maybe not give up "hobbying" per se, but there's still another "person" involved.

I consider myself lucky to have a few providers as friends-only. But that's me and it fits into my particular life-style.

Please don't take this as a scolding. Im not as eloquent as LG, but fairly practical. You appear to be aware of your deficiet and wish to correct it. I hope you find the answer.

Now, with regards to food, I never order in a restaurant what I can get at home. And I'm a damn good cook...LOL

-- Modified on 6/22/2007 9:54:02 AM

Thank you all for your thoughtful and interesting responses to my initial thread.  I felt it necessary to keep that message in check before filling in the other components.

I am able to make the distinction and I realize that per LG's point, my sexual scripting/wiring became impacted rather early on in my sexual development, and things have kind of followed that path in the subsequent years.

There is a woman I love and would like to have a child with.  I adore her, and she has all the qualities I would want in a partner, especially as the mother of a child I would bring into this world.

She loves me, too.  But as a very close friend--not romantic lover.  Why?  Well, we don't have that "spark" of romance and we don't have physical chemistry.  Certainly a component of the problem is that our few sexual experiences haven't gone well.  I'm not turned on, neither is she, and it doesn't feel right.  

I know there's more to life...I will accept that an engaging sex life isn't going to be a key element in my relationship with this woman--and I could continue my hobbying to satisfy my needs.

There's so much to think about and consider.  You all are considerate for writing in.

fishster

Just talk, no touch.

Then, one day, briefly touch her shoulder in a restaurant, say while helping her with her coat.

Next time, quickly touch her hand before you leave her.

One day, briefly hold her hand...say, while helping her out of a car.

Work up to a goodnight kiss.

Then a longer kiss sometime.

Keep up a very slow, controlled pace between any following steps of more intimate touch.

Yes, it will be frustrating to wait for her. But, while you do: well, that's what paid provders are for.

Is this worth a try, for the one you love?

You' right to sense that a provider and an amateur can have very different timetables of arousal or of dropping inhibition.

The True Love game is much harder than the escort game. But real living and commitment also can be fun - long-lasting fun.










-- Modified on 6/24/2007 4:03:37 AM

I'm 50, my wife of 25 years passed away 2 years ago.  I hobbied while I was married, mostly out of need, when there was no sex in my marriage. I didn't hobby for a while after I became single, for obvious reasons.  These days, I only hobby occasionally, again, out of need.

  I haven't had a civie relationship since, and am really not looking for one, but if the right gal came along......  

  I live in a small town in northern Nevada, where the single guys outnumber the single gals by about 10 to 1. There are 2 gals that are sort of interested in me, I've known both for several years. Both are great people, good friends, etc., but I just cannot picture sex with either one.  They're not bad looking, 5's or 6's anyway, and everything else about either one is good, I just can't see myself in bed with either one. I fully realize that sex isn't all there is to a marriage, but it's certainly part of it.

  I can't help but wonder if all the sessions I've had with beautiful young hotties has skewed my perception of attractive.  Although like any other red-blooded guy, when I see a cutie around town, I usually think 'wow.....'

  Recently, another of my longtime friends became single, and has sort of shown some interest in me.  I could easily see myself banging this gal to no end, and loving every minute of it! Unfortunately, she's got a 14 karat mind, and I'm not exactly made of gold. I've seen way too many marriages go to pieces because of money issues.

  I guess the reason I bring this up at all is even though I'm presently not actively seeking anything civie, the time might come when I am, and have to wonder if I'm being too picky, just like to shoot myself in the foot all the time or what.  I'd sure like to know how others have transitioned from the hobby to civies.

-- Modified on 6/24/2007 10:38:22 AM