I've been a hobbyist for about 20 years.  In the early years I thought it was all about the sex and now I am beginning to think that what I crave more than sex is the touch of a woman.  Even non-sexual touching is very satisfying to me.  A simple hug is great.

I often don't want to spend a few hundred dollars to see a provider lately (economy has hurt me).  But I will go to a licensed (read: non-sexual) massage therapist to get my "fix" of human touch.  She is a wonderful masseuse and a lovely woman too.  I have no sexual desire for her at all, interestingly.  I don't find her attractive in a sexual way.  I find her empathy and her professionalism attractive and I enjoy the  massage that she does.  I enjoy being touched.

So the question is whether the simple touch of a woman is more important to men than the sexual act?   Is the post-coital embrace more satisfying than the coitus itself?  Is holding a woman against your body and embracing her more important than the actual sex act?

Is the biological/psychological need for human touch greater than the biological/psychological need for sexual release?

I'm beginning to think that touch is more important than sex.

Dear HumanTouchMattersMost,

The simplest explanation for all this - without having met you in person and listened to your life story - is that as men age, their levels of testosterone go down, which means that they become less oriented toward propulsive/insertive sex and more susceptible to the effects of human touch. It's partly an evolutionary adaptation, in that young men with higher T levels are there to do two things - fertilize the species and be ready and able to do battle.

As you age and accumulate more resources [in evolutionary psychology, children are seen as "resources," since they preserve the species], it is important that you leave the battling to younger men with lesser resources and more incentive to be fruitful - hence it is adaptive that T levels go down and that you become more interested in "touch." With lower T levels, "sexual release" ceases to become important, while oxytocin triggers feelings of well-being while touched. In fact, massage is an excellent oxytocin-trigger.

So in terms of human development throughout the life span, you're right on the money. As you age, touch SHOULD become more important to you, in comparison to sport-fucking. But not until you have "sowed your wild oats," so to speak. If you're 20, you hardly have the patience for touching - you just want to get on with it [as a saber-toothed tiger could hover outside and you need to go and deal with it, in caveman terms].

The answer to your last question is that we know from experiments with Harlow's monkeys and also by observations in orphanages during wartime that FAILURE TO THRIVE is exactly what happens when infants are not held or touched. In addition, when mammals give birth, oxytocin is released, which in turns stimulates the licking reflex - the mother "licks" her pups affectionately and bonds with them. For human mothers of newborns, the same thing happens - oxytocin is released, making the mother bond with the infant. So from a developmental standpoint, human touch is much more important than sexual release. And in general, humans are social animals, meaning that touch is definitely a part of everyday needs due to its reinforcement of intimate bonds. From an evolutionary standpoint it makes sense - we don't want to be the race that simply fucks ourselves to death, do we?

Enjoy the caressing,
The Love Goddess

Oh, I guess you're right as usual LG.

But seriously folks, I can attest to the very change in life that you speak of.  The touching and social interaction I have with many providers is now at least on a par with the sexual interest; and I strongly suspect that as this 50++ guy ages that this trend will continue.

Count me in on that vote-I agree totally as another over 50 client of several providers-I crave the touching

One of my favorite books is about him: "Love at Goon Park," by Deborah Blum.

I think that some of us are more interested in intimacy than anything else, and that either sex, or touch or conversation or something else may provide that intimacy for different people.  I think that on some levels many of us are lonely.

And ...isn't being the center of attention and affection of a beautiful woman a wonderful thing?  Yes, it is!

"For human mothers of newborns, the same thing happens - oxytocin is released, making the mother bond with the infant. So from a developmental standpoint, human touch is much more important than sexual release."

 That makes me wonder. Seriously Wonder.  My Mother was very nurturing when I was young, always kind to me and super with all my friends ,and "never" a harsh word towards me or any of my friends, including every GF as a teen and early twenties, and they she left. "RIP" I don't remember if I was breast fed but I would wager definitely.It was the thing to do way back then.My Dad made sure the field was leveled in my youth to insure I  didn't grow up to be a Mommas boy.
 "Occasionally" in my civvy life I've met a new  lady,who isn't quite as reckless as some of the others I've experienced , and after we've dated a while and I think  she's ready to be closer than simple kisses ,she won't let me go past extreme foreplay. Even if the foreplay goes on for hours I don't get frustrated, and enjoy every minute of it.One time I dated a new GF for months and months with  no more than foreplay everytime she came over,except one night, we drank a few bottles of wine, she said "Do Me " and I passed out before I could.  When we woke up in the morning and my head was you know where, she said "Not Now, You had your chance".  I felt no frustration ,only sadness.
I wonder if extra nurturing as a youth from my Mom gave me more patience with ladies than most guys.
Don't get me wrong I'm definitely not complaining. Just Wondering .I'm going to guess the answer is Yes, in my case.
A friend who told me  about his Mom beating him with a stick doesn't have anywhere near the patience or luck with ladies as I do.
On the other side of the coin I have much less than very thin  patience, if a guy emits machismo in my proximity zone.
Action.Reaction.. More permanent than tattoos

than just pure sex. Many of the men I see want to talk, touch, caress, laugh, snuggle and make out, sometimes even more than the time spent on sex acts.  I have a real sweetheart who books "snuggling".  How cool is that?  All these things are a big part of the sexual experience and enhance it greatly.

I think, HumanTouch, is that you have simply wised up.  You are willing to pay for what you like, and know where to shop for it.  You and I and I think a lot of guys on this site know that if all one wants is ejaculation, that can be had easily enough for free.  The internet is full of porn, so you can even get the images of sex into your head for free. What you cannot get by yourself is: 1) attention, 2) touch.  To get these things, you've got to either 1) find a lover or 2) hire a provider (or maybe be a promiscuous sex symbol).  In any case you have to pay.  It's just that the currency and uncertainty about the cost is very different.  So you know what you need and where to get it.  Good for you.  Relax.

Especially you can ignore the bullshit that LG said about sabre-toothed tigers and stuff.  LG is obviously a damn smart person and full of good advice, but psychology is still a very young and descriptive field, but rather than admit that, psychologists tend to come up with pseudoscientific speculation to cover the lack of anything solid behind the pretty wallpaper.  At least that's my opinion.

First of all, my post was intended to ask a question of LG and she gave me an intelligent and thoughtful answer.  In fact, her answer actually confirmed what I was already thinking regarding the importance of touch.

Although my educational background is not in psychology, I do have a doctorate in another field and I appreciated LG's academic approach to her work on this forum.  She is always thoughtful and on point.  I don't think it's necessary for anyone here to criticize her or the field of psychology.  All fields grow and gather new insights.  That's the way things work.  Whether it be medicine, engineering, psychology, or any other field.  What we know today is more than we knew yesterday and less than we'll know tomorrow.

Her answers are always based on current literature.  She obviously keeps up with her field and as participants of this forum, we're fortunate that she is so willing to share her knowledge and impart her wisdom.  Her wisdom comes from keeping up with current professional literature and I've noticed that she often cites the authors, studies, and articles to back up her assertions.

You made a comment that I should "relax".  I think that advise applies to the advise giver as well.

It's just my opinion (as you said).

since she is a professional.  Given the wide range of questions she receives for which there isn't always a neat textbook answer, I think she does an outstanding job of integrating as much proof (and sourcing it) into her answers as anyone could possibly be expected to do.

Now, if you don't buy into the validity of psychology in the first place, well, that's your choice.  But you really shouldn't come to a discussion board hosted by a psychologist and then insult psychology and not expect to be challenged on it.

As for the sabre-toothed tigers, well, I've seen the actual human skulls with their teeth marks embedded into the back of the skull- a perfect match.  So it's not "bullhshit," since we do know humans were on the menu, even if we don't know ever little detail about prehistoric life.  

Ten years ago I posted on a thread on the LA board about PE, and used the exact same example.  We're descended from people for whom it was a real advantage to ejaculate quickly, otherwise, you might not be able to reproduce at all.  We carry their genetic legacy with us- unless that is the real source of your disagreement, In which case, this is probably the wrong board for you.

I was not meaning to be critical of LG.  It's psychology that annoys me.  In fact, I am always very impressed with LG's advice.  She's awesome.  The main reason I've been reading this board lately is because her I love seeing a master at work.  Her advice to me has been spot on.

My only point, obviously not made well, was that I think LG's advice is best when it avoids reliance on psychological explanations that 1) aren't explanatory or 2) not true.  Which are in my opinion a lot of them.  I say this as a internationally-recognized neurogenetics professor at a major research university.  Some of my work on the molecular and genetic basis of certain sexual behaviors has been widely covered worldwide in the popular press, and I still routinely do radio and press interviews on this stuff.  That said, I can't give you a biological explanation for why touch is nice.  Except I am pretty damn sure it has nothing to do with sabre-toothed tigers or oxytocin as explained by LG, because the human genome shows no signs of predatory pressure like that and experiments with oxytocin mutant mice and receptor antagonists fail to support the oxytocin explanation offered by LG.

But then again, if the explanations/rationale for the advice helped you feel better, Touch, I guess the mission was a success.  I was just trying to offer an alternative from personal experience.

This is not to be a forum for neurogenetics - particularly not since we are operating under aliases and many times under false pretenses, even on this board. However, the fact that oxytocin increases maternal behavior in mammals has been described in numerous journals, Nature among them. Nature is not a psychology journal, it covers many facets of biology. You can also see PNAS, another very legitimate source. See also citations [link attached].

Now I realize that grown men and women are not rats, but if you study oxytocin in human behavior, you'll see that it increases trust [look up the references, I'm sure you know how at this point.]

You can be critical of psychology all you want, BashfulJohn, but the fact of the matter is that you didn't turn to neurogenetics when you needed help with your little problem. I suggest that in the future, you stay away from this board, as I will continue to apply theories that stem from social sciences that you seem to deride.

Good thing you're moderated,
The Love Goddess

I'm not as nice as LG.

"I say this as a internationally-recognized neurogenetics professor at a major research university. "

I would expect an internationally recognized professor to be able to use articles properly.

I think your point was well-made. You don't like psychology and you don't know what you're talking about.

Does it matter which sex gives you the massage?

Do you feel the same with a male masseur?

Would you feel the same with a male giving you touch/sex of a HJ or BJ?

The overlap between touch and sex is extensive and complex.  Enjoy all that you can of each individually and both at the same time!

Interesting question and one I had already pondered myself.

Yes,  I have had several massages by males and they do a good but I prefer a woman.  In each case no sexual contact but I still just prefer the woman.

In fact, I was given a choice of a male or female the first time I want to a commercial massage center with many therapists on staff and I consciously chose the female.

I simply prefer a woman touching my body.  You can draw whatever conclusions you want from that.

The thought of being sexual with a man is repulsive to me.  

I'm not homo-phobic in the sense that I have enjoyed the company of a gay man (a colleague of mine).  We've spent social time together.  

However, I would never consider having any sexual contact with a man.

Overwhelmingly for all mammals, the primary caregiver is female not male. Also, let's differentiate between sexual and non-sexual touch. Sexual touch is there to excite sexually, whereas non-sexual touch is there to soothe.

Big difference in terms of intention of touch and also WHERE you touch the person,
The Love Goddess

I am sort of a skill collector; and have always sought to balance my skills. For a very long time I have been a martial artist, so back about 15 years ago I sought to balance that by learning things like massage, accupressure and the like.

I attended a standard massage school, attendance of which qualified one to take the test to become an LMT. I never took the test as I had no desire to deal with it professionally -- I just wanted the skill.

And, for those women with whom I have been romantically involved subsequently, they have greatly appreciated that skill.

HOWEVER -- back then, as part of the training, I was supposed to solicit people to receive free massages and have them send in a sort of grading form to the school. I forget how many people were required, but it was quite a few -- maybe a dozen.

Because I understood the concerns people might have, I arranged that all of these massages would be given at the school, videotaped, and that my subjects could bring anybody with them they liked to watch.

EVEN AT THAT -- not a single male, NOT ONE, agreed. When I asked why, most had no answer. Those few who had an answer said the idea seemed perverted. (Keep in mind this was just standard massage, not sensual.)

As for females? Only ONE gravid female agreed, and she was my massage partner for school anyway. All other gravid females declined.

HOWEVER, post-menopausal females more-or-less readily agreed.

This tells me it was a damned good thing I was just learning the skill for my own use; because if I had tried doing it for a living, I would have starved.

I agree, after a while in the hobby it it more about the adventure, the connection and the touch of a woman.

I find myself seeking out the massage ladies in the short term and my ATF's when the money allows.

To further complicate your question.. Isn't it the mental connection that we really crave. Just a cup of coffee with an interesting lady is very satisfying!

As LG pointed out, as we men age the T levels drop off and we're not the sexual dynamos that we (like to think) we once were.

I enjoy the simple company of women more than ever and it has nothing to do with hoping to take them to bed.  Of course, I probably could be enticed to show them my mature, experienced, tender, passionate love-making skills if the right woman was having coffee with me!

I was prescribed physical therapy for a back injury about 5 years ago and part of the treatment included massage.  I always requested a female, even though the guys there couldn't have been nicer and I had no problem having them stretching me or working with me in some other capacity.

Even though they gave me grief due to the scheduling problems it created, they also admitted that most people felt the same way I did by probably a 3 or 4 to 1 ratio.  Both men and women wanted to be touched by a woman, even in a strictly non-sexual environment.   It's actually very difficult for masseurs to make a living with just massage.

I realize that as I've reached my 50's, I am looking at women less as sexual objects than I did as a younger man.

It all follows my decreased levels of testosterone, I'm sure.

When the Dr. said there was little chance I will make it, and I should get my affairs in order, he certainly made me wonder if he might be right.A couple weeks later when the Queen of all Nurse Goddesses, whispered in my ear while rearranging my pillow,and for a moment I will never forget ,ever so gently touched her cheek  to mine and slowly exhaled , my lips tasted her Angel breath, my heart was filled with hope,I knew without a doubt my Dr. was wrong.
If it had been a male nurse with buffalo breath I most likely wouldn't  be here.
I ask her out about once every month or two and  we correspond by email regularly. She always says No on the date.. If she ever says yes you won't see me here again.
I would live happily until death if my only reward, was to share her breath.
Its one of those experiences you have to be there to understand where I'm coming from.
Puppy breath and breast fed baby breath, no where near as sweet as what I'm talking about.
I never told her what she did to me,wary it might make her realize I am strange.

Thanks for sharing that story.  It literally stopped me in my tracks.

GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!!!

How does one find the right SP with the right touch? It seems they don't want to discuss intimate details ahead of time. Hardly anyone advertises this type of specialty; often words leave a lot to the imagination. Trying out, based on this fantasy, led to disappointments.