LG,

I know well your position regarding hobbying "going off the clock".  I have a situation which I think is on the verge and I need some advise.

I've been seeing a lady who was publicly escorting, but who has since gone UTR for various immaterial reasons - none personal.  I made the connection while she was publicly providing and have since maintained the connection now privately.  The degree of mutual familiarity has encouraged a nice degree of sexploration which I think we find mutually gratifying.

She is slightly less than half my age and is quite open that she sees a very narrow range of clients now privately.  I believe that shortly she will begin to phase out "providing" even further.  She says she does not have a civilian boyfriend, and really doesn't want the "drama" of men her age - and prefers older guys.  This provider is very discreet and for the most park keeps her boundaries, other than what I will soon describe.  I know her "real" name and she knows mine.

I have actually, not intentionally, begun to limit my hobbying to her only - primarily because 1) picking are slim 2) I have found the rhythm of anonymous hobbying to be predictable and somewhat dissatisfying.  Not to mention the ever present risks to hobbying, the situation with the lady in question is convenient, relatively safe, and comfortable.  

I believe we share a mutual fondness, but she has been making certain offers along the lines of opening her abode up to me.  She has made other overtures in a kidding manner, but I know she's puttin' it out there.  She has not come out and specifically told me she wants me off the clock - because I think she needs the income.  But the overtures of opening her abode signal to me she wants more.

The question is what comprises a hobbying appointment and what comprises anything else?  To be honest, I really don't want to get into the drama of a "girlfriend".  My best guess is you'll tell me, LG, keep the drama down by keeping your boundaries and be openly honest with her.  But on the one hand I'm kinda curious where this might go...but also on the other I don't want to open up "Pandora's Box".

LG, Mr Fisher, BostonGuy....thoughts?

-- Modified on 5/10/2008 10:05:07 AM

Splooge,

Opening her abode up to you is truly only a signal that she trusts you- could mean more, but could mean just that she trusts you and doesn't want to pay for an incall when seeing you.  I have had three of my providers see me at their 'abode' instead of incall while continuing to see their other clients only at incall.  I enjoy that- being able to save them money, their trust, the familiarity and more closeness it brings.  But they are still providers and I am still the client.

I have been down that 'off the clock' road twice and while no regrets because love and friendship are always a treasure even if brief and painfully ended.

Neither of mine ended well, and that was the overwhelming comment on the various posts I had read on this board prior.  The is much to be said for advice from 'those who have gone before us'!

First time was supposedly 'true love' discovered very rapidly.  We started seeing each other off the clock, many promises and plans made, 8 weeks later, she went back to a previous boyfriend.  Very painful but a wonderful 8 weeks.  But now I lost a lover, friend, and provider as her boyfriend goes ballistic if he even thinks we are still in contact.

Second one I thought a strong friendship had developed over time, we managed to forge a relationship where I still booked her frequently for paid sessions, but we got together a lot platonically off the clock (never any sex in the off the clock).  The platonic time even included spending the night at her place, sharing a bed, but no sex.  Well that is now severely strained and may not last much longer- the worst part of that one is losing a friend.

This next comment will undoubtedly render some sparks because it is an unfair generalization, but at this point I feel many providers don't have the capability to value friendship and long term relationships.  I feel they can turn it on and off at will- that because they engage in paid intimacies for so long, they lose the ability to appreciate it and they fear it when it is real.  God knows we hobbyists are a mess too.  I don't think any of us- providers or hobbyists would be here if we were masters at relationships.

-- Modified on 5/10/2008 10:58:03 AM

-- Modified on 5/10/2008 11:07:34 AM

-- Modified on 5/10/2008 11:09:54 AM

-- Modified on 5/10/2008 12:26:55 PM

Dear BigSplooge,

In answer to your question: there isn't anything dead-on specific that defines "a hobbying appointment" other than that there is one factor that must be present: it is an event designated to  obtain sexual services for the exchange of another commodity. As to what that commodity may be - money, goods, other services, etc. is up to the agreement of the "hobbyist" and the "provider." Once there is no such exchange, then I would define the situation as "anything else."

So the minute she stops charging, it's off the clock. And the minute she starts again, it's on the clock. Simple as that. Let her make every single move [if you can handle it,] and see where it goes. Or, just ask: Is this an invitation to go beyond our current financial arrangement?

Needn't be too complicated,
the Love Goddess

The money is also a boundary that exists between you and the lady. In addition to the money being the way that the lady pays her bills it is also the most prominent factor in keeping the relationship friendly but still business.

Honestly BS, I would not be in a big hurry to assume that she wants anything from you other than what she has right now: A mutually beneficial, satisfying, and very friendly arrangement. I spend plenty of off the clock time with my two favorite ladies but it is always part of an appointment that is booked and paid for. I do occasionally have lunch or dinner with one gal if she is in town where there will be no appointment attached to it. Of course, there is no sex either...

I agree with LG, this is pretty simple.  She is either charging you or she isn't.  She really holds all the cards here and I think it would be unwise of you to assume otherwise.

-- Modified on 5/10/2008 5:35:13 PM

-- Modified on 11/15/2008 11:26:58 AM

One of my really level headed provider friends and I have discussed this issue-  

Her undeniably logical point-  why would any level headed thinking provider want to turn a paying gift horse in to a freebie?

There was a provider where I thought the relationship was hovering between a client relationship and a nonclient relationship, so when I made the appointment I asked (it was a face-to-face conversation at a party at which we we both guests), "Will this be on the clock?" She said, "Friend rate." I thought, "OK, we are on the clock, but at a reduced rate." However, she ended up going to sleep in my arms, and the one-hour appointment turned into a 16-hour overnighter. (This was at her house and a couple who were friends of hers from her personal life, and who I met, were staying in the house in her guest bedroom that night.)

Is that appointment on the clock or off the clock? It certainly is like no other provider appointment I've ever had.

Did I overstay my welcome? Probably, although I was trying to be sensitive to that possibility at the time. Even in hindsight it feels like she wanted me there that night. Am I confused? Definitely.

She and I live in different cities. She doesn't like email and I don't like phones. Communication since that evening (some months ago) has been almost nonexistent so what at the time I thought might be the beginning of something was probably the ending.


-- Modified on 5/11/2008 4:18:16 AM

-- Modified on 11/15/2008 11:27:55 AM

She charged you. The length of the appointment or what happened during the time spent is not the issue here. The only fact that is relevant is the fact that it cost you money to put the two of you in the same room together.  I humbly submit that what you thought was happening beyond two people enjoying a very enjoyable and friendly business arrangement was unfounded. Honestly, guys seem to have a much bigger problem with this than the ladies do. Compartmentalizing is something that providers are, by necessity, very good at it.

While I agree that sixteen hour appointments, dinners, walks in the park or any other non sexual activities or extended visits can certainly cause some ambiguity in the "relationship", the one fact that does not change is that there is still money on the table.  Once the money goes away, COMPLETELY, the real confusion starts...

I spent over ten hours with one of my regulars this past Friday and paid her for two. We had a "matinée" hung out, had dinner and then boinked and talked until well past midnight. On other visits she has stayed over. We have become great friends and keep in touch between sessions but the one constant is the envelope full of cash that is always waiting for her when she arrives.

Once the envelope goes away, then and only then do you cease being a customer.

-- Modified on 5/11/2008 5:56:04 AM

Why on earth should she do anything to stop the money train?  The biggest mistake that guys make is forgetting that this is a job for the ladies. They may like sex, they may even like you but they don't charge for it simply because they can. It is how they pay their bills! The reality is she isn't going to retire young by boinking guys for free that are willing to pay her.  The deeper reality is that, if you did start getting it for free, you wouldn't be able to handle the fact that she sleeps with other guys for money anyway...

Mark 12:17:

"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars."

In this case, she is Caesar and the things you render are the envelopes in exchange for which she offers her earthly delights.

Case closed there.

Now, tell us about your real feelings for this woman.


Do you know her birthday?  If so, do you call her on it?  Do you bring her a gift?

If she called you at 3 AM to say she has an emergency and needs you to come over to help, do you, without even questioning, jump out of bed and run over to help?

These are the details that seperate NSA sex from a relationship.

And, as we all know, the hobby is the cheapest way in the world to enjoy great sex, by a country mile; so that is one issue that shouldn't even have to be discussed.

It sounds like you have a great thing going there.  Don't mess it up.

I think it makes a difference whether you or married.   I am married.   I have a somewhat similar situation with an UTR provider whom I see regularly--always in her own home.   She sees no one else professionally, and she does not have a boyfriend or want one.  

I have urged her to get a boyfriend because she can't get "love" out of a married man twice her age, but she says she has been hurt too often.  Recently she wrote me a text message saying that I am the best she has and all she needs.

But because I am married we both know that it will never go anywhere.   Nor should it.   She invited me to go with her to a museum, but I have pretty much ignored that because I don't want her to rely on me.

If you are not married, it may be harder for you to draw that line, but in my opinion you should

I get close to my favorite providers- know their birthdays, am there for them in an emergency call, talk often, somnetimes even visit between visits off the clock-  they are friends.  I still pay and it is still nsa.  However, occasionally even these have gotten wierd and blown up.

-- Modified on 5/12/2008 5:26:05 AM

LG, it goes like this...she never specifically asks me for $.  I call her, tell her I have time available, she is almost always available, I come over, I lay the donation down and we're off to the races.  She never acknowledges it nor does she ever specifically ask for it.  I've seen her enough times she knows I'll give the donation, so it's tacitly understood.

That's what makes me wonder about this.  Her incall *is* her abode, so the invitation made to "stop by" occurs when I'm there - on the clock - makes me wonder what that's all about.  I think what she's trying to say is she'd like to see me more often, but perhaps not as a client - whatever that means.  Maybe she'd just like to talk.  I don't know.  That's why I'm asking you (g).

I guess the next time she says that, because she says it almost every time we get together, I should just ask her the question you posed - which I think is an excellent way to phrase it.

Best,

BS

...see the situation is, I'm a bit freaked about the notion of going off the clock.  I mean, it's like she's going to have to be the one who would say to me, hey look BS, you don't have to give me $.  She already told me I was paying her too much and told me to reduce the hourly rate.  That was several months ago.

I guess I'm just not sure where she's going with the invitation to "just drop by".  It seems like an invitation to go "off the clock".  If she calls me to come over, as I asked her to do, does that mean it's off the clock?  Does it mean I collect the $ (lol).  Not sure what it means.  I'm intrigued but at the same time, it's kinda scary in the sense that it could mean there are other intentions.  I think I just need to ask her the next time she offers up - which is everytime I visit for booked time.

BS

...I implicitly understand she needs the money.  That's why I'm confused by the offer.  Am I to assume if she offers up, it's a off the clock visit for which anything may happen?

I told her that *she* can call me.  I may take LG's cue and ask her question - which I probably will the next time she offers up.  Or, when I appoint, I pay.  When she calls me, I won't.

BS

KL,

We share almost everything in common, including the attributes of the "provider" in question.  All I can say here is she sees *very* few clients, and I, so she say, am the only one privy to her private abode.

I also inquired surely there are lotsa guys her age with whom she surely has daily contact who would want to date her.  She says yes, there are guys in the civy world who want to establish a relationship with her, but she says she's not available and really doesn't want to begin a relationship with a guy her age.  She says she prefers older men and want's to be married in a couple of years and have kids, i.e. she wants to settle down...with somebody.

See, I can see this as a LT UTR relationship.  It may just evolve into that.  It seems to me the boundary between what's professional and what's personal is $.  And that's what scares me.  I don't want it to get personal.  But at the same time, I'm intrigued by the notion of her wanting me off the clock.

This woman is very smart.  She knows what she's doing.  She's making all kinds of overtures, IMHO.  I can't go into specifics.  I know she needs the $, but I also think her offer is a way of telling me she wants more.  Some of the things she's saying to me tells me the same thing.

Thanks for your reply.

-- Modified on 5/11/2008 7:19:17 PM

In the morning she was up before I awoke. I got up and dressed and left with only a few words exchanged. Not expecting to stay the night I had given her the donation the evening before.

I think you are right about my own inner conflicts causing the window of opportunity to pass. My wife of many years had died (lung cancer metastasized to the bones) about a year before this. I'd not spent the night with anyone else for more years than I care to count and I wasn't expecting to spend the night this time. In truth, as I look back on the experience, I wasn't prepared for the emotions unleashed and I was less than completely comfortable. I didn't think the emotions showed, but they probably did.

In any case, for whatever reason, the options expired.

-- Modified on 11/15/2008 11:29:31 AM

Now there is a reply with wisdom---   had a provider start talking little ones once...  scared me away.

-- Modified on 5/12/2008 10:00:48 AM

Last week a provider that I have been to twice recently treated me so much differently than our first encounter.  We just let it go with the flow and it was so much more erotic and exciting.  She asked me where I was going that night.  She also mentioned that she was a really good cook.  I was flattered but I was honest and told her that I was going home to my wife.  Even with the extra erotic atmosphere and more open sexual experience she still watched the clock as she has lots of guys lined up for the rest of the day.