I've seen a provider who I know to engage in unprotected sex.  

How do I know?  Firstly, I have had unprotected sex with her on several occasions, and she showed no concern about doing so.  Several hobbyists on this site, contacting me as one of her reviewers, inquired about BBFS and indicated they received it from her--some very bluntly, others in a thinly-veiled manner.  For the record, I never indicated to anyone that she provided this service.  

I assume that since she has done this with me and several others, she most certainly is unsafe quite often.

I take responsibility for my health, so it's clearly my responsibility to look out for myself.  I don't blame her.  

I think it's clearly her responsibility to be safe, and that a provider can't rely on a client to use good judgment, particularly in the 'heat of the moment'.  I do understand her short term logic for these decisions, but I can't understand the risk-reward calculation at all.

I wonder how to approach giving her advice, or if it's at all appropriate for me to do so.  She probably has no interest in my opinion and I hold no sway over her, so I doubt I could have much impact upon her decisions.  And, of course, it's none of my business.

I separately wonder about the ethical implications of keeping quiet about this.  I've resisted telling anyone about this, as I suspect it will most likely attract more interested hobbyists than it would discourage, probably causing her unsafe behavior to escalate.  And, of course, I'm selfishly concerned about myself and any fallout should I divulge something about her.

(By the way, I'm posting this via a separate account, in case anyone wonders why I don't show reviews, posts, etc.)

Ethical, vide?

Surely you jest. Of course you know this already, but it bears repeating - this is a FUCKING business, full of risks, dangers, no ethics [except for whatever subjective rules people wish to make for themselves] and no morals unless self-imposed. That's the nitty gritty [and I mean gritty!] of this business and it seems that you have somehow understood this by stating that you "take responsibility" for your health.

Now, I'm not going to go into some kind of moralizing, since an ethicist/philosopher would find tons of holes in whatever argument was proposed here. By the same token, since it seems that some form of nihilism rules, at least in this situation, I would say that your advice may fall upon deaf ears. So, if every individual is for himself/herself in this instance, I would say BACK OFF AND REMOVE YOURSELF FROM THIS SITUATION altogether.

As to your own transparency toward other hobbyists, well, I think you've already made your choice by posting from a separate account. The fact that you think that your admission will attract more interested hobbyists is an interesting theory. I'd say that on this particular board, where people seem to have some very self-imposed ethics on both sides of the fence, I'd say the majority would be repelled, outraged and largely horrified. Of course I could be wrong, but I'm not so sure.

As to what the provider does or doesn't do, that's up to her. I'm more concerned with you, despite your claim of responsibility for your health. Quite frankly, I don't see your position that it's "clearly her responsibility to be safe," while you are enjoying the benefits of her unsafe behavior. To me, this seems somehow illogical, but to each his own. Aaah...what to say? I hope you enjoy disease as much as you enjoy health, because baby, you really are engaging in some very risky behavior.

Have a happy and safe holiday - I guess,
the Love Goddess

-- Modified on 12/21/2008 3:57:00 PM

is use a condom if you still want to see her. You also could refrain from unprotected oral sex if you are worried. I guess there is still some risk for some of the std's but very low with a condom. For hiv almost neglible with a condom. Even if it broke and she had hiv the odds are extremely low you would be infected. You don't have to do bbfs with her just because she lets you. Your other option if you are worried about it is to quit seeing her.

I would not give her any advice about this unless specifically asked. Personally if someone contacts me about somebody I have seen I just give a reccomendation and tell them to read my review if they want more information. I won't go any further than that.

-- Modified on 12/21/2008 5:17:26 PM

See her or don't see her. She is not forcing you to have unprotected sex. Nor is she forcing any other guy for that matter.  

Your obligation? Sorry but beyond protecting your own health I don't see where you have one. Again, no one is forcing anyone to do anything here.

"Separate Account"? Not sure what you mean by that but be careful. TER's software can detect two different account names posting from the same IP. It could get you banned.

No matter which step you take you will breach an ethical duty to someone. If you keep quiet, some would say you breach the ethical duty you owe the male TER community as a whole because potential clients of this lady need to know the risk she is taking to determine whether they are still willing to see her. And if you wrote  a review on this lady and did not disclose this, you have escalated your conduct from a mere failure to disclose to concealment.

        And some would say you also breach an ethical duty you owe to other providers, who likewise should be entitled to know that you have engaged in unprotected sex with this provider.


        If you go public, however, some would say you breach the ethical duty of confidentiality you owe to this lady. No, this ethics code has not been written yet but, unless she has consented to this disclosure, I do not think you can fairly disclose this without breaching a duty to her. She may view this as a special privilege granted only to you. The other stories you have heard may or may not be true, but they are hearsay. Disclosure certainly would hurt her business by discouraging responsible clients, even if her phone never stops ringing from guys as irresponsible as she seems to be.


        In the end, the ultimate decision becomes a balancing test with the most important factor being which ethical duty if breached is likely to cause the most harm. This balances out in favor of disclosure, since there is a possible offsetting benefit to the lady of discouraging future risky behavior. On the other hand, you save yourself a lot of personal grief by keeping quiet. But if you let this factor take sway you are not making an ethical decision at all but simply putting your own self interest first.

     Obviously I do not agree with the “no obligation” to anyone view. There is honor even among thieves and the duty to act rises in proportion to the risk. Suppose we took this step further and you advised you had discovered she had an STD. Would we still say “no obligation?” Your case is one step removed from this easier dilemma.

        And the “no ethics unless self imposed” view while correct is a little misleading, since the great majority of ethical codes are self imposed by the group in which the individual is a member-this is what distinguishes ethics from laws. That you would pose the question shows that you have already figured this out.

I don't see it as an ethics question at all. Everyone is responsible for what they do. He should use a condom or quit seeing her and keep quiet in my humble opinion. I sure would not believe everything guys say to each other about providers. Alot of it is juvenile gossip.

Your answer is simple.... if you know she is careless and barebacking multiple people..... get your head on straight and quit seeing her.

The difficulty.... bbfs is more common than anyone admits.  I've had three of the most reputable providers in my town pull me in unprotected in the heat of the moment.  All three I have a close relationship with, have seen many times, and we just let common sense fly in the heat.  I believe all three to be mostly careful... all three test quarterly, I tested after each... luckily clean.

Sex is passionate and sometimes foolish business and not without risk, even protected.... since no protection is fool-proof especially from herpes.  So you make your choices and live with the consequences.  

But if you know she barebacks multiple, and one in four has herpes, you are asking for herpes at the minimum.  Answer clear... quit seeing her.

wouldn't the real answer be if you are married to just have sex with your wife and if you are single find someone, both get tested and then only have sex with each other.

If he quits seeing her he is now relieved because another provider he sees does no bbfs with her clients. Perfect reputation in the gossip circles. Now he's safe right?  Whoop's she has a boyfriend no one knows about that and they do bbfs. Whoops the boyfriend happens to do bbfs with multiple other women in civvie relationships. Whoops the women the boyfriend has bbfs with also have multiple male partners they do bbfs with. Oh no, one of these womens sexual partners is bi-sexual and has  unprotected anal sex with other guys. Suddenly the safe provider is higher risk than this poor woman guys love to gossip about possibly ruining her career. This woman some want to expose may have no bbfs outside the hobby. So now she is a much lower risk than the other hypothetical provider who never does bbfs in the hobby.

Oh and don't give me this the heat of the moment stuff. If a provider pulls it in how about pulling it out and telling her you prefer to wear a condom? I've never had that happen but that's what I would do and I sure would not tell anybody else about it. They can take care of their own issues. If guys can't control their behavior they need to accept the risks instead of gossiping to each other about who does what.

You are not going to be able to gauge your risk based on incomplete, inaccurate information. I still say don't worry, be happy, wear a condom, get tested regularly, and ignore the gossip about who's doing this or that. Don't try to make an ethics issue or chastise providers for what they do when it is one's own personal responsibility to wear a condom.



-- Modified on 12/22/2008 2:57:10 AM

1. he discovered she had a serious STD; or
2. she robbed or theatened him?

Are there any facts that would trigger a duty to disclose in your view?

If you're clean, and you know you're clean, you've no responsability to her.  Her health is her responsability.

Having said that, you're playing russian roulette.  I'd be very concerned about a provider who has no idea whatsoever on my history, or her other hobbyist's history, allowing uncovered FS.  You're sleeping with every guy she's been with, and every provider they've been with, and every guy those providers have been with...in theory.  That's a lot of people.  This business carries enough risk for me even with cover.

I like DATY, and BBBJ, and know there are some risks there.  But if my provider offered even once to go bare back FS, that would immediately end our "relationship", I'm sorry to say.  That act greaty increases the risk of other, non-FS contact.

Well those are interesting scenarios. I will look at this as if it was I who was dealing with this. If I knew she had an std I would feel no responsibility to warn anyone about this.  Frankly I would still see a woman I knew had hiv if I had a strong connection with her. If I used a condom the odds that I would contract hiv are miniscule even if the condom broke. I won't get into it but people should research what the real risks are for contracting hiv especially female to male transmission, via heterosexual sex and draw their own conclusions.  I would also see a woman who had herpes if I liked seeing her enough. The odds of getting this when it is not active and using a condom are also low but possible. Hopefully if she had a bacterial infection she would get treated and be good to go.

I frankly do not know what I would do if a woman robbed or threatened me. I would be so stunned she could probably rob me while I was in shock I cannot imagine this happening as I would not see anyone who did not have an excellent reputation.  I guess anything is possible and I would cross that bridge after it happened. I am leaning toward not telling anyone but just am not sure what I would do.

I can't think of any facts that would obviously compel me to out a provider on TER.  There probably are some but I don't know what it would be.

You can't have conditional ethics.  Violating them for riches is the same as violating for pennies.

on this issue (and maybe the only one) although I'm not entirely sure what the LG's position was on the pure ethical duty to the community issue.

Now check out the Vegas Board, Cal, and consider the real life consequences of taking this view.

-- Modified on 12/22/2008 8:32:01 PM

As I have stated before, marikod,

I don't think there exists a verifiable, quantifiable, enforceable "ethical duty to the community," even if such a duty may be desirable. One thing we all need to understand here is that TER members who post reviews and go on discussion boards are A MINORITY. Check with Staff if you don't believe me. Most guys who use TER do so only to find providers, not communicate with others about their experiences. All the back-channeling, posting, communicating, meet&greeting, whitelisting, reviewing, etc. is conducted among A MINORITY of clients of prostitutes.

You can certainly imagine that clients and providers would have some kind of responsibility toward "the community;" the reality, however, is that what takes place under the covers stays under the covers. So if there is bareback action, you won't know how much of it there is, who's doing it or where it's happening. Discussion boards and back-channeling is where you find out. But, as stated previously, this is among a minority of men who pay for sex. So the ethics issue becomes one of self-policing, up for interpretation, ignored or adhered to at will - among a relatively small group of people.

As far as I'm concerned, I think NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND SHOULD DO BAREBACK. Period. If there is a provider who offers bareback, STAY AWAY. DO NOT PATRONIZE THIS TYPE OF SERVICE. This has less to do with ethics (for me anyway) and more to do with containment of possible sexually transmitted infections. As for telling others - I guess if you think it's going to help, then do it. But rest assured that the message will only travel in very limited circles. And that's where the every man/woman for himself/herself comes in. Think of your own health and be responsible toward yourself. That's the best you can do.

Hope that settles it - I am in no mood to have some abstract ethics argument about this!
the Love Goddess

sex with a condom is also Russian Roulette. The only difference is that the odds are better with a condom. How much better depends on the STD. The odds are probably 20 times better for gonorrhea and 7 times better for HIV. (If you are concerned about gonorrhea you should use a condom for oral sex. Gonorrhea transmits very well that way.)

I also don't buy your analogy stating you are having sex with everyone your provider ever had sex with. Either she is infected or she isn't. Period. If she has a recent STD test showing she is clean her history before taking the test (ignoring latency periods and false negatives) simply isn't relevant.

I find it sadly laughable that someone who has ADMITTEDLY "enjoyed" this bareback full service with this provider several times suddenly has an attack of conscience about it. What STD did you contract?

Andi

PS I hope like hell I've never bedded you or anyone else who has "enjoyed" bbfs with this or any other provider or civvie. Your irresponsibility could very well negatively affect the lives of every other lady you see and every man she sees after you and on and on. It's disgusting and I have no problem applying  integrity and common sense to the behavior you evidently have applied neither to...and I am very well versed in how easy/difficult it is to contract and pass every STD.

...when I still had my training wheels, I remember reading on the newbie FAQ (a very valuable service, BTW) an admonishment which repeated succinctly goes something like this:

"If a provider offers you BBFS...run...don't walk...run from the session"

I think those words are always prescient.

Vide, if you have not gotten some lab work done, I suggest you get the full battery done...NOW.

BS