Hello LG,

You may have seen some of my posts, I have been lurking here for a while with as open a mind as I can possibly have, and trying to see my husbands other world that he has/had been living in for almost 2 years.

He states to me over and over, that he went into this because he did not want the emotional committment, because his love was and always has been for me.  The emotional part of me finds this hard to believe, but the rational side can somewhat understand.  This has been the most painful experience of my life, I should be mad as hell and run like the wind.  However I find myself wanting to try to improve our lives, and stay in the relationship.  He has been my friend, lover, confidante, for most of my life.

One common theme I hear, and excellent advice you gave a couple of threads down, is talking with one's partner about what they both want in life.  What would you think is the problem if my husband does not like to discuss the intimate aspects of our lives?

I do admit to my faults, I was not happy with the weight gain after having our second child, I have always suffered low self esteem from one degree to another, and at that time it was probably the lowest in my life.  I admit to not taking as good care of myself as I should have, I was lost in our childrens needs, soccer mom and all that.  It has been difficult to find time for us, and when we did have spare time, we just wanted that good old *me* time, problem is, we did that alone.

He states he turned to escorts because he was not getting the intimacy that we used to share, and that yes the weight bothered him as well.  He says that he had tried to spice up our sex life with trying new things, etc, and in looking back, I did see that he did try, and unfortunately I was too tired, too inhibited, etc.  Example, without getting too graphic, he loves 69, and I like it as well, but it was horribly uncomfortable for me personally due to the saggy baby belly, as soon as it would hit his, the romantic feelings I had would go, and I would get depressed and draw more into myself.

To my credit, I do not consider myself his mom or a *nagger*, as most people consider wives to be.  We used to have very good communication, I had no problem with him going out with the guys to strip clubs etc.  

So I guess my long winded main question is this.  In trying to improve the aspects of our lives that need working on, I have tried to have a blunt frank talk to him on several occasions, asking him what he wants added into our love life.  He gets embarassed, and turns it around and asks me what I want.  I bite back my inhibitions and tell him what I like, what I would like to try, and the recent new things we have tried, how good and liberating they feel.  Yet he never really gives me an answer.

What does your gut and experience tell you about this?  Does it mean that lack of intimacy was never the true reason he sought out escorts, and that it just sounded like a good excuse?  My fear is that he is the type who seek out escorts for the variety alone.  If this is the case, I really see it going nowhere, other than wearing wigs and totally changing my look every other night, and that scares me.  I don't mind a little role play and acting in the bedroom, it can be sexy and fun...but if it is all he is after, then I wonder if he is really into the real me.  You can probably see hints of my low self esteem, eh?  lol...still working on that one.

I guess I am looking for advice, experiences, and gut reactions.  I am and always have been a one mate gal.  I am not going to apologize for that, it is who I am, and who I am comfortable with.  It is not about religion, just me, and there is nothing wrong with that.  I have toyed with the idea of letting him go out once in a while with a provider...but as much as I tried, I cannot get comfortable with that.  My open mind goes only so far.  Foot on the other shoe, I feel if he cannot abide by my wishes, then he has every right to live how he wishes, I just cannot be a part of his life that way.

I believe seeing a therapist, marriage counselor, sex therapist would be beneficial, however unaffordable at this point.  Since I found out about this, I have been hospitalized twice due to heart attack symptoms, and am currently ill with an ulcer, and anxiety symptoms.  My anxiety is out of control.  He also had an incredibly bad and painful therapy experience when he was a kid, and loathes therapists, which I have always known about, and do understand.

If you have made it this far, thanks.  I have gotten advice from some folks here, to bring my questions to you, and I have ready many of your posts, you are open and honest, and that I appreciate.  If you can find the questions I have asked in all this, lol, or if you have any gut reactions that you see in what I have written, please no holds barred, just shoot em out.  I really appreciate any advice I can get right now.  My health is not good, and I feel I need to make a decision on what to do soon.

Thank you for reading, LG

Dear sassy12345,

First thing first: do you have medical insurance at all? Because if you do, you can certainly go to a psychiatrist and get some help, since you have anxiety "out of control" which is a mental disorder and clearly treatment-reimbursable by any insurance company. This is a must, before any couples therapy or even bringing your husband along with you. HOW CAN YOU THINK CLEARLY AND RATIONALLY IF YOU HAVE AN ANXIETY DISORDER? There is no way. And in our profession, we treat the most acute illness first. As to the ulcer, which is not generally from stress, but from the bacterium H Pylori, I am assuming you are being medicated for this. Having had this bacterium myself, I can attest to the fact that it puts a definite crimp in your relational and social style. And so if you haven't, please see your nearest GP for antibiotics and H2PPI's like Nexium.

My second intervention in this case would be, as I stated previously, a visit with a psychiatrist who can assess the anxiety and treat it medically. If your brain is already in high hear from your stomach issues, having all these discussions with your husband will not contribute to lowering your anxiety in any meaningful way. Even if you DON'T have insurance, there are free psychiatric clinic in every major metropolitan area. Every county has a mental health helpline, and I urge you to make use of it. At this point, your husband's extracurricular activities are not your problem - your problem is YOU AND YOUR HEALTH.

After your anxiety is controlled with possible medications AND some visits to a psychotherapist, then MAYBE it's time for you to take stock in your situation. What I see happening right now is that you are hyperfocusing on your husband's behavior and not spending enough time on your own will to power. Going on this site or others like it will not help you "understand" him. Actually, it just makes you more dependent and passive, since you are investing so much energy in what makes him tick. FORGET ABOUT HIM AND HIS PROCLIVITIES!!! You need to start making some assessments as to what works for you. And yes, you can be a one-man woman, but not if the man is not right for you. His psychotherapeutic experience as a child is no excuse. We've ALL had bad experiences at the hands of doctors, dentists and perhaps even therapists as children, but that shouldn't stop us from pursuing good physical and mental health, should it? What about YOUR wounds? You seem to disregard them quite freely in favor of what to do with your absent hubby.

I don't like to give tough love to someone I've never met in the therapy room, but I must say it: this type of excuse-making for your husband is most likely what landed you in this pickle in the first place. I don't know if you ever lost the weight or got less inhibited in bed, but girlfriend, you need to develop the "sass" that's in your username. And your husband can't help you with that - that's for you to find in women's groups, either in person or on the Net, in a compassionate therapist's office or with close friends who see the issue a little more objectively and who can be of ACTIVE support to you.

As to your husband's actions and reactions at this point? Who knows. Let him write a post here and come forward with his viewpoints. Maybe he doesn't want to be in a relationship with you anymore and he's just too chicken to admit it? Maybe he is confused? Maybe he wants to screw whoever whenever, regardless of what you have to say or feel about it? Again, who knows. He's not here to tell us. But what's really of issue here is that you develop the following:

a) emotional self-reliance
b) healthy self-esteem
c) capacity for self-soothing
d) the ability to set limits
e) the resolve to protect yourself
f) capacity for assertion in the face of adversity
g) knowing when to say NO to anything and anyone

Your husband isn't going to help you with that, and you can't really expect him to. As to what to do - when you have developed the above, you'll know exactly when, how and why to act in your own best interest. It's not wrong, it's healthy. And who knows, your husband may actually appreciate your newfound guts! Yes, it's hard work, but that's what needs fixing right now, not necessarily your husband.

Go to the phone now and dial, please,
the Love Goddess

Thank you, Lg, I asked for straight up advice and that's what I got!

Actually, it's funny, I used to be sassier then heck, hence the name, it would be nice to find that again.

We do have health insurance, just not a very good plan, there is a deductible to pay up to, and we are currently paying up the last years.

I know you are right about seeing a psychiatrist about my anxiety issues.  I cannot live on ativan and a prayer.  I have been really embarassed throughout all of this.  I thought I knew him, knew myself, and the fact that he had to go out and do what he did, I feel like the laughingstock of the state.

I am afraid to work on me.  I have lost 45 pounds, that makes me feel better, but working more on me is very difficult because I am scared that if I focus on myself more than focusing on us, he will feel the need to go elsewhere again.  I can hear how stupid my words are sounding as I write them, yes I have turned into a puddle of mush, I know you are correct.  But I am still left with the fact that I feel scared to breathe, to move, in case I do the wrong thing and my world falls apart again.

Perhaps I am just thinking too much, and I should just stop thinking put my fears aside and do it.  My thinking that working on us will improve myself, is not right, you are right, working on myself could improve us.

Unless he is truly not the person I thought he was, and he never had any intention of quitting.  At that point if I every realize it, then at least I will have the backbone to leave and continue caring for me.

Thank you for your comments too about me being here.  I did think it was helping, but you bring up a good point that it makes me focus on him too much.  It's hard not too tho, especially when the trust is zippo.  I have been trying to do everything right to keep him....what IS the matter with me?!?!  Fear of being alone, yet at the same time, wishing I was alone.  Not sure if I want to be around people anymore, if people can do this to others.

I will make that call, after all, he spent quite a bit of change in the last couple of years on himself, he can now pick up my tab.

Thanks so much Love Goddess, you made me cry, but also gave me a lot of food for thought and helped me put a lot into perspective.

I have started and stopped several times trying to respond to this.  I have also debated using an alias, but I believe that alias' have such credibility issues, that I don't want this discounted because of that.

I am married with children.  I would be horrified and mortified if my wife found out about this because of what it would do to her, not what it would do to me.  I freely admit that this does not say very much for me as a person, and I carry the guilt with me constantly.  I know who I am, however, and I will not fall back on "I'm addicted" or "I can't help myself."  What a load of crap that is.  I am just too selfish to stop, and I have to live with myself.

Having said that, what I do is a break in trust with my wife, and that is what will be the worst part of getting caught. Am I living a lie right now? yes. Does it make it better, or less of a lie, just because she hasn't found out. No. I am not saying that, nor would I.  The missing element right now is her hurt, and maybe I'm kidding myself or just delaying the inevitable in my vain attempt to latch on to the fact that she has not yet found out.  I am, and I am holding onto that for dear life right now.

Why do I do it?  It doesn't really matter, and that is what applies to your situation.  I will say that, for me, it has nothing to do with my wife, just like what your husband did had absolutely nothing to do with you.  His Hobbying is his decision and his problem, and you will NEVER change that or him.

When you take on the mantle of trying to fix things and bring him back into the fold, you are taking on a problem that you are unable to solve, therefore setting yourself up for failure.  You did not motivate your husband to see escorts, and you cannot motivate him to stop.

The real issue here is that he has violated your trust and fortified your low self esteem.  Intentionally or not, the result of his actions is that you doubt yourself, your marriage, your ability to pick a partner, and your trust in another to the point of impacting your health.  Stop it.

Get off the cross, dear, someone needs the wood.  I heard this a long time ago, and, harsh as it sounds, it really means something.  It is easier to chalk this up to your husband not being satisfied with you in some way that you can fix, than to confront the real issues of your self doubt and self esteem.  

Do not let this son of a bitch have so much power over you that you blame yourself somehow for his own supreme selfishness.  As LG says, you need to help yourself before you tackle your relationship issues, but in no way are you ever going to solve your husband's problems for him.

I wish you luck, and I hope that you are able to find some peace.  Let your husband man up and address his own issues.  If he doesn't think you and the marriage are worth it, then he is proving that he is not worth your time and effort.



-- Modified on 1/25/2008 5:39:16 PM

Thank you Rayjjr, you show a lot of courage in responding to me.  I appreciate all of it.

Logically, I see what you are saying, and sometimes I don't wonder if the bulk of my anxiety attacks right now are because I am not happy with my decision to try and work things out.  I should have run.

But my heart wants to stay, wants to find what we once had, if it was even genuine to begin with.  Hopefully some therapy will help me sort it all out.  I know I need to get off the cross, I see now that it is doing me no good, and just digging the hole deeper.

I do defend him often, I'm not caring for myself.  I'm no good for my kids this way.  I will seek help, a step at a time.

I hope that you find peace too.  I will not judge, as you have not judged me, but I will say that I hope someday you find the peace within yourself too, so that you can get rid of your guilt.  I would not wish this pain on my worst enemy, and my heart goes out to your wife if she ever finds out.  I won't try and pretend to understand why you are doing what you do, I just hope one day you can stop, I can imagine living two lives like this can impact your health as well.

Thank you again,

Thank you for your post, wow it is interesting to hear the other side of the coin that we all want to believe doesn't exist.

Apart from the other advice which is excellent, now you need to flick the coin over for yourself. In other words, by experiencing the pleasures and excitement that your husband has had through new sexual experiences, you may be amazed at how empowering and reaffirming that can be.  I see a lot of women who wither away fretting about their husbands philanderings and neglecting themselves. If they focused on looking after themselves and seeking out their own pleasures it could turn their life around.  You may be amazed what you discover about yourself and your sexual capacities.

Your husbands refusal to have an open discussion about his sexual desires is a clear sign that things have gone too far for too long.  He doesn't want to open up, it is too difficult and shameful after all the deceit.

Yes it's hard, but in time you will be so thankful if you move on.

-- Modified on 1/26/2008 2:56:56 PM

PISS OFF!

You made me look at things differently, and to take care of me right now, and not try to fix him.

My first step is to make a boundary with myself, to not come back here, lol.  But I had to say thank you again before I go work on my stuff.

For those who pm'd me, I received notices that I got them, but I do not have access.  

Bye all,


-- Modified on 1/26/2008 10:53:43 PM

As LG said, go get some health care! I get meds that have pretty much completely knocked out my hard core (social) anxiety attacks- absolutely completely changing my life. Your physical health is also of utmost importance, and all this time you are investing into trying to figure out your husband should be spent getting yourself better. You cannot fight for anything when you are not well.

I've been an escort for five years. Most of my clients are married. I dated a hobbyist for four of those five years. Seeing men and being in such a relationship really sort of puts a "reality check" on life views. (It can also make one a little bit jaded, so take anything I say with a grain of salt.)

I hear A LOT of men say that they came into this world, the world of dating escorts, because their women stopped having sex with them. It's the number one reason I've heard, hands down. And most of those men say that they absolutely love their wives, it is only the sex part of their marriage that is not working. Most men "have" to have sex. It's a requirement. If they aren't getting it at home, then eventually they are going to go elsewhere. (It might even take years for them to make that step, but it will happen.) Having been in serious relationships myself, I can understand the flip side of things. Being in a marriage- especially when children are involved- really takes it's toll on a woman. Most men simply do not realize how much work and responsibility a woman takes on when there are children involved. Society has taught us that women are "supposed" to do the majority of the childcare. This, combined with all the other things involved in a serious relationship, affects a woman, and often her sex drive is one of the first things to go. I'm a very sexual person- I love the line of work I am in- but even I know about sex drives leaving while committed.

I was talking to a friend about dishonesty in relationships just last night. In the four-year relationship I was in, I found out at the end that he had been seeing escorts without telling me. I wanted an open relationship, be we lovers or just best friends (as I thought we were towards the end). I AM an escort, but I've always been completely honest about my working. He has been a hobbyist literally longer than I have been alive. He finally had someone to share his life with, but then he felt the need to keep this from me, to not tell me that he had been seeing girls- for who knows how long during our relationship?

Some men just get off on the thrill of cheating. To them, it is fun and exciting. Some men will never be honest simply for this reason. Some men do seek variety. If this is the case, I doubt they will ever be absolutely happy in a monogamous relationship. Wearing wigs and different clothes isn't going to help.

But you wanna know something? The important thing here isn't what your husband wants. You admit to yourself that your self-esteem is crap. You need to get out and discover what YOU want. If and when you do that, you are going to feel better about yourself. Wallowing around in your own self-pity and self-hatred isn't sexy. It's never going to be sexy. What IS sexy is knowing who you are, discovering new things about yourself, and living life. Depending on your husband for your happiness is enough to drive any man away. When you are confident in your own skin, THAT is sexy and men pick up on this. Your husband will pick up on this. Then, either your relationship will work- or if it doesn't, then you will know that whatever happens, you are strong enough to survive.

Good luck.

-- Modified on 1/29/2008 5:48:13 AM

Wow, what timing.  I came across this thread and read the whole thing to date and I certainly fall right into the middle of the conversation.  I can only tell you how it is for me, the male, married, and having the same discussion in my mind about why it may be that I am considering actually spending time with another woman.   I haven’t been with another woman in 14 years and when we were married, I enjoyed sex often as she did.  We had both been married before and met right at the end of our previous relationships.  Maybe there was a rebound thing going on there but it still was good.  Over the years we have sort of settled in a routine that is satisfying in itself but still lacks that fired up sparky feeling that makes you just want to gobble up your partner, you know, the real passionate touch feely just let me touch you somewhere kind of passion.  I know that quite a bit of it has to do with her weight gain which as you mentioned weighs on her mind and she does not feel very sexy so she won’t act it out any more.  She used to belly dance for me to Indian music and we would have intimate moments and more active sex.  Now she tries to hide her belly anytime I am in the room or in bed.  She talks often about her size and says “I need to do something but changes little.  She doesn’t dance anymore.  After 15 years it might not be as wild as the beginning but dancing with a trimmed down wife who is NOT ashamed of her body would be a good thing.  

I’m sure that like me your husband started by looking at women on the internet.  There are so many women and almost every single one is just an average girl.  Few are the supermodels and I don’t fancy them anyway.  The average woman can be so sexy and attractive with just a little effort, you know hair, nice feet and nails.  They become to me, beautiful.  You can fantasize and “do it” with them and go on about your life but it very impersonal.  You can be sure of this, that he did NOT want to hurt you and I know that even me writing this would crush her.  I can’t have that either so I am on the fence.

I thought before about maybe finding a girl at a massage parlor or something but that’s risky because of discovery and other bad stuff like stings or VD.  Street girls are out of the question for even more reasons so I think that for now, unless one of the women at church wants me I’ll just suck it up.  Swingers groups only want new women.  Then after a while I see that there is a pattern of sorts to the escort listings which pop up from time to time when looking at photos.  When I looked a bit further, I discovered “The Hobby”.

Who would have known.  Here is a whole world where the primary focus is to provide a safe environment for men and women who are thinking like me.  There are scams and one should be careful and not hasty when considering a step like this.  But there are rules, proper and improper behavior, a whole vocabulary, reviews, guides,  on and on.  When you finally get it, you see a safe place to go where no one will tell on you (it would ruin them in here) very little chance of disease, and your choice of whatever it is that you would like to enjoy.  It is a bit expensive for me, the basic working man, but within reach if once or twice a year.  It would be something to look forward to.  So it is there right in front of me whenever I decide one way or another.

So, here I am having not made the jump yet.  Just sort of waiting to see what happens at home.  Like me, I’m sure your husband had a girl picked out.  My choice is sensuallysara who looks to be the perfect experience for me for a GFE, and I’ve looked.  So if I do, she will be the one and your husband did the same.  I think women worry about the emotional connection that a man might have with another woman.  That depends on the man.  Some are lunkheads.  I for one will be in love for two hours and some after.  That’s just me.  If a woman is going to give me her body, even if it is what she does, I will cherish it and treat it carefully.  So there will be emotions but it is different from marriage love.  You can have both at home.  That’s the point.  Like LG said, take care of yourself, talk it out frankly with hubby and go for it.  You are probably average like most of us but remember what you can be inside and it will come outside and you will be beautiful regardless of whatever he does.

I guess I need to jump in here.  Yes, I'm obviously using an alias.  Not that my "handle" will mean anything to anyone.  I have never posted a message or a review.  

I'm a husband involved in the "hobby."  I've been married 20 years.  My marriage has been wonderful.  I love my wife.  She truly is my friend, lover, the love of my life.  I would never consider leaving her.  If she chose to leave me, I would be devastated.  Our sex life is good, if not great.  We probably make love 4-6 times per month.  She still has the body she had when we met 20+ years ago.  She's beautiful.  She gets hit on by guys 10-15 years younger.  

I've been doing this since before we got married.  There have been periods where I "abstained" for several years at a time, but I seem to inevitably go back to it.  She has even caught me once (a provider accidentally dialed her cell which is one digit off of mine), and has forgiven me.  I know she still has scars from the incident, but she never lets on.  Life has gone on as ususal.  After that incident, I went into counseling and support groups for sex addicts.  I managed to abstain for over 2 years, but beginning in the middle of last year, I got back into it.  

I have no excuses.  I live with tremendous guilt.  Yet, I can't seem to stop.  Since last fall, I've been at it twice a month -- all with the same provider.  No, I'm not in love with her, but obviously there's major attraction/infatuation.  I'm grounded enough in reality to know that there is no future there, but I go back again and again because I guess she meets an emotional/physical need that I crave.  All of this obviously adds to the guilt.  

I know I'm rambling.  I guess I'm writing this more for myself, than in response to you, Sassy. I am so sorry for your pain.  I don't know your circumstances, but I know in mine, it has nothing to do with my wife, but everything to do with me.  No excuses.  I am breaking my vows.  I am committing adultery.  There's no way to sugarcoat this.

When I was in counseling, I was told that much of this is my desire to relive my adolescence.  Only this time, I get to sleep with anyone I want.  Pick a pretty girl in the yearbook.  Dial the number, pay the freight, and I get what I want.  Maybe that's it.  I really don't know.

So, that's my story.  I vow to quit each time, to be a man, to love my wife enough to be faithful to her.  Again and again, I fail.  

I wish I could be as many others on this board -- seemingly at peace with what they do, enjoy the hobby with a good conscience.  I'm not there, and I guess I will never get there.  That's just me.  

IMHO psychiatrist is a misnomer for most people with health insurance. Most people can't ever see a psychiatrist because there insurance won't pay for it. You actually end up going to see a clinical social worker not a doctor. The one doctor I was ever able to see told me my insurance did not pay enough and I was again refered to a clincal social worker and even they bitched about the amount the insurance was willing to pay.