to lay the foundation for a solid relationship.
“Make an appointment or have a friend do so, but then discreetly observe the incall and verify for yourself if she is or is not. If she is not, no sense outing your activities.
I’m not sure what I find more jaw dropping—the ongoing mutual deception, denial and lack of authenticity for two years living together as described between the OP and his SO, or this advice.
Good gawd. Where would one even begin with this?
Neveramansman—One of the beautiful things about authentic intimacy and trust in one-on-one relationships is that you have free license to “be you”, without judgment or fear. From what you describe, neither of you trust the other. And neither of you are offering a safe space for the other. If either of you were, you would not be hiding the fact that you see providers on the side, and she would not be hiding the fact that she is one.
Talk about pink elephants in the living room.
You and your SO need to strip away several tons of bullshit between the two of you. One of you is going to have to take the first step, and the cards seem to be in your hands right now.
Good luck.
Five years ago I would have bet I would never buy or rent any pussy and I was definitely sure I would not in this lifetime, have a provider as a live in GF..
Soon after a heartbreaking break up, and a awakening in my life, I decided to conceal my heart, and try hobbying..
My first year hobbying ,twenty some discreet encounters and I was like a kid in a candy store and totally avoiding meeting a new GF..My second year hobbying I am down to my favorites from the year before and rarely a new one, and I started dating again..
I feel very fortunate I got to know a couple of my favorites off the clock, for dinner or drinks..
I say fortunate because I learned that most providers do it for the money and it is basically a job to them..I was stupid before or unenlightened to be polite, as I thought only Ho's could be providers.
Then I met a civilian lady 20 plus years younger than me, and we hit it off immediately, except no sex.. I drove for hours every chance she gave me to visit her, and drove hours back home, and nothing more than her company and kisses to keep me coming back ..I liked her so much I was still having fun even though we weren't being sexual.. The two or three times a month I would take her out, were nights I will always remember, especially since I would be preoccupied thinking, OK tonight is the night ...
For months I tried to taste her flowers to no avail..
Fast forward to now and and we have been living together for almost two years..We get along great and I never feel the desire to leave when she is home..I do hobby occasionally when she is out of town ..
When she moved in with me I slowed down on hobbying but I didn't stop because a voice in my head was telling me I was just a passing fancy for her..I don't mean fancy as far as GQ but more the opposite ..She is pretty and I am not..
Not the first time I had a pretty GF but this one is off the charts, but she is even prettier inside from my perspective....
At first she was very inhibited in bed at the best, and prudish at the worst, although the sex did feel intimate and very satisfying but totally different than most GFs ..
Since I am a very patient guy, not pushy, and I really like her company I let it ride and the ride did get better, but never more than a 7 compared to erotically talented providers or a civilian in touch with herself..I have expressed some desires that she has usually denied..other than a couple times when she drank too much, but getting her drunk for XX sex is not my idea of fun..
Starting early this year, quite a few times after we had made love, my GF would sometimes silently cry in my arms.When I asked her what was wrong, she said its a girl thing and she is happy crying, and then she proceeded to tell me she is so in love with me it sometimes makes her cry..That confused me so much I held her in my arms and said nothing..It happens maybe once or twice a month and I just hold and caress her and don't know what to say so I keep quiet...
About the same time I started feeling quite guilty about seeing providers and I cut back to almost none but still the occasional FAV..
A few months ago I was looking on EROS and I thought that provider sure looks like my GFs body, but the face was obscured..I became suspicious..I investigated covertly and I am now 100% sure beyond any doubt whatsoever my GF is a High dollar provider..looking back there were many signs that I did not see, and I thought I was surely not the least bit gullible type or someone who could ever be easily fooled..I was never suspicious just because she travels for her job three or four days a week, and she seems to make a lot of money..
Instead of being upset I felt cocky as in rooster cockiness, because i know she is sleeping with me for free and charging other guys much more than I have ever paid for a provider.. She is very generous when we go out and I Think I get some kind of weird satisfaction knowing she is spending some poor rich guy's money on us..
I found her reviews but I didn't read the details nor do I want to ,but what I don't understand, why would she be all high marks with hobbyists but yet she is still tame with me in bed.. I am talking very high marks ,,extraordinarily high ..
Don't get me wrong when we make love its a great feeling but I do enjoy a little dash of porn sometimes for mental stability.
What exactly is happy crying? I am not a prize or a stud muffin,and not rich, so its not tears of joy, as in winning a Gold Medal.
I have never told her I am in love with her because number 1...not sure if I am ,as my heart still hurts sometimes from the last one five years ago 2..I have never had a GF leave me before I told her I was in love with her..
LG if you think I need therapy I am looking for it here.. Thanks..
Sorry I felt the need to use a alias...I feel better knowing the peanut gallery won't know who they are mocking .
Dear Neveramansman,
It is not often that I find myself in a space of revulsion when reading posts on this advice board, but for some reason, I really feel existentially nauseated from your entire posting.
On the other hand, it's no more horrendous than two people with major trust issues who got together by some twist of fate and now are living out their mutual deception, she most likely out of fear and maybe shame, and you out of..what? The same maybe?
For the love of the Universe, be a MENSCH and come clean, for the both of you if she's not able to. You can begin by printing out this posting and showing it to her. Barring that, I'd suggest you both go to a sex-positive psychotherapist and hash out the truth, fears, tears and all. This is emotional mucky-muck that has its roots in all sorts of vulnerability issues, mainly abandonment, self-loathing and deeply rooted false selves.
Profound sigh and existential evacuation,
The Love Goddess
it is about the happy crying. i debated using an alias on this one for the sake of the peanut gallery. but it is probably best that the ladies i see read it and know about it so they don't get freaked out.
so your GF's happy crying or, for me, a happy misting over: i do it myself. don't say that my example fits your lady but it might.
for me it is _all_ about stress relief and catharsis. i'm not falling in love, getting weird, maudlin or possessive. it also happens when i experience or revisit a transcendantly gorgeous and powerful work of art. so much stress is relieved with the experience happiness and contentment of the experience that there is a light misting over. i think i would miss out on this if my emotions were more compartmentalized.
there are a few pieces of music, theater, and cinema powerful enough to do this for me and 2 or 3 provider friends. and while i love them all for this i'm not _in love_ with them. the stress release is measurable, my BP drops significantly for days afterwards.
the reason i think that it _might_ apply to your GF is that she has a very stressful job and life. perhaps only with you is she able to drop the pressures of performance (in ways that she might not be comfortable) and security issues for some simple and uncomplicated tenderness and release.
as for love? an eternal mystery. no one can solve that for you.
... I had to bite my lip, tongue and 2 fingers to stop myself from being a wise ass. I applaud your honesty (still biting).
BTW - there was a 1961 movie called "Cry for Happy."
-- Modified on 7/8/2009 4:18:58 AM
A bit of rare incite.
Wow, very well explained and very insightful! Although I don't 'happy cry' myself, most people that do don't understand the reasons why.
I totally agree, if she provides services for her clients that she is not performing in her own bed, then she is only 'performing' while at work. That is why she recieves the high remarks. I would not ask her to 'perform' for you, that is not the reson why she is with you. It's seems as though she is with you more for the emotional gratification. It seems as though this is the same reason why you are with her. The problem is, with you both holding back on your activities, there is no real realationship and you are just more or less wating your time with each other.
Here's my suggestion on this and you can take it or leave it. Come clean for crying out loud. She has more to be 'concerned' about. She is not only lieing about having sex, but about a large part of her life...one of her professions, part of her income...someone suggest you print out this forum thread and show it to her...do that! Or, find a nicer, gentler way of getting into the discussion, but by all means, get into it!
My hubby and I got together by cheating on our spouses with each other. We attended our first swingers event 2 months after meeting, and I became pregnant within two months of him moving in with me. Everything pointed to desaster with us. Well, 10yrs later we have a healthy realationship and are closer then two people ever should be. Just bc you start out wrong, doesn't make it wrong. Our trick is that we are very open and honest with each other, we share everything, we fully support each other, we enjoy ourselves and in return we enjoy each other.
We are going to need to see her TER profile so we can give you the guidance you request and deserve.
Thanks
This is a deeply difficult psychosexual issue and not some trivial visual matter.
Not everyone "thinks" like you,
The Love Goddess
Eh, perhaps not.
But I'll bet I'm not the only one.
He should meet her as a regular client 
have been regarding this matter. This is an issue of deep emotional consequences and people are making light or a joke out of it. With the exception of TiffanyCum's commentary, the discussion has derailed into some sort of prurience. I would suggest that unless there is something helpful to say, please avoid posting silly comments.
Thank you,
The Love Goddess
my side banter was directed at the observers and not at the OP or his difficulty.
i thought that you captured the facts of the situation exceptionally well. i think that my serious response pointed at a possible positive emotional need for the lady in the case.
certainly conceptually there is a lot going on here that requires some therapeutic introspection as you suggested. but to be frank while there there are problems with mutual deception in the OP's post they are understandable when viewed compassionately. they need to be worked through and all as you sugggest, but i don't think that the situation is utterly negative.
he is getting a more intimate look at her sexuality than her performance mode and may be not happy that it isn't more off the hook. she is getting some tenderness that she can't get out of work plus, i think some valuable stress relief.
it isn't totally negative. extremely difficult but for now it works, if certainly suboptimally.
you investigate further. Make an appointment or have a friend do so, but then discreetly observe the incall and verify for yourself if she is or is not. If she is not, no sense outing your activities. If she is, then you have decisions - you could break it off entirely, continue as is, or gradually break/broach the subject.
If the later, I would not "out" yourself immediately, rather break the ice discretely, perhaps go see or rent the movie "the Girlfirend Experience" - then while watching it "confess" that you've seen providers (before you started seeing her), and talk about how you learned they were regular people, many nice, and comment that you would have no problem daring or being in a relationship with one. This may spur further conversation, if not on that occassion, then at a future time - she may need time to process your statements and think things thru herself once she knows you are open to a relationship
That lets her know your feelings and gives her comfort without putting her on the spot. Then just wait and leave the next move up to her - I would not rush her or suprise her with your knowledge of her - let it come from her if she wnats it to. If she never says anything, after a month or so, your back to options 1 or 2.
to lay the foundation for a solid relationship.
“Make an appointment or have a friend do so, but then discreetly observe the incall and verify for yourself if she is or is not. If she is not, no sense outing your activities.
I’m not sure what I find more jaw dropping—the ongoing mutual deception, denial and lack of authenticity for two years living together as described between the OP and his SO, or this advice.
Good gawd. Where would one even begin with this?
Neveramansman—One of the beautiful things about authentic intimacy and trust in one-on-one relationships is that you have free license to “be you”, without judgment or fear. From what you describe, neither of you trust the other. And neither of you are offering a safe space for the other. If either of you were, you would not be hiding the fact that you see providers on the side, and she would not be hiding the fact that she is one.
Talk about pink elephants in the living room.
You and your SO need to strip away several tons of bullshit between the two of you. One of you is going to have to take the first step, and the cards seem to be in your hands right now.
Good luck.
while the "make an appointment" part of WJC's suggestion seems snaeaky and manipulative and unnecessary the second part of the suggestion seems more tactful and careful. but it may need repackaging.
since there are "pink elephants" in the living room the mmore i think about it the more i think that the "print the post and discuss" may be too crudely confrontational to do anything more than create an explosion. that adds yet another bomb to an explosive situation. i don't see how confessing to making an anonymous post on a discussion board can do anything other than make a delicate situation worse.
it seems to me possible to nudge things to more honesty without necessarily being brutal. the OP certainly needs to do something to make this relationship more reality based and honest, the onus is on him.
the "rent a movie" to frame the discussion while not perfect, at least gives the OP a chance to frame the mood of the discussion in a way that accepts her work.
(i'd probably pick a better movie though. a provider friend of mine reminds me that "Breakfast at Tiffany's" as a more classic/classy approach.)
it is complicated because there are two outings that need to happen. printing the post does both at onece and maximizes the chance of an explosion. so i offer twoplans, Plan A and Plan B.
Plan A:
if it were me i would simply take her aside for a serious discussion where i would express the hope that she would "be understanding and forgiving" because i "value the relationship" but "need to talk about two important issues" to "keep the relationship healthy and real". i would then:
1) out myself as a hobbyist, lead with the confession, not with the knowledge that she is a provider. be prepared to be extremely patient and humble through any emotional upheaval that follows the confession.
2) allow a pause for her to make her own confession and if none is forthcoming very quickly (seconds or minutes not hours) tell her at that point that he knows of her work.
Plan B:
can only be done with a set up where you can honestly say that you love and accept her completely. _really_. then:
1) tell her of finding the eros ad
2) tell her you've been doing P4P but less since her
3) ask to have a discussion about what it all means and where to go from here.
i agree that the OP needs to nudge this relationship into more honesty. a sledge hammer approach might create unnecessary suffering.
Call me a cynical son of a bitch
-- Modified on 7/11/2009 4:12:09 PM
If you persist in posting these types of comments to this thread, despite my warning to all and sundry, I will moderate you. Please turn your attention to the many other boards of TER and do not post to this thread.
Thank you,
The Love Goddess
This is a very intriguing post, and the replies are also fascinating.
I really don't know what you "should" do. I find it surprising, however, that many appear disturbed by the "pink elephants". I am really confused. Is it because of the special situation the OP finds himself in, ie that his GF may be a provider, that he needs to "come clean"? Or should all hobbyists "come clean" with their GFs and wives?
Aren't some things better left in the closet, under the rug, or whereever you want to stash them?
Maybe our gut is telling us that in this situation everything can work out between these two individuals if Pandora's box is opened because . . .?
Like I said, with one eyebrow Spock-like raised, fascinating.
that can only arise in the P4P world.
in P4P a lot of the clients need to deceive because they have SOs that they feel they need to hide from. providers have security needs such that they need to deceive also (performance name versus real name is only one example.) so deception is built into the P4P world.
yet these two people seem to have stumbled into a relationship that is working for them both at some level: they've been living to gether for 2 years. so relationship health requies a certain degree of honesty.
to be sure my gut is projecting its own "becauses" as well. this is since i have many stories in my past in which getting to clarity and honesty about the relationship and its future potential wasn't handled with sufficient tact or in time to preserve it. my analytical head would get into a fight with my warmer and kinder gut instinct. _that_ contradiction is too much to bear for too long.
now almost all the time this worked out OK even so. for instance i am very happy that my fabulous 2nd ex has done well with her next and current. but in one case i think i shall be ever haunted by "might have been" possibilities that i wish i had handled with even more tact and patience.
or does this whole story read like a finely crafted fabrication?
Kind of like the "Penthouse Forum" stories that were titillating but never rooted in truth.
The posters username: "Neveramansman".
Really?
well, you'll never know will you?
the thing is that unlike "Penthouse Forum" which had a wider audience this particular subculture has several selection effects going for it that increase the likelihood of it being true.
there is the fact that P4P sex is illegal, the abundance of payoffs (in terms of security, etc.) for deception, etc. all act in concert to increase the likelihood that the story and its elements would be true.
the story is not so much more "unlikely" than stories that i know are factual, since i've lived them. i find that sometimes when i post a reminiscence i tend to pale the story out a bit in order to avoid posts such as yours.
not to be argumentative, but what conclusions could you draw from an alias? i have used an alias on occasion and it is amazing how folks will try to milk the choice of a particular alias for information that isn't there.
then, OTOH, remember the TER disclaimer about how the content here should all be regarded as works of erotic fiction.
the only question about all this that can be answered is that some folks are willing to take the OP's story at face value and run with it others cannot and respond with simple disbelief or cynical derision. there is a natural tendency for each responder to take their own style as a model and be skeptical of other responses.
so the question is "why is that?". what is it about each of us that conditions our style of response?
for myself i have a rich inner life and an outer life that has been full of colorful incidents. so the story doesn't seem such a stretch. OTOH i have many friends who have played life much more safely who would find it most strange.
both of you seem to have more heart than brains...I problem that I share. It's hard though carrying the pain of someone else...especially, when YOU KNOW they don't want you to carry it.
IMHO Building trust for the broken...Christ like
...Forgive then FORGET, let shit go. This means her provider status.
...Do what you say will. Even when you say you will do the small things, do it. Be very clear when you are not going to do something.
...Figure out now how much time you are going to give her in her current state (vulnerable and hurt). Is it forever? Is it based on a co-dependency/tit-for-tat...as long as you get yours? Or is it a question you are unwilling to ask? Make sure she knows the answer.
I will say at this point, for all of my fucked up fantasies about hooking up emotionally with a stripper or provider, you seem to be there. If it is truly worth it, then don't screw up! For the love of God, hold on to her, love her, and keep her safe.
Texcat had the happy answer on the happy crying and it sounds like it could be a good thing ..
As far as telling her you realize she is a provider, remember chances are she was a provider before she met you.. If she wanted you to know she would have already told you..
I agree with the poster who said you are her safe zone and I will add, if all is well why change trains? As long as her being a provider doesn't bother you, why bring it up??
If you tell her you hobby she just might go ballistic and declare you are like "all the other guys"...No sense hurting her feelings IMO, and also taking a big chance on her leaving..
Don't ever throw it in her face that she is a provider if you get caught hobbying or she probably won't even speak to you after the break up.. If you happen to break up without it in the open don't say anything about her "JOB"and years on down the road there might still be possibilities on you never know what might happen..
Maybe if you quit hobbying and try to give her a bit more of your heart things "might" get better..
If you decide you want to ask her to marry you, then my two cents worth changes ..Until then,both of you go well with great days and happy nights..
In my personal opinion I would say that she is crying because she knows she has secrets and they are eatting her up inside. You obvioiusly feel for her or you wouldnt feel bad about your secrets. From my earlier experiences, as a new provider, I also would rock a clients world but would lack luster in my personal relations. That doesnt happen now but my point is that may be her issue as well. She puts on a show for her clients, therefore not knowing how to truly express herself in a personal standing with you in the bedroom. Again, just my opinion.