in my opinion, sexual orientation and disdain for men are not causally related or even formally associated.

Note how I went in there and corrected the spelling of the last name, LOL,
The Love Goddess



-- Modified on 4/17/2011 9:47:44 PM

In a thread below, a hobbyist asked why there are so many providers who disdain men.  The Love Goddess, as well as several providers and white knights, responded that only a few providers actually disdain men.  However, Dr. Christine Milrod found in her sample of 100 internet based independent sexual service providers only 45 percent of those providers identified themselves as heterosexuals.  Similarly,  Dr. Alexa Albert found in her study of providers in a legal Nevada provider house, that there was a "fundamental disrespect that [. . .] almost all pros******* had for their customers."  The real issue appears to be why do so many hobbyists patronize providers who disdain them.

REFERENCES
   Milrod, Christine.  “Sexual Attitudes and Experiences of 100 Internet--Based Independent Sexual Service Providers.”
http://sexandlifecoaching.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Column_Paper_on_sexual_attitudes.pdf



-- Modified on 3/5/2011 10:13:22 PM

"That's where the money.." (women).."is." (are)

-- Modified on 3/6/2011 6:27:06 AM

What really puzzles me is why any man would care what a woman that he pays for sex thinks of him or any of her customers.  I repeat with girls that I have a good time with and don't repeat with girls who are less than fun to be around.  I don't equate my simple selection process to any sort of psychological profiling of escorts and, IMHO, any man who does is missing the point of paying for sex instead of cultivating a non sexual relationship with a woman simply so that you can get sex "for free".

Honestly, women fake orgasms in real life all the time. A woman will put on an academy award performance just to get her fat husband to roll off of her so she can get some sleep. Lots of folks are stuck in loveless marriages where BOTH parties are going through the motions and faking things.  I first turned to the hobby as means of variety but eventually used it as a means of temporary escape from a bad marriage.  When the marriage finally went away I continued to hobby because it's just so much fun!  Do my regulars hate me? I honestly don't believe that they do.  If I'm liking a girl enough to see her repeatedly it's because we are having fun for the full two or three hours that we spend together, not just while having sex but while chatting, having a meal together or whatever.  If my ATF or any of my other regs secretly disdain me and cringe when they get my texts or emails I guess that's a chance I am more than willing to take.  

Obviously there are women who escort that don't like doing it very much. I've seen a few, but only once. There are also plenty of civvie women with anger issues towards men and PLENTY of men with anger issues towards women as well.  I don't think that the sex industry really has anything to do with it.

Actually, the P4P industry may very well attract more MEN with anger issues than it does women...



-- Modified on 3/6/2011 12:28:04 PM

A few providers have told me this. For example many hold back on DFKissing, others go to great lengths  avoiding an orgasm etc. This jadedness or hardness develops over time. I have one ATF who is getting this way and we had a "talk"  recently, she told me she hated most of her clients. I was different according to her....yea right! She has excellent TER reviews but she sure has a lot of us fooled.

Well, I'm impressed! Not only whip smart and educated, you are also very attractive.

or even for an agency. I've read Alexa Albert's book as well. Really, I believe that it comes down to this: when you work under bad conditions, you resent your job and clients, when you work under better conditions, you enjoy them. So, see women who work under good conditions, who have requirements, and are selective, and you are more likely to be appreciated

The two articles focus on women from completely different areas of the trade: LG's article focuses on TER-reviewed independents, who are also members of the TER Provider-Only Board. Dr. Alexa Albert's book focuses on a Nevada brothel. Two completely different experiences, two completely different viewpoints. The escorts in Albert's book were much more negative about their clients than the independents in LG's article, but their experiences were also much worse than any of mine (and by a tenuous extension, the average independent escort's). So, very few of the women Albert interviewed would admit to being aroused by their clients...they considered it beneath them...yet, in LG's article, "49% percent found their sexual satisfaction to be 'very much above average.'”

When I first started, I was extremely frustrated with escorting. My clients and their demands were sometimes infuriating, and I thought that this business might not be for me. Luckily, I read enough, and had enough GREAT experiences, to know that there was something better out there, than dealing with a stream of rough clients, no-shows, window-shoppers,  hagglers, fraudulent reviewers, drunks, oxen-team-drivers, boundary-pushers, jerks and general pains-in-the-butts. I went independent, tweaked my marketing, and loved my job more than I ever hoped to So I believe that a girl's attitude, largely depends on who she sees...if she sees jerks, she'll hate her job, if she sees great guys, she'll love it.

At one point, I might have disdained "jerks"...but never MEN. The caveat would be, that plenty of clients out there, never dream that they are being anything other than a gentleman, but yet manage to get under a girl's skin.

-- Modified on 3/6/2011 1:14:29 PM

regarding no DFK's, some providers reserve that for their SO's, or do so for health reasons. And, how would you know that they "go to great lengths avoiding an orgasm etc." Most of the discussion, regarding orgasms, I read here at TER, has to do with whether or not providers are faking them.

Has exposed the vast conspiracy, fronted by LG, providers and white knights here to cover up the essentially adversarial relationship that is at the core of this hobby! Stop the presses, there are people in jobs across America who are less than fond of their customers, and some of those people are prostitutes.

Which proves what?

As far as I can tell, it proves that some guys have a major interest in one or all of the following being true:

- Providers are bitterly unhappy people
- Most providers dislike all clients (really tempting to add "It is not just me they dislike" here, but I am going to refrain) and men in general.
- Providers are mostly gay.

These guys should get together with the end demand folks as it seems they share a common belief structure.

Accusations and beliefs like this often reveal more about the accuser than the accused - general truth, not sure if it applies here, nor am I interested in shining a light in that crawl space. I do suggest that if you think most or all providers hate guys and dislike sex with guys, you might want to reconsider your approach to the hobby, or maybe just quit.

If that makes me a white knight, I plead guilty. I have fun, too and I even believe some of my lady friends have had fun at times. Yes, I know many fake it, just like my wife has, but so long as they do it with enough conviction to fool me, I am happy as a clam.

Zig

White knights have the following characteristics:  (1) an IQ of 50 or less, (2) lots of dollars, and (3) no sense.  Although you may have the second characteristic, your post suggests that you do not have the first and third characteristics.  Indeed, you are well aware of the false advertising and false behavior of most providers and elect to proceed nonetheless.  Happy hobbying!

According to the the survey, 45% identified themselves as heterosexual. As one of the 100 ladies who participated, I identified myself as bisexual. As I recall (I can't open the pdf file to refresh my memory), a fair number of other participants also identified themselves as bisexual. Only a small number identified themselves as lesbian.

I find it curious that you translate lesbianism to mean "disdain" for men. Although some assume homosexuality in men is attributed to a fear or disdain for women, most do not make that assumption. Do you disdain men, since you are not sexually attracted to them, or desire them as partners? I would guess the answer is no. While I enjoy the feel and look of a woman, my romantic partners have always been male. I've never had a desire to have a relationship with a woman. I assure you however, that in no way means I disdain the fairer sex. Why then, do you assume that a woman who is attracted to other women disdains men?

There is no doubt that some providers are in fact jaded or cynical about their occupation. Perhaps even loathe them. I reject the idea that these women represent the majority of providers, and neither of the studies you've presented support the theory that 'man haters' make up the majority of providers.

The real issue to me is why is lesbianism so misunderstood and even feared by so many men?

and often the feeling is mutual.

I think there is more disdain from men who view lesbians as a waste of flesh as they have no chance with them then vice versa.  Of course anyone putting out those vibes is going to be less than welcomed around a person.

On the other hand, I've always felt close to lesbians and that attitude has given me a chance to become sexually active with several, and I am very happy to have had the opportunity to do so.

After reviewing my dictionary, I concede that "disdain" is too strong a term to describe the attitude of lesbian providers towards their customers.  Dislike or indifferent towards might be more accurate.  I further concede that a lesbian provider could provide her customer a satisfactory session.  After all, most heterosexual providers often dislike or are indifferent towards their customers and these ladies are able to fake it.  I still consider that a prudent hobbyist (pardon the oxymoron) should seek the services of a heterosexual provider as opposed to a non-heterosexual provider, when possible.

My experience to date with the ladies I have met has been 100% positive. I have found them without exception to be as advertised, and to be great people as well. These women are smart, uninhibited, clean, safe and sane. I wish I could say the same for the typical civvie gal.

but they can be great fun for FMF threesomes.

I'm really in it just for the sex.. I must admit I cum at least once with each guy. I actually make my living off of my modeling career and do this almost purely for the sex!

that most providers do not like men.

Which makes one wonder why you would be willingly pay for the services of someone whom you ‘know’ has used false advertising, is dishonest in her behavior, indifferent to you, dislikes you, is ‘faking it’, and/or flat out  holds you in contempt?

Regardless: I think you’re reading ‘non-heterosexual’ to mean lesbian. And what you really mean is Bi-sexual. I need to speak in some generalities here as there are as many variations as there are people. But, most providers tend to be heterosexual or bi-sexual. There are, of course, providers who identify as lesbian. And true, many lesbians do not like “sex” with men. In which case, unlikely she is choosing sex work with men as a career. OTOH, many lesbians have no particular objection to sex with men; they simply prefer women.  

That said, sexual orientation is completely irrelevant when it comes to whether anyone “likes/dislikes” anyone of the opposite sex. And sexual orientation is also irrelevant when it comes to whether one behaves as a professional in their professional life.  

Clearly sex work is a very personal business. But, providers routinely compartmentalize their personal/professional lives; as we all do.  I doubt it’s any secret that providers are not itching to drag their clients home to fuck them for free. But that does not mean a provider is not the consummate professional with that client.

And if a provider is not acting professionally, her sexual orientation is not the determining factor.

As far as the whole "lesbians are man-haters” thing? Isn’t this an outdated notion yet? ….lol….

I plead guilty to the charge of being convinced “that most [but not all] providers do not like men”.  There is overwhelming evidence to justify my belief – I concede that there is other evidence to support your belief that most providers do like men.  Can we at least agree that there are providers that do not like men and the prudent hobbyist should find those providers who do like men?

     I concede that the term “non-heterosexual” includes a broad range of sexual orientations (ranging from exclusively lesbian to predominately heterosexual).  I further concede that bisexual ladies and even lesbians do not necessarily dislike men and can be good providers.  However, I reject your unsupported presumption that “sexual orientation is COMPLETELY irrelevant when it comes to whether anyone 'likes/dislikes' anyone of the opposite sex.”  It is ironic that so few women (45% according to the Love Goddess’s survey) in this hobby are heterosexual compared to the civilian female population. Hobbyists appear to prefer the faked, but impressive, performance of providers as opposed to the real, but unpolished, performance of amateurs.    

that you think proves [most] providers do not like men. But, you’re clearly stuck on this idea that providers either “like” or “dislike” (recently downgraded from ‘disdain’) men based on their sexual orientation. But again, sexual orientation is irrelevant as far as whether a person “likes/dislikes” anyone (opposite sex, or otherwise).

I identify as lesbian. This is not an all-encompassing description of who I am. This is simply my sexual orientation. And, based on this factoid alone, without knowing anything else about me, there is very little you can ascertain about who I am as a person.  My sexual orientation will not tell you how competent I am at my job. It will not tell you my political/religious/ethical leanings, or whether I like children, or dogs, or cats, or Chinese food.  It does not even predict, with any certainty, whether or not I enjoy sex with men.  

By itself, the only thing this tells you tell you is that I ‘prefer’ sex with women. It certainly does NOT tell you whether I “like or dislike men”. Because the answer to this question (like those above) is completely unconnected to my sexual orientation.  

I guess this is the part of the program where I declare: “some of my best friends are men!”…lol….

Whether provider has some reason to dislike men---as in she genuinely does not like half of the human population as a whole, as well as the vast majority (if not all) of her own client base? Well….her sexual orientation is not the deciding factor. Really---Unless a provider candidly tells you she doesn’t “like” men, the only thing you have to go on is what she advertises, her reviews, and her professional behavior and reputation; which you will either find acceptable, or you won’t.

Should prudent hobbyist find those providers who “do like men”? Absolutely! And, you may be in luck because it’s hard to swing a cat around here without hitting one

lttp here but I just have to say that is a superb piece of writing, Carly. very pleased to be a newbie here with intelligent discourse like this around my most needed-to-discuss subjects. & I may agree, coz my experience out of a Vegas agency, though many years ago was with a young woman who was clearly not happy & actually gave me, a complete stranger to her from out of town, her phone # & wanted me to party & go dancing with her and her girlfriends after hours

point being I didn't get off coz it felt like, she wasn't into it & she wasn't about to try to fake it either. & I guess she saw the problem so was nice enough to offer friendship which was totally cool. but seeing her unhappy with the gig confirmed traditional disdain for the industry & basically turned me off of hobby until now. as in, that is exactly what kept me away: the idea, and the previous bad experience with a young woman already jaded and disdaining men fueling that worry, that all the girls will be just like she was and I'll feel that, being the sensitive guy I am, & it will ruin it before it starts. for me. obviously I need to have more hobby experiences before making rash assumptions about all providers, but I'm just saying that was my experience and it left me for a long while feeling negatively toward your biz (don't even get me started on how screwy is the music biz)
but which I see now is quite a different, more interestingly diverse picture of simply different people experimenting with sex and business.

those two things being traditionally hazardous for everyone involved, even the rich in terms of the hyper-morality in the past and their reputations. but today's somewhat more openminded society, the integration of casual geisha culture here in the west which adds more respect to the industry, and finally all these intelligent, hip & sexually openminded kids (thanks to all the work we boomers did to clear the way for more sexual freedom and mental-emo health and better parenting than our parents ever gave us: more communication and expression) together with the great new tool of the web creating this place here, where the sensitive of us in the west who have suffered so long at the hands of rough men and laws may finally express ourselves at least somewhat openly, openly enough to get our needs met it appears.

kudos to all of you for making this happen. & you actually have Meet & Greets too. a true community. doesn't get much closer than the feeling at a rock concert where the music is typically just innocent young people who've been suppressed in some way by (usually religious) elders who control their community too strictly consequently driving the kids away and to those rock shows. musicians/groupies is the story of my past so I know a little about it. everybody sings together now. & your cause is a beautiful one indeed. I am very impressed and pleased with all of u

for example a woman recently remarked to me about how it didn't sound bad at all to be working independently and having sex twice a day with plenty of free time and good income. you'd have sex twice a day anyway. it would be the best part of the day. why not get paid for it -IF- the work environment is friendly and organized enough to create this social cushion, the legitimacy, that all capitalistic enterprises need in order to create a functional community. in this case, the priority for the working woman being that she has a good enough supply-demand ratio to be selective about clients, giving her power & control over her position in life, more than any blue collar employee ever expects to receive btw, which is of course why so many people these days choose to start independent small businesses

then I read a dude who says no guy should care what any provider thinks about him & remember that's  a kind of guy personality that might work anyway depending on her taste n mood, as in 'don't bother me, casually apathetic, very attractive in men actually, a type that is used in modeling for example & is typically attractive type of rock musicians. but just as attractive, ironically, is its opposite: the Jack Lemmon with Shirley MacLaine in 'The Apartment' film- type of man who's like a daddy always concerned and giving giving giving... ahem.. maybe a bit of my baggage there. I guess the point I'm making is that both these personalities, though potentially attractive, are also potential drags, depending. on her. so once again, hook up right & everybody gets happier. & isn't that what this place is all about. you can't organize something this vitally important to the typical human community without free communication & expression. long live the web.

please forgive any pretension on my part for assuming what would be attractive to women but these things I mention are common knowledge

in the end for me, it's gotta be her digging it. don't care if it's a performance. I've been a performing artist all my life so I can relate. just go for it honey.

Posted By: CarlyLady

or even for an agency. I've read Alexa Albert's book as well. Really, I believe that it comes down to this: when you work under bad conditions, you resent your job and clients, when you work under better conditions, you enjoy them. So, see women who work under good conditions, who have requirements, and are selective, and you are more likely to be appreciated

The two articles focus on women from completely different areas of the trade: LG's article focuses on TER-reviewed independents, who are also members of the TER Provider-Only Board. Dr. Alexa Albert's book focuses on a Nevada brothel. Two completely different experiences, two completely different viewpoints. The escorts in Albert's book were much more negative about their clients than the independents in LG's article, but their experiences were also much worse than any of mine (and by a tenuous extension, the average independent escort's). So, very few of the women Albert interviewed would admit to being aroused by their clients...they considered it beneath them...yet, in LG's article, "49% percent found their sexual satisfaction to be 'very much above average.'”

When I first started, I was extremely frustrated with escorting. My clients and their demands were sometimes infuriating, and I thought that this business might not be for me. Luckily, I read enough, and had enough GREAT experiences, to know that there was something better out there, than dealing with a stream of rough clients, no-shows, window-shoppers,  hagglers, fraudulent reviewers, drunks, oxen-team-drivers, boundary-pushers, jerks and general pains-in-the-butts. I went independent, tweaked my marketing, and loved my job more than I ever hoped to So I believe that a girl's attitude, largely depends on who she sees...if she sees jerks, she'll hate her job, if she sees great guys, she'll love it.

At one point, I might have disdained "jerks"...but never MEN. The caveat would be, that plenty of clients out there, never dream that they are being anything other than a gentleman, but yet manage to get under a girl's skin.

-- Modified on 3/6/2011 1:14:29 PM