One of the best things about Hobbying with the ladies on TER is that we can check them out via their reviews and websites and they can check us out via screening our White Lists, posts, and reviews. No such safeguards exist in the world of Sugar Dating.  I've been playing in the Sugar world lately and so far had excellent results.  But I find I'm worried and I wonder if my spidey sense is doing me a solid or if it's gone haywire.  I've been PMing a lovely SB newbie on SA.  My in initial discreet offer of friendship was met with "what would I get in exchange for your company ". Her next message said "I'd expect to get paid up front because I've had men that don't end up holding their end of the deal. I am open to doing many things if the money is right".  I replied, perhaps foolishly, with a specific dollar amount I'd be comfortable with. She then said "that sounds good but you seem pretty trust worthy so I'd be open to seeing you where ever you live". Guys I've never been the victim of an LE sting, but the prospect really frightens me and this has all the earmarks of an attempt to get me into a compromising situation.  I'm tempted to pass on this honey.  I have had other SBs who were eager to go for it right away yet did not cause my internal alarms to go off like this one does.  What do you think?  Am I being smart to suspect foul play or am I being paranoid?  Is there a good way I can get her to prove her bona fide intentions?  Maybe ask her to send nude photos?  How far will LE go to entrap somebody?

On the 1 to 10 scale of digression, she's about a 2.  She may be on the level, but I wouldn't want to be the one that finds out.

I haven't been with SBs, but for the ones that have, is such frankness the norm?  Certainly not in the P4P hobby.

Fish I value your opinion! You're right, any Escort provider who said those things would never get my business, and if I expressed such statements about money I'd expect any escort to have nothing more to do with me!  It's taboo, and for good reason, and there are plenty of other ways to find out what the rates are and be prepared with a proper envelope. But in Sugar Dating there's no such accepted protocols, so a certain level of frankness is necessary.  I try to be discreet and apply what I've learned from Hobbying. I usually tell the girl that my previous SBs have been happy with a gift per visit of $xxx and wait for their reaction.  By saying it that way I haven't actually offered to pay them for sex. I've offered a gift for their companionship. Anything else that may or may not happen, blah blah blah... If their expectation$$ are higher they will tell me.  But the girl I'm writing about now seems to have crossed several lines.

to indiscretion.

In the pre-internet days, it was not all that uncommon.  Many gals left rates out of their ads, not because they were being discreet, but because they felt they could do better by getting the guy into the room and then working them over.  It was a challenge of sorts, but sometimes that would add a saucy flavor to the proceedings as the gal would reveal her a la carte menu.

This is still the SOP at most AMPS

The rules are clear cut on TER and in most of the P4P world.

The rules and the lines are MUCH blurrier on SA and yes it's quite common for even the "amateur hookers" on SA to ask you to "make an offer" It happens to me all the time. Just a couple of days ago I had this happen with an SB brand new to SA. She wanted all the guys to throw her an offer and she planned on taking the best one. I of course refused to get into a bidding war for this little 19 year old hottie and simply told her so.

For the record and a possible way for others to handle this type of situation this is exactly what I said to her and the results.

SB: "I have many gentlemen inquiring, I want to accept the best offer"

Me:  "As lovely as you are, I have no intention in entering into a bidding war for your affections. Here's my suggestion, get all the offers from the other guys and then tell me what your best offer is and I will simply tell you yes or no"

SB: Ok

SB five minutes later. "How about $350 for all night, but I insist you wear a condom"

Me: "Done and done, where would you like to meet for dinner?

END OF MESSAGE

Gambler, your expertise in the sugar world is something I appreciate.  Have you ever encountered an LE sting there?  That's what I'm afraid of.  The haggling over price does not bother me one bit and I've done my fair share. Sometimes it works well, sometimes not.  The method you described is a good one. But I wonder if the girl I'm quoting in my OP is just young and inexperienced or is actually an LE sting.

Many if not most of the girls on SA are young and inexperienced, it's part of the allure for many of us. I haven't been at this long, but I have already been the "first" for at least a couple of these young ladies. One of them was 27, had been stuck in a sexless marriage for 9 years and was so starved sexually she literally shuddered at the slightest touch.  

Two things she said to me after our first date that really stuck with me. The first was "Well I guess I am officially a hooker now" and then she said she really felt guilty even taking my money as she "needed it even more than I did" I've seen her many times since, a lot of those times I don't give her a penny, she never seems to care.

but back to "haggling" many of the girls really have no idea how to ask for an "allowance" I would say well over two thirds of my dates, I go into them with a clear idea how much (if anything) she is going to want.  

I know most guys look at the first date as kind of a M&G with no sex expected. I am a bit different as I look at ANY date as an opportunity for sex and that includes hookers, Sugar babies and civvies alike. My personal batting average is well over .500 for getting laid on the first date with an SB.

"Still not a Sugar Daddy" lol

but the next time Priapussy wants to sue me for "defamation" you are still my "go to" fake lawyer. lol

Your "offer of friendship" is quite vague.  When I contact an SB,  I state up front what I pay for a dinner date, and the amount of my allowance to my last SB.  So that avoids a lot of these issues you're running into.  

  I never pay "money up front'.  I never 'bid' on a date.  And any SB who talks about a rate for sex before even meeting you is a hooker.   That should be obvious to everyone.   --z

 Fair enough.  But I hope this board doesn't become an exclusive ghetto like the ridiculous K-girl board.   I think Fisher will take the sugar bowl plunge soon.  I'm sure he's thinking about it.  --z

In a way, she still is.

Still and all, some of my relationships do have elements of SD/SB about them.  You can sort of expect that when you have known some of the gals over 25 years.

 Listen up, Fisher.  Sugar Mama =  Female Sugar Daddy.   Typically a 'sugar mama'  is a lesbian who has an arrangement with a much younger sb.  So unless Bev was *paying* you, then she wasn't your 'sugar mama'.   She was just a rather mature SB, lol.  But we get your point.   --z

END OF MESSAGE

Partly I suppose because I am not married combined with the fact that I LIKE very blurry lines, I NEVER state upfront what I am willing to pay for a date, dinner or otherwise, and I have been rewarded with many completely free dates that have even led to sex by women who would have run away as fast as their cute little legs would take them if I had even hinted about treating them like a "prostitute"  

I will agree I have never paid "money up front" or "bid" on a date, nor will I ever do so. That's just dumb IMHO> and yes an SB who talks about a "rate for sex" is most definitely a hooker, where we seem to disagree on that front is that I LIKE hookers, even if they call themselves an SB.

One last thing, one of the reasons I don't make an "offer" of a specific amount of allowance is that many new SBs have a very different idea about money than others and I don't want to "bid against myself" The night before last I had an overnight date with a new SB, we did have a short conversation about allowance before hand and I simply asked her what she would expect me to leave her after "having breakfast in the morning together" her reply was "somewhere between $250-300" I immediately seized the opportunity to be "generous" and told her I didn't want to look "cheap" so let's just say $300. A hooker that looked half as good as her could have easily gotten $3,000 and I would most likely have offered her $500 if I had been the one to make the offer. Sometimes, like in sales "he (she) who speaks first, loses"

 There's nothing wrong with hookers, if that's what you want.  But the reason I'm on a sugar site is to avoid hookers and the negatives that so many of them bring:  the pimps, the tats, the quick score mentality, the strip club vulgarity .  I'm generalizing, of course. But on my P411 list, that describes about 85% of them.  My ATF and your ATF were the exceptions, not the rule.      You're a gambler, so you know that you don't get to play a high stakes game for free.   You have to risk something just to sit at the table.  In order to bed a top-tier College SB, you have to stake something.   A top-tier college SB is skittish about the whole sugar thing--it goes against everything she's been taught in her middle class, Christian upbringing.   That's the girl I want to meet.  Not the hooker, the stripper, the call girl.  

 So how do you meet a top-tier College SB?  She has young guys, better looking than you or me, hitting on her every day.   She's uncertain about the morality & safety of the sugar scene. She thinks most SDs are probably dirty old men.  You think she's going to rush out to meet a stranger twice her age for free?  Probably not.  These are the girls you'll probably never meet.  These girls aren't looking for a bargain-basement monger (sorry).  

 How about dropping this on the table: $100 dinner date, no strings. And you state in advance what her allowance will be, the allowance you gave your last SB.   You've just taken away a lot of her anxiety & uncertainty.  She needs the money along with the reassurance that you're not going to expect sex on Date #1.  Remember, these are sheltered college girls who are a bit terrified.  A lot of the College SBs I meet tell me I'm their first sugar date.  They could be lying.  But why lie about a simple dinner date.  

 Let's say you try the method above.  And when you finally meet the goddess on that first date, you hold up your end.  You're a gentleman who doesn't hit her up for sex.  And you're honest, giving her $100 cash in an envelope, no strings.  After Date #1, she now has to reevaluate her entire concept of who-you-are.   Instead of "dirty old man", you're now a cool-measured gentleman who has confidence in himself.   A guy who can risk $100 without blinking (like Bond in Casino Royale, lol).  Your chances of bedding this elite girl just went up astronomically.  --

  You can play SB for a while,  but your hooker reflexes will eventually betray you.  Like when you tell your SD, "Your 60 minutes are up!" or "Multiple pops are extra!"   LOL, regards,  --z