Lg i was with you completely until your last paragraph.
I went to counseling and support groups for four years. The stories,from the prima donna's,in those groups(not counseling)led me into greater bitterness towards the opposite sex. Some of that bitterness still remains to this day. Luckily my present wife is learned to understand and deal with all of that.
Keep in mind that my situation is,by far,not to be construed as a normal one.
I’ve read many stories about hobbyist falling for providers and or married women creating an impossible relationship, and then can not get over it for a long time, sometimes years. I know providers can get into a meaningful relationship and married women can get a divorce, I am referring to the ones that can not build the relationship with the man for whatever reason and these particular men are left struggling and can not get over the fact that it will not work. Aside from the old cliché “time will heal”, is there any advice or technique that could be helpful?
In my personal experience (divorce) of course time did heal my wounds, I was stubborn on listening for advice from others, I manage to survive and even though thru this period is when I started hobbing it did not cure anything for me, other than giving me physical satisfaction. Now I am wiser and do guard myself to not fall into this situation and I admit once I almost did and finish the relationship quickly.
LG would you have any advise for those who are going thru this? I understand that what works for one guy does not work the other guy, but is there a few suggestions that would help get over the fact that the impossible is simply that, impossible?
Here's the problem, bluedragon06,
Playing for love in "the game" can be the same as playing for money in Vegas - you never quite know what the slot machine is going to spit out. You could hit the jackpot or go home with zilch to a mountain of agony or bills. Nevertheless, if your risk tolerance is high, or if you find yourself slightly desperate from years of trying to get a relationship together, you WILL be vulnerable and prone to falling for almost anyone if there is a remote possibility that it could work out. Only those who are secure in the knowledge that they a) don't want to get involved with anyone deeply, or b) those who are reasonably happy in their current relationship and don't want to stray, are immune.
I'll tell you what's helpful, and that is to act BEFORE things get too crazy or beyond repair. In other words, when a man who is emotionally vulnerable falls in love, he should begin the work of removing barriers to HONEST COMMUNICATION and start TALKING with his paramour about any feelings that come up, no matter what those feelings are. OPENNESS, TRANSPARENCY, AUTHENTICITY - these are not mere buzzwords but real concepts that help a man assess and develop a potential relationship in the right direction. Most people - not just men, but perhaps men more than women, unfortunately - are afraid of bringing up feelings, stating emotional demands or negotiating emotional terms in the beginning of the relationship, mainly for fear that they won't get what they want or that the person will leave.
In other words, start talking before any damage occurs. I do have successful examples of this: recently, a young man who met a provider off the clock contacted me for some Sex-and-Life Coaching. We worked on helping him set boundaries with her, preparing for the future and dealing with the pitfalls that come with being in a relationship with someone who has sex for money. We only met 4 times (over Skype), but I would say that this is a very smart and prudent man who followed the steps as we worked them out. He is now happily living with the provider and they are both up front with one another, able to communicate freely and negotiate the terms of the relationship without fear or inhibition. Thus, if something comes up, they don't sweep it under the rug - they deal with it maturely, squarely and immediately.
Unfortunately such emotional maturity is not always present on either side of the relationship. Hence, it is bound to fall apart at some point, particularly when the complexity of two people meshing their emotions together escalates. And when it does, there is little else to do other than to wait for "time to heal" and then become one experience wiser.
I would say that every guy who finds himself in a place of the slightest vulnerability, insecurity or confusion in the beginning of the relationship should take it as a warning sign and get some counseling help. Even joining a men's group and talking once a week is a good idea. Anything to strengthen his ego in a healthy and profound way and improving his emotional negotiation skills is key. Because once the damage is done, it's already too late - there are not specific "techniques" that mend a broken heart any sooner than time will allow.
An ounce of prevention is a pound of cure,
The Love Goddess
Lg i was with you completely until your last paragraph.
I went to counseling and support groups for four years. The stories,from the prima donna's,in those groups(not counseling)led me into greater bitterness towards the opposite sex. Some of that bitterness still remains to this day. Luckily my present wife is learned to understand and deal with all of that.
Keep in mind that my situation is,by far,not to be construed as a normal one.
It is so hard to talk honestly and openly with an SO about issues that can potentially damage or dissolve the relationship, even more so when both parties begin to neglect outside interests and friendships to spend more time together, but its importance cannot be overstated.
As my relationships have progressed, familiarity has bred contempt and they have ended. Some sooner, some after many years. One of the things I like about p4p is the chance to see a woman sparingly and when you are both at your best. There is still something lonely about it when the hour ends and the afterglow fades, but I'm learning as the years go by that it's OK to be alone, and it's important to be able to keep your own confidences.
One thing I will say is p4p has made me a lot more inclined to find out a women's motivations for entering a relationship (pretty clear in p4p) and to see how closely it matches my own.
I was in a similar situation as yours. In fact, I started counting the anniversaries of the heartbreak that wouldn't heal. By the time I got up to the five year anniversary, I should have realized that it was about something more than just losing a girlfriend, but I guess I was a slow learner. I'll spare you the details, but it was very complicated- one of us was married, children were involved etc.
Going back five years earlier, I sought help from a counselor and after we addressed the superficial problem of the breakup itself (with little effect) she asked me about my relationship with my mother. Naturally, I said everything was fine, no issues there, this couldn't possibly be about her. But it was.
Things were never fine with me and my mother and the only way I survived childhood was building a high wall around myself to protect me emotionally (and often physically). Without going into details, the only reason there weren't any mother issues to discuss is I refused to even allow myself to think about it, and I certainly didn't want to add that wound to the grief I was experiencing over my lost girlfriend.
The reality was the number of mother issues was so great that the only way I functioned at all was to lock that door and permanently seal it. But while that worked to get me through my childhood and teen years, it didn't work as I became an adult entering into relationships with women.
Unfortunately for me, I was so good at pretending my mother didn't exist, that I convinced the counselor to drop it. But many years later, when I could finally be honest with myself (and also had honest discussions with my sisters), I realized that the GF relationship pain that wouldn't go away was because it wasn't just about my GF, it was about all the unresolved emotional trauma of my childhood- emotional abandonment, trying to win your mother's love and approval etc. etc.
As a result of this experience, I have concluded that you can't be in a truly healthy, happy relationship until you're totally honest with yourself about who you are, your emotional needs and the rough spots that we all carry with us.
Because while guys like to joke about strippers having unresolved father issues, I can assure you, there are plenty of men that also have unresolved mother issues that can derail a relationship. For most guys, these are very uncomfortable areas to explore, so we won't face them, we just push them deeper. But we ignore them at the expense of our happiness.
I agree with LG's last paragraph that says the best way to deal with these issues is before they become issues. I'm guessing most of us wouldn't be on this board if we didn't have some type of emotional baggage lurking under the surface. And I'd be willing to bet that if we asked a poll question, 90% of us would strongly deny it.
I keep hearing the recurring theme of Communication. I used to think that if two rational people "communicated" then one would eventually convince the other of their position and move on. As a scientist my beliefs are based on the logical. But after a lifetime I find in life as well as business that people are not always rational and do not base their thoughts/actions on the facts and logic. I have after being convinced by communication accept the other position.
But it is a major source of frustration when people hold on to a bad position or belief. Even over time after overwhelming evidence to the contrary people will still harbor their position and not let it go. The worst thing ever is to stonewall another. (not reach an understanding or compromise) So LG what do you do when faced with someone who stonewalls? I can "communicate" all I want but there comes a point where you loose your resolve and are doomed. What do you do when people only believe what they want?
NO I do not believe time heals all whatever the issue it will always be a part of your being.
All I can say, Sample Taster,
Is that I've never had any problems finding an entry point into communication with anyone - maybe because it's my job and I've received training to do so. But you don't need to be trained to "get it;" even if she [presumably] "stonewalls," that is her position. She is indeed communicating something to you. Hence, YOU are at liberty to say what you want, even if the person is not responding. And then stand by your actions and deal with the consequences. You don't have to agree to communicate - you merely have to be sure that the other person understands your position.
I'm a big believer in doing whatever you want and then facing the music - that's a form of communication too 
The Love Goddess
We are trained that there's a right and a wrong, principles that must be followed, and that minds should only change when confronted by proof that can be duplicated by others.
A Boeing 787 stays in the air because it's engineers based their decisions on the right principles, not their feelings. The Brooklyn Bridge still serves New Yorkers 127 years after its completion because John Roebling followed sound engineering practice, not his hunches or emotions.
So this is always a challenge for we scientific types because we're trained to frame arguments, follow logic paths, reach decisions, and ultimately take actions based on a set of sound principles.
But do you realize how few people live their lives according to those principles? I was shocked when I took the Keirsey/Bates personality test and found out that I was a 1% type- the smallest in the total population. My type (INTJ) was originally named "Scientist" and subsequently changed to "Mastermind" in later editions of the book. Well, that single fact told me a lot about all my interactions with others, because I realized I was always going to be dealing with people that viewed the world very differently than I did.
This was reinforced when during the course of later executive jobs when I had the customer research departments of two companies report to me along with my other responsibilities. The lesson I learned in that position was that while all opinions may not be "right," they all define an individual's actions. As such, they have value and validity, whether they were arrived at through faulty reasoning or not. So sure, I'd sit behind the glass in research clinics and roll my eyes and groan at some of the things I heard, but they were the customer's viewpoint, and flawed or not, they were telling you the thought processes that would determine their future actions.
The other thing I realized over the years was how few minds I've ever changed by presenting logic or facts in a discussion. A mind is the hardest thing to change, and you can drive yourself crazy trying, especially if you're of a scientific mindset. I've learned to have open discussions only with open-minded people. The rest have reached their conclusions using their crazy straw logic, and you'll never change their mind with facts. In those cases, I just feel them out in order to understand their thinking, never attempting to change their mind.
Obviously, if you're in a relationship, one of the most critical factors to long-term success is finding a partner that views the world and makes decisions in a manner that is at least tolerable to you, if not always fully compatible. I think it's the single most important thing. Since there's virtually no chance of changing the way a relationship partner thinks, you may have to change your expectations, or at least the way you interact with them.
So what you call stonewalling, is really just the inevitable conflict that results from two people who think entirely differently, coming together in close quarters. You will be very frustrated if you view your job as changing your partner's mind. The best you can do is try to understand it and deal with the real issues (not always the same as the stated issues) as best you can. And remember, your partner may be just as uncomfortable with your method of reasoning as you are with his/hers.
I don't recommend too many books, but the one that helped me tremendously was "Please Understand Me" by David Keirsey. I'd taken psych courses and organizational behavior classes in college, but this book did more to put things in perspective and give me some practical insights than anything else I ever did. As a scientist, you might also find it useful.
-- Modified on 6/14/2010 1:44:10 PM
I agree with G2's paragraph 6, I realized long ago that it is impossible to change people's mind with logic and presentation of verifiable facts; it is futile. I have yet to find a truly open-minded person.
In my younger years as a fledgling physicist, I would get involved in heated discussions with colleagues and friends, only to end with frustration on my part. Now I am older and wiser, I stay in the background during these discussions and just listen and keep an open mind, and when called upon for input, then, my participation will be short and to the point. I would throw a few snippets of facts during these discussions and not elaborate (hopefully that will direct the discussion to a logical conclusion). I find that have saved me a lot of frustrations.
In many episodes of the OS, Spock is presented as having all the logical solutions, only to be outdone by the very right brained Captain Kirk who would use psychology more often than not to save the day. (Check out The Corbomite Maneuver)
So often in life, we are not playing Chess, we are playing Poker.
It's not enough to be correct, you must also be successful.
I say this as an engineer and a businessman, so I see the dicotomy all the time.
There is never one's right, and one's wrong. Instead there is an endless range of gray, and the only certainty is that there is no certainty.
I think the sciences attract people that like certainty and absolutes. If you read my post above about my rather shaky childhood, it might not surprise you that I sought refuge in the certainty of science and became the top Physics student in my home state, along with a A-average in all my other subjects. School work became my escape and I learned to do my math or chemistry homework while my parents were threatening to get divorced or kill each other outside my bedroom door. In case you didn't figure it out before, my mom was and is fucking nuts, which I believe is the correct medical term.
Carried by the momentum of my upbringing, I went into engineering. But no sooner did I leave the rather dysfunctional home environment than I stated changing my interests. I started taking my undergrad open electives in psychology and business, then moved into strategy and marketing when I got my MBA. So I literally outgrew my need for certainty once my life became more certain, and I started working in fields requiring more interpretation, insight and finesse.
But four years of science and engineering from a ball-busting university never leaves you, so I continue to have a foot in both camps and can relate to the plight of those cursed by logic in a world that is anything but.
All you need to keep in mind is that men and women are different. Women can and will do things that a man could never do. They can have sex even though their partner completely turns them off. it is all about money to them. As long as you understand this, you will be okay, but once you think otherwise(which is what they want you to think), you will be very dissapointed. Keep in the road and enjoy your time, but be carefull.