Dear crimsonlass,

I'm not privy to the details of your private life or the types of men [if there is one] that you are dating; however, it is safe to say that in "civilian" life, there are definitely different "rules" than there are in P4P. You're not expected to have intercourse with a man on the first date and most men who would insist on such a thing would be regarded as rude. There is a different style of "impression management" in civvie dating. In addition, the man is checking you out as much as you are checking him out - you both come to the table with expectations from each other. In P4P, the rules are already laid out and play according to a script. The man expects sex and you expect money. There are no surprises here, the arrangement is already set. And what man wouldn't be nice to you if he knew that there was sex involved in the next 15 to 30 minutes after meeting with you? The money is less important in this regard - how many men haven't you heard say that "you always pay, no matter what?" So for some, it's a much better setup and their behavior reflects relief at avoiding the mating dance that may result in nothing. They can be nicer and more generous to you, not just with their money, but with their manners as well.

On the other hand, civilian dating may involve quite a few meetings before anything sexual occurs. Many men get tired of jumping through hoops for years on end and many are quite disillusioned from the get-go. And women become very sensitive to the underlying message - knowing that the men want sex but not necessarily a relationship afterwards make women very vigilant to men's behavior toward them. So the expectations are different on both ends.

Unless you're in a fundamentalist community of some kind, I'd say that "old-fashioned dating" is done and over with in this new millennium. Have you been "spoiled by this hobby?" I have no idea; certainly, you have come to expect different rules based on a system that commodifies the sexual experience and puts a definite price tag on it. The other system is not as clear cut and involves expectations of a different kind - the woman expects a relationship after sex and the man knows it. Just like the woman who doesn't want to "put out" immediately, he doesn't want to give too much of himself, in case he never gets to second base. It's a game that is played differently today, mainly because "old-fashioned dating" is an anachronism.

If you want to test the theory, why not try this experiment - go out with a civvie guy and tell him he can have sex with you after 30 minutes of conversation. I bet you he will become an angel,

The Love Goddess

Businesses (Like the one I help run.) are always courting new customers and treating them like royalty.

However, the tried and trued customers are often shunted aside and taken for granted in order to accomodate the new customers.

If you think about it, logic might dictate that you care for the old tried and true first, and then the others.

Maybe it's like the old song:

You always hurt the one you love.

In any case, illogic seems to run rampamt in the world in so many things, why should sex and romance be any different?

Did you know that he puts "love potions" in his lasagna sauce?

PM me and I'll tell you all the skinny on this bum.

But sadly it seems like an issue for a lot of gals.  My ATF hasn't civvie dated in years and another regular lady that I have known for a while doesn't date either.  Both site exactly what you are complaining about.  Their customers treat them better than the guys they get involved IRL.  

am I an idiot to think men who date me should be as nice to me as men who pay me...my friends who p4p are sooooooo awesome to me...but when I go on a regular date the men don't measure up...do you think I have been spoiled by this hobby? are my expectations to be treated well OVER THE TOP? is this a psychological problem? I am seriously wondering if I need to see a shrink to get over myself? is it unusual for a woman in 2010 to expect old fashioned dating? why does it seem freaking impossible to find a man who doesn't want more than a piece of ass? I really don't understand and I am not stupid! so I have to assume I am doing something wrong....I just don't know and it's making me sad

well, I guess you are right...at one point i thought that I should change my dating strategy...rather than meet out, have the fella come to my home....after a few minutes of looking each other over HOP IN THE SACK...my blow job will win his heart NO DOUBT...then feed him a fine meal LMAO...ya know LG I am gonna actually try this method...I bet my bank account that the man is mr nice guy once I am done with him...then I will kindly tell him that he will get a whole lot more once the courting process is over lol BTW I went on a date yesterday and when I offered to pay HE LET ME...this after the motherfucker groped me at the table...gimme a break puhleeeze...ya see, I reflect on my time with a popular poster on ter...this man knows how to date...it may be p4p but he is always very good to me and cooks one hell of a lasagna

lmao  thanks for the laugh Mr. Fisher...on a down day I needed that

I went to derricos and got some fresh sausage

You really walked into that one baby.

Your a gag man's dream gal.

Everyone should check out today's Doonesbury cartoon.

" why does it seem freaking impossible to find a man who doesn't want more than a piece of ass? I really don't understand and I am not stupid! so I have to assume I am doing something wrong"

Most likely you are responding to the advances of "predator" type males who actually ARE just out for a piece of ass.  These type of men, and I'd say they make up a pretty large part of the population, derive their self-worth from the car they drive, the size of their wallet and the notches on the their bedposts.

Men who are comfortable with themselves are not going to feel the need to be overt in pursuing you.  They already know how to get sex if they want it, either from certain obvious types of civvies or by "professional" means.  For this reason you don't often find them prowling around bars or clubs.  If they go to a bar it is to relax, enjoy a drink and perhaps read a magazine, book or newspaper not to bait their hook and go fishing.  These type of men almost always REQUIRE a woman to make the first move because they are not "on the prowl" and often seem rather oblivious to the environment around them.

You see a man who requires validation and confidence building through conquest will usually try to control their immediate environment, be the center of attention and dominate the woman they are with.  In short, they have control issues that manifest in external ways to prevent them from having to face their own internal insecurities.  In contrast a man who is comfortable in his own skin and sounds like the kind you are seeking is in control of himself and therefore doesn't feel the need to dominate his surroundings.  They are often mistaken for being shy or introverted but their calm demeanor will be immediately evident once you speak to them.  A woman usually immediately notices how they seem to actually listen to her and not just wait for their turn to speak.  They are listening because they are not frantically trying to devise ways of attracting her into bed.

Women ultimately control access to sex and have to learn that being in control comes with responsibility.  You are not going to find what you are looking for by just waiting for a man to approach you unless you are seeking a controlling male, because that is what you will get by waiting.  Responsibility means not being afraid to make the first move.  Just look at countless examples of woman who find the love of their life in the oddest places, a laundromat, bookstore, doctors office, etc.  The men there were not on the prowl, they were just living their life when she said "hello".

So if you want to find a man who isn't just after a piece of ass then you need to stop rewarding that type of behavior and realize that it is going to take some effort on your part.  That effort involves putting yourself at the risk of rejection instead of placing yourself on a pedestal and expecting interesting men to gift you with their presence.  Interesting men are already interesting without you and it is up to you to demonstrate why you are worthy of their attention and it is going to take more than simple sex appeal to accomplish that.  Remember, those men already have the whole "access to sex thing" figured out and are going to be more impressed with your opinions and ideas than your cup size.  They know that in any major city they can be having sex with a "perfect ten" a couple of hours after their plane lands.  What is much rarer, and therefore more valuable , is that "perfect ten" in conversation or companionship.  Good sex is easy to find, good conversation and companionship is not.

If you are talking about being polite, respectful, opening doors and pulling out chairs, etc. then no, you are not expecting too much.  

If you are talking about paying for everything, there may become a point where it seems presumptive on his part and thus a bit awkward. No man wants to come across as putting out the vibe that you "owe" him, especially if he really likes you.  It's best to keep the first few dates low key to avoid that pratfall.

Who wouldn't fall in love with you?  However you have a good point.  In my experience, you got to fish in the right pond.  For a relationship to have a chance, you have got to have some overlapping interests.   It need not be everything...  in fact perhaps best if not.  But there needs to be some shared interests.  The non-totally shared interests ned to be tollerated if not both person's passion.   This way when there is time apart to pursue other interests (as there should be)...  then both have something to talk about when they're back together.
So I would ask you to reflect on all of your hobbies & interests.  Where would you find men who have some overlapping interests?  

Every guy wants "a piece of ass"...  and a damn nice one (& everything else) you have there.   But it should not be impossible to find a gentleman for civie dating.  P4P does hit the accerator when it comes to a physical relationship...   but it should not be that hard to converse when there is a common interest.   It may be more rare but there must be some nice guys who are available.  Perhaps this is the biggest pit-fall, those who are not truely free.  

A problem is "time" to participate in YOUR INTERESTS...    When you know who you are, you are attractive.

Best Wishes, Crimson Lass,
skb

I am going to now remove my profile from this particular dating site and try a new approach

Impressive.

This is one of the most concise, thorough, and accurate descriptions of the entire dating dynamic that I have read anywhere.  You have captured the difference between two of the fundamental male approaches to mate attraction.  You have also made reference to one of the most fundamental errors that many women make in seeking one type of guy, while their actions continue to attract the other.

I know there as as many different variations to the mate-matching strategies as there are people, but I am constantly amazed at women that find themselves bemoaning the fact that there are no more "Good Men" out there while they refuse to change their mode of finding a partner.  Of course, the very same thing can be said of men as well.

Humans: we are a screwy sort of animal.  Just smart enough to get in our own way of finding happiness.

I pretty much gave up on dating too.  For some reason civvie guys are convinced that any single woman is sex starved insecure and will jump in bed for dinner/drinks.

When I started out  I thought it is insanity to date clients.  Now I am actually considering it

Lina

I am only speculating however my wager says you don't screen your civvies as well as your Johns.
Don't have sex before the 7th date, and you will separate the men from the boys.

Your experience actually hits the nail on the head.  An experienced hobbyist is usually a successful individual who would be embarrassed to let a woman pay for the dinner.  There is an entire world of men out there who are looking to find a way to conquer women without paying anything.  The problem is that, many non hobbyist have been able to get away with getting their fair share of women without paying for expensive dates, etc...Therefore, to that demographic, they believe that taking you on an expensive date makes them some sort of loser.    My guess is that most hobbyist are the types who have always "wined and dined" women so the jump to P4P simply eliminates some anxiety.

Rudy50 "More like separate the 5's and nerds from the men"
"However, if I like her enough to go on the third date and I find her sexually attractive, I'll be put off by shyness at the end of it unless there is a good and plausible excuse."  


 ROFL.
I can't help but wonder. Do you tell her she has struck out, on that uneventful third date, or just let her wonder why you don't call anymore? I won't wonder what you're idea of acceptable plausible excuses, for her not jumping your bones by the third date might be.
Evidently we  look at women differently. If I want to fuck someone I just met,if she's agreeable,I don't mind fucking her on my car hood, or the storage room at the club, as long as she's not drunk. If I am looking for a relationship I always try to be a bit more nerdy and respectful than Braveheart or Mel Gibson.
I'm certainly not Mr.Hot Stuff, but I've had more than my fair share, of knock out civvies with brains, by not being overly sexually aggressive in a relationship pursuit.
The most beautiful GF I have been with, couldn't walk on sidewalks, because of  all the auto accidents she caused. I knew damn well if she even thought I wanted to fuck her before she was ready,or I put any sexual pressure on her, my intimate relationship chance with her would be shot.All she gave me for months other than her friendship and companionship, were gentle, light kisses at the end of the night.I had to show her how much I enjoyed her company, and she had to feel like she really enjoyed mine, before she was ready to have sex with me. Worked great for years while it lasted ,and we are still good friends. Strangers asked me many times , how I found a GF like her? "Patience and Respect".  Most of the 9s and 10s with above average sense, won't be groping for sex by the third date in my experience, unless alcohol is involved, and thats back to the  fuck in the storage room.
I might be a victim of circumstances and completely wrong. Maybe ladies  treat nerdy guys like me different.
  Whatever works for you Rudy.
I was actually answering Crimson. I doubt't she has any problems getting guys to fuck her by the third date, and it wasn't the question I read in her post.
I'm speculating you have  more patience, time, and respect for your guy friends than your GFs.
 Once again we are different.
You all have fun now, doing your manly things.

I didn’t say I am sexually aggressive or expect my partner to be sexually aggressive (“jump my bones” or “groping”) by or on a third date.  But by the end of a third date I will know whether my partner is someone with whom I want a relationship to develop.  To me a romantic (as opposed to a “platonic”, just-friends relationship) between adults involves sex.  

In my experience and having talked to platonic friends, most women know pretty quickly whether a guy she meets is someone she wants to sleep with.  So, if by the end of the third date the partner is not responding to or rejecting caresses on the hand and arm or backs off when I put an arm around her walking down the street, I take it as a signal that she’s made the decision about me.  The decision is no, and that’s OK. I may be disappointed but I won’t be angry.  She doesn’t owe me anything.  

Or she may respond to the caresses and encourage me enough for me to suggest at the end of the evening that she come over to my place or if we’re at her door to suggest we continue our good night kiss inside, yet she may not be ready to get naked together.  Here, it depends on what she says.  “I have to get up early to meet my parents, maybe next time,” or the like is OK if whatever she says is an indication that things can move onto a sexual level another time.  But if she says, “No, I’ve got to feed my cat,” or some other statement that is no more than a polite rejection, then I take it as a rejection and move on.  Again no hard feelings, she just doesn’t like what I have to offer.

Now, a plausible excuse in my mind would be that the woman is so hot that guys are trying to get into her pants all the time and she’s sick of it.  So, in your example you had a partner who was highly defensive and had a high worry that you (or any guy) would not value her personality because of infatuation with her beauty, an attitude that is completely reasonable and not off-putting.  I might persevere as you did, or I might worry that her understandable defensiveness had caused her not to like sex much at all.  Having had a wife who thought once a month was nuisance, I’m not interested in a romantic relationship with a woman who has repressed her sexuality, good reasons or not.  Hey, if she likes baseball I would still take her to a game and buy her beer, peanuts and crackerjack.  But if she makes it clear she doesn’t want a romantic (and to me as an adult that includes a sexual) relationship, then I’m going to look somewhere else for that. If that’s my loss, so be it.

I am a gentleman in the dating process, and Crimson was complaining about guys who were cloddish from the beginning.  That may be just a string of bad luck and the result of relying on an online dating site where the percentages of ONS seekers is probably higher than the general population of men.  She can probably tell on the first date whether she has a gentleman or a clod and certainly by the middle of the third.  If she holds out until the seventh or later date, IMO she’ll miss out on many perfectly acceptable guys who read her signals as saying she isn’t interested.

Unless a date given me some signal that things can progress, I’ll likely not call her again after the third date.  I’ll assume she knows why or is relieved I don’t call.  If she’s really interested and I just misread the signals, then she’ll figure out some excuse to call me or run into me somewhere and I might reevaluate.  If she asks why I didn’t call I’ll likely be honest: that I didn’t think she wanted things to go further with us.  


-- Modified on 9/30/2010 11:24:18 AM

I agree with all the others.  Civvie dating sucks and the men think that "spoiling me" with dinner and drinks should be rewarded with sex.  They are not as attentive and certainly not the gentlemen clients are for sure.  

It is twice as hard here in Las Vegas as I have to weed out the civvies just looking to get laid while in town visiting.  It is damn near impossible but I am trying.  At this point I am all dressed up, look fantastic if I don't say so myself and have no place to go.  WTF?

when I date a civvie......I stretch out the pre-sex experience as much as possible (or she/i can stand).....    I play by the same rules, whether it be my hobby play or in my civvie life.........it makes for a much nicer experience on both sides of the fence......

if you say you're going to do something.....then keep your word and do it!!!    boys have to grow up and be ment someday......  I've been through the little boy stuff....and learned that it just wasn't fulfilling.     Whether dating civvie or dating a provider.........we are both human and should be treated with the respect we both deserve!   .....but you're right....LG is a surreal environment......

Hobbyist for the most part will be nice and a gentlemen, because a beautiful women who would never give him a second look is going to have sex with him.  Let's face it, I would say most hobbyist are not attractive, usually older in 50's, possibly balding and would be intimidated with a beauty lady.  Not all regular men are DOGS, there are some true gentlemen romantics out there.  Just hard to find.  I'm sorry, but what happens if you do have a wonderful civie relationship.  Do you tell him you're a provider?

your not alone! Increased prevalence of sex everywhere means sex is not as sacred (you won't be satisfied with just one partner) and you'll want many.  this means you'll probably have many short term relationships & not a long serious one. there are however old fashion people still out there (so don't give up), but its harder to find them since everyone else is in pursuit of sex rather than love

I don't know what type of guys you date but if they are handsome & have $ they will have confidence so they might have arrogance & just want that ass.  so if you keep on dating this type of guy you will not really ever find anyone.  you have to learn to chose the right kind of guy.  

Best example would be on "Tough Love" there is a mid 30's woman who always goes after the young guy, until the host points out that you have to go for someone your own age who has the same goals.  The young attractive guy is only looking to party; whereas the older man is more inclined towards settling down.  (This doesn't mean older is better though)