You didn’t ask, but I thought I’d answer the question anyway.  I’ve crossed a barrier between young adulthood and middle age.  Curiously, now just a month shy of my 40th birthday, I didn’t realize this at work or in the gym or on my bicycle (a growing passion).  I realized it while I was in bed in the heat of the moment with a beautiful woman who was paid to be in my presence.

Youthful exuberance and young adulthood created a freedom in sex that allowed me to enjoy myself no matter what.  All I really needed was a beautiful woman with the proper lubricated receptacles.  It was all about me.  Let me pound away for a while and I could pop on demand.  Recently that’s been harder and I was wondering if it was because I was getting older, drinking too much, or stressed in other areas.  But when I thought about it I realized I’m in better shape then I’ve been in since college, I drink less than I used to and my stress level is really no different.  What is different is my preference and perception and my need for connection that goes beyond simple penetration.

That’s caused me to cross a troubling bridge.  Can I really reach that connection in the hobby?  Ultimately, no matter what, aren’t all of these liaisons founded on free enterprise?  How do you know, when you’re locked together in passion’s embrace, whether it is feigned or real when they envelope is laid conveniently by the door?  And if reality is important how do you – how do I – get beyond that?

I’ve had unbelievable experiences with incredible women who were their because I called, and past the test, and paid the bill.  I’ve always liked to take the time to get to know each soul – at least a little – before we jump between the sheets.  Over the last years I’ve significantly curtailed my activities, preferring to see just a few regulars.  While we do know each other, talking sometimes on the phone between liaisons, when we’re together I find myself wanting more and yet knowing that the relationships have preset boundaries that can’t be broken.

It presents an interesting conundrum.  Where to go from here?

I’ll comment on one thing you said.

“I find myself wanting more and yet knowing that the relationships have preset boundaries that can’t be broken.”

I’ve always been comforted by the fact that those boundaries are there. If, when you see a provider again, she says “It’s great to see you again”, and then convincingly demonstrates the truth of that statement (more than just physically), what more can you ask for?

I've found this to be disturbing on some levels as well. It has made me focus on clients that I enjoy and connect with more. Which is the reason I only see a few clients a week. I want a mental connection as well as a physical one. In the end when I've needed more, I have taken on more permanent clients, or simply made it up in my personal life away from being a provider. I'm not sure there is an answer with the hobby. In the end you need to make a list of your needs and find the right fit that will have those needs met. And if it's not possible, you need to move on.

~Varenka

It's probably ill-advised to seek the connection you describe in the hobby. Yes, I too always want to connect on some level-- emotional, intellectual, anything--with a provider. Meeting great people is one of the big excitements of the hobby.

But you'll enjoy the hobby more if you are satisfying the need for a deeper connection elsewhere.

Of course, each to their own.

Hobby well. Hobby safely.

I think "Infrequent and "Char" make excellent points. I would also add that there are probably are a very few hobbyist who didn't feel the same way you do. After all we are only men, no match for the powers of a women, particularly those that are beautiful and sexually skilled. Women in general will always have power over us, we will always want to be with them intellectually, spiritually and emotionally, they make us whole.

However if you are going to enjoy this hobby, you must put all of that in perspective (as hard as that may be). If you are seeking more than what the Providers have to offer, you might want to consider other alternatives. Good Luck.

Reality is how "you" perceive it, only you as an individual can find the way past this because each persons concept of reality is different. I'm closing in on the half century mark and am in better shape physically and mentally than I've ever been and have gone through what you are presently dealing with but on a higher scale due to my attempt at going beyond the preset boundaries you speak of and the results were not favorable. I took a break for around 3 months from seeing anyone new and now have the ability to look at this as what it is - a hobby, nothing more. I do converse with the ladies I see but if it begins to go in a direction I don't feel comfortable with I politely change the subject. I have become friends with 2 or 3 of the ladies I have been seeing regularly for a few years and it is comfortable and relaxed with them which is great due to the fact that we know each others limititations and respect them.
You have to consider that you might be looking for more than what is available to you,if you look to others for your happiness then you are looking in the wrong place - true happiness comes from within.

There is no real answer to your question except perhaps your retirement from the hobby unless you can go back to the time where you only needed properly lubed receptacles.  For the ladies it is generally all about the money.  If you find that concept difficult to accept then it is time to retire.  

One good example that may help you understand this better is a recent party in Los Angeles which was attended by many highly rated providers.  If you have carefully read the reports or talked to those in attendance at the recent Client Appreciation Party in Los Angeles it is clear that many of the ladies were much more interested in getting into each other's panties than anything else.  The standard reply would be that the ladies are bisexual.  However the truth is that many of the ladies were real happy to do each other for free but I doubt that they were going to be doing many guys for free.  In that respect it is no different than gay men who get married and father children.  The fact that they sleep with a woman on occasion does not make them any less gay.

There is nothing wrong with any of the above activities but it does help to illustrate how hard it is going to be reach that connection in this hobby.  Do you really expect to make a connection with ladies who prefer to be with ladies instead of men?  Of course not all ladies in this business are gay but the other barriers to a real connection are pretty formidable.  In rare instances connections are made but they are just that "rare".

My advice is to seek that type of connection outside of the hobby.  The hobby is really not about friends and lovers.

Yes that connection is possible in this hobby, depending on what type it is and how deep you need it...
BUT
figure out exactly what it is you need.

Some ladies such as myself specialize in offering these types of connections when needed - BUT AGAIN - there are always boundaries to be maintained, and you must be working with someone who understands and can communicate about thes matters.

No time to type right now, off to see my mom...
feel free to PM me if you want to discuss the difficulties and rewards of establishing actual relationships with providers.

xoxo,
Sola

It's just PUSSY. Take it easy and learn to enjoy spending time with people you care about and who care about you. Find  other 'hobbies' and look for the strength that lies in your own heart. When you get past wanting to make a connection with the ladies, you'll likely enjoy their company more. They need the money and you need the love and companionship they provide. There is no more honest exchange on the planet. Keep it that simple and you be the "stiffler" you were at 25. Getting old is not a death sentence; it's a right of passage. Your laments are all too common, but they only lead you to Regret Lane... and that is a dead-end street.

Don't try to put a "relationship" that is based on or grows out of the hobby into a traditional mold.  It's certainly possible to bridge the gap of a strictly "professional" relationship and experience a genuine, emotional connection with a provider.  That connection can be a friendship; it can be a "fuckbuddy" relationship if you have high sexual compatibility; it can be romantic; it can be other things.  It is unlikely, however, to conform to any expectations you may have based on civilian life and relationships.  If what you want is a traditional or conventional girlfriend or lover, then you're looking in the wrong place.

Here are the cold hard facts FL. Pie-eyed romantic love is over once you reach middle age. Whether it is "civvi" dating or hobbying it is "All About the Money" The difference being a provider is looking for the envelope and a civvi is looking at your 401K. 'Cynical Man Too' says most all providers are Bi or Gay. Whogivesafuck as long as the date is a sexual success. In two solid years of hobbying I have had nothing but successful dates. I don't have the time or money for the crap shoot that is civvi dating.
   I'm not insensitive to your conundrum FL. In fact I have delt with the same feelings myself. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that I would rather deal with ladies that are willing to give me what I want for the exchange of an envelope than to deal with mercenarys who make it their quest to give as little as they can in exchange for as much as they can con or litigate out of you.

  Cm.

...and wondering myself about leaving the hobby. But having just returned from a fantastic experience with a wonderful provider here is my take.  If you are looking for love...forget it. Period.  But, the real issue may be that you have to be very selective about your choice for the provider.  I find in my old age (45) that I need someone who can hold up her end of a conversation-art, music, politics.  Yup, it kind of goes soft if she is just looks and no brains.  I need a courtesan and not a typical provider (which is why I am sorry I never saw Sedona for example who would probably be what we 'older' guys need).  When you do find such a provider, it is great.  The sex, the talk, maybe more sex, it all works just like when you were 18 but you can drink in the whole experience so much more.  The one I just saw had mostly 9's for looks, 9 to 10's for experience, and the constant descriptive that she knew how to set the mood, candles, music, conversation...the younger hobbiests might give the poor review that she talks too much...for me, the sign of good things to come.

to want more... but you won't find it here.  Some guys eventually need to settle down.  I never partied... so I am trying to recapture my youth and create a super fantasy experience.  But when the line starts to blur... it is time to step back... regroup... and re-evaluate.  And yes...alcohol and stress have a stronger influence on you the older you get...

You sat on the sidelines with your fantasy of a "formidable barrier" to having a real connection to someone in this hobby at one of the hottest hobby parties on earth. You sat, watched, and walked out, because despite the fact everyone else was having an amazing time, you uh...weren't. Now you are whining that the ladies were behaving bi so that is why you were neglected and it is further evidence of why you can't have that connection. Oh please. Temper tantrums don't get you anywhere.

What were you supposed to do? Mingle. Duh. It was a client appreciation party. You did not feel appreciated? Be proactive. This ain't high school.

Sorry I do do have sex with people on occasion who are not in the hobby. Some are women some are men. I have women that are clients. I have men that are clients. I am 100% bi.

Sorry I made out with more girls than I have fingers. Mmmm...savoring the taste and smell....

Sucks to be you. I guess it is all about the money for you.

Next time make the effort, don't just show up.

Give a 10 performance on your next session.

Or keep your head stuck in the sand so that nobody hears you spewing your self pity.

I agree completely Nettie, however, he was NOT even there.  Amazing how someone who was not even at said party can determine that all of the ladies in attendance are gay.

First of all, it was a PEOPLE appreciation party, not client, not provider, but people, all of them.  The party was born in spirit due to one man's actions.  It was that man, who gave of himself in friendship when someone else needed it most.  There are friends and lovers in this hobby, if you are not making any, I believe you are doing it wrong.

As far as the ladies playing with ladies, yes, that happens at these types of parties.  Many ladies chat online, call each other for references, and then meet for the first time at an event.  Just because they enjoy kissing and fondling one another does not make them gay.  Many of these women have children, have SO's, have real friendships and relationships.  There is NOT one provider I know who is gay, truly gay.  Many are bi, many are open, giving, loving, and sure as hell know how to put on a sexy show.  This party was by no means an orgy, but all of us who are in this hobby, on either side, are more sexually charged then the general population.  This is safe place for people to express themselves in whichever way they choose.

I am sorry to vent in the middle of another's post, but Mr. Cynical Man Too, apparently has decided that all providers are gay and therefore do not want relationships with men.  I beg to differ.  Perhaps it is your attitude that makes women not want to have relationships with you, and it becomes easier to just call them gay, instead of looking within.

Kim

As for the original post...Turkana wisely offered what I would say.

But C2, I think you've been pushed into a tight little box of thought that mars your answer
and defeats the purpose of your comments.   Society encourages us to think inside the box when it comes to sexual mores.  Probably our parents, and all that stuff, helped out. I know mine did.  I could be wrong, of course, but the flavor of your post comes across like you've got me/us on a membership roster for a club that I don't even want to join.

  In using the recent L.A. Party as an example (and I don't remember meeting you there) you seem to feel that we want to join you in your frame of mind regarding sexuality cliches and the stigmas that so many of us in the hobby have gotten past.  (And I'm not trying to just rag on you, C2, I'm trying to encompass all sorts of threads in this comment...such as TS paranoia and overall pigeon-holing.  Not all of this applies to the spirit of your post.)  

It's not even the labels that you seem to want to permanently stick us with (like bi-sexual or gay or "straight person experimenting"), but the way, once stuck, you think we should know what they mean to you... and somehow intuit some correct way of behavior.  Did we all agree on some set of sexuality rules somewhere and I missed that meeting?

I know you said there's "nothing wrong" with the activities, but your next blanket statement suggests that all of them would rather be with women rather than have a relationship that didn't involve money with a man.   Dang, that's quite a statement if you're serious.  Maybe, hopefully, you're talking in sweeping statements to make a point.  Maybe I'm misinterpreting what's between the lines of your comments because you're talking about money within all of this.

But money makes the issue even clearer in my mind...these ladies (at the party, specifically)  are in the sensuality business with their primary customer base as men.  (Hmmmm, men at the party....  I think that means there could've been some teasing of future clients going on with the girl/girl thing...as just one of many examples of other ways of thinking about the issue.)  There were a bunch of the ladies that didn't have money on their minds when they were talking to me.  (Just try and figure out how many calories, truly, are in one tit of an erotic cake and think about sex at the same time.  I don't think it can be done... but maybe there's a Nutritional Mathematician Fetish that I'm unfamiliar with.)   And money didn't enter into some of that smooching a woman and then smooching a man.  When you take money out of the equation it gets blurry and you or I cannot define the heart of it.  Can we all please stop attempting to?!  It's like trying to come up with a lame definition of "love" or "life" or "can a guy and a provider fall in "true" love.  Judas!  Of course!  But not if you can't think outside the box.

It's not like men weren't sexually active at the party.  The watching alone counts for some as a sexual act.  And it's not like Freedom Rider wasn't lap-danced, kissed, and whacked with a strap-on.  It's not like that pretty guy in the trench coat didn't have his hands on a lady's bare breasts, holding on for dear life, for a good 20 minutes while his tongue tip flicked her ear lobe and she grinned wildly.  It wasn't like I didn't give Nettie a couple kissys goodnite.  There was all sorts of guy/girl action...but it's a fine line at one of these parties that each lady needs to walk, on how she wants to run her business and how many "free samples" she wants to give out, if any.  Nobody was there expecting free samples.  This isn't Costco or Sam's Club with a lady in a hair-net handing out taco-meat & chicken wings in a little paper cup.  Grab that lady's tits from behind & flick her ear lobe and society will have something to say about it.

 That same night...and tonight as well...there are thousands of hotel rooms and provider incall locations where the box doesn't need to exist.  And at a party where the ONLY thing everyone has in common is a certain admittance to the need for sexual liberation of some sort?  It's one of the only places on Earth where your labels and big box of normalcy doesn't need to exist.  Leave it at home.

It's not only formidable in the hobby to make a connection....it's more than difficult in the civilian world too.  And again, C2, you've just inspired my essay...  The whole thing probably doesn't apply to you.  But don't tell a feller with love in his heart to get back in a box.  Get the razor out of your boot and help him out.  He doesn't need to be warned to be careful of his heart.  He needs to be warned that his heart is a lonely hunter and where-ever you can find a patch of grace to unfold in...do it.

(Even if there's a strap-on involved.)  

to some aspects of your post, CM2. If anything, that party made me feel a bit more connected to providers in general. And the girl on girl teasing was just as much about providers revelling in connecting with birds of the same feather as it was sex. I imagine their careers can be isolating, and here they were together.

I don't think it said anything about a hobbyists ability to connect on some level with providers. As I said earlier in this thread, it is the depth of the connection the orginal poster seems to be seeking that seems misguided.

Reon't mean to pile on, but I also have to take exception

I am sorry my post has offended so many people.  It was never my intention to infuriate everyone.

Everyone gives you a pass, but I think you spew far too much venom on this board. I know most of it is born out of self-hatred. I suggest you found a couch to lay on and discuss your issues, and not for use in the hobby : ), but I could be wrong.

Misplaced, but I hope you enjoyed the post.

And dump on some of the hottest ladies in all the free world.
I had a great time at the party and enjoyed ALL of the Bi or dare I say "Lesbian" action.

  Grow up and stop sniviling CMT

   Cm
(the original)

Seems you should not jump to far from your current practice. I presume your description of pounding away for a while and pop on demand is the current practice. Do you ever try for having more than one ejaculation? Do you kiss a provider, lick her pu$$y, f*ck her a$$, nibble or the breast, have her suck your cock the way you prefer (do you like the tongue to slide little into the hole at all, do you like biting, do you like it more gentle, etc.), and do you at all try to do what you fantasize about during masturbation?

I would not recommend seeking a relationship when all you do now is pump and then pop. You seem bored with life altogether, not just the hobby. I understand what you feel. I try new things often. From unsuccessfully trying to do a BBBJTC to mastering in the last almost 2 years Greek. Then there is martial arts I ventured into, ATV riding, camping more often, and other various items. You are passionate and that is good. Just need to find what you are so passionate for in life.

Warm Wishes,
Jolie

First, don't compare women to men regarding bisexuality, or sexual orientation.  Their brains don't work the same way at all.

In general, if a woman is sexually open, she will enjoy sex with another woman, no matter what her stated orientation is.  Their sexual orientation isn't as deeply and rigidly configured into them as it is with men.  I've observed and read this many times, that an otherwise heterosexual woman can suddenly have an encounter with another woman, even though she has never felt attraction that attraction before.  This isn't like closetted homosexuality, it's more like it never occurred to her to try.  It almost never causes a crisis with her either.  She just steps into it as though she has always been doing it.  In general, afterward the women say it was intensely pleasureable.  

Now, I'm tolerant of homosexuality, male or female, but I can't imagine what it would take for me to enjoy homosexual sex, much less do it without barfing followed by a considerable emotional crisis.  

Second mistake, don't think that sex between a man and woman is, in itself, just an equal exchange of pleasure.  If it goes right, the only guarantee the woman has is that she'll be penetrated.  Not only is no pleasure for her guaranteed, but there's much more psychological baggage, and quite possibly, more power plays with a man.  The money evens it out; it also helps men to be on their best behavior (usually).  

It's not a matter of the man not being good enough, it's really how our biology has programmed sexuality into human beings, both male and female.  We could defy it, but few of us will likely win against it.

Meanwhile, the sex play between the providers at that party was stress free.  That's why they didn't feel inclined to charge one another.  Plus, in sex between women, there's always more in terms of sympathetic pleasure, that is, taking enjoyment in your partner's plesure, because they just identify more with how it feels.

I'm so sad I missed that party, myself.    

 

 




-- Modified on 10/8/2004 1:04:24 AM

-- Modified on 10/8/2004 1:06:18 AM

I understand you're confusion in this matter.

I, too, have become good friends with a lady I have seen on a regular basis.
With all my heart, I would love to pursue a "different type" of relationship with her.
However, we both know and acknowledge that that is not going to and can not happen at this time, if ever.

We know the limits and boundries in our relationship and neither one of us will cross them.
That does not mean that we can't be friends, get together occasionally, we do lunch quit often just to catch up on things, be confidants, and a sounding board for each others problems or concerns.
I can honestly say that I love this woman. But now, she is my dear friend and an occasional lover.
It works for us. Am I setting myself up for pain down the road? Maybe, but sometimes life is painful, and if you do everthhing to avoid the pain, you may as well lock yourself in a dark room.
She is talking about "retiring" soon. What that means for our friendship will have to be determined later, however, I think we will always be friends and if not, I am so much richer for having known her.
I also have another wonderful lady that I just recently met for the first time in person. We have been writing and phoning back and forth for 6 months or so and also have created a deep friendship. I am honored and grateful to have her call me her "dear friend". I know she and I will be close, dear friends and hopefully, occasional lovers, for a long time.

For you who are so cynical and say you can't make/have friends in this hobby,
I say this,
You are dead wrong.
There are wonderful women in this community who are well worth the effort of getting to know.
And when you do, they will return as true a friendship as you will ever find.

Just my opinion...
B

Keep it up Cynical Man Too, I like reading your crap. It's good entertainment!


xoxo
B

-- Modified on 10/8/2004 6:05:37 PM

He's actually saying what many men feel and believe. That your own experience may not reflect his values is one thing. However, how can you discount the man's opinion. Why do so many of the guys kiss the provider's asses on this board? You are not scoring any points. Your posts will not get you a reduction in your fees. Let's agree to debate, even argue from time to time, but this close-minded approach to having certain opinions be second-guessed as BS is a bit troubling, while certain posters say anything they want (mostly providers) that hardly ever go checked. Guys, grow some balls and lighten up.