The other day a buddy of mine casually told me about how much he likes taking his "stepdaughter" shopping for lingerie. In fact he enjoys taking her shopping so much and so often, that he now has a Victoria's Secret credit card just for her. The truth be told, the teenage girl is not even his stepdaughter, but the daughter of a close female friend.  I'm sorry, but am I the only one who sees a problem with a middle aged man buying panty's and bras for a 15 year old girl? This seems to be the responsiblity of her mother or another female friend. The whole idea makes me quizzy and sick to my stomach. Is my friend a PEDOPHILE or just teetering on the boarders of morality and the law? If this guy is buying this young girl lingerie and other intimate apparel, what else is he doing or already done? I have noticed his taste in women is on the very young and even younger looking side, but this has gone to far if not all the way. Should I look the other way and mind my own business? Or should I say something to him. Please help.

To use an old phrase, 15 will get you 20.  Find out what the rules are in your state about reporting schild abuse.

as for all of MY dirty thoughts, I was getting turned on by this post. (Yes, I am sicker than most.)

But, my fantasies are different from reality.

IF this gent does like a 15 year old girl, he shouldn't do anything, until this girl is of legal age. Even if SHE does like him, (hence, she is letting this man buy the lingerie) she is still a child. He could go to jail if the family ever finds out, even though it is mutual.

He does need to back off from her, this is a dangerous situation.

Hell, why don't you hire a young escort for your friend.

Shaye

ps. Good Luck with everything, keep us posted.

Well, I don't think you should look the other way. I think you should pay a bit more attention to your friend, and if he is comfortable enough to tell you about this, you should talk to him about it also, and try to find out more.
See if there is more to it than he told you, and it there is ( God forbid ), allert the proper autoritys.

And no, you are not the only one, I also don't think is normal for an adult (male), to be so close to the bra and panties of a 15 years old.

-- Modified on 11/15/2003 7:15:23 AM

It sounds like it to me.  There is no reason a middle aged man should be buying a 15yr old lingerie.  Talk to the mother and let her know that you've noticed he has a thing for young girls. Even if it's in an anonymous letter. Let her know.
If the guy just gave her a credit card that's fine, but why is he taking her to Victorias Secret?
 

-- Modified on 11/15/2003 6:50:37 AM

Well, I'm a Gemini so I'm allowed to vacilate between two points of view.  On one hand I'm a pretty serious libertarian, but on the other hand I'm a socialist too!  It's sounds contradictory, but really it's not.  The libertarian in me says any free association betwen consenting people is okay.  The socialist in me says there's a strong social contract between us, and that we have an obligation as friends, neighbors, family, etc., to step in when things aren't right.  (Notice I listed social structures, not governmental bodies, hence the consistency with libertarian views.)

Obviously the gray area is whether she is in a position to give consent, and thus be protected by the libertarian view, or whether she's too young/vulnerable to understand the consequences and thus be protected by the socialist view.  The idea that minors can't truly give informed consent has stood the test of time pretty well.  Sure, there are mature 17 year olds and immature 19 year olds, but we have to start somewhere.

In moral dilemmas, you have to slice the problem into sequential parts, and only focus on one at a time or it gets overwhelming:
a.  Is something wrong here?
b.  Should I do something about it?
c.  What should I do?

I sense from your post that you're wasting too much time/emotion on A.  You already know the deal, or you wouldn't have that pit in your stomach, so move on.  Focus your thinking only on B and C.

Take a sheet of paper, and write down the things you could do...  Talk to him, talk to her, talk to her mother, involve another relative, the county, etc...  Then start thinking outcomes and next steps.  If I talk to him and he confesses, what do I do next?  If I talk to him and he denies, what do I do?  If I talk to her mother and she denies anything is unusual, what do I do next?  The mother could be unaware.  She could be a passive enabler (common).  She could be an active participant.

Think two ar three steps into that decision tree, pick the best course of action, execute, and commit yourself to stay the course through the decision tree.  It will be uncomfortable as hell, so be careful not to chicken out mid-stream...  The short term peak discomfort of confrontation starts to overshadow the dull, long term discomfort of the original situation.  This creates the illusion that the original problem seems to be getting relatively better, and thus we justify our retreat.  But this is how interventions fail.

No he's not a pedophile.  Pedophiles are only attracted to pre-puberty children.  In the State of NY the age of consent is 17, however in some other states it younger.  So I guess it depends on where he's located whether it's statutory rape or not depending if he has or does touch her while she is under age.  my .02

Well said...  I think your post really shows the challenge of addressing this.  The law has one set of technical requirements, while your own sense of obligation may have another.

As long as it's mutual, I think no harm. All these 15/16 y.o. girls are such little sluts nowadays. If they want it, who are we to say no?

Well put Omega. While I can understand the arguement of some 17 year olds being mature vs immature 19 yr olds, i still have issues with justifying this behavior as ok. Also, if I read this right, the "girl" he is refering to is 15. 15!!!!!!!! She is likely a freshman in highschool, i.e., 1 yr out of grade school!!! Maybe Im being hard, but to attempt to justify this in anyway is wrong. She is a child and this guy needs help before any additional lines are crossed. Omegas suggestions are great. I hope you consider one of his options and follow it through.

won't get involved unless they are for someone whom they have intimate relationship.

She doesn't understand the whole picture - she's a child, and one who is trusting in an adult's judgement, who obviously has alterior motives.

What to do about it is very sticky. And be ready for any 'consequences'. Tell him you don't think his motives, or his interest is pure, and that he seems to have other things on his mind. Let him know that yeah, 15 year old girls look like 25 year old women sometimes (I DID!) and so, it's natural that he might be confused, when the little head gets to thinking more than the bigger head.
Already have a sweet, young, 'thing' (escort) in mind, lined up and ready to go when you have this chat with him.
Tell him, (good idea, Shaye) that you have someone in mind that he might want to see, and who loves VS Lingerie (I think it's overpriced, poorly made crap, imo) and will even model it on or off for him and help him live out some fantasies. Tell him she's of legal, consenting age, and to lay off the kid!

Then, have a chat with the girl's mother and express your concerns.

Long story short, but I was in a situation where, when I first moved to SD, I rented a room from a family until I was situated and got a place of my own. The daughter adored me and we became very close. She confided in me that her, 'can do nothing-wrong-perfect-brother' who lived with her dad on the east coast had been having sex with her sister (who lives there with him) for several years, and that the last few times he was out in CA for the summer, he had attempted rape with her several times. He finally succeeded and she was afraid to be alone with him, yet her mother encouraged their 'alone time' frequently because they were separated and she wanted them to be closer. This was leading to arguments with her mother who couldn't understand. I told her that she had confided in me and that I didn't want to break her confidence if this were about ANYTHING ELSE, but that, by law, she's a child and I cannot keep quiet about anything that is endangering the safety of a child. She begged and pleaded but I promised we'd go TOGETHER and I would do the talking, but that YES, it had to be told to her mother and stepdad. It was one of the most difficult things I've ever had to do. But, it was the right thing to do. They threw me out of their house and said they never wanted my friendship again, and you know what? Oh well. What can you do? But, I would have seriously regretted it if I chose 'comfort' over a child's safety.

ONE OUT OF EVERY THREE FEMALES is sexaully assaulted or molested, and not just once in their life.. And, i didn't say women, I said females.

And you can prevent it..

I'd say the previous advice you have received is good, with one glaring exception, and it's something everyone on the board should be aware of:

Because of the nature of this hobby, there is a lot of pseudo-legal advice kicked around.  You probably understand that many people posting are not lawyers and have little or no legal training.  With a concern such as yours, you should take all advice with caution.  

Someone advised you to check the laws in your state regarding  sexual child abuse.  This is good advice, but I would go further.  Criminal laws are usually fairly complex, and unless you are accustomed to reading statutes, you may mis-read or mis-understand (no offense intended).  I would call a criminal defense lawyer . . .any decent one will consult with you for free, at least briefly.  Certainly for long enough to find out what, if anything, the law where you live requires of you in this case.  

Likewise, I think other members of this wonderful community should be careful when posting legal or legal-sounding advice.  If you are not qualified to offer such advice, do you really want the recipient and the rest of the community to rely on your comments in any way?  If you are qualified, briefly indicate how, so it's clear whether the advice comes from an expert in the field, someone who watches too much "Law and Order," or someone somewhere in the middle.

WE( I use the word WE with scepticism) ARE adults and should say NO. BTW, why are you using an alias to make a statement like that??????

Pedophile- by law is one who acts sexually and recieves gratification from fantasies relating to minors.

Lingerie is sexy. Every man loves to pamper a princess and see a hot young bod in sassy frilly things.

Because you have yet to really talk to him . you cant slap pedo on him but you can most certainly try to be a supportive friend inquire a little further and take appropriate action.

Our teens are becoming adults at 12 now.
At 12 I was playing barbies still calling my mom- mommy and didnt even know what a penis looked like. And I lived in a very open progressive loving free enviroment. Times have changed. I realize this but it made my tummy flip to think of a tender precious influential creature in t-backs and garters. WTF .
Victorias Secret was the lingerie you bought your mistress not your wife when it first came out so many years ago. Women circa 1986 thought the thong to be a French Riveria super sexy stripper adornment and blushed when flipping through Fredericks. We didnt even have lingerie stores in the MALLS THEN !!! Its was so taboo...
What in the sam hell does a teenager need with her own credit card at VS?
nahh sorry hes a sugar daddy putting in his stake for the future conquests.

Regardless of how they look, or even how they ACT, whether or not they even ASK for it, they are children - and they are SOMEBODY'S child, and YOU are a knowing, responsible adult. Kids look to us for being able to choose right and wrong, MORE than they do or are able to, EVEN when faced with the temptations to do otherwise. That IS what differentiates us as adults.
I seriously hope you are NOT a father.

And, OF COURSE, you posted under an alias. Because you're a pathetic, sick fuck.

OMG, You are a sick man who should be shot on sight along with this bastard. Did you ever stop to think why teens are being sluts as you put it? And just because a young girl of say 15 is acting like a slut, does that mean it’s ok for you to act on it? I’m assuming you’re of legal age and it’s still called rape even if she does give consent.

Teenage girls and women for that matter that have been molested act out in many different ways, one being sexually active at an early age and with many partners. They also tend to be in abusive relationships, emotionally disconnected and/or co-dependent.

This man knows exactly what he is doing and if he hasn’t crossed the line of sexually molesting her yet, HE WILL! It sounds like this bastard has  known this child for many years and is prepping her to have sex down the road so he can justify his actions. (If he’s not already doing so now)

I don’t care if she’s 15, 17 or even 19 years old, if this girl or any other child has been coached/moslested by a man for many years, she is not emotionally capable of consent.

A couple people have suggested this man should act out his fantasies with a young looking escort. I know you mean well but this will not stop this predator from sexually molesting a child. The only thing that may stop him is legal action followed by years of therapy but most don’t ever stop.  

Many serial killers, rapist and child molesters start out by acting out their fantasies only to act on them with the intended victims.

Marcella

-- Modified on 11/15/2003 8:08:12 PM

-- Modified on 11/15/2003 8:12:56 PM

By your description of this guy's behavior, I'd say yes.  I would suggest you RUN not walk to this young lady's mother and alert her to the goings on.  There is definitely something wrong w/the dude and the young lady needs to be as far away from him as possible.

That was so incredibly and precisely worded - wow! Such true words.

And good point, about finding a young looking escort. If a man was merely somewhat taken by the youthful sexuality of this girl, and that is it only, having a young escort will fulfill and satisfy this.
But, if his mind is unstable and he is at all predatory, then of course, this would be the absolute wrong thing to do in any case. That is certain.

That's where you have to feel the motive and access this guy's psyche and his intentions.

I'd err on the side of the child's safety.

I agree - I'm just 26 so it's rather reasonable for me to look at 20-22 year old girls to date in real life...I've been caught already talking to girls I would have sworn were 20+ and turned out to be 15-16. Dress sexy, makeup - definately ads a few years to looks.

I dated a girl (20 at the time) who told me she was formerly engaged to a 27 year old she met when she was 15...explained how her case was unique because she was more mature, etc. Didn't believe her then, wouldn't now. Getting a hard on is one thing, but you gotta back away after that.

From a legal perspective the age of consent varies in the United States from 14 to 18 with many states being at 16.  Of the states with a consent age of 14 most specify that the age difference between participants can only vary by 5 or 10 years or a higher age of consent is required.  In Canada the age of consent is 14.  In other countries the laws are all over the map - some have no laws, some specify age 12 or higher and in some it is illegal outside of marriage.

The above information comes from http://www.ageofconsent.com.

I think that regardless of the law most of us find the idea of a middle aged man having sex with a 15 year old girl to be morally repugnant.  Unfortunately we have encouraged this type of behavior when so many of us and the female rights organizations condoned the behavior of an ex President having sex with a female employee that although chronologically in her early twenties had the mind of a 15 year old.

In my opinion doing nothing is not an option but I suspect that no one will thank you for your efforts.  My suspicion is that the girl's mother probably knowingly has her head in the sand and your friend certainly knows what he is doing.  So at the very least plan on losing a few so called friends over this problem.

Good luck in whatever action you decide to take.

-- Modified on 11/16/2003 1:37:11 AM

Remember that this situation is reversed.  In essence, the law says that a criminal is not always protected by their status as a minor, but the victim always is.

The assumption is that most 15 years olds understand the real-life consequences of killing someone, but don't really yet appreciate the long term consequences of a sexually active relationship with an adult.

-- Modified on 11/15/2003 10:16:18 PM

I realize that some (if not many) 15-year-old girls look like mature young women. But the fact is they're not! They're just what you've said: "girls", not women.

Please, please, please inform your friend that you're uncomfortable about this and to please stop doing this, otherwise you'll have to tell her parents. This is just not right and it is setting a very bad example for her, letting her believe this is normal behavior.

Hugs,
Ciara

Look.  I am certainly no pedophile, yet I love to take my SO's daughter (16 years old) out for the day, spoil her rotten and enjoy her company.  Now, I don't get into buying her intimate apparel, but if she wants to buy something intimate for herself at my expense, I don't have a problem with it.  Of course she is not modeling those items for me either.  I do have her model the clothing she buys when we are out so we can both agree on fit and propriety, but I do that with my own teenage daughters also.  

BTW, she does hold my arm and hand when we are out and I do get a sweet hug and kiss (on the cheek folks, get your mind out of the gutter) when we part.  She and I have a great relationship and it has markedly improved my relationship with my SO as well.  

One can be a "father figure" to young women without getting involved in "pseudo-incest" in the process.  Face it, the first, best relationship a woman has with a man is her father (or his substitute in my case).  It is the only time that she can have a truly intimate, loving relationship with a man and know she is not going to have to be physically intimate in the process.  This is the way most women develop normal relationships with men in their lives; by having a good, strong and safe relationship with a father-figure.

Now, as for your pal, maybe he should be told how inappropriate it is to have a 15 year old modeling intimate apparel for him.  Truth might be that he simply doesn't realize what is going on.

Just my opinion and I could be wrong.
Loarthan

It's not that sick if you are 22 (like me) as opposed to say middleaged. Besides, can't believe people didn't get that I was just kidding around from the "Mr. Outrageous" alias.

But I still believe it's really hard to place the age of these teens. My friend was at a club and picked up a girl and later found out that the girl was 15. She claimed she was 21.

Even on this thread i see that "ugly puritan society" still rampant in this country. The entire world goes in one direction the US as usual goes in the opposite direction.
That guy is not a pedophile.

finally a post that makes sense, i totally agree with you.

If you let me pull the trigger I promis to aim low!!

I can see what you're saying as far as jumping to conclusions, but did you pay close attention to the first post that he enjoys taking her lingerie shopping and only lingerie shopping? It's not a puritanical society when that society is trying to protect their young. Too many young adults and children are not being looked after by their parents and/or community. I don't agree that social services should step in on everything and exaggerate particular situations and take children from their respective homes. However, to give a friend some good advice as to the limits of father/daughter conduct is certainly not ludicrous nor puritanical. If other countries cannot understand our beliefs on certain things, then that in itself is puritanical. One person's beliefs does not justify a nations' beliefs. I've traveled and lived in other countries and believe me they're more protective of their daughters than Americans.

Hugs,
Ciara

I think you're implying some similarity between your situation and the one described, but the fine gray lines of distinction are wider than the Grand Canyon.  If my daughter has to grow up without my presence, I pray that she ends up having a figure like you in her life, and I mean that sincerely.

But frequent trips to Victoria Secret when she's 15?  I'm not saying the poster should off the guy or abduct the girl and go to Mexico.  I'm just saying that the situation deserves closer examination.  If it's not as bad as you thought, you do just what you said...  you pull your pal aside and suggest that maybe this isn't prudent.

Not trying to pick a fight, but I beg to differ.  I see trying to regulate the behavior of consenting adults as puritan.

I think you can be an enemy of puritan thinking and a friend to personal sovereignty and still believe in the concept of informed consent for minors.

I don't have any problem seeking the company of an 18 year old provider on the occasional basis.

I just love breaking in the younger ones and seeing their faces when they cum over and over and over again at the hand of an older, more experienced individual.

It's ain't the youngness that is exciting, its the lack of experiences and the awe they bring with themselves.

Not to mention, there are some really hot 18 year old providers out there just waiting to be plucked up.  God this is getting me horney, time to call Torey!

Gotcha! (hehehe)

Just to be clear, I don't condone pedophilia. Based on the fact described above I still don't think that guy is a pedophile because even thought the girl is only 15, she has already a fully develloped body of a woman. I am actually pretty conservative when it comes to values and morals and protecting the children. At the same time my thinking and the thinking of the Christian Coalition (I am using them as example of Puritain thinking) are miles away. Take Britney Spears for example, I don't think that she sends any "evil" message to any young adults, as those puritain try to imply.

-- Modified on 11/16/2003 5:50:49 PM

Geesh, you two guys!  You sound like nagging women. It's strange how people misinterpret the English language. I am not a complete liberalist nor a puritan. I'm just simply stating that the gentleman should have a conversation with his friend. By the sound of the first post, it seemed like the guy had already made up his mind that his friend might be doing something that is wrong.  Now think about, guys . . . you let a lot slide by from your friends, but if this guy is that disturbed by it and posts about it, then he must feel pretty strongly that his suspicions could be correct.  Either way, he needs to talk to his friend a little further about the topic and find out if his and his daughter's adventures to Victoria's Secret is more of a shopping trip to the mall that happens to be the daughter's favorite hang-out. Or, if she is being coerced into going there because the dad enjoys watching her change into lingerie. We don't even know if he views the outfits she tries on yet. All I am saying is that if he is a pedofile, then his friend needs to do something about it if he feels uncomfortable with the situation. Also, in my last post, when I said if other nations feel their "way" is the only way, then they're puritanical in thought. That interpretation on my part was to acknowledge that these individuals might feel threatened or annoyed at someone else's (some nation's) beliefs. That's one-sided -- kind of reminds you of some religions, doesn't it?

Hugs,
Ciara