Because it's a far more complicated issue than you make it sound.
Because nobody says exactly what they mean, or means exactly what they say. And those that come close sometimes change their mind.
When you say you insist on compensating her for intimate time - how exactly does that happen? Do you make an appointment as opposed to calling for a date? What if a casual evening date ends up in bed - do you stop and run to the ATM? Do you toss a few benjamins on the dresser?
I'm just guessing that you really like each other and enjoy each other's company - that the sex is good, and that you don't want to make any mistakes that will damage the relationship. I'm also guessing that you want to have sex with other women, and she wants to continue working, so you don't want to take undue advantage of the "free sex", nor do you want to be in a committed 1-1 relationship, or feel guilty about having sex with others - thus you want to pay.
Is it true? Is it close? Have you said all this to each other? Or have you just "insisted" on paying?
Communication is everything.
Hello all - let's assume for a moment that you had a regular client for a while and found that you really enjoyed his company. I'm not talking falling in love here, but spending time together outside the biz. Sporting and musical events, dinner out, just hanging around, shacking up together at the weekend, showing off the guy as your "boyfriend" to family and people outside the biz. The gent insists on compensating you for any intimate time you spend together. You are in business after all, and the gent sees other ladies in the biz. I would think that this was a good and proper way to keep things in perspective. Why would you be offended that the gent wants to compensate you for your intimate times together, just because you have become friends and don't set official appointments anymore? I'd appreciate some insight - I can be pretty dense where women are concerned, even at my mature age. Thanks - Gregory
Quid Pro Quo
If she doesnt want you to pay for intimate time she may be interested in being more than just friends. Caveat: Relationships with providers someitmes end up costing more than just paying for intimate time. The way of the world, bro.
The best friendship I have ever had with a provider is one in which we stopped having intimate time together entirely. No sex, just friendship. And BTW the sex was really good. But the friendship is better.
That gentlemen who are most concerned for my well-being, health and happiness choose to compensate me irrespective of whether or not I demand it.
She may not want you to and if she expresses that you certainly don't have to.
However, hindsight is 20/20 and months or years from now she will recognize you as one of the ones who truly cared for her (versus one of the ones who used her affection purely for pleasure-not altruism or genuine friendship) if you do attempt to compensate her or do so in an sneaky fashion (i.e. leaving the gift anyway in an inconspicuous place where she will discover it after you have gone-in its entirety or a fraction of it as a gesture).
The business is what it is-we participate for various personal reasons, the most urgent of which for most of us are no-strings-attached fun, personal sexual satisfaction or to fill our simple need for intimacy and companionship.
However, our intent does not nullify our humanity and sometimes we meet people who simply resonate with us and we find ourselves caring for.
Demonstration of that care, drawing and redrawing boundaries and clear communication is essential and helps us enjoy these fleeting moments in the business.
I suggest you pay her anyway-or make a gesture which indicates that you do not forget the nature of your initial relationship OR the fact that this is her livelihood until the event that you progress into a different relationship entirely.
-- Modified on 10/21/2008 11:25:10 AM
I also have developed meaningful relationships in the industry. But I strongly prefer to keep the lines clear. Any lady that has seen me as a client should be able to realize just what I am. I am completely commitment averse. I am intrinsically poly amorous. I just want to keep the boundaries cleanly defined, enjoy the lady's company, and contribute appropriately to her well being. But unfortunately it looks like this is going to be difficult in this situation. Why can't life be simple? '
This is a great point. I am the same way, in that I feel it is part of my nature to be able to fully enjoy the moment with someone without any sort of ongoing obligation, to form meaningful connections and genuine friendships without needing any sort of commitment or exclusivity. I think to some degree that is what many of us like about the hobby, and what allows it to work well, bu when it doesn't go as planned, it gets crazy. That's why I think the hobby needs to rely not on the fact that all participants will be invariably immune to feelings of emotional attachment or wanting more, because that's not reasonable, but rather that we are able to respect boundaries to allow us to experience the benefits of hobbying/providing without the drawbacks and drama and confusion of many civvie relationships/situations, and to communicate about any issues before those boundaries become too enmeshed.
ALMOST SEEMS LIKE YOU ARE TRYING SO HARD TO BE SMART THAT YOU ALMOST DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT......
I'm very sorry to have confused you : ).
Meanwhile, back at the ranch...
I read what Ally said and it made perfect sense to me. Perhaps that's because both she and I tend to think in a different way. Using big words. If you have ever had an opportunity to ready anything that Ms. Ally Moore has written you would see she IS smart. She can string more than two or three words together and form complete sentences.....
I suggest that you contribute to the discussion instead of coming on here and using an alias to try and deliver a stupid and useless comedown.
Jealousy is unattractive.
~Rae "smarty pants" Monroe
You have virtually taken my thought process right out of my mind and put in on virtual paper. Thank you.
Your last paragraph is one that word for word could have come from me.
Our lives revolve around the choices we make. Sometimes what seems a choice which limits or decreases actually allows us to experience an even higher level of enjoyment.
who is no longer a provider, but we have remained very close friends, and like you and your friend, the friendship is better.
yep - I know. I was married 31 years ago, for 2 years. I have had cohabiting relationships with ladies in the industry for a total of 6 years, 3 years being the longest. In the latter, the lady left the biz, though I did not ask her to, and wanted commitment from me. One thing I have learned about myself - I don't associate possessiveness with sex, from either direction. I am pathologically commitment averse. I'd like to keep this situation nice and clean. If I can't, I'm not sure what I'll do.
If there is intimate time, the provider should be compensated.
If there is intimiate time and there has been an agreement that the donation no longer be accepted/given due to the fact they have moved beyond client/provider, then no...no donation should be compensated.
The distinguising line being "moving beyond client/provider"
I have several clients I am freinds with where we can hang out, etc as you mentioned above and any intimate time spent is compensated. Only ONE I will not accept any donation from since we've "moved beyond client/provider".
Did that make any sense??? lol
Actually your comment crystallizes the issue. Though the lady has not said so, she appears to want our "relationship" to move outside of or beyond "client provider". I don't see it that way. I see it as friendship plus client / provider. I am definitely not looking for anything "beyond". But I really do like the lady....
Because it's a far more complicated issue than you make it sound.
Because nobody says exactly what they mean, or means exactly what they say. And those that come close sometimes change their mind.
When you say you insist on compensating her for intimate time - how exactly does that happen? Do you make an appointment as opposed to calling for a date? What if a casual evening date ends up in bed - do you stop and run to the ATM? Do you toss a few benjamins on the dresser?
I'm just guessing that you really like each other and enjoy each other's company - that the sex is good, and that you don't want to make any mistakes that will damage the relationship. I'm also guessing that you want to have sex with other women, and she wants to continue working, so you don't want to take undue advantage of the "free sex", nor do you want to be in a committed 1-1 relationship, or feel guilty about having sex with others - thus you want to pay.
Is it true? Is it close? Have you said all this to each other? Or have you just "insisted" on paying?
Communication is everything.
I've got a friend that I've seen professionally over a few year period. We both recognize the boundaries, and the danger of messing them up. Still, she's told me repeatedly that if money was ever an issue with me, she'd be mad if I stopped seeing her for fear that she'd charge me. She's offered to bring a friend along as well, or go out of town, all at no charge.
Now, I'm pretty certain that she out earns me by a sizeable amount, so it's not like she'd be hurt by the offer. Also, I know it comes from a genuine spot in her heart. Still, I feel like going there would be a mistake.
You're right about people not saying what they mean. That's the norm, I'm afraid. We don't schedule "on the clock" dates anymore. We spend time together some overnights at my place or hers, many weekends. We travel together sometimes. When sex happens, I electronically deposit funds into her account. It's just too much for her, for some reason, for me to leave cash in an envelope. But I really don't think this is realistic - the lady knows who and what I am - and that I am not interested in a possessive relationship. I'd like to keep the situation as it is, mutually pleasurable and mutually commitment free. No drama. Hell, I'm too old and worn out for anything serious. And the lady has too much of her life ahead of her to burn a year or two of it with me. Been there, done that. But she recently had a bit of a show down with me over the issue of being paid for intimate time together. We did not see each other for a while. Now we're seeing each other again, and I'm donating, and she's unhappy with that aspect of things. I don't know where it will go from here. But I don't see the future in pretending that she is not who she is, that I am not what I am. We have a strong affection for each other - I don't know why we can't just leave it at that.
Start her an account and just deposit amounts into it each time you feel she should be compensated.... then, heaven forbid, when she becomes weary of your intent (*which many times happens after months of infatuation*) and the provider realizes she really isn't a part of your life... then, just present the account to her.
There you go problem solved- here is a little logic that will eventually come back to haunt you (*I've seen it so many times over the years*) ... if you are still compensating other providers BUT you claim to be such a good friend of hers then why are you handing the other women cash but you aren't handing it to her- yes, I know because she asked you not to.... trust me 11 months from now she just won't remember that part of the agreement!
If it is a business arrangement- which obviously you feel it is because you have no intention of the relationship developing into anything else- then set aside the funds you would be giving her and later it will make both of you feel better. Just trust me on this one! I've seen it so many times!
Best wishes in finding what you are seeking ~T
If they ride off into the sunset together, there's a nice vacation fund established. If your thoughts are correct (and I suspect they will be), he's got the cash. In the meantime, he can know he's paying, and she won't be upset about it.
Because there has been a change in the relationship...from her point of view most likely.
Taking the hobby beyond the professional aspect brings into play many emotions and questions. I am sure that it happnes more often than we know. For one side of the equation to want it to move into a non paid aspect...it has probably turned beyond provider-hobbyist for them.
There are numerous reasons from both sides for such things to happen.
Two fall in love and both quit the hobby.
One falls in love and wants exclusive relations(sugar daddy).
FWB and both see others.
One falls in love and the other has no intentions
And I am sure there are many more...
The questions is where are the two of them and do they want the same things. I am sure some times things get resolved amicably and some times not. The pair need to find out and keep in touch with feelings and reality! Emotions can run high keeping it professional, making it personal certainly will emphasize emotions.
Just some of the things I have talked about with ladies during recooperation times and get to know each other times. Like relationships in the civie world...communication is a must in the hobby!
-- Modified on 10/21/2008 1:50:30 PM
Like the TV show of old used to say....
"There are a million stories in the naked city."
I have several close relationships with providers where we spend social time and intimate time.
I always make a point of renumerating the gal for the intimate time. The reason is that I do not want to give any false impressions about wanting exclusivity or otherwise steer the relationship into risky waters. I also don't want to be a freeloader. So far so good, but I think there may be some mixed feelings, but that is life.
It would be ever so much simpler to keep a bright line down the middle of sex and social but I think I'd be missing out on a lot.
Life is not meant to be easy.
Link here for anyone not born in the fifties or before.
I wonder if it is possible to have both. I've tried at 3 different times to be friend and
client, and all 3 times it has turned bad.
I do have one wonderful lady that I feel I could be a friend and client to,but she is hesitant about it. With her I feel that I would rather be her friend if I had to chose one or the other.
To be intimate with a person and be a friend is
very hard to do and really goes against how the
hobby is seen.No matter how you try to keep the
two apart, human nature always screws things up.
It Sure would be a lot easier if emotions didn't
always get in the way. You are right "Life isn't easy"
Basically, she wants to continue working, and I want her to. I want to continue my lifestyle. I just want to spend some enjoyable no strings time together. And appropriately compensate the lady for intimate time. Keep things nice and neat. But of course life is not nice and neat. She and I were both lonely when we met. Now we're not. But that does not have to lead to commitment or exclusivity in my way of seeing things. And to me, not donating blurs the lines. We have communicated. She threw me out of her place a short while back over the issue. Then called me. Now we're seeing each other again, but she is unhappy with the issue of compensation. I can't get an answer from her on this topic that I can understand. I was hoping one or more of the ladies or gents on the board might provide the insight I'm missing....
I'd say if she had communicated that she is comfortable with payment, or accepts it without bringing it up, it would be best to keep paying for intimate time while also enjoying the social aspects as a friendship. But, if she has made clear she does not want you to pay or has negative feelings about your desire to do so, this does as you say blur the line quite a bit.
If as you say this involves both friend activities and intimate activities, then removing the compensation is crossing that line towards an intimate relationship with civvie dynamics. Now it sounds like you do not want that- and I cannot claim to know what she wants exactly, but if she is making an issue over the compensation I think it is fair to say that she has expectations that go beyond what may be involved in a client-provider relationship that has become friendship.
I think your best bet may be to try to communicate very straightforwardly about where each of you are at, what you want from the relationship, how you perceive the boundaries and future encounters, any concerns, etc. and just try to talk it out. You need to make it clear you are not comfortable with completely removing the provider-hobbyist dynamic. There is a big big difference between a friendship that extends above and beyond that basic hobbyist-provider dynamic, and one which excludes it entirely. You may be comfortable with paying for the intimate time and also enjoying friendly activities off the clock, but would have concerns about taking all activities off the clock and removing that dynamic altogether because of the dynamic that implies, if I am hearing you correctly? And that seems to be what she is moving towards?
You may also want to move towards slowing down with her a bit and seeing other providers more frequently for awhile.. Such things as getting emotional or throwing you out indicate she has some strong and conflicting feelings, and before proceeding with anything it is important to take a step back and evaluate things. It may be a case where the relationship has to end, if you are both having different needs or expectations, you may not be able to reconcile it and continue with an arrangement that works for you both- sad but true. I believe that once a hobbyist-provider relationship crosses that line, when there are differing expectations or boundaries, it can never go back. You may be able to keep seeing each other, but it won't be the same in most cases, as differing expectations require that one person's expectations be unmet, and this creates an awkward dynamic. For example, yes you can compromise in any interpersonal disagreement, but with a straightforward issue such as whether or not to take intimate time off the clock, or whether or not a relationship should take on a new role or dynamic, it's yes or no, and if you disagree, it can get a little screwy. I think it is best for hobbyists and providers to monitor for this and try to step back before it gets to that point, as well as try to communicate each step of the way when a professional relationship does turn into a friendship, because it can and does get messy when things build up without any sort of discussion or evaluation of the repercussions, but we are all human and it happens. It's just part of the hobby, and of life. However, I do think you are at that point when the conflicting boundaries or expectations are starting to boil over and need to be addressed for any kind of closure or continuance to occur.
Most importantly, I say give it a fair shot to at least talk it out before making any decisions. Best of luck!
-- Modified on 10/21/2008 4:35:48 PM
-- Modified on 10/21/2008 4:37:39 PM
Really, very insightful and to the point. I've been in civvy relationships before, where the lady wanted to take it to the next level, and I did not. I've lived with six different "significant others" for a year or two at a time, and been married once, for two years (31 years ago). I guess I'm a caricature of the prototypical guy who does not want commitment. I never ever expected this to happen in a relationship with a provider. This is why I am in the "hobbiest" lifestyle. The lady sees her clients, and I really and truly do not mind. Why should I? I date at least one, often two or sometimes three ladies a week. I have other friendships in the biz. So I'm feeling sort of blindsided. I believe that some of us are capable of loving each other (or something close) and yet having no interest in exclusivity, possessing or being possessed. Thanks for your post.
-- Modified on 10/21/2008 6:08:35 PM
Dear Marere4:
I was wondering in all of your years in the business have you ever had a situation where you had to make a choice with respect to a potential personal relation at the expense of a professional relationship? And if so what are the five questions you would ask yourself before you procede?
I have certainly had several situations where there was clearly more with a client than just a provider-hobbyist relationship, such as connecting on a sexual or emotional level, but I also feel I am a pretty open person, and ca experience those connections without needing to take it to another level. I feel like I can enjoy all the benefits, and connecting on many levels, without any need to take it beyond a client-provider setting or create any expectations of exclusivity or obligation.
That said, I can think of one situation in particular where I felt I could have pursued a personal relationship that would have overruled the hobby relationship. I had to ask myself, first and foremost- what could or would be lost- what was I risking? In that case, risking both the great hobby relationship I had with this person, as well as my own security with my boundaries and my role as a provider, were not worth it.
In addition, I had to ask myself whether I wanted to get involved with someone on a personal level or start a romantic relationship at all- at that time, the answer to that was no. Even though I felt connected to this person specifically, I knew that in a more general sense I was not in a place to pursue a personal relationship. I have talked with close friends about this issue as well, and I think the best advice, from a hobbyist perspective, is to ask if you are willing to give up the hobby relationship, with no guarantees of anything else? Because once you cross that line with someone, the hobby relationship can never go back to the way it was.. whether that is something simple, like crossing the line to express your feelings for someone and finding out they are not feeling the same, or not in a place to pursue it, or even to find out they are in the same place and try for something more- no matter what the outcome, you are trading something in and making an irrevocable change in your roles. Of course, you may gain something wonderful, but I believe in more cases than not, there are obstacles which cannot be easily overcome in that type of relationship, and that at least for me, most of the benefits I could gain can still be enjoyed without having to trade in the professional aspects of the relationship.
I believe it is very important to establish your needs and boundaries before entering the hobby, hobbyist or provider, and be willing to acknowledge that these situations can and do come up, and be ready to think with your head in situations where your heart might be saying otherwise.. not to be cold, or imply we should ignore our emotions or potential for relationships- but at the same time, to make sure that we know our priorities, and can evaluate whether the potential risks are worth the potential benefits.
When it gets to the point where you know bank account numbers to wire money directly to her, then you are fwb at the very minimum!
It almost seems like she would prefer your relationship to be a closed swingers relationship if I read it right. No marriage, don't move in, but lets do whatever we want together and keep our partner options open!
The only thing that throws that out the window is if you pay for everything you both do together. If she has started to pay for her own dinners or both at times, you would fall into swing partner catagory(if you stop compensating).
Just a thought from what you have written in this thread from my outside of the box perception.
You could ask her if that is what she wants is a closed swinger type relationship...that is if YOU are comfy with that option yourself!
Good luck...
I do have one curious question...can she read this thread? I would think the details alone even if she did not know your hobby name here that she would be able to figure things out as to whom is the topic of conversation.
Please tell me this is NOT your way of communicating your frustrations or thoughts on the relationship!
Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate your concern, but no, I'm not trying to use the forum to communicate with the lady. She is very UTR and does not participate in TER. She's got fifteen years experience in the biz and a large loyal following. She takes new clients only by word of mouth recommendation from her existing clients, and only if the gent will provide screening info to the existing client. No contact at all without screening. The lady is really brilliant, mature foor her age, and experienced. I don't understand why we're having this problem, really.
It seems pretty clear to me based on your posts that the lady involved here is seeing the relationship differently than you are. Of course she wants to keep working, escorting is how she makes her living. It seems clear however that she does not want to have to compartmentalize the feelings and emotions that she shares with you the way she does with her other clients. This is only good if you want the same thing. It sounds like you don't. I'm not saying that it's good or bad, it just is what it is.
If your lady has no problem with you seeing other women then why not just stop forcing her to take money she doesn't want and enjoy the fun...while it lasts
Life can never be simple when human emotions are involved.
You're probably right. I can't really articulate what it is that I don't understand, other than to say I don't understand why the lady feels the way she does. Feelings are sometimes just what they are. I guess I hoped that one of the ladies might clue me in to something I had not considered - a way to deal with or understand the situation. The lady in question deals with things on a very emotional and intuitive level, and I do not. I've worn a thousand yard stare for a long, long time. But at the end of the day, you're right. I should probably forget the principle of maintaining boundaries, and do as the lady wishes. Worst case, either way is things don't work out and we go our separate ways. In my experience, this will happen anyway, sooner or later.
...is try and tell you where her head is at. She will have to tell you that.
I've made some great friends in the hobby but the key to going beyond seeing each other in sixty minute increments and figuring out how to make it work is always communication. Talk about it, and listen to each other. Good luck.
>> I guess I hoped that one of the ladies might clue me in to something I had not considered - a way to deal with or understand the situation.
Well - there's one way, maybe. How much do you value your friendship - relationship - with her? Enough to cut out the sex? Because then it makes the whole money issue moot.
>> In my experience, this will happen anyway, sooner or later.
In my experience, people who say that usually find a way to make it true. Not meant as a judgement or a snide remark - only a reflection that hopefully you can find useful.
The only thing to care about is:
Is it real and honest or memorex or shall I say friendship of convenience.
Providers are ladies giving us hobbyst's pleasure.
I have made many friends and some are real and some were one of convenience. As long as you are empathy for others, everything eventually falls in place as long as you are not walking around with heavy baggage of guilt and such.
Intent to make many more as time goes along.
I think there are some really cool guys out here who are single.
I am really intrigued by this thread. May be I should ask escorts out for LTR, but the question will escort be committed enough to start a family
Would be an interesting undertaking and who knows it might work.
I am single in my early thirties, doctor, great personality.
Sounds like she likes you on a different level. She wants to see the relationship with you as strictly voluntary just as any friendship or boyfriend/girlfriend relationship is, and not a business arrangement. Therefore she's not happy with you paying her because it's like a slap in her face that she is nothing more. It may be best to stop seeing each other before things get ugly. Now if it were me, I'd never turn down cash, lol.
Ironically i've become "friends" with a few select few of the great gentlemen i've seen, to the point that we go for dinner or a cocktail if i'm not busy and have nothing else to do, but when it comes to sex it's always business..and it's defined and known to the few i've become friends with. and never never have i had a problem, and usually it ends up back at my place for the "hour" they love..not always but on occasion and ALWAYS suggested by them, never me!
Jay
Greg: I think most providers who are in the biz aren't really looking for a boyfriend- although we are compensated to provide fantasies... I think it usually ends at the door.
As I have stated on numerous occasions.... I have witnessed relationships where a provider and client just hit it off and both work to make it successful but this is the exception more than the norm. I also have intense respect for Mr fisher and I think he has found the much desired "balance" of friendship between a provider & her client.
There is nothing wrong with having close friendships with a provider and if the friendship lasts for a considerable amount of time then the chances of the bond being close is likely but entwining personal with business just never seems to work out in anyone's best interest for the majority of the providers. I also think that the experience level of the hobbyist and the experience of the provider also plays a huge part of the likelihood of such an arrangement being successful. Most established providers- (*that is a provider with 4 or 5 years of experience in the business*) have been witness to enough along the lines of business to make an informed decision about what she is capable of.
Also realize: a provider-client relationship is usually very bias and the small amount of time they spend together isn't a true reflection of either person. Both the hobbyist and the provider are getting the best of each other.... so extending it into a full time relationship is already laden with variables that prove to be fatal to most attempts of this sort. It takes a very wise provider as well as a seasoned hobbyist to actually make a personal relationship work when both meet each other through the biz. Not trying to sound pessimistic just being honest.
My best wishes to you finding what you are seeking. ~T
Hi Tori - The lady has over 10 years experience and I over 30. We're pretty mature people. I am the one in the equation that wants to keep it simple. I lived with a provider for almost 3 years once. Way too much drama for both of us. It "worked" more or less, and I would not trade away the experience, but neither do I wish to repeat it. It's the illusion, created by the fact, as you say, that in a biz relationship you are getting the best of each other and not all of the mundane (and the drama), that is the reason I am exclusively in this lifestyle. It's wonderful, and I don't want to mess it up. Thanks for all of your input - Gregory
This is kinda long for a first posting, but the topic got me thinking. My experience as a client has been that the client/provider relationship, once established, is pretty much set in stone.
Consensual intimacy, when it arises from mutual attraction alone, is accompanied by an unspoken agreement on both sides: "I want to share something intense and personal with you, and I'm trusting you." There's an emotional balance between the partners, they both consent to get naked physically and (to whatever extent) emotionally.
But when money changes hands, there's a mutual understanding between client and provider that there MUST be a barrier of dishonesty at a certain level, in order to preserve emotional anonymity. And dig it... that anonymity allows both parties to be all-out sexual animals in a way they might never be with someone who has the power to break their heart.
It's not the same as a relationship that develops spontaneously, because from the outset "I want to" is not a requirement on both sides of the equation. That emotional inequity is balanced out by the exchange of cash. Any chance of the emotional exchange becoming more balanced is ruled out BECAUSE of that cash. The only way for a provider/client relationship to transform into emotionally balanced friendship/love would be if cash were somehow to be removed from the equation... which ain't gonna happen. Money don't step aside for nobody.
So if an emotional bond starts to develop and grow between client and provider, it can get awkward. Sure, it's just two human beings, and in other circumstances a bond possibly could have developed, but it's like that Cindi Lauper song... "Money Changes Everything."
That's just my personal observations... I've become closer to a few providers over the years, and found myself wishing we could have been friends first, but who knows how that would have turned out? Maybe the sex wouldn't have been as amazing.
I'm sure we all know providers who became clients' wives or girlfriends, but dig it... that cash is still moving in only one direction. And the flip side is, as a friend of mine once said, anyone who marries for money earns it.