There is a thread on the Porn Star board that I would like to bring up here. It is a question about a black porn stars rates, and what makes her a porn star. If you want to see the original post it is still visible on the Porn Star board, otherwise my response below will answer all of your questions.

Not only did I touch on the original thread subject which was RATES, but I touched on other subjects of race in our industry as well. Please feel free to discuss ANY part of my or the other members posts/threads.

My question is: "Is our industry really a microcosm of our society"? Are white women treated differently than black (Hispanic, Asian, etc.) women?

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My answer to the original thread below:

I'm not a Porn Star...I'm "just" a provider. I participate on the National Board on a regular basis. I'm known for speaking my mind, so here goes...

I find this whole discussion "interesting". IMHO the "flames" are symptomatic of what is STILL wrong with our society. Unfortunately our industry is a microcosm of our society. While no one here has said anything about "racism" (AND I AM NOT ACCUSING ANYONE HERE OF RACISM)...I wonder if that's not what we are REALLY talking about here.

Issue has been taken with Ayana's rates. In this industry we ladies have the privilege of setting our own rates...from $20.00 to $10,000.00...

What I find "Interesting" is that I seriously doubt that ANYONE would ask a WHITE provider to justify her rates...no matter how many movies she's made. It was asked, "What makes you a porn star"...are we really asking, "What makes a BLACK woman a porn star"?

On the National Board there was a thread about "The Truth". A bitter retired provider made sweeping generalizations about the industry...when in reality she should have been speaking only of her own experience in the industry. I have my own frustrations with the industry...none of them are related to "The Truth" in that other post.

My frustrations are related to race. I'm in no way, shape or form jealous of White providers who make tons of money...I say, "you go girl". I am in a situation right now where my roommate (a stunning brunette) makes more than I do. Why? Because she is white. Period. When she gets a phone call the gentlemen rarely balk at the rate. They are happy to pay it. Her rate is at least $150.00 more than the average provider in our city. When a gentleman calls "me", he is expecting me to quote him some ridiculously low rate because I am Black. When I tell them my rate I can hear their "gasp" of disbelief. How dare I charge so much? I'll get some guy who is used to telling his wife he's going to get a pack of cigarettes  (then pays an African American SW for a $20 BJ) he'll call "ME" and get angry about my rates. What do I say? "Stop Slumming"! You get what you pay for! If you are used to paying $60.00 then you need to go back to the street corner you came from and find someone there...that is YOUR issue, not mine.

I've got my own Top Ten List of frustrations:

10: Unwillingness to write a review.

I had a LEGION of happy repeat clients (97% white males), yet only a handful of reviews. I finally realized that to review me they would have to admit they were with a Black woman...still Taboo in our society.

9: Tired of hearing the statement: "Oh, You're not FAT!"

Okay...if you thought I was fat why did you come to see me? I'm Creole, Hispanic and Afro American...I'm Voluptuous and I don’t apologize for that. If you want a stick figure I'm not the girl for you.

8: Tired of hearing the statement: "WOW, You're really pretty!”

Again, if you thought I was unattractive, why did you book an appointment? I have dark skin, which does NOT automatically mean that I am unattractive.

7: The statement: "You're so articulate".

Of course I am articulate! Why is it assumed that "I iz uneducated" just because I am a dark skinned black woman? There are uneducated women of all races out there...don’t assume I am uneducated just because I am black. STOP SLUMMING!

6. The statement: "You are really clean"

AAAHHHGGG!!!! STOP SLUMMING!

5. The question: "Why is your rate so high?"

Answer: Because I'm worth it!

4. Assuming I am a DOMINATRIX (or Kinky) because I am black.

I don’t want to SPANK YOU, TIE YOU UP, BEAT YOU, YELL AT YOU, TORTURE YOUR NIPPLES, PISS ON YOU or do ANYTHING even remotely related to those things.... so STOP ASKING.

(4a: Assuming I will "do it" anywhere - I will NOT do it in a car, I will not do it in a bar, I will not do it in a truck, sorry guy you're out of luck, I will not do it on a train, I will not do it to the point of pain, I will not do it on a log, grab the leash and call off your dog...I will not do it on my head, I'll only do it in a bed!)

3. Assuming I do DRUGS just because I am black.

I DONT do CRACK, CRANK, METH, POT, COCAINE, HEROINE, ICE, EXTASY...NOTHING! I NEVER have. Not only do I not do drugs, I don’t even drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes.

2. Assuming I have children.

Contrary to popular belief, black women are not mindless baby machines. I have no children...why is that so hard to believe?

AND THE NUMBER ONE FRUSTRATION...(Drum roll please)

1. Assuming that just because I am doing this I cannot do anything else.

I actually had a career before I became a provider. Not only did I have a career, I actually ran my own business on the side. Shocked? I have never been on welfare, my parents were college educated and my sisters went to college as well.

===========================================================

I have had SO MANY WONDERFUL CLIENTS who did not make these assumptions about me and had a great time. I had a legion of wonderful regulars in Las Vegas who treated me like the Nubian Queen that I am. Unfortunately it's the one or two creeps who call and ruin it for everyone. I don’t blame Ayana for wanting to weed out the creeps on the phone...white providers cannot even fathom what I am talking about.

Well...

Back to the original premise. If Ayana had been a WHITE provider/porn star, would the question of her rates have even been asked?

my .25 cents worth

sable


-- Modified on 10/22/2002 10:36:14 PM

Don't agree. Calling yourself a porn star is what I would call "marketing". Race or color has, or should have, nothing to do with it.

Of course, Ayana can ask whatever she wants. The market will decide whether she's worth it.

Do keep speaking your mind. Don't have others speak your mind for you, as a couple well marketed LA girls do.

I do not think that anyone other than the original responder can answer your basic question for sure.  I do know the subject regarding who is a porn star in a general way has been brought up several times and I believe in a specific instance once or twice that I have read.  Apparently there are a number of ladies who market themselves as porn stars who have done zero movies, only a very few movies, or may only have a webcam sex site.  They want to be known as porn stars to raise their rates (income).  In general that is a fair question to ask if you are paying a premium price for the novelty of seeing a lady who has been seen on film by millions.  It appears that the gentleman that questioned her credentials was not familar with her and attempted to do an internet search with an erroneous spelling of her name.  The bottom line is that he did not do his homework.  Could his attack have been racially motivated. Possibly.  IMHO he was probably ignorant of her film credentials and also wanted to take a swipe at the former porn board moderator the Doctor.

As to your other frustrations I am sure that some of them may be racially motivated all of the time, others some of the time and others may be more related to the profession than race. For example your number one pet peeve is "Assuming that just because I am doing this I cannot do anything else."  I am sure with all the stereotyping of this business that some men may think this of all providers.  I think that many ladies make more in this profession than they could in any other profession they are currently qualified for.  Bully for them they are maximizing their potential income.  I have met several ladies in this business who have undergraduate degrees in physchology or sociology. They are educated articulate ladies. If they were seeking employment in the private sector with those degrees their salary would probably be 20 to 40K a year and it might not even be a direct use of their education.  Of course if they have the drive and talent they could become self-employed in another business and potentially make millions with or without the degrees ala Bill Gates.

As to the general tone of your post I can't put myself in your shoes but some people that you feel are treating you differently because of your race may be treating you that way because they treat everyone like crap.  This is not the best example but here goes.  I was reading reviews of golf courses on the internet and came accross a course with a number of poor reviews relating to service.  One gentleman thought he was jerked around because he was black.  Several other reviews rated the service as poor because the staff acted like asses.  The one gentleman may have been treated badly because of race but I think it also may be possible that he was just another customer treated poorly by a poor staff.

I do not always agree with you Sweetsable but hope you continue to post because I enjoy hearing your viewpoint.

He starts out by saying: Your beloved publicist Doc is gone so now you will have to face the music.

It seems to me that he's been seething about this for a while, and now he can attack her because Doc is not there to protect her.


He goes on to say: Just because you charge $1000 an hour it doesn't make you a pornstar. The reason those ladies get those rates is because they are famous. I haven't seen 1 scene of any adult movie ever with you in it.

She's charging $1,000 and he's none too happy about it. I guess it is his assumption that if "HE" hasnt seen a porno with her in it then "Whoa, it cant exsist".

He continues: You went from being an escort from Atlanta that charges $300 an hour to the WORLD to a an exclusive courtesan and XXX model film star that only caters to upscale gentleman with distinguished taste in less then a Year?

I really dont know if this rapid rise to "fame" (within a year) is the norm in the porn industry, but TO ME he's trying to make it sound like one day she was a $2.00 crack ho and the next she was one of Heidi Fleiss' girls. He's making it sound like this cant happen to ANYONE (white or black) and for that reason she's lying.

He seems to have done is research: Adult Stars Close Up has the newest and hottest young talent never seen you on it, went to Bomis.com to see if you have your own adult ring, NOTHING? did a search for Ayanna Angel guess what 330 matches none were of you?

I applaud him for looking up her credits, but she clearly has a link on her site that shows her videos (with her featured on the cover [with other beauties]) and she even has a link to purchase them. All he had to do was click on it.

And finally he throws in a little sarcasm for good measure: From now on I'm President of the United States, I know I wasn't elected but if you can call yourself a pornstar then I'm President and by the way I want my 250,000 a year, thanks.

EVERYONE IS ENTITLED TO THEIR OPINION, and I am not saying he is wrong and I am right...(I'm always right, but thats a whole other thread - lol!) What I am saying is "what the heck made this guy go after her like that?" I dont go on the Porn Star board enough to know if he's asked the same question about WHITE Porn Stars. If he has, then I stand corrected and humbly apologize for going on my little rampage. If not, then I ask you "could my question/point about race be valid?".

my .02 cents

sable

Hi there,

This may be somewhat peripheral to the discussion, but I've been "attacked" on other messageboards, and being white I don't think in my case it was racially motivated.  But having some experience at this, this is my take - it's an internet phenomenon.

The internet gives some people a false sense of empowerment - because they can post their irrelevant and gratuitous opinions about just about anything, it gives them a feeling of being in the driver's seat, as if it was really up to them to accept or reject someone or something, when in reality their opinions don't count for anymore than they do in the 'real' world.  Obviously, if people weren't willing to pay her rate, she would find that out quickly enough herself.  Hopefully, Ayana has a thick enough skin, and I can say that in my experience, there really isn't any bad publicity - no one is going to make up their minds based on what someone else says, but they may just spark enough interest to go check her website out themselves.

Having said that, I don't mean to discount racial discrimination in her case.  As a Canadian who's traveled in the US quite a few times over the last few years, my observation would be that it's ALWAYS about race.  So probably what you have here is some misogynistic racist who's feeling empowered by the internet to spread his pearls of wisdom far and wide.

Just my two cents!

-Anya

I think the issue here was simply: what is the difference between a woman who is an "authentic" porn star and one who has simply shot a couple of movies.

Offhand I would say that the "star" is primarily known for her films, escorting being a sideline. Increasingly one sees escorts doing a couple of token films to jump on the porn bandwagon for purposes of marketing themselves, and I suppose for a hobbyist who is desperate for an actual "star" then the distiction is important.

The attack against Ayana's PS status was such a hobbyist, and I think race is incidental here... he doesn't want "black" or "white" or even a "woman" per se: the focus is just on a USDA-grade Pornstar.

About race generally, though, of course it is a significant factor in the escort industry, probably more than in the world at large where antidiscrimination laws have effect... I know it is big in the adult film world, where ladies of color are compensated far less than their fair-skinned sisters. Most of your specific complaints (surprise at educational level, at being clean, etc) however are not racially motivated so much as deriving from a perception that providers come from society's bottom rung, whether trailer park, ghetto, or barrio... probably clients who make such comments are fairly new to the hobby, and in due course they will learn that providers come from more of a socioeconomic cross-section.

No solution to the race issue comes to mind; clearly the law cannot enforce equal opportunity where the law is not allowed to tread.

H.

SweetSable,

I have seen an awful lot of messages like the one you reference directed at high priced providers of every ethnic background.  For example, the mere mention of Anne Marie, the "educated escort" who charges $24,000 for a weekend, typically draws heavy fire from the "no piece of @$$ is worth more than my pick-up truck" brigade.  If Anne Marie were any more white, she'd be clear.

I think carping about prices at the high end is much more about envy than anything else.  No one is forcing anyone to pay Ayana's rates, or Anne Marie's, or Leila Graham's for that matter.  Apparently there are gentlemen that feel that the experience far outweighs the cost, or they wouldn't charge so much or would leave the business.

This is not to say that there are not racists out there, or that the guy griping about Ayana's rates was not one of them.  Rather, I fear that automatically assuming that this man's problem is racism lessens all of our understanding of this societal problem.

Sorry but I don't agree! I would never be "ashamed" to be with a woman of color. I honestly ask, are you being a little prejudice?     Rob

First of all, I cannot address the porn star issue since I've never gone there.  I just don't have the frame of reference to write intelligently about the subject.  However, I believe the reason why white providers can charge more than their black sisters is because there is simply more demand for white women.  For whatever reason, it appears that most hobbyists, myself included, are white.  While I've seen numerous ads by very attractive black providers, I've never sought to retain the services of one.  For one thing, I feel more comfortable with white women.  Also, black girls just aren't part of my usual sexual fantasy.  I'm sure a lot of guys feel the same way; hence, the greater volume of calls to white providers.  If that makes me racist, then I'm racist.

Like you said, black women just are not a part of your sexual fantasy. That's fine! :0)

My point was about rates. Would this guy ask the same question to a WHITE provider? Would he be questioning a white providers film credits and rates?

I love adult book stores and go there about 5 or 6 times a year (thats alot for me). Of course there are different sections. You've got the "gay" section way in the back by the coke machine, the black/inter-racial section up against the wall, and the rest of the store is filled with books/magazines/videos featuring white actors...

If a guy is not specifically looking for the black/inter-racial  section he wont see it. Just because a black woman's videos arent front and center for the world to see does not mean she is not a star in her own genre.

Again, yes the "Blue eyed blonde" is the american fantasy, and again I say "you go girl". I'm not angry because I know I'm not everyones cup of tea. I'm not a quantity provider anyway, so I get just enough business to make me happy. It is what it is.

He flat out asked her what made her think she was a porn star and then proceeded to ask her to justify her rates. He seemed to be saying: "who do you think you are?"...and that's what I'm taking issue with.

The question again: Does anyone ask white providers to justify their rates (or film credits)?

.02 more cents.

sable

I would not be surprized to find a good bit of variation between different areas of the country.  Here in LA while there are good number of very high quality black providers I tend to think they are underrepresented as a function of the population as a whole.
Akro

I frankly have no interest at all in the porn gals & therefore don't ever read the porn board here, so obviously I didn't see the thread you've referred to.  IMO the whole concept of "porn star" is a turn-off...I refuse to pay extra $ just because she's done something in front of a camera.  I mean, does that really make her any better than she would be otherwise?  And what's with the "star" label on all these gals?  Why not just "actress?"  In the mainstream movies, supporting cast members certainly aren't billed as stars.  Why should porn be different?  But that's just my take...& I've probably digressed from the subject.

With respect to the issues you've raised regarding race..I'm not sure there are even any answers to be found, at least not realistic solutions, even though there is no doubt that many inequities exist.  The entire question of race is extremely complex in our society as a whole, & I'm of the opinion that this business probably is, to at least a certain extent, a microcosm of society as a whole.  

We all have our perceptions, which are based in no small measure on our own experiences, & that which is true of certain people isn't true for all.  I don't doubt that in your list of frustrations there have been times when there was a racial assumption made by the hobbyist, for you would know that far better than I.  But it could easily be true that it wasn't the case all the time.  Nos. 7+8 for example could be nothing more than a compliment which might be given to a white provider as well...many gals look better in person than in photos, & how would a guy know how articulate a provider would be until he's had the opportunity to talk at some length with her?

My response to your frustration #10--There can be many  reasons why reviews aren't written.  I think we all know that.  I've written some myself, but on quite a bit less than half the gals I've seen.  It has nothing at all to do with race, but I don't write reviews any more unless I feel there's a particular reason to do so.  I will be writing one very soon, because the gal is new & just getting started...& she happens to be black.  A certainly representative portion of my posted reviews are of black ladies, as is true with all other ethnicities.  OK, all that makes me is an "equal opportunity" player.  Of the other hobbyists I know, all of whom happen to be white like myself, one will not see black gals & another will see nothing but black gals...as far as I know, race makes no difference to the rest of them.    

In any barrel there are a certain amount of bad apples, regardless of the issue, & sad to say, those few always seem to be somehow larger in number than they probably truly are.  But as I said earlier...this is merely my own perception.

IMO, you suffer from "Black Woman Disease" (that is not a fact, just my opinion).  You think everything is about you and blame "society" for being racist.  

Step back and consider the big picture, NOT the view from your own myopic prescription.

Here are some FACTS:
Some white individuals are racist, some black people hate white people.  But "society" is NOT racist.  

The majority of white providers DREAM of charging Ayana's rates.

If you actually believe high end white providers are not challenged about their rates, you are not very smart.

If a provider looked like Vanessa Williams, Tyra Banks, etc., had a great attitude, made a couple porn flicks, and had consistently optimum reviews - she could charge $1500+ per hour and still turn guys away.  

In any profession in the U.S. where appearance matters, top dollar goes to thin beautiful "stunning" women.  "Voluptuous" equals a pay cut.  Look at models, actresses and media personalities.  (Oprah Winfrey is the exception here, but her talent, work ethic and compassion for people have catapulted her to the highest echelon of TV personalities).

People assume you have children because most providers and hobbyists HAVE CHILDREN! Why the F-- do think they are classifying you as a "mindless black baby machine?"  To me, a provider who is a Mom is often trying to support their family as best they can - just like I try to do. It's also a conversation "ice breaker".  Get off your trip, girl.

You are tired of hearing, "you are really pretty", "you are really clean", "you are so articulate".  Do you realize that these statements are compliments?  If you had a manager (which would be good for you), she would tell you that these compliments are in no way offensive.  Maybe it would help if every time you heard a compliment that was "frustrating" you immediately countered with a sincere compliment to your client (thus changing the subject and focus of the session).

Sable - perhaps you just need a little vacation.  Get away and recharge the mental batteries.  Life is what you make it - so go for it!  A positive attitude will reward you in mind, body, spirit and your bank account.  A negative attitude chains you to the bowels of life....

Good Luck

"I dont think they would see you if it were that much an issue."

Not exactly....

We had a post some time ago from a former provider, a woman of color, who spoke about the distasteful (at best) and racist (at worst) things she would have clients say to her about Black men. Clearly at least SOME of them were racist...that didn't stop them from fulfilling their "jungle fever" fantasy.

Indeed, I'd argue that some percentage, probably small, but some percentage of business for an African American provider stems directly from subtle racism...the belief on the part of some ignorant sumbitch that sex will some how be "different" with a Black woman. That Black women are insatiable sex machines with no dignity, or morals or limitations. I know I have heard such comments before.

I don't disagree with the premise of your post entirely, or that of JackCracker (though I support his a tad bit less). The thing is though...good minded, non racist whites often are "naive"? in their ignorance to just how purvasive racism is. They think that Blacks "pull out the race card too often" because they know that THEY aren't racist...without knowing that many of their peers are. "We" (African Americans such as myself) pull out the race card "often" because we are so USED to race being an issue...so it becomes easy to assume it is just about every time we are slighted. Remember, as an African American hobbyist, I have to "hope" and "guess" that a white provider will see me....some have even suggested that I am obligated to make my race known when setting the appointment. In a world where such thinking exists, why wouldn't I assume race was the issue if, for example, a provider cancels on me after I arrive?

Remember...more than 60% of whites voted for David Duke when he ran for Governor in Louisiana. How many of them would admit to as much after he lost? (For those of you who don't know, David Duke was the former Grand Wizard of the KKK)

-- Modified on 10/24/2002 5:27:58 AM

-- Modified on 10/24/2002 11:54:40 AM

Sweetsable,
you ask if the men would ask the same questions about rates and such of a white provider.  I am a blue eyed blonde provider and I have heard almost everything you do.  Below are my thoughts and reactions to what I hear.


10: Unwillingness to write a review.

Doesn't really apply to me because I would rather not have one written

9: Tired of hearing the statement: "Oh, You're not FAT!"

Have to be honest, never heard that one

8: Tired of hearing the statement: "WOW, You're really pretty!”

nor this one either, I am told I look exactly like my picture and they seem pleased with that

7: The statement: "You're so articulate".

All the time, this is one of many things men say (in my opinion)  to most providers.

6. The statement: "You are really clean"

Haven't really heard this one either

5. The question: "Why is your rate so high?"

If I had a penny every time I heard this one I would be a billionaire.  In my opinion any man who asks this, you should not see them.  It shows they have no class, if they don't like your rates tell them to find someone else.  I do.

4. Assuming I am a DOMINATRIX (or Kinky) because I am black.

Don't know much about this.

3. Assuming I do DRUGS just because I am black.

Not because you are black, because you are a provider.  I have heard it too and I have never done a drug other than alcohol.  They seem to be surprised by the fact that I have had no inclination to do drugs.

2. Assuming I have children.

Another not because you are black but because you are a provider.

1. Assuming that just because I am doing this I cannot do anything else.

See post above.

As a white gentleman, I seek out beautiful women to have a good time with. Most of the women I have had the pleasure of meeting and spending a little time with, are black women.

I prefer women that have a GOOD  attitude that enhances their natural outer beauty.

Intelligence is a major factor, not neccasarily book smarts, but common sense, respect, and ability to carry on a conversation.

OK, I don't claim to speak for all white people (actually, I couldn't even if I wanted to. I'm Latino, but I consider myself fully assimilated) but I'm equally rude to all escorts, regardless of ethnicity

Seriously, why do you assume that because someone asks you to justify your rate, it's because of your race? People on this board question providers all the time about their rates. And many people rush to the providers' defense. But  no one has ever used the reason "Oh, well, she's white. Of course her rates are higher".

Same for encountering surprise at your attractiveness. Why assume that it's linked to your race? A pretty face is a pretty face. It doesn't have to be a certain color or take one particular form. But I've run into enough false advertising, obscured faces, touched up photos and disappointments when meeting in person, that often I am indeed surprised to encounter someone who's genuinely pretty. It doesn't occur to me that a person might actually be offended, of all things, when I tell her she's pretty, even if I fail to hide my surprise. And again, let me say it plainly, it has nothing to do with race.

I don't mean to diminish the effect of whatever discrimination you may have encountered, both in or out of this career you've chosen, but while I'm certain you've been affected by it, not everything that happens to you is a result of your race.

cardinal

-- Modified on 10/24/2002 1:03:17 AM

I don't know if your 60% whites statistic is correct. I feel you should point out that David Duke's opponent was Edwin Edwards, the former governor who was CONVICTED in federal court of taking bribes (his son was also convicted) WHILE PREVIOUSLY IN OFFICE!!!

Edwards campaign slogan was "hold your nose and vote for me".  Hey, David Duke is no doubt a proven racist and an asshole - no argument.  But don't cast racist dispersions on your "60% of whites" category without the full story.  

On this point, you are at best uninformed.  At worst, you are a race-baiter who wrongly classifies the majority of white people as nigger-haters.  If the latter is true (and I hope it isn't),  you are no better than those insufferable KKK idiots.

Truth and Peace to those who can handle both.  JC

I think the frustrations that you list are felt by many providers, both black and white. The comments you list are based on stereotypes that some men have of providers in general. I'm not discounting the possibility that the comments may ALSO be racially motivated, but just keep in mind that many of them may not be. Unfortunately it's damn near impossible to know for sure.

Career suicide? Doubtful. There's nothing wrong with airing your concerns, especially here.


-- Modified on 10/24/2002 6:57:29 AM

Bill Gates dropped out of college to start Microsoft.

It doesn't have to do with race.  There are many ladies claiming to be porn stars when they haven't made any videos.  There are also ladies who will make a couple of videos so they can use the porn star title to increase rates to those of the "true" porn stars.  If you read the porn star board, I recently made mention of a "porn star" who really hasn't made many videos but how the agencies and reviewers hype the girl to increase their bookings and rate.  By the way, she is caucasion because that seems to be of primary importance on your outlook.

As regards to what is a porn star, we could debate that to no end.  First off, nobody can be considered a porn star if they haven't made a commercially released video.  There are plenty of escorts now claiming to be a PSE and they have never made a video.  By the way, a web cam clip doesn't qualify.  You then have levels of porn stars just like in mainstream movies.  You have mega porn stars like Jenna, maybe Tera Patrick and Ginger Lynn in the past.  Their popularity, especially Jenna's, extends beyond porn.  You then have porn stars which are very popular, have a large fan base and are usually contract girls with various video companies; and yes they are of all races.  You then have the thousands of adult video performers who have made some videos but just achieved a real large fan base and popularity.

I sense a good bit of bitterness in your posts and I think you should address your own issues before you start calling others racists.

So are you suggesting that it is better to vote for a former KKK leader than for someone who, like many politicans, has been found guilty of a non violent crime? Or to vote for a an acknowledged "proven racist and an asshole" versus deciding that NEITHER candidate deserved your vote?

Insofar as my 60% number being correct, I would not claim it was precise, but my memory serves that the percentage was actually HIGHER. Since I didn't have a precise numner, I elected to only demonstrate that it was the majority.

Now, insofar as the need to actually USE the word "nigger" in your post...without even a "*" or a "@" to indicate some sensitivity, I'll just leave that to stand on its own and speak for you...

It was originally came about to denote a porn star escort who provided the typical GFE acronyms; namely DFK, BBBJ, CFS etc.  Unfortunately, escorts seeing the rates the actual porn stars were commanding have tried to use the PSE acronym.  The PSE acronym only refers to porn stars.  If you haven't done hardcore on commercially released film or video the PSE acronym is not applicable.  Although I am sure escorts will continue to try and market with this acronym to try and increase the rates the command.  It is for this reason why many ladies "porn star status" is questioned.  It doesn't have to do with race.

"8: Tired of hearing the statement: "WOW, You're really pretty!” "

This is kind of a BS complaint, and while your other complaints have merit, this makes you sound like a little whiny baby.

When guys say you are pretty, it's a compliment. Sometimes, it's because they are used to pictures being fake. Sometimes, it's because your pictures may have looked nice, but in person you are even more fantastic. But most times, it's because the guy may not know what else to say, and he wants to be nice and let you know he is having a good time. You know, when you are on a date, women expect you to notice they put a lot of work into looking nice for you, and you should aknowlege it. We think the same is true with a provider. So you should smile, appreciate it, and take this complaint off your list

All the darned time. Anytime someone who is a PSE or has a higher rate, posts and announces a visit, I see flames resulting and insinuating things like "How dare you think you're worth that much?" Doesn't seem to matter much if the provider is white, black, or other, what seems to matter is the bitterness of the guys who cannot afford her.

Hugs*
Nicole

I wish I could tell you how many times I've seen threads on *other boards* that were essentially flames of a white PSE for charging the rates she does.  It ALWAYS ticks me off to the n'th degree because I really believe that if you can't afford those rates or just don't want to pay them... then DON'T! What is the point of the flames?  Gosh there was just recently a huge flame of Nina Hartley calling her "old and shriveled up," and essentially saying how DARE she charge $1600 an hour at her age! (I kinda lost it on that one. *sigh*)

Anyways... I am not saying that you have not experienced prejudice, that would be a crock if I were to say that!  But I do agree with some of the other posters that part of what you are feeling has to do with the 'biz you are in, and NOT the color of your skin. I often have gentlemen who are *surprised* that I am as intelligent as I am, as pretty as I am, as bright, as clean, as ________, whatever, fill in the blank.  There are definitely stereotypes about this industry and some of them have reasons for existing. I mean look at the average image of *us* that is portrayed by the media, and you will see some skanky, dirty, crack ho' giving $5 BJ's in the gutter!  

So I definitely think some of that has more to do with the industry as a whole, than with the color of your skin. Now again I would NOT say that you have never experienced prejudice... but many of us experience levels of prejudice for *what we are doing* vs *what we look like* as well.  Heaven forbid we could actually... *gasp*... ENJOY our job!

Hugs*
Nicole

Although I agree with most of your assertions, and do indeed see that our society has a lot of problems ...

... I would caution you, that you are coming across as though you have an axe to grind. Instead of giving me the feeling that you're a happy person who has some common sense, your diction and style (and the issues you choose to bring up, and the specifics you use to bring them up) suggests to me (and no, I can't prove it) that you would be a pain in the ass at your typical supper club meeting. Everything would have to do with race this, race that, race the other.

Sure, America's a racist land. Just about every middle-class African-American I know reminds me of that fact about seventeen times a day. I'm sick of hearing about it, particularly since (a) most middle-class African-Americans I know, are bigoted about Jews; (b) I've experienced racism at the hands of other groups in other locations and know that nowhere on the planet is "free" of prejudice; (c) I am convinced that most people who take offense, find something to take offense at because they're looking for it. Leave the old resentments behind, even IF there's consistently legitimate further cause for more resentment. It gives you a better life, to live free of regrets and resentments. And I'm tired of being told I live in a racist land, quite frankly. There's greater economic and political opportunity for members of all races here in the USA, than ANYWHERE ELSE ON THE PLANET. Complain too much, you might be asked to put your feet where your mouth is.

Suggestion: try living in Bogota and being Jewish; or Kuala Lumpur and being White; or New Delhi and being of the untouchable caste; or Frankfurt and being Turkish; or Moscow and being Black.

Geez, get over yourself. We all have burdens to bear. My burden personally isn't about race (although it was about bigotry, when I was an American in Canada) but I have other burdens I regret to share with thse boards. I do sometimes air my own grievances on these boards, but I try to keep it in the name of "figuring out a solution in order to live a better life" rather than "lambasting the current situation" AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.

Everyone's a victim.

Now, personally, I haven't really contributed to the porn-star link. I don't want to get into the middle of that morass. There's just a lot of people with a lot of axes to grind. The tone of the original post was a joke of deliberate flaming, and the subsequent responses are only sometimes balanced. Why add fuel to the fire?

My take on the whole "porn star" thing, is that a lot more women than are "legitimate porn stars" claim to be porn stars. Recently in my home town there were some "porn stars" turning tricks in the back rooms of seedy illegal strip clubs. Anyone who's GENUINELY a "star" of ANY sort, wouldn't have to stoop to that type of providing, right? So, they CLAIM to be "porn star" and I'm skeptical of ANY claim to that status, whether made by a black or a white woman.

I personally REALLY dislike misleading advertising, especially in the hobby profession, because there's not much else to go on the basis of, except reputation. When someone appears to be trying to present a false reputation ("Voted Best in Ten States!") I am doubly annoyed: first because I suspect it's false and therefore don't want to patronize a liar; but second (and this is the important part) because it calls into question the actual discretion and honesty of the entire medium. In rhetoric, we call that "poisoning the well." It is parallel to an _ad_ _hominem_ attack, except it's not an attack, it's a support instead. But it fails to speak to issues, and instead speaks to "personalities" and "integrity" and other nebulous concepts, and therefore is neither provable nor disprovable. Thus, it entirely short-circuits the possibility for civilized debate and / or the passing on of free, legitimate information. It calls into question the very nature of information, and forces the conversation into a more flame-oriented level. So, the whole "I'm a porn star" reputation thing is the BEGINNING of the problem, and not just a neutral act which then happened to bring up a problem only when someone ELSE mentioned race.

Therefore, to me, the problem with that whole discussion was that someone claimed, "I'm a porn star." Most women who say they are, aren't. "Real" porn stars have had several major video releases by large-distribution companies, like Vivid or Paul Thomas or some such. I don't know all the specifics. Victoria Paris was a porn star, Kylie Ireland is a porn star, Julie-boolie of West Marhoolie is NOT a porn star, even IF she's done two amateur videos that you can order from somewhere on the web. And Julie-boolie is trouble whether OR NOT she's black.

So, in closing, I don't think the guy who dissed Ayana (or whoever it was) even CONSIDERED her race, he considered her to be a liar of any color. And I DO think that whoever leapt to her defense strictly on the basis of her race -- presuming that it was racial bigotry that led men to question her claims to stardom, when actually it was common sense -- are more bigoted than the rest of us, because they see everything in terms of divided racial camps.

My personal experience has consistently been, that the American Northern White is the most anti-Black human on the planet, and the American Northern Black is the most anti-Everything-But-Black human on the planet and also the most pro-Black human on the planet (which is, in itself, another form of bigotry: "pride" is a "sin," remember). I'm proud to say I'm a member of neither group, and do my best not to be anti-Anyone, or pro-Anyone either, except on the basis of individual merits and demerits.

Heck, I do's my bests. Sometimes I falter. But the errors don't follow consistent racial lines. I don't have an axe to grind.


-- Modified on 10/25/2002 8:16:28 PM

PSE means porn star experience; i.e. she gives you an experience just like what you see on tape (or dvd).  You may very well see an actual Porn Star who escorts and not get a PSE.

Think about your definition; if what you said was true, then I could only have a GFE with my girlfriend.

-- Modified on 10/27/2002 1:57:30 PM

Yes, you can see an actual porn star but not receive a PSE.  There are many porn stars who do not provide a PSE.  Believe me word gets around pretty quick through the backchannel porn star boards of what ladies provide a PSE.  However, the PSE term is a few years old and came about to only apply to porn stars.  It basically had the same acronyms as the GFE (DFK, BBBJ, CFS etc.) but they were provided by a porn star.  The GFE was the highest level of service from an escort and the PSE became the highest level from a porn star escort.  The regular escorts saw the rates the porn girls were getting and began to market using the PSE acronym in hopes of boosting their rates.  You now see the PSE acronym being thrown around everywhere.  However, any hobbyist involved in seeing PSE knows it only refers to actual porn stars!  This is the reason for this entire thread.  A poster on the porn star board called into question the status of an escort; a very common question on the porn star boards.  Unfortunately, the escort who started this thread assumed it was racially motivated; hence the racial threads here on the general board.

-- Modified on 10/27/2002 5:44:25 PM

IF your post is career suicide, then let me articulate my simple thought to you, Sable: you seemed "dead on" to me. I don't walk in your shoes and can't know...until you tell it like it is. Thanks for giving me a clue.
Fly