Flora,
Your final note here just struck me as being so sad. I find it sad that it is so hard sometimes to find the simple yet often very elusive companionship most of us crave. I also find it sad that in the real world there are so many people who can’t or won’t show respect, understanding, compassion, appreciation, passion or consideration for someone else. Maybe, that’s what is at the core (for some us) of WHY we get into this hobby. Seeking to fill these needs, even if it is for just a short period of time, with someone else. Yes, it is often an act and we KNOW it’s an act, but for that brief time we can “willingly suspend our disbelief” and live in that moment. We can share the good things and leave the bad outside that door. Perhaps that is why the experience in this realm can be so different. By the very nature of this experience, the planning, the anticipation and yes, the exchange of monetary consideration, makes us concentrate on doing it “right” and getting the most out of the experience that we can. So I guess I agree that sometimes we just have to accept what we have, appreciate it and hope we each will “find all that your heart desires”.
Whew - hope that’s not too heavy…
C_K
-- Modified on 6/4/2008 6:28:09 PM
Ill be honest, I know how to be, act, feel towards a client and Im actually 100% myself, and natural and I feel totaly comfortable being at someones beck-n-call and then not bugging or contacting them afterward the meeting, just doing my thing (life) and then its really "cool" if they call again another time. And when they are with me, I am however they need me to be: submissive, or a bit dominating, or on the same wavelength. I can talk if they want, or I can shut up if they want, I watch what I say and do, and am all they want me to be.
However...
I havnt a damn clue when it comes to "Civie" dating. Like, should I sleep with him on the first date? How far is too far? What about the day after the date? Do I call him, wait for his call?
Basically, I just had a date last night and It felt like an appointment, except I was getting less respect then I would from a client. He told me to come to his place on our first date (just like doing an outcall)! He didnt offer me dinner, when I mentioned I was starving, and even told me to bring my own drink, he told me to dress up and not where casual clothes over (so he had a clothing request just like a client would), and I made it very clear to him that I expected him to be a gentleman and not try making a move on me. But guess what?? He did made a move and then I found myself going too far with him. Now, the day after, he does not contact me, and I am expected not to contact him.
SO, Im very confused here, about whats typical ettiquette on a date with a girl not in the business. Because I want to date and find a boyfriend, but I find myself on dates that feel and flow like an appomitment, or Im treated with less respect then I would be in a real appointment. And the man I dated expects the same as a client would, and also expects me to just walk away after and not contact him.
If Im going to date, I guess I expect that I can call the man. I can be myself, whether its a good or bad mood, I can dress how I please, and well, I guess get something better from the man then I would from my clients.
I dont know, so far my clients have treated me far better then any casual dating has. Any advice is appreciated, but at this point, i think Im much happier treating my clients like princes. They show me far more respect then any date has so far. I asked my date last night to cover my taxi. He seemed annoyed. But seeing how I normally get $$$ for ........ I thought $5 towards my taxi wasnt too much to ask!
-- Modified on 6/3/2008 2:11:33 AM
If you bring that, and you are with the right person, you won't need to ask anything else.
You aren't comparing apples to apples with your post. Of course paying clients are mostly going to treat you better...because they have a specific, immediate goal that you are obliged to provide if they are respectful, and they don't have to worry about anything else. They can be honest and up front, and many civvies (male and female) are dishonest. Additionally, you are asking people who mostly are soured on relationships how to act when trying to have one.
Stop worrying about "etiquette" on a date, focus on communicating and being honest and being true to yourself, don't worry about going through a few losers to find someone decent, and if it is right, the answers will find you.
You have not told us the age range of your clients nor the age of Mr. NoManners.
Given your hourly rate, I would guess most of your clients are financially secure men well over age 30.
To those of us who grew up when TV was black and white, the younger generations have a noticeable lack of manners.
In addition: Having grown up in the midwest and then spending 4 years at college on the east coast, I found many New Yorkers to be especially lacking in manners.
If you are trying to date guys in your age range, you may have to experience the proverbial numerous frogs before you find a prince.
Id date older I dont mind what the age is, but this has been the range that Ive dated since Ive been back in America. When I lived in Europe, I never had a problem just jumping into a relationship. It worked like this: You spot someone who you're attracted to, they return your gaze, and its confirmed that the attraction is mutual. So then you chat, and most likely you mate like monkeys on the first day! Then the next day you text back and forth all kinds of flirty dirty things, and meet that night again for a wild romp, then it just continues like that day after day, and then you say to each other after 2 weeks, "you are my boyfriend and Im your girlfriend, cool". But it seems so complicated here in America. People dont seem to make eye contact with each other. That was a very important factor in my experience, of knowing the measure of attraction that the other felt for me. If it was strong, it seemed anything could happend after that and I wouldnt be a fool for it. But noone makes eye contact here, it seems. So you're in a conversation, and the man is looking all over the place, and Im thinking he is more interested in the wall then me, and then all of a sudden he lunges at me and swallows up my tounge, and I think "cool, so he likes me, Im going to enjoy this kiss" but before i finish the thought, he is opening up my blouse..... and its all familiar like back in europe, the way i did things, until the next day.... and he acts offended that I text him and say "Good morning gorgous, im hot for you baby, looking forward to your kisses". Oops, i broke the rule, I was suppossed to wait for him to contact me first??? So Im assuming should've played a game thats beyond my understanding, and that game is "women doesnt contact man, but rather waits for man to contact her...maybe". And then... um... how about the day after that? olala, seems complicated 
-- Modified on 6/3/2008 12:08:32 AM
Dating has all sorts of unspoken rules that just suck and they suck even more if the guy is a player, if he knows how hot he is and tries to exploit this, if he's not really looking for a relationship but just to use a girl and move on... it's difficult. I just go with the flow and am true to what I want when I meet a guy and have clear boundaries that I don't just cross bc he's a pretty face. You'll have to figure out your own boundaries, but in the meantime, good luck.
Katie
To hell with "rules". Do what feels right to you. If it breaks some stupid rule, so what. If it chases the guy away then he wasn't the right one for you. The next one may like the text message and respond accordingly.
But I have to agree that you can't let them treat you like shit. That's no way to live.
an escort's "civie" date! Where is the line drawn as to who pays and who doesn't. The reason I ask you, is because it is a question I've asked of a good friend, who I see quite a bit, who has the same problem. Now, I would be MORE than happy to grab her up, get her out of the biz, and make her a queen......But I'm not a millionaire...so that ain't gonna happen. But the guy she has been dating as a "civie" is 13 years younger than she is, has NO job, and just lost his license with a DUI! He calls her when he's horney...she goes and picks him up, takes him back and he spends the night....she also pics up bar and food tabs in the 100's for him. WHAT A DEAL! So I asked...since you would never consider a professional date with a clown like this...what's the attraction...The answer....He's cute! DUH!!! I know some others who are also struggling with "civie" dating! Basically the same problem. They all want to meet prince charming, and live happily ever after (and be wealthy)...but they seem to aim way low of the bullseye! So all of this leads to......
Why are you getting treated like this? Why do you go back? Was there something more than superficial looks that attracted you to him in the first place? I really think what happens to professional ladies is that they spend so much time with guys that they wouldn't give a second look to outside the biz....that they lose all vision of WHO a person is...and not just what he looks like! So they end up in crappy relationships with total a'holes...then cant figure out the problem.
There isn't any real ettiquette to dating...it should come naturally. Don't spend time looking for "respect"...look for companionship, and friendship. It will feel right, with the right guy...but don't do as many do, and keep chasing a loser thinking it will get better...It WON'T!
Thats true of all women. They want prince charming and prince charming is always good looking, hung, probably muscles, and money is a plus. Look women think completely different than men, when we call a provider thats our ultimate fantasy. A complete stranger knocks on the door, is a knockout, gets naked, we fuck, they leave. That's every man's fantasy.
Women have completely different fantasies that invlolve being swept away. So you have to become prince charming to date outside of hobbying.
You're generalizing and that's not doing anyone a favor in understanding women's dating choices...
Cases to dispute your prince charming theory:
My sisters- both married very average guys with decent jobs (but not wealthy.) They are both knockouts but their husbands are not.
My best friend is in love with an average looking guy who is just very artsy and intellectual. He has never seen the inside of the gym and he's not what you'd call handsome.
One of my close friends just married a guy who is about 100 lbs. overweight, but he's really nice. She looks like a model. He obviously doesn't. He also is poor, but she loves him and he adores her more than life itself.
To be honest, the majority of women that I know don't go for guys who are the hottest, richest, etc... they go for someone that they can be with long term, who is often not as hot and is sort of a fixer- upper. They're traditionally guys that sort of grow on you and you think gee, he's such a nice guy.
The girls who hunt guys down in LA for their cash are gold diggers (who don't care what you look like. They just want you to pay their bills.)
There may be some swept away fantasy, but it is not exactly as you picture it. It's different for every lady and these generalizations aren't going to help to understand the reasons women choose men who don't fit the model you'd assume they're looking for...
Katie
Providers? We are talking about providers unable to cope or deal with "civie" dating! Another problem this lady had is all through her post, she compares her "civie" date to the hobby. None of that is going to fit, and if she can't divorce her self from her profession, she never will have a decent date...the 2 worlds DO NOT coexist!
As for what I said about providers I know who have the same type problem....EVERY one went for looks....AND younger! All are miserable...but keep hanging in there...thinking it's will be better next time!.....like a battered housewife who keeps going back, because the entire time she is getting hit..he tells her he loves her!
As far as what I ASSUME they are looking for...I know what they are looking for...I know the guys they have chosen as their soul mates. That story from my original post was NOT made up! The guys are always quite a bit younger, and looks got them the rest of the way into the door. Are all of the ladies you are talking about providers? I think not! The Young , hot guy, and the older Milf fantasy lives on for both sides.....problem is...in these cases the guy is living the dream, the lady is ready to scream!
Alot of us just have gotten used to ultimate respect, great confidence, independance, willpower, lots of lust, no game playing, upfrontness, and we know what we will do to make a man happy. We learn to overcome the "YMMV Dilemna" and show consistancy to every man we meet. Maybe this numbs us, maybe learning to treat every man equally, nuetralizes us a bit. But how can you say it's a problem to compare a civie date to a hobby date? In the 2 years Ive provided, the majority of appointments have been with great guys who showed me ultimate kindness and respect. So with all these great men who have showed me that being a provider builds my confidence, lust and passion, respect for others and myself, patience, understanding, affection to and fro, and a nice balance of submission and domination, ect... of course im going to compare it to a civie date, when I am giving lots of hours of my time, my charm, and my body, and yet Im treated with so little respect, and to sum it up, my hobby dates are more respectful and understandable then the civie dates. So how can I get a civie date to treat me as good as my hobby dates? Thats what i want to know.
On another note, I will say that not all providers are happy providing. They might do it out of neccessity, and its quite possible that some will choose abusive or nasty boyfriends who will make them feel bad about themselves, and its a kind of punishment to themselves for what they do. And there is also the possibility that some girls are into self-sabotage. I know alot of people, not just women, who do something destructive when things are too good for them. They just cant handle all the positive things around them, and the rainbow fairyland annoys them, and so they choose self-destructive circumstances to balance themselves out in some way (only they could explain why...). Maybe these girls you describe fit this description, but certainly alot of us are not wanting to be abused or disrespected. Rather, we are looking for all the greatness that we're shown by our clients, and in addition, a real relationship with one man too, having someone by our side, and be our soulmate...
But what you mentioned is not what my post is about. Im not looking to get with some young gorgous guy who treats me like shit. The point of my post, was to ask what a man, any man (any age, race, appearance) would expect from a women on a first date. I made it clear that I dont want to be disrespected or treated poorly. I said that I want to be treated good. I didnt even mention my date's looks, and if he was good looking or not. I just mentioned the lack of eye contact, and details of the date.
-- Modified on 6/4/2008 2:34:34 AM
-- Modified on 6/4/2008 2:39:01 AM
Quit trying to date while still a provider! It only screws things up, and VERY FEW guys are REALLY comfortable with a GF who is NOT giving 100%. You want a guy who treats you like your clients...your BF wants to be your ONLY client!
It is NOT a good mix. The other thing is, you talk about how well your clients treat you...yet if one of them happened to go apeshit over you he would NEVER be considered for a boyfriend, or civie date! The reason most often used "I don't want to date someone I met like this"! WHY??? If there is a chemistry who cares how you met?
This discussion is pointless, as you asked for an answer but are not going to pay attention until the one that agrees with you is given!
Quit looking for love with 1 guy, until you are ready to stop seeing the rest!
there are many women that despite their status as providers are lonely for true intimacy and companionship. Why begrudge her the opportunity to find something stable outside of the hobby like that?
Yes, she may provide, but she can still have a happy and healthy relationship to help her feel fulfilled.
As for the hobbyist turned boyfriend scenario, there's only 1 I've ever heard about working out. Usually the ones I hear about fail miserably and then there's bad blood on the boards and talk around town about the 2 of them. Too much drama...
Katie
Providers are still women, we still have civvie lives that you know nothing about. The foibles of dating is not exclusive to a provider.
Yes, she is a provider, but her post resembles many of my civvie friends' dilemmas. Flora is relating it back to providing because it gives you a point of reference and it gives her something to compare the guy to. It is as much a compliment to the men she sees as it is a condemnation of the civvie man who didn't treat her well.
You can't sit here and say that providers can't rationalize the 2 worlds because for me, it's quite easy to do so. I am a woman, a student, an occasional provider and I wear many hats in many situations. Flora is in much the same situation. She is still a woman and she is still a woman trying to find love who got knocked down by pinning her hopes on the wrong guy. You just don't get it, though and I imagine you never will.
Katie
Let's break it down...
He had you come to him (you don't deliver,) he asked you to bring your own drinks, to dress casually... he wasn't going to put much effort into it. He just wanted to get laid and was going to put minimal effort into it. He won't call you until a late booty call in a week or 2, maybe a month unless he finds another girl who will make him work harder for it. I can usually sniff these things out. I'm betting he's in his 20's, maybe even as old as mid- 30's. That's the m.o. of many guys out here in L.A. in this age bracket.
I'm sorry, though. That sucks. Yes, we get so used to being spoiled and treated like goddesses that unfortunately, some civvies don't measure up. Personally, I'm much more reserved with civvie dates. It took me a month to sleep with my last bf and it was only after he'd put in the work and treated me like a lady.
Katie
Civvie dates...in comparison to hobby dates? These can go anywhere, and can end badly. At least hobby dates usually go and end well, since there are expectations on both sides that we both understand, and both sides can usually fulfill or at least try to...
CD
ask the question on "The Erotic Highway" board. LG is pretty good about answering questions of the heart.
I'm too old, on the wrong coast, and of the wrong sex to have much to say to help. Other than the obvious, "Keep looking until you find a guy you can be yourself with and don't take the kind of shit you describe in your post."
And when you do find a guy you like and who likes you, you then have to decide whether or not to tell him you escort. Relationships have foundered on that particular rock too.
from what it sounds, this guys a prick. i'm not exactly sure of the circumstances and why you even went to see him. but everything about your date sounds completely messed up. bring your own drinks, wtf?!?!?! you don't even tell that to your friends when inviting them over let alone a date. please don't waste your time on this person and look for someone else...
On another note, why don't you move to Washington DC. I'll make an excellent boy friend and always look you straight in the eyes 
It's been a long time since I was on a civie date... but a guy who wants to show he cares would have some beverage available, some food available (or plans to get some) & would not have ignored YOUR NEEDS. He's treating you like you're despirate which I hope you are not. YOU provided everything... for free... and he treated you like sh*t. Call him?? I think not. Dump the freeloader.
Civie dates might not be rich... but they should be gentlemen at all times & considerate of your needs. Nothing wrong with a burger around the corner if that's what can be afforded. Expenses can be shared but not normally on the first date. If they are shared, then he picks up half or more!
skb
BTW, How could you even think of sex if you were hungery? (The other basic instinct)
mmmh what to say,
I will tell you there are 2 schools of thought out there in civie dating. One is the old fashioned man is a gentleman, pays for everything, does everything. If you saw the movies Singles, there were all these rules about who called and when.
There is a new thought out there that some pickup gurus are pushing which for lack of a better term can be called VAC. Stands for Value Attainability Compliance. Under this thought the man shows their value to the woman by means other than money, that they are indeed attainable to the woman, and finally the woman is asked to show compliance in some form or fashion by doing something for the man.
That sounds in a lot of ways like the scenario you were under in that you went to his place, dressed as he asked, he didn't really provide you anything of monetary value (food, drink, gift, etc), was intimate with you in some fashion undescribed and then you left. The fact he was unwilling to pay cab fare goes along with that. And under that scenario, he wouldn't be expected to call you. You are expected to call, you will be rewarded in some form or fashion when you do call but you are expected to call. Even old school guys might not call you for 3 days after the first date (considered too needy).
That sounds like what happened to you. I understand it is pretty prevalent in NYC so if that is where you are, you may run into that.
As said earlier, clients tend to act differently. We pay upfront, we treat you nicely because we wanted to be treated nicely. Because there is money involved the dynamic is simply different and you can't really expect client behavior from someone who hasn't paid you upfront and has money and an objective at risk.
That being said there are lots of nice guys out there to click with. The approach schools tell you, you have to interact with a 100 women to sleep with 3. I don't know what the odds are for women meeting quality guys but I suspect it is at least half. I think that is why a lot of us see providers. It is a lot less hassle than chasing civilians. Besides you can chase civilians and still have an ATF.
You have the benefit of clients who love you dearly and treat you nicely and then you can still go chase civilians yourself.
Happy hunting!
He wanted an escort but did not want to pay. As an older gent, guessing he was in his 20's (I'm way past that out of the range of the clients you have seen, 61), I would never have treated a civie date like that. One thing you didn't mention in your post was whether or not he knows about you being an escort. That knowledge, if he knows, probably had an impact on his behavior.
To answer some of your questions, no, you don't have to sleep with him on the first date, unless you really want to. Sometimes a little DFK or body-exploring can be even too far for the first date. Only you can determine that, whatever feels comfortable to you. The day after, an email might be less forward than a call, letting him know you enjoyed the date. In today's dating world, it is not uncommon for the lady to make after-date contact rather than waiting for the man.
Dating etiquette is quite different in the civie world. However, I don't think you did anything wrong, HE DID! You would be doing yourself if you write him off as a future bf, and definitely do not contact him. It's pretty obvious to me that he used you for whatever he could get, and now has no further use for you since you are not to contact him. Fortunately, all guys out there are not like him, even the young ones. Hopefully, you will find the one for you some day.
You might want to just go back to your escorting for a while to give yourself time to forget that asshole, and be with some men who treat you right. Don't go looking for a bf, it will happen when it's right. Looking for someone only gets frustrating when you can't seem to find them.
I am sorry that you had a bad civie dating experience, but maybe you learned a little along the way. I hope all this helps.
Good luck, Flora.
Swim
I deleted the rest to be kind. eom
-- Modified on 6/3/2008 7:50:01 PM
Flora,
You should expect on a civvie date nothing less than the respect and courtesy you seem to receive from your clients. I mean, that's a basic - if he is rude, self-involved or otherwise offensive, as a civvie you tell him no thanks, I look for some one else.
You're in a tough position, if you're like the providers I've met - you actually love sex, that's part of your inner self or whatever. But that doesn't mean you need to sleep with an abusive civvie date (or boyfriend).
He's got to respect your gift, your talents - because you love sex, you might be tempted to sleep with him on the first date. But please, please DO NOT sleep with him unless the is some true spark, some reason beyond sex to want to be with him.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
A good question would be, what do you expect or want from a civie date? This guy had you out of your center of control, and perhaps your comfort zone; you doing everything on his terms. I once heard someone say that the definition of mental health is where one has the capacity to be in a mutually beneficial relationship. That means that there is a reciprocity when it comes to each persons needs being met. Some people want things all their way and they attempt to control the other by making them feel bad (insecure, guilty, ashamed, etc.) about themselves. This increases one's adrenalin and inhibits their ability to think clearly. Think about what they want and need. Think about how they are feeling. Think about how they are being treated; disrespectfully, abusively, without caring or compassion. Also, when you are busy taking care of another person's needs, in order for them to not make you feel bad about yourself, you are neglecting your needs. AA has a great acronym called HALT. Never get too hunger, too angry, too lonely or too tired. When any one of those things happen you are out of your center of control, your adrenalin level gets high and once again you can no longer think of all those things I mentioned above.
So, you want to date? Know what you want. Keep your center. Take no disrespect. And, I wish for you good results.
I think you want to ask the question as "What's expected of a woman in a Civie date from a guy she would actually be interested in dating?" All the signs were wrong with this guy. He didn't treat you well from the beginning. Sounds like he didn't give a shit about you. That can never end well. You should have bailed early and told him to piss off.
A decent guy will treat you with an acceptable amount of respect and courtesy, like you would treat a friend. A guy who treats you like this will expect the same from you. I think you would then be expected to be pleasant company, be reasonably agreeable, and be yourself. If it works out, great; if it doesn't, that's life. On to the next one.
Sex on a first date is tricky, though. Some do, some don't. Others may disagree, but my opinion is that you would be better off seeing if you get a second date to find out if the guy is just really looking for free escorting service.
-- Modified on 6/4/2008 6:31:14 PM
It was great to hear all the words of wisdom, and thoughts on this subject. I also appreciated the encouraging words far more then you can ever imagine. There was one handle here that didnt quite get the point, but even so, I did ask for your opinions, and it was nice to hear all opinions on the subject of civie dating. I think my conclusion, is that I will not civie date. The respect shown to me from my clients far outweighs anything Ive experienced in the other "realms". I prefer to put all my attention and affection towards those who appreciate it. A wise man once said to me "Love the ones you're with". And that will be my focus. Not to find civie dates or a particuliar companion, but rather pour out all my goodness to those who visit me, bringing their good manners, warm hearts, positive attitudes, respect in various forms, and ultimate passion. This is what Im looking for, and this is what this lucky women has gotten from so many good men. Its just that sometimes I wish to have someone to fall asleep with at night, spoon into, and look into their eyes in the morning, feeling secure and sure that they want to stay and tend the fire we started. But there's no sense in looking for that now, and no time to go thru a hundred bad civie dates to find exactly what I described... it makes much more sense to appreciate and be content with what I have now. I think Im a very lucky girl.
Thankyou again for your thoughts and I also hope that all of you will find all that your heart desires.
x flora
-- Modified on 6/4/2008 12:37:20 PM
Flora,
Your final note here just struck me as being so sad. I find it sad that it is so hard sometimes to find the simple yet often very elusive companionship most of us crave. I also find it sad that in the real world there are so many people who can’t or won’t show respect, understanding, compassion, appreciation, passion or consideration for someone else. Maybe, that’s what is at the core (for some us) of WHY we get into this hobby. Seeking to fill these needs, even if it is for just a short period of time, with someone else. Yes, it is often an act and we KNOW it’s an act, but for that brief time we can “willingly suspend our disbelief” and live in that moment. We can share the good things and leave the bad outside that door. Perhaps that is why the experience in this realm can be so different. By the very nature of this experience, the planning, the anticipation and yes, the exchange of monetary consideration, makes us concentrate on doing it “right” and getting the most out of the experience that we can. So I guess I agree that sometimes we just have to accept what we have, appreciate it and hope we each will “find all that your heart desires”.
Whew - hope that’s not too heavy…
C_K
-- Modified on 6/4/2008 6:28:09 PM
Lovely words. But please dont think that all women are acting when they are with a client. I never act, unless its a roleplay scenario, where I play the secretary or teacher or... But when I am being myself with a lover, and we are pleasing each other physically, or communicating about life, and connecting in a wonderful way, this is not an act. We all have stress during the day, and look forward to those moments when we can relax and find pleasure. Why would we bother to act when we've gone out of our way to seek this oasis? We dive into the cool refreshing waters, and soak in the healing qualities, pampering treatment, appreciating that we are being listened to and adored.
Everything you said was "spot on" but please dont think that it is an act. I do believe that most of us are genuine and truely love being with each other.
Oh I do realize that for many it's not an act, that there are many lovely women providers out there who do share with us gentlemen a lot of who and what they are and how they feel. That's what helps make the experience so special and fulfilling. Those times where 2 people share a connection, however brief it may be, that fills those needs, mental and physical. That's what makes it a GFE and not just sexual release. It's what separates the escort from the street corner prostitute. At least that’s how I think of it.
Uh oh, there I go again.... getting all philosophical. Must be the rain here in the east ...
And thanks for the compliment on my musings …
C_K