My god people, we're tearing each other apart here. What the hell is happening to us?? I can understand that we are all under a higher level of stress lately due to the obvious, but it seems that everything that is said lately sparks it's own little war of sorts, no matter who says it.

In the grand scheme of things, i know that we that read this board and enjoy it so much(usually anyway) comprise just a minuscule microcosim of society as a whole, but i would hope that there is still a relatively good cross section of people here. That being said, if it's happening here, want's going to start happening on the streets soon??? It kinda makes you wonder alittle before stepping out the door in the morning.

I do support our men and women in all military branches. Not because i do or don't feel any particular way about Iraq. How i feel doesn't come into play. I support them because they deserve it. It's the least i can do for the people that go to places i hope never to have to go and do the things things i hope never to have to do so that i may sit here and write this. Right or wrong has little to do with it to me, they get my neverending support because they chose to give there life for me if that's what it takes. That's all i'm going to say on the issue, and i only said that much to clarify that one thing for everyone who reads this.

Perhaps we could all try to reel ourselves back in alittle, or check our thoughts on certain things at the door alittle more and get back to the basics of what we are all here for in the first place?

While i don't post often, i do very much enjoy my time digging thru the site as a whole. But lately it has become it seems to remind me more of Jerry Springer out takes then The Erotic Review.

Yes,yes, i know......General Discussion should be just that, and maybe if the issues at hand were alot more cut and dried, it would be. We do all have the right to say what we wish, just as i am now. It seems lately that we are being hit with a lack of credible information while at the same time being flooded with so much of it that it's causing sensory overload. I know, that makes no sence at all, but it's the best i can put it at the moment. All of which adds to the confusion which may lead to fear which usually manifests itself as anger.

Maybe we can all try to get back to discussing the thing that brought us all here in the first place. The thing we all look forward to and enjoy so much. Hobbying!!!!!  :-P

That being said........let the flaming begin.  

Wow! a man after my own heart....I agree! Are we having fun,yet?!
Sweet tastes better than sour! Don't worry be happy!

Passed some young girls on a side walk today, maybe 13-15 years of age, waving peace signs and yelling peace slogans at motorists.  Thought I'd give it a try, so asked them what age they thought were the men and women out in the sand going to battle for us.  They answered 19-23, which I considered pretty perceptive.  I then asked how they will feel when 6-8 years from now their 19-23 year old boy and girl friends (and maybe themselves) might very likely be out in the same sand fighting the same battles against the same but far more technologically destructive enemy.  There these girls' perception died and they hemmed and hawed, and as I walked on I sensed a considerable drop in their peace slogan enthusiasm.  None of us know for sure the relative risk/reward of this thing and the right answer only will be written in the prognostigators' guesses as to what might be or what might have been, so like most big decisions there's an equally big risk.  All I know for sure is that we don't want to be on the losing side because political democracy and economic capitalism are inexorably linked and the former collapses without the latter into class warfare and eventually totalitianism.  I'm not a Bushy and believe the coup he and his Repub friends pulled was unforgivable, but on the issue of Iraq and like situations I agree with him.  And those young girl;s I passed on the side walk -- I think deep down they also now are more likely to.

We're talking War here guys!! And while you all would feel more comfortable if America were united behind Bush, so we could all go back to our pleasent little hobby, it ain't gonna happen. Millions of thoughtful people, not just teenage girls, all around the world, including here in the U.S. and even on our innocent boards, are greatly disturbed by the possible horrors of this war.  The vast majority of people worldwide disagree with your support of the war and think it misguided.  So when you bring the subject up by blessing our troops, waving the flag, and all that, please don't be surprised if you are challenged.  If you want to discuss the ol hobby stuff, then stick to that.  But in a democracy, if you start touching on political issues, expect a response.  The anti-war members can be as emotional as you super-patriots!

you can't support our troops, wish them godspeed and hope for their safe return and still be against military action?

Many go into the military for many different reasons. Yes...they all know when they enlist there is always that chance they will go to war, or an over seas conflict ect. But just by virtue of the fact that we raise our flag, and say we are proud and support our men and women overseas does not automatically mean we are For this war. i do not think our feelings or opinions on any of this are that black and white.

They spit all over my father when he came home from Vietnam. I am sure their are many of you out there with similar stories. He got damn tired of being called a baby killer. He joined the Marines for a couple of reasons. He went to Vietnam because they sent him there. And when he came home our country for the most part didnt treat him any better than most of you would treat Saddam or one of his cronies. Are we going to do the same to those fighting this time? remeber the old saying...those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

There are those of us painfully aware of whats going on. Some of us are trying to explain to our children what is going on when we in fact have are still trying to sort it all out in our our minds and hearts. You can protest a war and still feel pride in our country. Because the last time I checked, that was a big part of what makes America great,...you can disagree with the goverment and their actions without fear of death based on your opinion.


There is no harm, no foul in challenging what our goverment does. We supposidly are the ones who put these people in office. But remember there are sons and daughters...husbands and wives who are not home with their loved ones tonight. They are doing what THEY feel is right, just as you do by posting your opinion.

As time marches on and all the arm chair generals add their .02, I know less and less about why and how this all came about...or how it will end.

Lets not degrade those who bless our brothers and sisters overseas, because you can protest a goverment action and still wish for our troops to come home safely.

~~Lass


-- Modified on 3/20/2003 3:08:06 AM

Thank you for that post Lass, that was very nice.  Good to read something that I can understand and agree with.  Now back to the original post.  What the heck is a minuscule microcosim of a society?  Small smaller society, help me out here.  Hermes, whats up with the blanket statements here?  Your saying you and your but reads like the majority of people here support this war.  You crazy or something.  Not many people that I know of support mass destruction and the killing of people.  Well maybe I just didn't understand what your saying.  Well everyone take care and may god bless all the troops and people in the world.  Buh Bye, Buh Bye.    

                                 jams

The support our troops issue becomes a problem when people try to use it to stifle dissent.

Do I support our troops?  Yes.  I wish them godspeed, and hope none of them come to harm.  If I knew any personally that were in this war, I'd be buying them a long series of dinners when they get home.

Do I support the leaders who sent the troops there and the decisions they made to send us to war?  No.  We're being lied to and dragged into a war for empire.  My anger is mostly directed at the Bush administration, but there's plenty of it for the pink-tutued Democrats.

So at this point with war started, I'm all for our men and women coming home safe and successful.  But I'm still going to be out there fighting for the country we used to be.  To do anything less is to abandon what many have died for in previous wars, rebellions and protests, and abandon the United States.

I try to not interject politics into the "bless our troops" threads.  But if a winger goes on there and starts acting like this will be a glorious war, I'm there to remind them no war is glorious, only a horrible necessity or not.

Correction: With enough heat, and something shiny for the back.

-- Modified on 3/20/2003 2:21:38 PM

Opposing the war and supporting "our" troops at the same time may seem a nice easy middle-of-the-road position, but like many such it may be found on close examination to contain irreconcilable contradictions.  (I put "our" in quotation marks because their commander in chief was not elected and the government that they more generally serve does not represent the American people.)

My own attitude towards the young people in US uniforms today is rather like what I feel towards todays' crop of recruits into the Crips, the Bloods, or the Mafia.  I do wish them well as fellow citizens and fellow human beings, but both for their own sake and that of their potential victims I heartily regret and wish undone their choice to join an organization dedicated to violence.

Lass brings up the thoroughly relevant matter of people's reasons for enlisting, but then she is curiously reticent about it.  She writes, "Many go into the military for many different reasons. . . . He joined the Marines for a couple of reasons"--but she then offers no specifics or further explanation in either case.  

Wanting to serve the cause of freedom even at the cost of one's own life is a noble motive, certainly.  So perhaps is wanting to serve the cause of Allah (the merciful, the compassionate) even at the cost of one's own life, like John Walker Lindh, the "American Taliban."  To combine the well-known sayings of General Sherman and Dr. Johnson, the road to war is paved with good intentions.  But when it comes to being prepared not merely to die but also to kill for a cause, surely there is some moral necessity at least to make sure of the righteousness of the cause first.  (Gandhi suggested however that while many causes might be worth dying for, none was worth killing for.)

Yes, Lass, people who enlist in the U.S. armed forces ought to be aware that "there is always that chance they will go to war."  They ought also to be aware that there is no guarantee or even much likelihood that if war comes, the cause that they will be fighting for will be freedom, in any meaningful sense of the word.  And they themselves are thus likely to wind up killing innocent people in an unconscionable cause, and going to meet their maker either then or later with the mark of Cain upon their souls.

But like their colleagues the tobacco merchants, the merchants of death in our military recruitment offices shrewdly target those who are too young to have figured this out or to be governed by reason at all.  That they will be ignorant of history is also a good safe bet.

There is a saying, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."  (Yes, yes, I know there's a Bushspeak version of it too.)  If today's US warriors were old enough to remember the Tonkin Gulf hoax, or the infamous baby-incubator hoax of Gulf War I, I'd say shame on them for signing up now.  As it is, I say shame on my own generation for not wising them up.

of soldiers fighting for freedoms to the Crips and the bloods is the most fucking stupid comparision I have ever heard of in my life. Your an idiot!  
You wish well to the fellow citizen who is trying to kill your kid with drugs and gang wars, who is in it only  for the sake of padding his own pockets.And in the same breath want to put the burden of Cain on the people protecting your ass.
While the men and women over seas, no matter what we may believe the purpose of this war is about, are putting their lives on the line for you , for YOU, understand that. Not to pad his pocket book.
No doubt that the other side we are fighting have their beliefs about what they do also and I can understand that point well.

To complain that someone doesn't explain what the couple of reasons are that someone goes into the service is really kind of stupid, cause no matter how articulate she maybe there is no way she can be in their head to explain to you why someone would enter into the service. Obiviously there are many reasons that yound men and women enter into the service, all very public and avaialble to you to know if you are as up on things as you seem to try and project. Nobody can speak for someone's moral reasons for what they do so why do you critize her for not giving you info she can't possibly give you.
You say that we need to make sure of the righteousness of the cause before we are ready to kill........maybe these people feel they are sure of it in their minds. Surely you aren't and I would assume that's why you aren't there protecting our freedoms. Or maybe the righteouness of the cause is just simply protecting our freedoms so that we and our children, your children can live free and the way that we so choose.
Freedom is always meaningful, in all senses of the word, just maybe what we have a hard time comprehending is  "when, at what point, at what action, is it that we start to lose our freedoms"

Brave US fighting men and women = Crips, Bloods and Mafia.  Goddamn that stupid ass statement pisses me off.

-- Modified on 3/20/2003 11:22:42 PM

It was a close race, but ultimately he won the electoral vote.  Winning the popular vote is nice, but we elect our presidents based on the electoral system.  If you would like a different system fine, but according to the law current when Bush ran, he won.

You really don't want to go there.  There were plenty of "questionable" activities in Florida, culminating in a Supreme Court decision that was so bad they refused to let it be a precident.

How 'bout we just agree he's President and don't talk about how he got there.

I won't proactively rub salt in any wounds, but if anyone posts that he wasn't elected -- then I won't be silent -- I will step up to the plate and voice my views.

To touch on a couple of comments you made. My father lied about his age and joined the army at 15. As they were about to ship his ass off to Korea the next year his brothers informed the Army he was indeed underage. They let him go and he then walked down to the Marine Corp recruiter and joined there. How that was possible I don't know considering this was some 60 years ago. He joined the Marines rather than work in the fields in Washington state as his mother had always done. It was an opportunity to learn a skill and have 3 hots and a cot and, yes, serve his country. Many join the armed forces now to get an education. My daughter hs considered it to apply for money for college and hopefully aquire the skills she will need to learn more about her chosen profession. Some join out of loyatly to their parents who might have been in the service. Others join to hopefully see the world and learn things that would never present themselves other wise. So yes there are many reasons.

One comment really burns me though antiphon. "My own attitude towards the young people in US uniforms today is rather like what I feel towards todays' crop of recruits into the Crips, the Bloods, or the Mafia." To in any way liken our military forces to the likes of gangs and organized crime is absolutely ludicrous (sp.) So we get rid of our military force, because the blood they spill will effect their chances in the here after. Or because it is none of our business what they do in their own countries. Do this and we will all meet or makers soon enough. How long do you actually think we will survive as a nation let alone a democracy without it? It is easy to sit back and make religious/political judgements against those who are making the deals, but given the power and responsibility of an entire nation, I am not so sure any of us would make descions that are any different. But we are not sitting in that Oval Office and I would never presume to have any idea what goes on there.

We don't know the whole story. We never will. I believe this to be a fact. I don't think they give us all the information and the Patriotic Propoganda machine works in high drive during times like these. But..even though I choose to not make public my desicion at this time as the whether I support or not support does not mean I do not wish these people to come home safely.

But I still think so many take for full advantage of the FACT, that it is easy to sit in judgement of those who have chosen the military and accept going to war as their path in life. But it is those ghosts that haunt many battles fields, those who lived and died for their countries and their beliefs that are exactly the reason you sit at your computer today and are able to have your say.

~Lass

-- Modified on 3/20/2003 10:13:31 PM

Has anyone heard the perspective from the Iraq immogrent? I am shure they are overall greatful we are doing this? Should'nt that satisfy the modern day peace protester? This is not vietnam there is reasons this thing should be removed . Yes I know attrosities happen in Africa alot and knowone lifts a finger but 2 wrong's dont make a right. The UN is a total failure and has been nothing but for 40 years. Isreal for instance has been in violation's seince 1967 however nowone in his/her right mind would send are boy's there and the media dosent ever address the truth about that. In the end I have to say the people who started out against this France,Germany,Russia... have a history of poor judgement and are manly doing it for political reasons not moral ones Dont get me wrong I didnt vote for boy george and wont but the time for politics about this issue are over and those who continue to play are allready regretting that they did. I think at this point if the French want to send troops they should send them to Germany to surrender. By the way did any one notice sadam weres a beret? coindance?

Bob59 takes, shall we say, strong exception to "the comparison of soldiers fighting for freedoms to the Crips and the Bloods."  Actually I was making no such comparison; for, as should have been clear from my previous, I do not share Bob's assumption that US soldiers today are fighting for freedoms, or are remotely likely to do so in coming years--unless perhaps it's the single all-important "freedom" of the rich to get richer.  Yes, freedom is a good thing, and I am sure many young US soldiers are naive enough to imagine (as well as intend) that that is what they are fighting for (and not merely in that one sense).  Respect is also a good thing, and I am sure many of today's crop of recruits into the Crips, Bloods, and Mafia are naive enough to imagine (as well as intend) that that is what THEY are fighting for.  The comparison with John Walker Lindh works similarly.  I respect good intentions, but I wish these young people would in all these cases wake up to the reality of what these violent organizations were really about, and accordingly refuse to take part.

I am always amazed at how many people regard it as unquestionable that freedom (OR respect) depends on violence.  It reminds me of the stereotypical south-sea-island volcano-cult, where the priest insists that human sacrifices are necessary and effective to prevent catastrophic eruption.  Of course he insists--his power depends on that belief.  If the people investigated and found out that there was no cause-and-effect connection between the human sacrifices and the volcano's inactivity, he would have a lot to answer for, too.  So he persuades the people that those who even question that cause-and-effect relationship are angering the volcano-god and endangering the island.  They are monstrously ungrateful, too, towards the memory of our brothers and sisters who gave up their lives that the island might be spared the lava-flows.  And isn't it a shameful irony that without those brave human sacrifices these *&^%$#@! questioners themselves would have been incinerated or buried in ash!  So let us all agree to despise and cuss at such questioners.  

Bob also berates me for "want[ing] to put the burden of Cain on the people protecting your ass."  On the contrary, what I want is precisely to spare them that burden.  And they are not protecting my ass; they are if anything further endangering us all, by swelling Al Qaeda's ranks, and by reinforcing the message that the US only respects the sovereignty of countries that have equipped themselves with nuclear weapons, like North Korea.


P.S.  I was not complaining, either, of Lass's reticence on reasons for enlistment--I was merely noting it as curious.  The point I was hinting at was that this too seems to be a matter that we're discouraged from inquiring into.

-- Modified on 3/21/2003 9:40:32 AM

-- Modified on 3/21/2003 5:10:26 PM

Wow, you are my type of woman!  I love intelligent, strong  women.  You made my day.  Are you by chance in So Cal?  If not where are you located, it would be with the trip!

Easy to take the peace-not-war out and maybe right, but maybe wrong and the risk of being wrong would be disaster.  Not surprising that many in the world are against us -- they all have their own motives and jealosies and are not threatened the way we are  by the world-wide terrorist threat.  Sometimes the hard answer is the right one, but no way to know, but also no reason because it's hard to conclude it's not.  Just keep in mind that we're the enemy,. not the rest of the world, and we have a decision to make.  On this one issue (certainly not on taxes, environment, social services, education, church and state, etc.) I for one have to agree with our feaux president.

Hardly debate, just asking them to think one step further than fashion and popularity.  One small step.  Interesting that they did it with little more than recognition of enlightened self interest.  Just like most of us and most of our leaders and most of other nations' leaders.  Sad but true, we must watch out for ourselves as well as being compassionate for others, cause no on is being particularly compassionate toward us.

She is located in Las Vegas, but i just cuaght on the Vegas board that she won't be posting for the next few days. Seems her computer is recieving Last Rites.

"Not surprising that many in the world are against us -- they all have their own motives and jealosies and are not threatened the way we are  by the world-wide terrorist threat."

Just a gentle reminder that most of the rest of the world has been enduring terrorist attacks (bombings in London and Ireland, Paris, Germany, and of course the Middle East and Africa) for years. We paid little attention to it because it wasn't happening here. With the advent of Timothy McVey et al we are now members of the Terrorized. Perhaps we should take note of how nations that have dealt with terrorist threats for decades handle their realpolitik.

Yeah, but these were the result of internal strife for the most part, not international realization that the infidel apparently had the answer to quality of life on this earth, that secular democracy had it all over church backed autocracy when it came to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Hate and jealousy toward the U.S. has existed for decades.  It is only now, though, that homeland complacency, technology and home-grown god figures have empowered individual fanatics to spank their sausages.