I recently visited a provider in Greensboro, and through casual conversation I told her I was a photographer (no, I'm not a clown with a camera, I'm actually a professional who does it for a living.)  She said she needed new photos and I said I'd love to come back soon and do a shoot for her.  I'm going to rent an upscale hotel room, bring lighting, etc.  So this is my question.  I'm not charging her for the shoot, but my time is certainly worth something as these will be pro photos, and blow away anything she has currently.  Would it be out of line for me to ask her for maybe an hour of her 'time' in exchange for the shoot?  I'm thinking that's perfectly reasonable, but I'm new to this so maybe I'm overlooking something.  So if I am, please school me!  lol...

Thanks everyone!

Finally someone called it like it is on this topic!!
Nicely done.

Yeah...it's creepy as shit.
The guy offers something....then later on, once the hook is set, wants to "trade".
An offer is an offer. Simple. To expect something from it after the offer is made is sleazy.

I think the OP said the girl was new, which means she's probably not wise enough to tell him where to stick his camera.

I trust you will capture the whole provider's family as you would at a wedding, oh that's right the family does not know.

Just from the shoulders up as in a good portrait shot, oh that's right head shots are often not posted for privacy reasons.

Well I am sure you can highlight her curb appeal, that might be important if she works in a red light district.

Well clown at least you have a camera.  Maybe you should take these as if you were both starting out.

charge 150-200 per look so unless she charge the same I would not barter your service.. why don't you just charge her for your service instead of expecting something in return?? if you are a pro why don't you shoot in a studio instead of a hotel room?

I'm also a professional photographer who first had a session with my provider and asked her after the session if she woud shoot TFP  for me. I rented a photo studio here in downtown L.A. brought my equipment,etc. The shoot went well. She loved the shots that she later displayed on her website. As I mentioned the photo session was strictly TFP as fas as I was concerned but she wanted to show me her appreciation by offering me a future session with her free of charge.

I wouldn't mention a 'time' exchange for the shoot if I were you.Keep it strictly business.
Let her have that choice.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for the advice so far guys!

mammalucco -- Well, I shoot weddings, families, portraits, and real estate, as pasrt of my professional offerings.  I don't shoot 'providers' as part of my regular service, so this is uncharted waters for me.

This girl is just starting out, and probably wouldn't pay for photos at this point.  So the way I'm viewing it is she will get some great shots instead of some cell phone snaps, and I would get a little more fun with her.  We'll see if she goes for it.  Even if she doesn't I'll still do the shoot for free, lol, because her butt was just so damn perfect!

Should I follow up and let you guys know what happens?

My approach would have been to discuss all this up front with her, not bring it up after the fact, which could feel to her like a bait and switch.  At this point, since you can't go back for a "do over," I'd just hope she'd want to express her gratitude in some way and leave it at that.

Keep the lines clear, you pay for her skills; she pays for yours.  I am self employed and was offered a long-term barter arrangement for my services. Personally, just asking for trouble.  Do what your intuition tells you. I think you know the answer.

Wedding / portrait / real estate photographer that is sure your shots will be great and worth whatever her hourly rate is?

You do know figure work ain't like a wedding or real estate right?

You claim you are an "actual professional" but want to play the barter game like a clown with a camera?
Why?

You want to give her a free shoot go for it...
you want to do trade for print go for it...
you want to act like a creepy guy with a camera that is gonna do her this great favor by letting her fuck him for photos that aren't even what he normally shoots?

How's about this, you do a shoot for her for free and she uses your shots on her site, if you are as good as you think you will be you can then get work as a photog for ladies in this biz and you both benefit from the shoot without you getting the extra added benefit of a free fuck for doing her a "favor" that can benefit you as much as her?

...but I have the feeling you already made up your mind to be the creepy barter guy that will take great figure shots just like you take hot pictures of real estate...and you get a fuck out of it to boot, you only asked because you wanted people here to tell you to go for it...which at the time of me writing this, no one has, yet you say you will still ask...yeah guess you are only an actual professional because you don't want to fuck the house you take pictures of, but as soon as your dick gets hard all professionalism goes away.

ever confuse the two.. Do a photoshoot with her. Work out the fees and charge her for whatever you feels is reasonable.. Then go and see her for a session...Mixing business deals is ALWAYS A BAD DEAL...............

I feel so much better after  reading these responses! I am comforted by the gracious, fair and common sense out look that I see presented here so far.

As a person who has dealt with MANY different photographers over the years-he sounds like the dreaded GWC ( just a guy with a camera). He may be very gifted but to ask that question, especially AFTER the shoot was done is very amateurish.  

To answer you directly-it would be in very poor taste, not to mention predatory and exploitative if you  attempt to renegotiate the terms of your agreement. If you offered to do her shoot for free and  did so because you thought she would be a good subject to grow your own portfolio-then just stick to that. This is a small world and word can spread like wild fire ( fair or no) re: reputations and you don't want to acquire a bad one. That was something that should have been discussed upfront or frankly not at all.

The mark of a true pro in any business is one who is not derailed by ego and desire but motivated by their final goal and some personal honor. If your goal is to simply get laid by swapping your services you need to make that clear-to both yourself and your subject. IF you want to be considered a serious photographer don't even ask the question.

So now ya know. ; )

Why on earth would you so incredibly undervalue your skills and work as to be willing to give them away for free?

Hey, I'm not saying I'm not sometimes helpful to a lady at no cost. But that's just something that comes from friendship.

But, damn, I know what pro photographers charge and, just in my humble opinion, exchanging that for a roll in the hay is selling yourself short.

If she wants your photography skills -- have her pay for them in cold hard cash on the barrelhead -- just like you pay for her skills.

THEN take that money and you can use it for whatever you'd like. If you want to give it back to her for a roll in the hay -- fine. If you want to use it to fund your child's education, also fine. The point is that the cold hard cash is then yours without strings.

HOWEVER -- you no longer have that option. You have agreed to give her this valuable expertise for free.

Guess what free means? It means at no cost or obligation. It means that you can do that for her and if next week she decides not to take your calls or ever schedule another session with you, that's cool.

No, you cannot and ought not ask her for a roll in the hay in exchange.

YOUR task now is to give her the absolute best photoshoot available, sparing no time or skill. Even if it is a $5000 session, you give it to her -- along with rights to the photos -- for free.

And you have absolutely no grounds to feel screwed if when you book your next session, you pay full price plus tip.

Now, MAYBE, if the photos are good and stuff, she will repay you in some way. But you have no right to ask for that because you have already quoted your price: free.

in an upscale hotel room...

I also have services that I offer to the public.  Since providers are people, some of them have used those services.  I make a point of keeping these dealings separate.  There are ladies here that can substantiate this, although I certainly don't expect any of them to do so.

NO.  If you are a true professional (photographer, accountant, whatever), you charge your going rate.  If you are good at what you do, your reputation will be enhanced by more business.

"(no, I'm not a clown with a camera, I'm actually a professional who does it for a living.)"

 If you were actually a professional photographer, trading time wouldn't come to mind.
A pro photographer will charge between 500 and 1000 for a provider photo shoot, and not even think of doing his subject.
Just because you did your sisters wedding doesn't mean you are a pro.
In case you are thinking of breaking into the business by trading photos for sex, won't be  the way to develop a client base.
Sleazy photographers don't make a living taking photos.

"... I told her I was a photographer (no, I'm not a clown with a camera, I'm actually a professional who does it for a living.)  She said she needed new photos and I said I'd love to come back soon and do a shoot for her.  I'm going to rent an upscale hotel room, bring lighting, etc.  So this is my question..."

Seriously! You offered it by saying, "I'd love to come back soon and do a shoot..." All that she had said was to use it from your description, "she needed new photos" Although you may have gathered that she was soliciting this service from you, but she technically never said that, according to the way that you have described it. Therefore your offer for the shoot can definitely be interpreted as a pro bono offer; so you have not only offered her your services for free, but you must also pay for the room, plus paying her for her time which is incidentally an outcall rate (since it's your posh hotel room!) if you end up "Hobbying" with her

This is what you get for letting your little head do the thinking and selling your skills-set for naught. Did I miss anything?

WT definitively nailed it. Doing this type of photography is much different that what he described that he does for a living. Many skilled photographers know how to create the illusion and I don't mean photo shopping. It is about lighting and poses, as well as costumes, make up, hair styling. Many providers don't want to show their face or have the photos too provocative. Although some may use a hotel room a fully equipped studio is much more professional.

And yes he is letting the creepy and sleazy part of him out all the way!

I have offered the services that my company provides to providers. They pay the rate (maybe slightly lower) but I do not expect anything in return.

WOW, so much hostility on this forum.  Maybe you guys need to get some more action?  I was just asking for opinions, and for the most part I got some really nasty comments.  What a great bunch of 'saints' you all must be!!!  I LOVE the holy than thou attitudes.  For those of you that provided constructive answers to my question, you have my sincere gratitude.

I don't know why people flatter themselves thinking they MUST charge professional prices without exception. It's a dog eat dog world, and you take what you get. I write software and do websites and often barter my services. If I expected people to treat me like Bill Gates, I would never have grown my business. I probably write code just as hard as Gates and Mark Zuckerberg, but I charge what the market will bear. If people can not afford my services but offer me barter, I will take them up. In 8 years of doing this, bartering has worked out very well.

What I offer is tiered pricing , depending on what your budget and expectations are. At the lowest tier is  "non-profit" pricing, which basically gets lowest priority support.

Look carefully at the posts above by providers.

Please note that even though they have never seen his work and therefore have NO basis for judgment, they are calling his work everything from unprofessional to worthless.

One thing a man with self-esteem learns is not to put his time, skills, effort and value in front of people who cannot appreciate it.

I have no idea why providers have expressed such hostility to his suggestion; but it was predictable because it always happens with posts of that type.

Here's the thing -- people don't place value on what they get for free. Therefore people who have never even met this guy or seen his work are devaluing his work. THIS is why I told him the only way a provider should get his skills is for full-price cash on the barrel head.

... the providers have universally expressed disdain for your idea -- even calling the quality of your work and your professionalism into question -- even though they have never met you or seen your work.

I know what good photography is worth, and it is worth a lot more than a single session with most providers in terms of dollar value.

You shouldn't be giving this away for free unless it is to someone who actually appreciates and values you.

Every provider is an individual. Maybe the lady you are discussing holds you in some degree of esteem, has seen your work, and knows she will greatly appreciate it. So you can't base your interactions with this lady on the reactions you are getting from people here.

If she cannot afford a photo shoot session and she's ok with the idea, why not.
The OP said she cannot afford the photoshoot and expensive hotel.  He's paying for it.
It's not like the OP is Mother Theresa.  I've read some hobbyist here mentioning barter before
and that's not a problem.  Heck, I had a provider ask me for new tires for her car, and although
not explicitly mentioning a freebie, the barter led to a session in exchange for new tires. It was just 'understood' that its not about something for nothin.  There's no such thing as a free lunch in P4P.

My reply had everything to do with what he said he was a professional photographer of.
Weddings / Portraits / Real Estate

Now you seem to believe from his post that figure work from him will be valuable...
I would be inclined to disagree.

Wedding photographs tend to be candid shots and standing poses of groups without much consideration of composition beyond center the group, or the most "artistic shot" being close up of hands to see the rings...again generally centered.

The composition of portraits is  again generally centered, no indication of line, movement, negative space, depth, etc...

Real estate photography is from a street house and yard centered and nothing artistic about it, with lighting not even a consideration.


Figures...they are a whole different ball game.


Now, he may be a natural st figure work, but to charge for what is essentially his first try?
To give it the same dollar value as pro-photogs who have done figure work for years?
If he has nver done these kinds of photos before his skills are about that of "guy with a camera", at least for this type of work.

Now, I am not a photog..really don't have an eye for it, though I have taken a few figure shots that were pretty good (but even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time), what I am is a figure artist, drawing, painting, printmaking.

Now, whether or not I am any good at it, I leave the critiquing to those who have seen my work...
but I will say many years ago when I was in college I had professors try and get live models for me in classes that weren't even set up for live models, and had one professor ask me to teach another student to draw figures as that student was was wanting to go into fashion design...
no one ever has or ever will ask me to teach landscape or still-life or architectural drawing.
Why?
Completely different skill set, completely different eye required.

Same goes for photography...taking a shot of house ain't anywhere near the same as a taking a picture of woman on a bed or sofa.

I have attached an image of a real estate picture, a wedding photo, a portrait, and three figure pictures.  Can you honestly say you see the same skills in each?

Oh and for the curious...the figure pics were taken by two photogs that take images for ladies in this business.  Both charge quite a bit less than $500,  one works in LA the other in LA and Las Vegas, where incidentally ladies charge on average $400 / hr for their time.

You really think the wedding, real estate guy should get $500 - 1000 for his first foray into figure work?
You really think a "freebie" would be underselling his value?

I disagree...
for his first try at work for this business trade for print is about the best he should be getting...
and asking for freebie screams unprofessional, not professional that should be getting the high end of the escort photo price range.

As usual, you are eminently reasonable and make a sound case.

The posting I saw as being unreasonable -- as surprising as it may be because I truly think VERY highly of her -- was that of Lauren Summerhill. The idea that anyone willing to barter is automatically not a professional is untenable.

I am blessed to be a professional in many fields -- all sorts of degrees, qualifications, licenses, certifications and credits in far-flung areas of expertise. And sometimes, yes, I barter. In fact, some of my skills are available ONLY for barter. Specifically, I accept payment only in gold. As gold is not currency or legal tender, anything I do for gold is bartered. I also, within my network of friends or closer acquaintances, will often barter a skill or product of mine in exchange for a skill or product of theirs. For some of my skills, my prices are so high that in order to make them available to people who otherwise couldn't afford them but are nevertheless deserving, I might work out alternative payments -- such as a cut of future profits or something like that. So I found Ms. Summerhill's assertion beyond ridiculous.

There were some others as well. Those that insisted that barter would always result in a big mess, for example, were predicating that conclusion on what is an unfortunate fact: that people seldom understand and appreciate the work of others as being as valuable as their own. As a result, barter of services particularly can go awry. Most people suspect that professionals who charge a fortune -- mechanics at dealerships for example -- are unjustly gouging them to start with. Whether they are *actually* being unjustly gouged doesn't matter -- that is how they see it. So in an exchange of legal services at $250/hr with a provider charging $250/hr; both parties will likely feel they got the short end of the stick because both would prefer to pay less because they feel they are getting gouged.

But this problem only exists because of people insufficiently valuing the skills and abilities of others relative to their own. It's a lack of valuation of our fellow person.

So those sorts of posts were really the subject of my post more than your own; but let me delve a bit into photography.

I don't consider myself a photographer and I don't usually offer my services as one. However, in the past six months 250k copies of a book containing about a hundred of my photographs (though photography was not the focal point of the book) have been sold. My experience with photography is a bit bizarre in that it started out in the surveillance field a couple of decades ago; but in the intervening time my photography has been featured in a number of books, websites, and magazines. Again, none of these publications were dedicated to photography as an artform. Nevertheless, though in a sense it is incidental, my photography is all over the place and certainly more widely published than that of many (though not all) people who do photoshoots for providers. I do not do sex-photography, but have done just about everything else. So I am pretty familiar with the field.

Given this background, I generally agree with you that skills do not translate well between subjects sans experience. Taking a picture of a peach is very different from a picture of a person, or a dog, or a house. And while there are certain commonalities of underlying principle that apply; some consideration and experience is needed to re-adapt skills to a new subject. Also, the photo editing skills required are radically different and nuances are more important when dealing with human subjects.

That having been said, we do not know, and cannot assume, that simply because this would be his first gig of that sort the results would be sub-standard or unworthy of a full fee. We'd have to see the work to know that. Some people are particularly gifted in this regard and can make switches that would be difficult for others without skipping a beat.

He is already a pro photographer and you are already a pro provider. He isn't used to a certain sort of photography. Pretend I have some sort of fetish -- something you've never done before and have zero experience with doing. (For fun we'll make it ridiculous like I get off by watching women stack wooden nickles with their tongue while standing on their head.)  When I come see you, do you charge me a lower rate because of your inexperience at that particular fetish, or do I pay your normal rate (and perhaps a bit more depending) and you give it your very best effort?

My argument is that since the guy promised her a free session -- that's what he owes her. Free. Even if it is the absolutely most amazing photography on earth and by employing it she becomes an overnight millionaire; he promised it for free and he should deliver on it for free. It was a crazy offer imho. People do NOT value what they get for free. They SHOULD, but they don't. But since he made the offer, he should adhere to it. Asking for barter after the fact is trying to change the deal. It is the equivalent of an upsell.

Outside of that, if he hadn't made such an offer -- look at the other posts I referenced. Barter is not a viable option either because some ladies don't RESPECT anyone who offers barter as a professional (hmmm ... I've bartered with my doctor. LOL) And others basically acknowledge that for services, people do not respect the value of another's time and skill thus leading to conflicts in fair valuation. Thus, I argue that such people should be dealt with for cold hard cash only.

I won't even get into the sexism of the "I only let females photograph me" post. Unfortunately, I am already out of pull-string Barbies with a "Math is hard" message. (*grin*) Some great engineers are women and some of the very best photographers of women are men.

One VERY viable option for this fellow in future attempts is to offer the shoot on contingency. That is, he will do ALL the work and retain ALL the rights. The lady gets to look at the work, and if she accepts it, she pays him and then gains the rights to the work as per usual. Either way, he only accepts cash.

So in summary, I wasn't being critical of you because ... well, there's nothing to criticize. LOL. Our disagreements are minor and cosmetic and we largely agree. My real complaint was with other posters, some of whom surprised me.

this brings up the age old discussion of exchanging services for pussy.  i had the offer to exchange service for service and it felt kinda weird.  provider i was seeing told me about her computer problems during after sex chit chat.  being an IT guy i fixed her problem before i left just as a favor.  she said  "i owe you one for that".. never took her up on it as she charged $300 and  hour and it took me only a few minutes to solve her problem.  did not want to take advantage of the situation..

My bro KJ and I went off on this douche in PM.

Trying to justify that 'time was time'. Fucking pisses me off!

Even went so far to say it was hypocritical what we do.

Know the alias won't get flipped, but hoped the lady's knew who it was and his business practice.

Wish I could say the mother-fucker doesn't choke on the wishbone next Thursday!