I was thinking about providers who request references from other providers a hobbyist has seen as part of their (the providers') screening process:

1)  As a provider, would you respond to a reference request from an unknown/unreviewed provider asking for a reference on a guy you have seen?

2)  As a hobbyist, would you give references to an unknown/unreviewed provider you wish to see?

3)  Assuming that your answer to Nos. 1 or 2 is yes, isn't the reference process a good way for LE posing as providers to get info from hobbyists on providers whom they can then attempt to bust?

4)  Assuming the answer is to No. 1 is no, the hobbyist has no reference sources.

5)  Then, of course, we had the recent case of a provider giving a reference for a hobbyist she could not remember, and the second provider ended up having a bad time with the "screened" hobbyist.

After thinking about it, my conclusion is that provider references are not a particularly good idea for either the providers or the hobbyists.  At least the downside is as great as the upside, so I question their value.  Your thoughts?



-- Modified on 11/10/2003 7:19:40 PM

Question #1 Answer: NO
a reference is only as good as who is giving it.
Personally, I only take references from well known ladies. Thing is that references are only one part of my screeing process. I also have other ways of screening.
Most well known ladies are excellent providers so, it shouldn't be a problem for guys to see a well known lady and only need to be screened once.

Kisses,

Tiffany

from the subject but.....dayum Tiff your site is gorgeous. Love the pics and layout. Beautifully done girl.

Miss talkin at ya and I hope you are well.

kisses

xoxox
V

Thanks Lass,

Wish I could take credit but, I owe it all to my webmistress. She's the best!! I miss talking to you too girl such a sweety.
E-mail or call me real soon.

Kisses,

Tiffany

it's not whether you would ask for a reference from an unknown/unreviewed provider, it's whether you would respond to a request from an unknown/unreviewed provider--you would be giving the reference.  

The point of the question is to raise the issue of the usefullness of references compared to the risks associated with them.

I talk about references, and their downsides quite frequently, to the point where I think my strongly worded posts are often misunderstood.
(See the thread begun by Tattoogirl dated 10/22/03, and my replies to Waterclone.) Merely mentioning this thread as a recent topic discussion only for you to refer to..

Here, in SD, we are pretty much under the agreement that the use of references is 'fluff' and we've come to that conclusion BECAUSE of the various 'holes' that references have, and have one at a time been bitten in the butt as a result.

If the gentleman provides one, I'll email the ladies - why not? It's good to have and I love hearing from my 'sisters' from all over! But, it isn't my screening.

And I will always be happy to provide one for a gentleman, but my template email will include the wording that this reference in NO WAY is a substitute for their own screening processes. They are still responsible to do that.

#1 - doesn't make any difference.
# 3 - not really. My references say, "yes, I've seen him; yes it went fine; and yes, I would see him again". Hardly interesting enough for LE.

Your conclusion is exactly right. However, if people want to use them, are fine with it, and it works for them, then great. But at least make a more informed decision by contacting those who've experienced just HOW you can get in big trouble RELYING (key word there) on references.

What I would like to see discussed regarding references is this:

Ladies and Gents: how SHOULD the flow go in regard to references?
Do you think the gentleman should contact the lady he intends to use as a reference FIRST by asking her if she would provide a reference to Lady2? So, that, she will be expecting it? Or, does it matter to you?

Do you ladies want permission first regarding references, or does it matter?

Here's what I experienced this week regarding references. I got an email from a lady in LV asking about a client I've seen. I sent her my reply.
Then, I got an email from another local lady, who was also used as a reference for the same lady, for the same client, but she doesn't know why he uses her, as she doesn't remember him at all and this is the X number of times he's done so in the last few months. She asked me why he would do that when she doesn't even remember him, and yet he hasn't contacted her to refresh her memory! I told her that I had provided the reference the other lady needed, explained that you really don't remember him; and let him know I'd be happy to be his sole reference, but, that, if he decided to use her also, that he really should contact her as it's been too long!

So, certainly, if the gents are going to use a lady as a reference, make sure she would at least remember who he is; contact her, or something!

I would also like to see the reasons why (this and that) from everyone. In other words, why the lady wants to be asked first; why some ladies don't want to provide a reference at all, ever; and what 'offends' them about being asked for a reference. And any other comments from both.

I only have one thing that would 'offend' me about someone using me as a reference. And that is a gentleman I saw when I was first brand new in the business. I saw him twice. But, from then on, I've provided several references for him, which I don't mind - it's my pleasure - but it's a bit tacky to use someone you saw a long time ago, and not again since, and then you don't mind using her as a reference for every single encounter thereafter! Use somebody that you've seen more recently! Or make another appointment! It's insulting.

Anyway, hope this is somewhat helpful. I don't really know anymore..

-- Modified on 11/10/2003 9:15:23 PM

Sorry, been fighting a bad head cold past couple of days.

In that case my answer would be yes. Reason being is that, when I answer a request for reference, I  will only reply with something non-incriminating, he's a great guy etc. I would never admit that I have actually seen the person.

Thanks for the heads up smith and jones,

Tiffany

I use this Adult Verification service.  What makes it so good is that they require NO personal information like work detail or phone #'s.  You are a member and thus verified only by known providers.  When a new Date-Check member provider wishes to verify you, she sees your profile on Date-Check, and a listing of other D-C providers you have seen, with e-mail, phone and web site listings for them.  So the provider has at her disposal any information she needs to verify you.

Although nothing is completely LE-proof, D-C comes close in that only verified member providers may verify clients.  So the odds of any LE getting admitted is very low.  And the data kept on each client is minimal, from a sensitvity standpoint.

I ask if a fellow has seen other providers and for their names.  If the provider is someone I know or I know is safe i.e someone like Sedona with a good reputation here or on another board.  I will check with her.  It's an extra screen but not the only one. I also ask because knowing who you see helps me determine and understand:

A. How much experience you have doing this
B. The type of experience you enjoy
C. Where you might want to go with our experience

I'm sure other escorts can add to this list.

I have never had a provider be bothered when I asked (as far as I can tell) and I have always received an answer.  Contrary to what you might think it's almost always a cheerful exchange conducted with a sense of camaraderie.

We exchange little information about the "gentleman caller" but it does provide us with another point of assurance.  

I think your conclusion is faulty. You have not considered the benefits of the extra confidence we feel when we KNOW you have seen someone else we trust.  In that case a reference from a fellow provider or hobbyist (if we want to go so far as to reverse this whole question)can be beneficial for both the patron and the provider.

You asked, "As a provider, would you respond to a reference request from an unknown/unreviewed provider asking for a reference on a guy you have seen?"  

Yes, I would.  I would probably check a few things out first but I would.  I don't see much harm in at least saying "yes" I have seen him or "no" I haven't.  

You asked, "Assuming that your answer to Nos. 1 or 2 is yes, isn't the reference process a good way for LE posing as providers to get info from hobbyists on providers whom they can then attempt to bust?"

That question assumes more than it assumes.  I find it almost ridiculous.  ::duck::  Sorry.

As always, YMWV.

1- yes once i emaied the client and asked him if this was valid
2- hobbyist shouldnt need to give refernces..especially with TER?????????
3- Law Enfrc is not going to waste time trying to play the kitty in the middle to get a bust on a provider when they can set up a sting by getting a profile on RS2K and make a date with her.
4- The hobbyist can provide many verification sources. If he is a regular poster and has provided reviews on TER theres one. Date check is another. Phone numbers and completing her form --- Why would he need references?
5- What happened between the new provider and the old client is unfortuante but just because I see you I cant garuntee the next person you date your going to be a perfect gentleman date or Hobbyist to.
A reference is a statement saying I recognize the name I indeed met this person.. or I DID NOT meet this person...
By reference I would not give details. I would not tell your likes dislikes or what privately had occurred between us that is tacky. I would simply confirm that I had attended an event with you and it was a pleasant experience.

I would agree with your point, Sedona, about using you as a reference forever, after just one visit.

I set a maximum on the number of times I would ask a lady to give a reference, equal to the number of times I've seen her, plus one. Seems fair, and allows for the occasional provider who does not want to give a reference.

Agree with Sedona. Common courtesy for the guy is to ask (e-mail) if it is OK to use her as a reference.  In the business world for a job search, this is how it is done.  This is a business for the ladies and a hobby for us guys.  Treat them right and ye too shall be rewarded.

Very intelligent post.  As an hobbyist, I like the idea of the provider not giving info about me to someone the provider doesn't know, until at least checking with me be sure it's a legit inquiry.  I also like the idea of the provider making no incriminating statements about me to anyone.  I hope all other providers are savvy enough to realize that "attended event"-type response to a reference inquiry is required to meet standard of professional discretion.

a provider will make a negative statement about you to another provider, is to warn her about something, you might have done, or something about you, that was unappealing to her, in order to let the other provider heads up.