I've never counted the money while a client was at my incall ocation nor have I ever looked in the envelope. I have just always felt it was kind of rude.

But a few days ago I had a client that tried to trick me. He asked to use the bathroom and after he used it, he stated he left the donaion on the on the counter. I've never had a client do this so I went in the bathroom just to make sure it was there. I saw the envelope but it was sealed. I've also never had a client seal the envelope.

So I decided to open it and discovered there was notebook paper inside. When I confronted him, he stated that he had given me the wrong envelope and that the one with he money was in his car and he would go get it. I asked hi to leave and advised him not to contact me again.

I know a lot of providers and hobbyists advocate the envelope but I much prefer just seeing the cash laid out on the table. Luckily, I checked the envelope, but I would have been very upset if I didn't.

I just wanted to know what members thought about the issue with envelopes and how to avoid this problem, besides making sure the client has references or actually looking in the envelope.

Do you think it's rude for a provider to look inside the envelope?

Also, this is kind of off topic, but I really don't understand why so many clients try to negoiate rates.

My ads clearly state my rates are non-negotionable. I understand that the economy isn't that great, but hobbying is just that: a hobby. If you can't afford a provider, you shouldn't contact her. You can find a provider that fits your budget. I think it's rude to try to negotiate rates, especially if you're not a regular.

I just also wanted to know member' thougts on this as well.

I know there are 2 ends to this. I know some providers try toupsell. But that is something I have never practiced. My rates are inclusive and includes any service that is listed on my website. I don't scam peoiple and I hate to feel like I'm being haggled with.

My rates are very reasonable and it's just an insult to me for you to try to get anything lower.

Sorry for the rant. Today has kind of been a bad day and I just wanted to release

Certainly wouldn't bother me. Too many untrustworthy types, as your example illustrates.

Btw, I love horror movies also, but the older ones, not many good ones produced after the late 70's--------

.....and any other would in their business.

    Your experience is not the first time a Jerk has tried to take advantage of the UTR nature of the business.  In the outside world they would be arrested.

He leaves the envelop on the nearest flat surface then excuses himself to the restroom while you open and count it's contents. Nothing rude about that.

Regarding negotiating rates, yes some people feel it's rude, but some people feel entitled to do so. It's just a matter of not taking it personally, and if you do, just don't see the guy. Oh, and some of us just look at the pretty pictures and the contact info., and ignore the rest. Many of us are very busy, and are looking at multiple providers to see if we can work out a meet up on relatively short notice.

I leave it in plain view while I freshen up to give you the opportunity to check, and avoid the question of if it is rude, or not.

Most ladies ask that the envelope be placed in plain view when he/she arrives... This is pretty standard and most familiar with boards such as this one follow such protocol.

I don't like to look in front of the guy. I usually grab the envelope excuse myself to the bathroom and count there.

It doesn't always go exactly this way, but I never had anyone complain if I had to count it in front of him.

The guy you mentioned was an ass. Dummy! But often people will seem like your best friend all the time trying to take advantage of you.

Kisses,
Vanica

-- Modified on 7/11/2010 12:08:57 PM

Clients have short changed me, but these were clients who just "didn't remember the rate", or made a mistake counting.  All I had to do is call them, they came back with the cash.  They felt badly.  Must be "MN nice" working here.

I figure, what goes around, comes around.  It's their loss in the long run, to short us.  They're the ones who have to look in the mirror each morning and try to like what they see.  People who steal or cheat just never win.

You can cheat at solitaire, and actually look like you win, but you can't fool yourself...  Ever.  I've tried it.  And then, I woke up.

There is nothing rude about checking. Unfortunately there are dirt bags out there and you need to do what's right for you. I always give the lady I'm visiting the opportunity to check the envelope (never sealed) by excusing myself from the room.

i like to use an envelope (unsealed) and a gift card as an additional wrapper it it is for companionship. for a non companionship, purely therapeutic massage, appointment i use a simple unsealed business envelope.

leaving it on near table and then excusing oneself to visit the bathroom is an excellent practice.

one favorite lady made a ritual of counting it all out together so we were both sure that the amount was verified as corrrect. i have no problem with that either. it's an ordinary business practice. when i get money from a bank i don't ask a bank teller to put it into an envelope and NOT count it out together! LOL!

since i tend to visit favorites repeatedly, accidents will rarely happen and folks are reasonable.

once i made a visit and, unusually, we got into things very quickly. as i was driving away i turned on my cell and got a call asking where i had put the envelope. i checked and sure enough i still had it. i offered to immediately turn around and make good. but this would have been inconvenient to her. so a deferred drop off was arranged.

I really haven't had a problem with any of my clientele, sometimes I will get my donation in a envelope not sealed where i would put my purse etc  or some dates hand it to me during our dinner date under the table..  

But yes there has only been 1 guy who has tried to talk me down from his usual donation to a lower amount and well, it didnt work .. told him to find another provider who would do that for him..   havent heard from him in a while now  hmmmmmmmmm ?
SweetPeach

I admit I am old school...  my FAVs do not expect the donation until after where it blends seamlessly with dressing.  In fact, I typically empty my pocket junk onto the corner of her dresser, next to the chair she thoughtfully provides...  when I redress, the donation is left behind.  
On first dates, I expect to deposit the donation early on.  I prefer a lady not count it in front of me but surely expect her to quickly verify it.  It's about the GFE illusion...  

I have always feared that I would screw up the donation... which I have precounted & separate in my key pocket where I'll feel it.  Indeed I would return with the donation if it was not right.
skb

Excuse yourself to the bathroom and count the contents of the envelope.  The problem is, even a reg will try to short you sometimes.  I had an ATF who was shorted $25 one time.  She let it go thinking the guy had just miss-counted.  A month later he ripped her off for a hundred. Rather than start counting his envelope every time he booked she simply stopped seeing him.

Ripping a provider off is pretty low but there are A-holes born every minute.  Don't ever be shy about checking the donation if you feel you need to.  Any reasonable guy will understand why you are doing it.

Personally, I happen to think that it is in very poor taste for a provider to ask for, discuss or even worse count the donation in front of you. And if a provider is having problems with hobbyists ripping them off, they need to reevaluate their screening process. When a hobbyist sees a provider, his reputation is on the line just as much as the providers.

I have only been confronted twice by a provider for the donation upfront and both times it turned out to be a bad experience. The one thing both providers had in common is that they were both low-end providers.

Think about it in terms of the service you would get at a restaurant, in one hand you have all of the fast food joints that make you pay for your crappy meal before you get it and in the other hand you have 3 and 4 star restaurants that present you with the bill after you've finished the meal.



-- Modified on 7/11/2010 2:34:28 PM

if you were ever on the "short" end of the stick- as I have been (and I'm a mature, nuanced, intelligent woman who happens to provide part-time) then I'm afraid you would all too quickly abandon your low-end/high-end parallels.

Because my protocol requires payment upfront, I have caught every instance of money mis-management before I shed a stitch. So you have never heard me complain about duplicitous clients taking advantage of me.

Preparation serves.

If LE is on you or on me, they will find a way to get either one of us. It won't matter if they have tape or not of you counting cash or me handing it to you.

This is a business, I am paying for sex and that is what I expect. Counting the cash in front of me doesn't ruin any fantasy of mine and I am still not sure what fantasy it ruins for the other guys.

I am ok with leaving the envelope in the room somewhere but can't stand it when her provider states to leave it in the bathroom.

If a provider states on her site that she wants the cash left in the bathroom, I simply look for someone else.

1. Is it permissible for me to just count the money out from my hand into yours, especially if we have seen each other before?

2. Does the session timer start AFTER the money has been counted?

The idea is that she goes in to freshen up, she can then count the money out of sight from you which is good for two reasons:

1.  If you are LE, you never see her pick up the envelope and

2.  It avoids the rudeness issue.

Frankly, I think it is the best routine.

Why do you have a problem with it?

Punk mother-fucker tried to fuck you in more ways than one. Putting a sealed envelope with paper in it is bull shit. You should've whacked his fucked up ass with something upside the head when he was walking out.

But as far as negotiating rates, if it isn't clearly stated on your website, well, that gives some guys room to fuck with you as well.

Like you said. Times are tough. But this isn't Walmart where they guarantee the lowest prices every day.

Just sayin'...

I am embarrassed to say, that not long ago, I placed my envelope on the dresser and then when the provider showed up I pointed it out to her, twice.  I know now that she wasn't sure if I was LE or not.  I'm glad she stuck with me.

Since then, I have learned from TER, that if I leave the envelope on the dresser and excuse myself to the bathroom to wash up it gives the lady an opportunity to quickly make sure the finances are in order.

In all honesty, if the shoe was on my foot, I would not worry about providing the illusion of fantasy for someone else until I made sure of  the correct compensation.     Business before pleasure doesn't offend me.       TH

How do you get from a lady wondering if she should check the envelope to one crass question and one pointless one?

Don't know anyone walking around with note book paper stuffed in an envelope.

Be glad that he didn't tell you that the ATM spit note book paper and he thought it was money since it came from the ATM.

Once a thief always a thief. You threw him out right? If you didn't, shame on you!

I was going to say that, but thought it might be kinda hypocritical.

I used to steal cars and shit when I was younger.

Now I just steal lady's hearts.

First the envelop is just a small way of keeping things a little less in ur face. If a provider wishes to count it, I say, GOOD. She shouldn't have to worry about it. I've never had any lady check it out in front of me anyway. The comment about negotiating. They just are cheap jerks and wish to try anyway possible to jerk any woman around. If they can't afford the quoted rates they should get out of this playground and stop being cheap. I never ask for a lower rate, would never do that. You get what you pays for, my daddy always told me. MY ATFs always appreciate me and my money, so I show them the same respect and never try and save a buck at their expense.

If I am a new client to a provider I don't have any problems with her counting the money in front of me. If it was an ATF that I had been seeing for some time and all of a sudden she decides that she wants to count the money that I left that would cause me to get annoyed.

For some odd reason the software didn't work well for me this morning and failed to include the face I had intended; which would have altered the interpretation of the meaning.

Seeing a provider is nothing like going to a restaurant. Also, if you get bad service and/or food you can refuse to pay. Can you imagine all the jerks who would refuse to pay claiming the girl wasn't as advertised....?

Ladies, when a hobbyist makes a post like this, it serves ad a reminder to stuck to your guns!  I adore most of my clients, but I don't let one bad apple spoil the whole damn bunch.

And what's worse is everyone knows I'm a borderline teetotaler so I can't blame it on drinking!

I'll do better next time!

For some reason the software didn't add the I had intended, so the meaning came across way harsher than I was intending.

Sucks that the lady had a guy trying to steal; but it's good she showed him the door.

the money be left in the bathroom first thing so I can "go wash my hands" and discretely count. *some exeptions since each individual situation warrants some approach modification*
BUT I always check .. Men can 'forget' or confuse  so many things.  I feel awkward and rude counting but men have to know what we go thru even with some seemingly wonderful guys. But there are ways to handle it discretely.  Always count your money IMHO.

Once a fellow came to incall we had a GREAT time.
He seemed so happy.  Back then I use to wait till hours end and we were both so frazzled by the end of our time ... we haziliy parted company and he had left an envelope on the counter.
When I opened inside were two condoms.

I was stunned.  Thought to myself "That guy was really good.  Wouldn't have suspected he was one to pull one over on me"  But I was not so mad.. more amazed and kind of in admiration of someone so skilled in deception.  I was thinking what a psychopath.. I'm not usually fooled like that... kind of amazing.  and I pondered the commentary he was making to give me 2 condoms.  I was disappointed but I love a person with a wicked sense of humor.  crazy huh.   We had really had a good time..

AS I was cleaning the place up.. I get a phone call from the guy.  He is apologetic. Said he accidently left the wrong envelop and if I would come down to the street he'd stop by the loft entrance and I could take the correct one.  

ha ha so sometimes it IS only a mistake.
But the envelop being sealed.. with a blank peice of paper (?)  that doesn't seem like a mistake.
so always count.

hugs,,,

I see one provider most of the time. The first time I saw her I paid up front. She did not count. At the end I gave her a tip. This almost felt wrong. Now when I see her now I include the tip up front. I have never seen her touch the money while I was there. I do tip well.
I also provide massages M4M. I have never asked a client to pay up front. I always get my money after the secession is over. I did get burned for $10.00 once. I never count my money in front of the client. When they give it to me I thank them like I just got a large tip. I have many repeats. I know some day I will get taken. But I perfer doing it the way I do. Have a GREAT DAY.

So are there any websites that you can list a hobbyists phone number so that other providers can avoid meeting this guy. I know this starts to delve in the territory of privacy and I wasn't sure if you could post someone's number.

Also I wanted to thank everyone for their input. Thanks

I understand your comparison of to a fine dining restaurant, but I don't think that is fair to the provider.

I never have had to ask a client for the donation, but I also don't feel like the donation should be given after the session. The same as with a fine dining restaurant, the client could simply walk out or make some excuse about where he left the money. And then it's my obligation to follow him to his car and make sure I get my donation. How would that be fair?

I held up my end. If the issue is about the actual quality of the session, would you think it is ok to lower your donation amount if the session isn't up to your standards?

Counting out money into my hand would not offend me in the least. At least I would know it's all there. This is a business so treating it as such wouldn't bother me.

As for your 2nd question, I have never been a clock watcher. In fact, very few of my sessions actual fall without the amount of time they paid for. Usually if a hobbyist leaves before or exactly at the end of the session, it's usually because they have something to do. As long as I don't have anything else to do, I don't mind spending an extra 15 minutes, 30 minutes, or even an hour with a client, especially one I see regularly.

Granted I know this might be a little counter productive since I'm in the business to make money, but I think it's just kind of natural for me. I always felt like watching the clock was kind of rude so I very rarely leave immediately after the hour is over.

I think that's why it pisses me off when someone tries to negotiate my rate, especially since I believe I go above and beyond.

Yeah, as I have been told, most guys are visual creatures and only look at the photos and maybe the rates. That's why I put it in all caps immediately before the rates stating that my rates aren't negotionable

Yes I did throw him out. I also blocked his number so that at least he can't contact me again from that number.

The crazy thing is I have seen him before, once, for 30 minutes, and had no issue with him. Then, last week I was in the process of moving and he wanted a session. I had a friend over who was helping me move, and I didn't realize the client was so close, so the client got to my home before my friend could leave.

So my friend went into my other bedroom. I thought he had went out of the patio door, so when the client asked to check the apartment, I allowed him to. He saw my friend but didn't say anything, so I thought my friend was gone.

Then he said he left his wallet in the car, but never came back. Eventually he told me he didn't feel comfortable with my friend being there.

Now I know why

Let's look at the facts: you are young, beautiful, busty and smart.

AND, as you've pointed out, you aren't a clock watcher.

If I were you, I wouldn't want any negotiating either!  Jeez loise! Your rate is already an incredible value!

You just hang in there -- and don't let the bad ones get to ya.