Quite happy to deny myself that. Lilli, while I respect your choices, other women get that same feeling after coming home from a great days work, kicking off their shoes and dropping their gym bag.
And knowing that no-one can take away the roof over their head, the money in their bank account and the ability to look after herself, should a relationship fail.
And really it's not about the proclamation if "I did it on my own", it's about being self sufficient should a partner die, or leave and the big one, what if she does not want to marry and raise a family? Maybe she is happy having casual encounters and being on her own to do as she pleases.
Forgive me for this stupid and unnecessary post, but I want to thank all the providers out there. I just asked out a coworker through email (I had no other way to contact her) and didn't even get a response, which is fine. It just reminded me of why I hobby. As long as I got the money and treat the provider with the dignity and respect she deserves, I don't have to worry about unreturned emails, with most of you at least.
Oh, and I'm sorry to beat a dead horse, but I don't see how seeing a provider occasionally is more expensive than marriage, considering it's the men who are expected to be the breadwinner and main wage earner and it is men who get fucked in divorce proceedings. This is in response to an earlier thread.
1. how many of you see a provider "occasionally"?
2. how many of you are man enough these days to have your woman at home not working?
3. you do have to do some basic math here, since that honeymoon, new car, flowers, dates, etc. didnt all happen at once. whats the per hour here? now, what would it cost if you saw a provider for as long as you were married? it isnt that it has a higher total cost, its that the cash spent over an equal amount of time would be FAR GREATER with a provider.
4. why do you HAVE to get divorced? was it your fault? if so, you are a fool and should have to pay her. but here is an idea americans seem to not know much about...MAN UP ( or woman up) AND WORK IT OUT.
Does your post has anything to do with OPs? Dude, you got problem with the century you are living in. WTF man or woman up mean other than it being fucked cliche someone popularized after hearing it in movie or TV.
2. how many of you are man enough these days to have your woman at home not working?
3. you do have to do some basic math here, since that honeymoon, new car, flowers, dates, etc. didnt all happen at once. whats the per hour here? now, what would it cost if you saw a provider for as long as you were married? it isnt that it has a higher total cost, its that the cash spent over an equal amount of time would be FAR GREATER with a provider.
4. why do you HAVE to get divorced? was it your fault? if so, you are a fool and should have to pay her. but here is an idea americans seem to not know much about...MAN UP ( or woman up) AND WORK IT OUT.
it has to with it because he mentioned it in his post. thats seems pretty relevant to me.
yeah, i ust have a problem, i dont choose to run away from any little problem like the rest of the little pansies that call themselves men. yeah, thats MY problem. lmfao.
...If it were not for providers, I would have never been able to sleep with so many wonderful women....
White...Black....Asian...Latina....Interracial...Aliens...
You name it...
Right from the legendary DCSimone after moving to DC area...Oh even before that...The first Korean provider I fucked in AMP, to my last lay..Alice of Ex DMV (now Sweet Hearts Escorts), I would like to thank them all.
Yes..even those who ran away with my money, because they taught me how to spot a RIP OFF....
So thank you ladies....
-- Modified on 7/6/2012 9:27:59 PM
I have known only ONE woman, ever, who stays at home while her husband brings home the bacon. And that is ONLY because they both decided it was time to have a child, and both decided that, since his income was more than sufficient to support the family that she should quit her (more than considerable mid 6-figure salary) job, and be a “stay at home mom”. (Excluding my grandmothers) every women I ever known…my entire life, who is/has been married or in an LTR, with a man, has had a job and contributed to shared living expenses.
My mother always worked---and, made more money than my father (after she worked to put him through college, while taking care of me, and never had a chance to go to college herself).
I’m not suggesting there aren’t still women who want a man to be the breadwinner, or men who would not have it any other way---by their own choice. But, it’s quite a sweeping generalization to say that “it's the men who are expected to be the breadwinner and main wage earner”. In the 50’s/60’s maybe. It just doesn’t fly in 2012.
And, who says men are “always the ones” who get fucked in divorce proceedings? Define fucked.
Now, if you’re choosing to be the sole earner, and you’re choosing to stay married AND you’re also choosing to see providers on top of that? Yeah…I imagine that can get expensive.
I've met many of them when I'm selling mackeral at the marina to the Tuna chasers .
Trophy Wives are also abundant in affluent parts of most , not all cities .
They do minimal cooking , absolutely no cleaning .
The good news , guys don't need to be rich to have one .
Some of them fool around .
If there are children , nanny usually does the work .
She's usually from South America or Eastern Europe .
I respect a woman that works hard .
I usually go for the nanny .
My mother always worked---and, made more money than my father (after she worked to put him through college, while taking care of me, and never had a chance to go to college herself).
I’m not suggesting there aren’t still women who want a man to be the breadwinner, or men who would not have it any other way---by their own choice. But, it’s quite a sweeping generalization to say that “it's the men who are expected to be the breadwinner and main wage earner”. In the 50’s/60’s maybe. It just doesn’t fly in 2012.
And, who says men are “always the ones” who get fucked in divorce proceedings? Define fucked.
Now, if you’re choosing to be the sole earner, and you’re choosing to stay married AND you’re also choosing to see providers on top of that? Yeah…I imagine that can get expensive.
Hey, go get yourself a trophy wife. Then fuck the nanny, and as many college coeds as will have you, and all the providers you can afford. Knock yourself out.
Just do all of us a favor and don't get butt-hurt, and go all man-victim on us when your trophy wife catches you, and tries to take you to the cleaners in divorce court.
'cause.... you really shoulda seen that shit comin' from a million miles off.
to household.
My mom stayed home for about ..3 years total and is still working. So do all my friends.
Lina
a man how to fish, and he'll fish for the rest of his life. You give him the fish, and he can only eat for that one day. Pussy is similar. Let's take away the hobby for the moment. Not all pussy is guaranteed, so, you move on. It's like that. Similar to going to the bars and clubs, you try to make conversations with some girls, and they act like your not even there. So, don't let that discourage you. Move on, and find another. There is always someone out there for you.
She may not be interested in you, but, another girl will be. P4P is just a luxury for some, and not all can afford or substitute this lifestyle. Its better if you work on your skills first, that way, you can have the confidence that if you don't have any money, at least you can always get it the old fashion way. Granted it might not always be the best and good looking pussy around, still, its free. Be safe my bro!
"Granted it might not always be the best and good looking pussy around, still, its free."
Many times, a payment of some kind is required, even if it's just buying her dinner. And I need my pussy to be good looking. I can't get a hard on without that. LOL!
Having a man stay with you if you're not hot or do what he wants in bed.
What an awesome way to be! If it all comes down to hotness, sex and money, what do the not hot and not wealthy do?
However, money isn't required in most cases. I've been to many different countries, and many people don't have money, and they marry each other on true love. I've had many foreigner friends, and their perspective of the American women is that they want material possessions, that is, money. Not all American women are like that.
I understand your point though, that you need some kind of financial support to maintain a healthy relationship. My point is, not all relationships are formed from financial interest. Some people love each other for who they are, despite their financial status.
More and more women are becoming the major breadwinner of the family. This trend will continue as the latest census shows more women than men are obtaining Bachelor's and Graduate degrees.
Back in the day if a woman was a stay at home mom with no job skills, she had no choice but to stay with the asshole who lied to her, cheated on her with her best friend, and in many cases abused her. Nowadays, when we want something from a man we become hookers and put ourselves through school one hour at a time, vs. depending on one man to support us.
After seeing and hearing so many horror stories about what you have to put up with when you lack skills and education, we decided to flip the script. Now, you have guys with sugar mommas using women for money. Ah yes, the tables have turned lol.
Being from the south, I can say I would love to be the stay at home wife/mom again and do nothing but cook, clean, and blow him when he gets home from work. I am actually content and get great pleasure in doing that, but I want to make sure I can also stand on my own if he were to get stupid.
Well, yes, I do agree that with the feminist movement, women have become more independent and it is much more acceptable to pursue careers. I think this is a good thing, but it can make settling down early in life much harder. All in all, the feminist movement was a mixed bag with some good and some bad. That's my opinion at least. I hope the feminaziz here don't crucify me. All this being said, in all the circles, I've run in, even now, it is the man who is supposed to be sure that he has a good enough job to support a family before he marries a woman, at least most of the time.
As for how men tend to get fucked in divorce proceedings, I don't feel like writing a book of a post, so I will provide a link to an interview with an attorney on this subject. Before I provide the link, I need to say a few things. This interview was conducted on a fundamentalist Christian radio show, however there is no religious content in this interview and I think it's very informative. And no, I'm not a religious person at all (although at one time, I was). I know it's bizarre to be posting a link to a fundy christian radio show on a fuck board, but there's some good information in this interview. The link is below.
It's a good interview.
Can i get an AMEN, that London would make the perfect wife...
Sometimes i just shake my head when i think, why is it soooo hard for a good women to find a good man and vice-versa.
Some may say, i need to remove the rose colored glasses, maybe so?
while i am absolutely adamant about the importance of women obtaining higher education, the drive behind that should not be the militant pseudo-feminist war cry of "so i can take care of mySELF damnit!" it should be a passion for learning, a desire to gain the skills necessary to make the world a better place, self-enrichment, something meaningful! unfortunately however harsh economic times combined with muddled feminist ideals have made financial independence the one and only purpose of higher education for the overwhelming majority. that's bad for society (run by those with credentials and zero passion), and bad for personal romantic relationships (because how DARE anyone need anyone).
so yes i am very old school in that respect...while i have a B. A. in a unique field and credentials which could lead to a lucrative career, it would never occur to me to go that route as a married woman. my place is in the home, being there for my family. my Husband is my first priority and i delight in pleasing him with all those little things...a freshly polished pool table or exotic and delicious new culinary creation at the end of a stressful work day. i still get butterflies in my tummy when i hear his truck pull into the drive...i still race to greet him at the door with hugs and kisses, taking his work satchel and gym bag so he can instantly relax. and that smile on his face (he has the best dimples) and sparkles in his eyes when he looks down on me and asks, "how's my little girl?"
who on earth would want to deny themselves of that?? just so you can say, "i did it on my own"...???
You sound like a wonderful wife! I mean that. I'm not being sarcastic. You're husband is lucky to have you. If all wives treated their husbands as well as you treat yours, would be providers even be necessary?
Not all women wish to be submissive in a relationship and make the man the main reason for being. Of course it seems very attractive to many men. I would personally but a bullet in my brain if that was how I had to live.
Quite happy to deny myself that. Lilli, while I respect your choices, other women get that same feeling after coming home from a great days work, kicking off their shoes and dropping their gym bag.
And knowing that no-one can take away the roof over their head, the money in their bank account and the ability to look after herself, should a relationship fail.
And really it's not about the proclamation if "I did it on my own", it's about being self sufficient should a partner die, or leave and the big one, what if she does not want to marry and raise a family? Maybe she is happy having casual encounters and being on her own to do as she pleases.
saturnsky, everyone has different needs and desires in their lives. and i learned a long time ago that mine are far left-field of most. but i had to comment on a trend/culture that frightens and saddens me, that has nothing whatsoever to do with what an individual may need or desire, what gives them passion or makes life worthwhile for them, but is rather based on conforming to a contemporary ideal of what a woman should be, outright fear, or a combination of the two. people either do not want to buck what is socially acceptable, or they are far too afraid to make themselves vulnerable and trust in another human being as far as they can throw them. and, imho, that is no way to live, and certainly no way for a society to function and thrive.
as i stated earlier, i am educated. i have experience in that field. i also have connections. if something were to ever happen to my Husband, or even if we were to simply separate...on paper, i should be able to be self-sufficient. i say "should" because in reality i would not have the emotional or psychological strength of will to be independent. He is my soul, a life without him is not one in which i'd have any drive. it is not one in which i'd have any desire to live, to be brutally honest. but that does not frighten me. on the contrary it gives me comfort, and even joy, because i have taken the leap and given of myself fully, and have reaped the rewards. if it does not last forever, at least part of my time on earth was spent LIVING.
ymmv, of course.
You see you would not want to live without what you have and I could not live with what you have. We are. for the most part, polar opposites in how we view women and men.
For the record I do not at all conform to what is the societal norm. Believe me, I really don't.
The only thing we have ion common is that we are biologically female.
far from indicating right or wrong, rather relect truth from different perspectives.
I find both your philosphies on life interesting, and your abilites to reflect on each others' way so civilly to be attractive.
oh i see a little more than that. we are both self-aware and have chosen to forge our own paths. that alone is more than i have in common with most western women so it feels pretty good, lol. all the best to you.
In which her husband will be the breadwinner, and she the homemaker, more power to her. I think it’s fabulous that this brings you joy. We all need to figure out what does.
But many women do not want a traditional marriage. They do not want to be in a relationship/marriage in which the balance of power is shifted to that degree. They want an equal partnership. And, when one person in the relationship controls all the money, the person who does not is completely (financially—if not emotionally) dependent on the one who does.
So, yes, there has to be tremendous amount of trust that the ‘provider’ will always, and continue to behave admirably. The problem is, that a significant enough number of men do not (look where we’re having this discussion) that women have learned, by observation of their mothers, their friends, their own experiences, the world at large, that this system can fail miserably; and does so with great frequency. And, when it does, they can be seriously screwed.
And, men around here can keep declaring that men are always the ones who get fucked in a divorce, but it’s simply not true. Take a look at readily available statistics on how many women fall below the poverty line after divorce. And, then compare that to mens overall economic health after divorce. It’s a telling story.
So, while more women gaining advanced degrees, and entering the workforce is an upward trend, it’s by no means a new trend. This has been on the incline for 50+ years.
And for the vast majority of women who do, this is not about “conforming to a contemporary ideal of what a woman should be, outright fear, or a combination of the two”. Being in a traditional one wage earner family is simply not an option for all women. Another economic reality is that, more and more married couples need to have both partners working in order to maintain the same standard of living that their grandparents, or parents did when there was only one wage earner in the family.
My mother did not want to work. She had to work. The only other option would have been to accept a much lower standard of living—which in our case would have been a drop from solidly middle-middle class, to an ongoing daily struggle to maintain necessities. A choice, yes; but, not a good one. And, damned good thing she did have current, marketable job skills because, had she not, she would have been in a terribly compromised position after her divorce.
I don’t work because I’m a feminist. And, there is no militant battle cry. Like my mother, I work because I have bills to pay. And, regardless of my sexual orientation, I would never go into a relationship in which someone else was the only wage earner. Because, I, like so many other women, know all too well how badly that can turn out.
83%* of the time the child is stripped from the father, review that 83%* of the time. I would give every dime I have for my child. Then 57%* of the time when the child is stripped from him he is ordered to pay child support. Now only 40%* of the mother are required to pay when the father he custody. To top it off if they get some support they get less. We lose more than money we lose the most precious thing we have our children.
Now since the mothers get the children by default unless the father can prove the mother should not have them or she don't want them it is easier to fall bellow the poverty line as children move the line up. Anther area men lose is 96%** of those paying alimony are men. Guys get the shaft in divorce more often than not. This is a fact. You are correct that more women are more likely to have financial issues but that is because women get payed less on average and that is not because of divorce but because of other issues in society. Guys get the shaft big time in divorce but they do have advantages in the work place. That is the facts.
*2007 source:
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2011/08/22/the-bias-against-u-s-fathers-in-custody-and-child-support/
**http://divorce.laws.com/alimony/history/gender-bias
What is personal to you (and many, many men) is losing your children, or taking on a part time parenting role; and justifiably so. It’s also true that the cost in literal ‘out of pocket $’s’ is more often disproportionally greater for men. But, it’s greatly over-simplified to say that, based on this, that men are the ones who get fucked; which implies women/children do not.
Divorce is a messy, complicated business for all involved. And, the “cost” cannot be measured, solely, by adding up dollars. Some courts may (and many quite obviously do) maintain a predetermined bias towards awarding child custody to women; I do not agree with this. I have no doubt that there are many examples in which a less biased opinion would result in a more reasonably fair distribution of child custody.
But women do not “always get custody by default”. There are a lot of reasons why women more often take on the primary care-giving role after a divorce. A court will take many factors into consideration---one being: how directly a man has been involved as “the” primary care-giver during the marriage.
I’ll say, with some irony, (and have to with some generalization), that the very type of marriage that many men [seem to] want-- (a wife like Lilli?), in which their wife stays home, takes care of the house, shuffles the kids to and from school and activities, while he spends countless hours working, traveling, hustling to bring in the primary income, is ‘one’ aspect that will, not only be taken into consideration when a decision is being made about child custody, but likely decrease his chances of gaining sole custody.
This ‘traditional’ marriage arrangement will also take a center stage in determining how financial assets are distributed. This, I completely agree with.
And, you do (hopefully) realize that there are men who are, not only woefully unprepared to be primary care givers, there are plenty who do not WANT_to_be. And, if the children are older---and this age varies by state-- the court may take into “primary” consideration who the children would ‘prefer’ to live with.
How these disputes are resolved can vary greatly depending on socio-economic status. Are we talking about a working class family, in which both parents are working full time? Are we talking about a marriage in which the husband is part of the upper 1% of the uber wealthy, with a trophy wife? Are we talking about a marriage in which the wife has been the primary wage earner, while her husband has taken on the homemaker/child care-giver role? A marriage in which one of the parents has some kind of substance abuse, or anger management problem? The possibilities are endless….
But again----divorce is not some unilateral event that fucks men while women walk away with the children, and a fat alimony check. It’s just not that simple.
For the courts to be awarding custody fairly that must be the case giving the numbers. I had divorce papers drawn back in May of 2010. I hired the best family law lawyer money can by. He told me even though I read to my child daily, took time to play with him each day, went on weekly daddy son outings, and was involved in my sons home schooling my odds of even having any custody was less then 40% unless I proved my wife was providing and in her providing was endangering my son's and mine safety. A thing that I would never do even though I could at the time. It was one of the reasons I stayed though the main one was I still loved regardless.
Men almost always lose in divorce court, a sad fact. 84% lose their children and most women work now days. Stay at home moms are rare so that does not explain it traditional roles have been dying since the 60's. Statistics of domestic violence show wives hit their husbands as often as husbands hit their wives. So try again on that. Men more abusive to their kids than mothers, wrong it is the other way around*. Men lose as the courts on as a rule give custody to mothers on a temporary basis as a default position then men have to fight to get custody back. It is how it works.
As for the children they always lose unless one parent was a detriment to the child because of the abusive behavior of one parent. The statistics bare this out big time. I will never argue the children ever win. Divorce hits them the hardest. I also will not say women do not lose as often in divorce everyone loses it is only a matter of who gets screwed hardest. Fact is most people are not happier after divorce regardless of gender.** This is despite the lion share of divorces are filed by women*** and they generally get to keep the kids.
It is true that the woman often does have a lower standard of living than the man, but I for one would live in a tailor before I give up custody of my son even though my wife is a great mother. I am very glad My divorce papers never got filed and my wife and I worked things out. Honestly I feel people file for divorce far too quickly. There is not true winners or losers just who loses the most and that is almost always the children, but between the adults depends if you rather have your standard of living*** or your children****. I personally rather have my son. Statistics do not lie men lose there children much more often than not.
*http://outofthefog.net/CommonBehaviors/MaternalChildAbuse.html
**http://www.cheatingstatistics.com/divorce-statistics/
***http://www.divorce-lawyer-source.com/faq/emotional/who-initiates-divorce-men-or-women.html
****http://www.divorce-lawyer-source.com/html/custody/fathers.html
I ‘think’ I was very clear when I said I do not agree with the inherent bias towards assigning child custody to women. I truly don’t.
I *do* think that many men have a strangely convoluted way of creating some of their own pain when it comes to divorce. “I want my wife to stay at home and take care of the kids, and defer to me, and look pretty, and greet me at the door with a martini, a hot meal, and a blow job. I also “deserve” to be able to fuck any other women I want---because I am a man---and I’m not wired for monogamy---and I bring home the bacon.”
Fast forward: I want a divorce. But if I did, my wife would take all my money.
I’m portraying that dynamic in a cartoon-ish way. But, that is the way men tend to characterize divorce, on this board.
Everyone has their personal experiences. My parent’s divorce was amicable---or, at least as amicable as these things can be, I suppose…lol. Whatever battles were fought went on outside of my view. And, to this day, whatever their personal feelings are, neither one has ever said anything close to a bad word about the other. THAT is admirable.
And it was, by far, the best thing they ever did for themselves (although, I’m sure it was painful at the time). And, I could not have been happier as I was tired of listening to the endless squabbling. So I was, by no means harmed or damaged in the process. And, not only did my mother not TAKE alimony, or child support, she never asked for it in the first place.
As far as who I lived with----I was given a choice. But, honestly?.....My father, god bless him…. is a lovely, extremely intelligent, self-aware man. But, at that time, he was one of ‘those’ men woefully unprepared to be “the primary parent”. And, I know that making that choice was painful for him. But, it was the right choice, at the time.
But that is only ONE experience. Yours is different. Which *is* my point.
We could spend the next year debating whether it’s men, or it’s women who get fucked in a divorce. Reality is: can be one, the other, both, or neither. It depends. On a lot of factors.
MY objection is to the repeated mantra….HERE, on TER….that “MEN are THE ONLY ONES who get fucked in a divorce”. This is not true.
which is why I always have and always will take care of myself. The driving force behind the decisions to get an education were not based solely on what a man will or will not do, but I would not teach my daughter to ever depend 100 percent on a man or anyone else. Why? Because when he up and leaves and you have no job skills, your choices are really limited. YOU are a true submissive, but you're also a provider and have a man who has no problem with it. You have also said you don't mind if he sleeps with others either if I recall correctly? So for you, it might be an honor to cater to a man who still fks other women, but for me that would never work.
My real reason for spending so many years in school was 1. It kept me out of trouble, 2. I wanted to accomplish something on my OWN, and 3. I have a child to think about and don't want to be providing until I am 40. There may not be anything wrong with that, but it's not for me. You have to have some sort of "passion" as you say, to even get through freaking 8-10 years of school or anything else for that matter, or you would never complete what you started. I will have much passion for my chosen career once I am in the position to work hard and appreciate it.
I am the kind of person who can't really appreciate something if it is handed to me on a silver platter, so I do still believe in hard work. That's not to say, I would not gladly do nothing but take care of a man and child, but I won't be in a position where he can walk all over me and I can't leave because OMG, I can't stand on my own.
-- Modified on 7/7/2012 1:53:24 PM
all of what you just said, should be how everyone, man or woman feels
Are we talking actual billards table here or is this a metaphor for something a bit risque? (You know, balls, sticks, etc.)
I checked the UD to no avail.
Just wondering.
(Do you mean carding the velvet? Come to think of it, that sounds a bit risque too.)
no Mr. Fisher, i was referring to the actual pool table in our rec room, lol. after a stressful day my Husband enjoys engaging in something fun and relaxing, and under his tutelage i'm not a shabby competitor. rack 'em up!
You should see what a mess I made of an innocent thread on another board when some gal asked if anyone else liked lady peas.
I know my way to the corner.