For an average looking guy, dating is the worst. Fruitless first dates, time and money wasted.  
Maybe it's where I live, but I never see hot chicks at the market. Some are at the gym, but many women dislike being hit on there.  

Plus what you are willing to date gets all fucked up.

Because they get used to seeing providers and never develop any skills at seduction, commonly called "game."  Seeing providers is easier and so it foments laziness.  Those that don't keep their finger in the civvie world (no pun intended), are going to be missing the skills they need to ever attract a woman that may have long-term potential.

That may be true of the younger guys.  But guys like myself, who just ended my second 16 year marriage. Not looking for another committed relationship is the life of choice.  
After my last ex asked me if I'm looking for a different woman,  (I told her no) and thought yes, a different one every day.
The hobby has given me the courage to have women friends, without sex being the reason for the dance.  Sex happens in a much easier way because I'm letting the game come to me in the civie world.  

a crutch that will impede socialization and marriage, as long as that is something you'd like to have happen in the near term.  We do have a society to propagate, after all.

but it doesn't fundamentally change who we are.

You chose this path, now either embrace it or choose another one.  

If you mean game as in a lack of self confidence, then I would agree with your statement.   I personally will say that the reason that I enjoy this world is because I am not required to make any type of investment of myself beyond what has been scheduled.  

Having an indifferent attitude can be useful in dating because it can be taken as the attitude of a man with options.  Women are always more interested in men with options than with desperate men

+1 MZ. Definitely well stated.

It's a sexual strategy by some all so tied to social standing that it more likely represents what they think they ought to say rather than what they actually believe.

A guy (like me) who is getting laid on a regular basis has no reason to reek of that horrible disease called "desperation"

I was making a point about the projection of a certain attitude/opinion with little regard to its sincerity, a thing SH accuses women of doing one thread down.

Who said anything about shame? It's a post divorce mindset after 32 years.  I've noticed you have been much more active and hostile here. Whars up with that?

I think we want to believe that, but I'm not sure it is the case.  Jerkboys tend to have lots of girlfriends.  Whether they are top drawer ladies or not I can't say.  But jerkboys do pretty well sex-wise.

secret to balance for us older guys when you say you let the civvie sex come to you.  I spend a lot of time at the gym, and that is where I get most of my civvie sex.  As the OP said, women at the gym HATE to be hit on, but if you play it cool and let them find friendship with you first, sex will almost always follow.  The P4P is liberating in that it takes away the pressure of always being on the lookout for a sex partner, which in turn, makes you say dumb shit that turns women off.  

-- Modified on 7/19/2016 10:41:03 AM

However, I have more of a take it or leave it approach.  I know I'm going to get laid eventually, so I just go to meetups or barhopping, and chitchat with a variety of different people.  If nothing else, I'll get some good food and drink out of the situation.  I did have one civie date recently, and it went OK, so I'll probably ask her out again and see where it goes.  I'm not riding on any high expectations, though.

Regular dating was too expensive for me to live up to the expectations of men. Also, I have met potentials in real life, and they turned out to be creepers. Too much time and frustration.  

I think that obsession of whether he'll get lucky ruins the sex. Big time.  

fruitless first dates? If you liked her and she liked you, it's not fruitless or wasted time/money.
Hitting on women at the market or gym? Try "meeting women" at those places. The only place women want to be "hit on" is a singles bar.

When I was in my teens and 20's I had NO game.  Even now, my civvie game is practically nil.  I can talk easily with women, make friends, hang out ,etc. But get them into bed?  Difficult if not impossible for me.  Yes, I am married, yes I have had year long relationships before marriage with sex involved, however, in each of those cases, I didn't choose the woman, she chose me, she initated the sex.  Me picking someone up outside of the hobby has never happened.  Not conciously.  The hobby makes it easy to get sexual gratification and prhaps my civvie skills simply never had a chance to solidfy.  Who knows.  Heck, I wish I could find a mistress whom I didn't have to pay who would be NSA, but that just doesn't exist in.my world.

As long as you don't run out of the cashish lol

I couldn't agree more!

Like I said in another response, hobbying kept my desperation in check, and made it exponentially easier to approach civvie women.  Who, in turn, seemed to really like my socially-proofed "he's been with a woman!" pheromone vibe.  I even time my appointments in the afternoons, so I can go out and pick up civvies in bars/clubs afterwards.  So of my best bar/club nights happened the same day after hobbying.

If anything, hobbying made it easier and more fun to enjoy women's company as platonic FRIENDS.  I'm in quite a few social interest groups.  There are women in those groups, obviously.  While I do flirt and initiate things with them, for the most part, I apply a "take it or leave" approach, like vantheman666 pointed out.  As well as "there's plenty of time; sex can always happen later".  I also act more bold with jokes and dance moves.  When I *know* beyond a shadow of doubt that I can hobby anytime, seducing a civvie stops being a high priority.  Heck, I don't even hobby that often, as my review history shows.  Just *knowing* that the option is there puts me at ease like you wouldn't believe.

I travelled a lot for business and was exposed to many sexy and beautiful civvies, both single and married. Over 25 years I had many intermittent GFs and some regular long distance relationships. One for 8 years. The act of mutual seduction is an incredible high. Nothing like it and so exciting to find out what the sex will be like. They did require maintanence and money had to be spent. For me it all ended 6 years ago when my wife discovered my relationship with a woman 19 years younger. I saved my marriage and swore off the GF thing. Then I discovered escorts. Sexy, professional and discrete. However, i do miss the excitement.

...that lisa has a nice, tight delicious pussy, and the only dicks she has are the ones she lets into it!

me love escorts!  fancy included!

i am divorced, and i would rather spend my time and energy on a sure (and fantastic) thing than gamble with will she/won't she, esp. as i tend to become bored with people the more i get to know them (my ex-wife was the exception to the rule, as are my few friends).

eom

My gripe with civvies my age isn't BBBJ (the male counterpart of DATY), but DFK.  In my 20's, civvies' DFK skills were amazing!  Especially with civvies in their early 20's. Skills-wise, some of them exceeded providers, with the sheer passion and sexual energy they were putting into kissing alone.  Not even so much the physical aspects of it, but the "visceral" parts.  Plus, I was new to the hobby back then, and often found myself with providers who didn't allow DFK (or even LFK) at all, which was a *big* mood-killer for me.

up my sexual game.  Just like playing with a seasoned pro, who has practiced and honed her skills.  I also,  practice and take pleasure in providing a fun experience for my partners.  Variation of partners really helps with this. I guess it's part of my age too.  Where my sexual priorities have changed.  Wanting to enjoy the whole process and not just the quest for the great orgasm.

It's not that this hobby has "ruined" regular dating for me, but rather it has *allowed* me to free myself from it. I'm 50, and I realized a couple of years ago that the last time a woman was sincerely interested to date me for reasons having nothing to do with money was 12 years ago. It's not like I'm particularly wealthy, but nevertheless, every civvie relationship I've had since then (including a failed engagement) involved my partner not being honest about why she was dating me. Not surprisingly, these experiences were unsatisfying at best, and at worst I ended up getting scammed. (And no, I wasn't dating women who were much younger than me nor "out of my league.")

There are many women, including my older and not at all hot self, who very much appreciate you exactly as you are.

THIS.  

few months of regular dating when you're focused on having fun and hooking up for sex.

they are also more attracted to guys that dont spill their guts emotionally. a little mysterious.

..and on the rare occasions on which I have revisited the world of civilian dating since I took up the hobby, I realized that my original decision to abandon civilian dating was correct.

I am 35 and I have zero interest in attracting a woman with marriage or long-term relationship potential. I plan to remain single for the rest of my life, and I cringe in horror at the prospect of having to compromise my freedom for a wife or a girlfriend. I just hobby because its a more cost-effective, low-maintenance way to get laid and free up the rest of my time and energy for other stuff that is more important to me. I don't care how good or bad my game is because it would not serve me any purpose.

"Thanks, ladies, for spoiling me and fucking me up"

...shelling out the $300-$500 for a fantastic hour with a hot provider is a better investment of your time, energy, and money than the $300-$500 that you might spend on a series of dates with a civilian who might be less attractive, might or might not put out, and might not be that good if and when she even does put out.

with apologies to W.S. for the literary license.

It always amazes me how a guy can complain about getting something that is so freaking awesome.  

i meant to imply there's absolutely NOTHING dickish about lisa!

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