Whew, reading some of the posts below about golfing... a provider wishing that men wants her bio read first...  and others.... makes me think... what is going on here.

A VERY WISE provider whose name shall go unmentioned... once gave me a lesson... this is a business - and while she really enjoys the company of some of the men she entertains... it IS a business.  no "if's, and's, or but's" about it.  You see, I was truly infatuated by her, and sometimes my notes to her crossed a line.  I finally realized that I was being offered a "special kind" of friendship by her - but not a romantic "civie-type" committment.  Her lesson to me was a very timely and good one.  Not that romantic "civie-type" relationships do not occur in the hobby - they do - but are rare.  

I actually had one of those too, which brings me to the point.  While I would love to escort a lady on a skiing trip to Sundance, or wine tasting in the Napa/Sonoma region, or rafting on a whitewater river.... sadly, both my budget and time would prohibit it.  When I see ladies saying that they would enjoy "outings" I do not take offense - but wonder - would you, if you enjoy it so much, be willing to just go - and not be compenstated for your time?  If so, would there be clients that you may make that offer to - and others... well would have to pay full freight.

One of the best dates I have ever had - hobby or not - civie or escort - was one night taking an escort to Cirque du Soliel... as my date (not an escort).  It was me, who had to keep telling himself - this lovely creature - picked me - to take her here and provide me with the pleasure of her company.  and throughout the whole evening, she was incredible - keeping my interest in all that we did.  Not sure she - or anyone - could put a price on that feeling.

One night I received a call from one of my all time favorites... practically crying.  I asked what was wrong - and she said - "I would love for a guy to take me to a movie - or out to dinner or anything....   I just want to "go out" as a normal person!"  So we did!  She just wanted to have a conversation - really touching.  Ladies - I know that sometimes we are a bit "difficult"!  but I also know that boundaries keep shifting!  

So, while it is great that the ladies are more than just a little OK with the adventure.... I would like to see that they are realistic about what they are saying.... and is it that they are seeking more than the hobbist-escort relation?

Please don't flame me... but just recognize- this is a simple question for discussion - use aliases if necessary.  And - I do not for one moment think that my experiences have been unique.  From reading posts of both hobbiests and providers, I would say that my experiences are far from unique and probably quite common.

As I stated in my response below, I have had "off the clock" golf dates with a very special friend.
Or, I should say, had, as she has moved on in her life.
But that's ok.

When we had our friendship going strong, we met for dinner dates, golf dates, lunch dates, and even spent the day at Disney World once, all "off the clock".

We enjoyed each others company in a non-sexual way and were truly good friends.

But she met someone who didn't understand or accept the idea of a male friend and she had to chose between a rich life and a good friend.
Well, she chose wrong in my opinion...LOL
but she is well off and happy.Sometimes we forget that these wonderful ladies are human and have the same needs and desires as all of us.
Sometimes they just need a hug from a friend.
Sometimes they just want to be "normal" for a while.

It can and does happen and I am fortunate that it has happened to me.

As long as you both now the boundries, it can be wonderful.

Just my opinion...
B

is to freely relinquish yourself to another.

It is our fantasies and stories of others that get us in trouble...  

So what I try and do is not have an opinion of how it is supposed to be and let it happen how ever it is...

just like my friendship with my accountant and my lawyer... sometimes I feel like I just got fucked... but we shake hands afterwards and go have a beer.

heck - the guys practice consists entirely of his friends.  Bwahahaha!

Thanks for a great post BSD, you've got mail....

who can you make it from?

I look at providers as hot friends who I give some money to and we fuck...  if they want a hand shake and a beer afterwards.... I am all for it.

Great post, I too have crossed the line. To the point it ruined a marriage (not a great one)
My issue is I would love to have relationship that includes the type of sex that you have with providers.I have dated (while married a couple providers).
The reason I am attracted to escorts is their makeup of not being hung up about sex.
My future ex was and is non sexual, whereas it is  a big part of my life.
Anyways is it realistic to hope that you would be able to have a civilian relationship with the type of unhibited sex you get from escorts.

I don't know you so I have no idea... but it amazes me everytime guys are suprised when they are married to frigid women...

I want to know the limitations before I commit... or I consider myself at fault if I don't have what I want... (sometimes I am willing to accept a limitation if it is worth it...)

So I ask and then share... honestly... if they cant take the heat.... better now than in divorce court? or worse in the doctors office trying to explain to your wife, how you caught the clap from a toilet seat...

And you are correct... this IS one of many wonderful reasons that this hobby is great!

With that said... There are some real freaks out there in civie world... you just have to put it out there... ask and ye shall recieve!

-- Modified on 11/15/2007 8:10:09 AM

not a really a fair assesment they don't always start frigid or do they present there true selves. There is always that I am going to impress and win this guy attitude.

And also there nothing to say she is really frigid but simply no longer click together.

...and providers would only be seeing loser guys who can't get laid without paying for it.
Obviously neither is the case. Human nature is what it is. People fall in love and the sex is great for a while. Guess what, things change!

like someone said courtship can be decieving... how many guys here ask their wives or future wife for a half and half?... not the kind that goes into coffee...

If you read the reviews... all of them start with kissing, the BJ then some dining at the Y and then at least five positions... How many guys ask their wives for that?  Two cups? I bet some? but not many... and remember its how you ask that counts too...

right after the baby you produced just threw up all over their shirt does not constitute the right time to say hey baby.... suck my dick.

yes some people change and life hurts... but if everyday you work on you and check in with them... and see how their work is going... well...

maybe you would be allowed to pony up the $400 for the hour of a fine professional woman...

oh and there are other reasons for divorce... none of them are simple and there are no guarentees, just places to make a stand... its your choice.

then again what the fuck do I know?

What is going on here????

The WHOLE POINT of this hobby is to HAVE boundaries between providers and hobbyists, not figure out a way to try and cross the line by breaking these boundaries down.

In a typical Hardy session (1-2 hours), I walk in, place the donation on the table, sit with the provider and engage in 10-15 minutes of idle get to know you chatter, move the action to bedroom, have great sex, (if a second pop is in the mix, we again engage in 10-15 minutes of idle recovery chatter), get dressed, thank the provider for her time and with a nice hug, leave. As long as I don’t drop dead outside her door (too many cops asking questions), the provider doesn’t give two shits what happens to me. And if I choose not to see the lady again, I will never know what happens to her. That’s the way it should be. I don’t get involved in her personal life, she stays away from mine. No boundaries are ever crossed.

Where for one frickin moment would I ever consider that the provider has not repeated her act 1,000 other times? After all, she is a provider; providing services to other gentleman. They get the same act that I do. Why would I think she would want to pursue anything outside the session? I would not even consider broaching the idea for a split second. This is the boundary that MUST reamin between us.  

The nature of this hobby is an exchange of cash for companionship. Period. The hobby is not about taking your provider out to dinner and a movie (without paying her). This is not take your provider out for a round of golf or to go skiing (without paying her). You want to see a movie, have dinner, play golf or go the Yankee game? Go call an old friend of yours, not a provider. She hasn’t got time for this off the clock nonsense. She is running a business not a charity. PAY THE LADY FOR HER TIME.

There is no such thing as a free lunch and as long as you want to hobby, you should recognize this.    



-- Modified on 11/15/2007 9:17:54 AM

you should also know that among my friends I count providers.... some I have never been with, i just think that they are way cool people, and I am happy that they are my friend.

Some are not.  Just as not all hobbiests are 'way cool'

I also respect the boundaries with my physician (who happens to be female).  I DO feel free to speak with her outside of the office (and yes I do see her frequently in town).  I would feel comfortable saying to her, "hey - ya wanna grab a bite to eat!" just as I would feel free to ask a provider who had indicated that she would be open to the suggestion, to grab a quick lunch or whatever...  

Right now, I have befriended a bunch of stripper friends.... its kinda nice to have hot ladies to share a din-din with....  who knows... kinda fun.  The gal I was with last night wants to get together outside of her club.... but I am just not available....  too much on the plate right now.

What if...

In that 10-15 minutes of idle chatter, the lady found something interesting about you, and returning home from your get together found her beloved pooch stone dead.  In her grief, she hit redial on her phone, needing someone, ANYONE to talk to.

Would you give her comfort?  Would you spend time with her, doing whatever she was interested in doing, no money, no sex?

Granted, this hypothetical is far fetched, but I'm genuinely curious.

If a provider called me after a session and was upset that her dog died, I would tell her:

I am sorry to hear about the loss of your pet..I am sure Rover meant a lot to you... but I am not sure from my end what I can really do to help you.

Frankly, I would think she was totally INSANE and out of line if she wanted to meet me for drinks so that I could comfort her over the loss of her dog. I would not go. This would cross the boundaries of our relationship.  

I pay her for her time. I am not here to socialize, get involved in a providers personal life (its none of my business that she even has a dog) or lift her spirits. I am sure she has a wonderful support group of friends she should contact for comfort. There is no need to call me. I just dont feel its my place to offer support.      

-- Modified on 11/15/2007 10:13:22 AM

I think most providers and hobbyists want feel there is something more to a LTR with each other than a slam, bam, thank you ma'am. In the eighties, I was seeing a provider weekly. One day, she was no longer around. I found out later, (remember this was before computers) that she had been murdered. She was a sweet kind and compassionate person. Not on drugs, no alcohol abuse, just a crazy ex-husband. To this day, I feel her loss. No, we weren't in love or anything other than our business relationship, but we genuinely liked each other. My advice, don't make the relationship more than it is, but don't make it less than it is either.

Hardy: there are no absolute, black & white rules on OTC contact between providers & hobbyists-----it all depends on the individuals. I had a longterm "relationship" w/ a provider---she initiated OTC phone calls with me because she had a painful breakup with her boyfriend & considered me a friend-----according to your logic, should I have told her to piss off ? This eventually led to several platonic dinner/video dates which went quite well. So did the many phone calls that we exchanged over the years. Of course the inevitable happened & the relationship broke off, but that's the name of the game.

The only hard & fast rule about OTC contact is that it's up to the provider to determine & initiate such contact-----or not.

Yes I would go.  Not because she is a provider whom I was with, but because she is human.  If she called me, it must mean there is no one else or maybe that someone else is not around, either way yea I would do it.  I understand that it is a business and needs to be keep in that light, but if she calls she is a human who need comfort,whether she would do the same for me would not be the point.  I would because she needed someone. but then I am a real softy....

you don't want anything more from this hobby than you already get... for right now it is perfect... or near perfect...

you are clear and that works for you...

nothing wrong with what you are saying... I am guessing here... but it is maybe the not married guys who have the stripper.provider friends... not all, but most.

Again they are lucky to have wonderful human beings in their lives.... it is a rare bird that would allow their husband to go to dinner with a provider off the clock... or on...

So don't sweat it... keep it as it is for you... and let those who choose different thing in their lives be.

It seems clear from all of the above emails that you have a set of experiences that differs substantially from many of the rest of us.  

In my own case, I have a better time if I get to know a provider a little and I find her to be an interesting person.  Like somebody else said, this is true, whether or not we've met.  For example, I've never met Little Bit, JC or Layla and find them all very interesting.  

Given that providers are actually people (go figure), perhaps a few might find their clients interesting too.  If so, might it possibly be that on occasion a provider and hobbyist would enjoy sharing something wholly independent from their sexual relationship?

I realize this would complicate matters, however, some people actually have fairly complicated lives and might know how to handle it.

My goodness, you begin by saying "The WHOLE POINT of this hobby is to HAVE boundaries." Seriously, if the whole reason you are hobbying is so someone can set boundaries for you, I'll set some, you won't have to leave the comfort of your home and you can just send me a check.  I won't even charge you by the hour.  You can just send the same amount every month no matter how many boundaries I set.

Really, why hijack this wonderful thread with such drivel that you couldn't possibly believe yourself?  Do you want us to take pity on you?  Shouldn't your post really just have been a new thread on which is better, GFE or PSE?

Upon rereading this, I realize that it may be received as somewhat inflamatory.  I sincerely hope that it does not as I only wanted to convey my staunch disagreement with your assertions.

For me, the whole point of hobbying is to have a good time with a beautiful woman. That can take on whatever characteristics that two consenting adults are comfortable with.
The only "rule" in this hobby is that there are no rules.

I have a feeling your post will get a lot of attention.
Posts that seem to denigrate the providers seem to inflame.
When you put the providers into a category that is outside of normal people get pissed. problem is most providers will separate themselves from hobbyists and rarely have OTC relations.
Catch 22.
They separate themselves then get miffed if you separate them.
What sucks the most with an OTC relationship is: Who do you talk to. civies will shun you, hobbyists will look askance and providers will act like there shouldn't be any problem with it at all.

I know I ramble, not quite stable today.

There are clear cut rules to be followed and everyone knows their place. Fortunately, I(and many others)don't live in Hardy's black and white world.

Limit or boundary testing is a natural part of any relationship. Where meaning is created, positive or negative, is how each person, in the relationship, handles it. It's happening even in a hug or kiss. Whether with a provider or a well known civie, it can be difficult, for me, to determine who initiated it, probably because of both of our expectations of it happening. However, when one becomes satiated and breaks away is not always when the other has become satiated, and that person must adjust and allow for that limit. In that moment, one can feel a range of emotions from acceptance to deep disappointment, but the limit must be respected. These such moments are microcosms of the macrocosm of the relationship, and are happening from one second to another in a nearly continious flow. Perhaps there are times when the sum experience and meaning of them redefine the official, or preconceived experience and meaning of the macrocosm.

not a day goes by when I don't sit and think, I should have picked up the damn phone and called her.  As was, I e-mailed that AM.  but I feel that I did too little.

and now?  there are others.... who I feel that they need even the sound of a human voice.....  that cares beyond the envelop - Not a biggie in the total scheme of things.... .

-- Modified on 11/15/2007 1:18:38 PM

I wrote this to gauge the range of experience - and there is quite a range.  What I do find surprising is the number of people who feel isolated to the point that they are starved for true genuine human intimacy (not sexual intimacy- rather shared joys and sorrows).  When I first married, we shared those joys and sorrows... but as we grew apart - we shared less and less.  

as I say, for those who find some genuine human intimacy in this "hobby" I find joy.  For those that "merely exchange an envelop" I am truly sad.  there are many many delightful folks in this hobby - none of whom take away the exact same experience.... but none put in the exact same contribution....

it is a spectrum... but clearly many in this hobby seek human companionship.

The real appeal of a gentleman's club was the combination of hot, semi nude women, and the attention that they gave the guys (well, me in particular).  I always knew that it was in trade for cash, but it felt good to have someone tell sweet lies to me.

I never minded the gentle knee to my groin, but the attention was at least as appealing.

I guess, comparing myself to Hardy, we're probably very different people.

What a great post!

I have given the GFE equation much thought and these are my views.  Personally, I enjoy knowing my clients lives.  As we get to know one another the camaraderie grows and so does the sexual intimacy.  Now, there is a danger when you introduce two like-minded sexual beings that a romance could bloom and that could cause all sorts of havoc.  This is where the money plays a crucial role.  For me, the money doesn’t buy a sexual favor-or my time, per se- it buys us BOTH a healthy boundary.  I wish there wasn’t such animosity, on both sides, toward the cash.  It lets you enjoy a warm, romantic sexually adventurous woman without engaging in a full-on romantic relationship and for the provider, it let’s her enjoy a smart, successful man and still not feel her female tendencies are being played for pussy.  In short- men use love to get sex and women use sex to get love.  When the money is there- it makes the intent (sex) clear and makes way for true interactions from both parties.

For those that are married- you probably had that sort of companionship when you were first together but over time, people tend to drift away and while you may love one another completely- you just have become different people who love one another but are not IN love.  Basically, like so many in these types of marriages the parties involved are victims of improper planning and the effects life has overtime.  It takes planning to make sure you don’t grow apart and our society is just now starting to take notice.  Money, kids, careers, in-laws, illness, etc. all take a toll over time.  The fairy tale endings we are all fed as children are possible but making them reality takes good planning and good decision making.  So, here you are- 15-20-25 years later- living with someone you adore and one you don’t want to hurt but you feel stagnant, unattractive and romantically dead.  You could, end a partnership that has been otherwise successful over the past years for the purpose of finding that romance again or you could try to find a way to make yourself happy and still maintain your marriage.  After all you have history- kids, a home, and a life you both have worked hard to build.  What to do, what to do?

You could take a mistress and all the drama that is involved with that little adventure or you could seek a pro.  Enter GFE provider stage left.  At first it’s nice to feel the passion of touching a willing, attractive woman again.  Then you begin to search for those that DFK and are more “girlfriendish”.  You haven’t gone on a romantic date in years, so you begin to think that it would be fun to go out- enjoy a meal with a beautiful woman and feel the “butterflies” again without the risk of harming your primary relationship.

With that said- I offer extremely reasonable rates for longer appointments.  Because I don’t want to burn out on this “job” I am careful to enjoy myself.  Going on real “dates” and knowing my clients well helps me have a healthy mental state and makes me feel I am not just a vessel for sexual gratification.  I know- this is a job- but it’s not like any other and I am a woman after all- so I have to make sure my tender sensibilities are not offended to the point of making me bitter.  So, these types of arrangements work well.  I do have unique relationships with each of my clients because they are- unique people.  It keeps me happy and willing-and it gives them romantic and sexual intimacy they are missing.

Just my $0.02.

XO
Melanie

-- Modified on 11/15/2007 4:25:35 PM

-- Modified on 11/15/2007 4:25:01 PM

They will let you know if/when you're too close to crossing their line. I know a provider and hobbyist who go to church together every Sunday for Pete's sake. If the escort/hobbyist relationship was always strictly business, stuff like that wouldn't be happening.

"In short- men use love to get sex and women use sex to get love.  When the money is there- it makes the intent (sex) clear and makes way for true interactions from both parties."  Which nicely sum up much of male-female sex and love, well....  there you have it.  Well said.  and for my $0.02.... well, you missed your calling... you could do well as a writer... those lines were well worth reading... true or not, they give one something to actually think about...

Thanks.

Melanie, I know you so this may look like shilling, but I feel compelled.  I would like to thank you for your eloquent posts. While I typically enjoy your writing, with this last post, you have outdone yourself.

Eloquent, sensible and heartfelt.  Thank you for sharing!

My wife (a provider) has lines that guys try to cross all the time, they are in love or lust or maybe they just like the fact that someone actually listens to and appears o give a shit what they are saying... (key word here is APPEARS)Truth is she couldn't give a shit about what she hears or tell you what they had talked about a week later if her life depended on it. She is an actress at work and it takes her a day to get into "character" then a day to get out after she works (she only works 2 days a week 2 calls a day) like she says, she has a life and does not want to get lost in the world of her line of work. Most clients only know the actress not the real woman with real things going on in her life... the actress has no problems, kids, husband, etc... the real woman may have all of the above and want to keep it all seperate.