here is the scoop.

 i'm currently 31 and single.  she is 40 and single.  i used to work for this lady (she was my boss) for 2 summer internships while i was in college and
 after i graduated...i was about 20 when i worked for her.  we had a great working relationship and she respected my work and i respected her as
 my manager.  as i grew professionally the next year, i later worked for another company but we were still working in the same area and we would
 have lunch together....not everyday but maybe every 3-4 weeks.  our discussions during lunch were always casual like you would have w/ friends.
  we never talked sex, relationships or love life.  discussion was more around work/movies/vacation/career/sports/life general/family etc.  after 3-4
 years of going out to lunches, we eventually went to dinner for 1-2 years...about once every 2 months.  again very casual discussion which you
 would have w/ your friends...but she tells me very personal stuff that i know she would not share w/ others so i know she trusts me.  every time
 we went to lunch or dinner...i always had to make the call...she never called me and asked if i wanted to go to lunch...i always had to initiate
 it...so its been a very one-sided friendship in that sense...but

 i have always seen her as a friend but about 2 years ago, i told her i was interested in her...and told her i loved her.  when she told me she was
 not interested i thought we would just continue being friends...but that didn't happen.  i called to see if we could have our normal dinners...but
 she wouldn't return my calls and i would continue to call and leave voicemails or try to reach her...i don't know if she got freaked out...but i was
 trying to salvage the relationship and she probably perceived it as "what's wrong with this guy".  then i would send her emails asking why i was
 being treated differently than before...basically asking her "why"..."can't we still be friends"  when this went down 2 years ago...i decided i would
 lay low and not call her for about a year...i figure i let the friendship cool down and give her some distance.  but lately i wanted to try and
 continue the friendship or have her tell me to end it...i asked her if she wanted to end the friendship and she didn't answer...but i told her i was no
 longer interested in her but just wanted to be friends...but i think she is having a difficult time believing me on this.  we have recently talked more
 but every time i ask if she is interested in dinner she will give me a reason which i believe is to blow me off... i feel like i'm getting the run
 around...i leave her voicemails and they don't get returned.  i need to call her and only talk when she picks up the phone.

 so with the info i laid above...i need some advisement.  anybody gone thru a similar life experience and can advise what i can do. i just want the
 friendship to continue cuz she is a great friend...and am no longer interested in her. the thing that really bothers me is that our friendship is about
 7 years strong...you just don't throw away seven years...just because someone says they are interested in you....do you?  

 female advisement welcomed...i need a female perspective.  i want the friendship to continue so please provide any solutions or maybe a different
 approach.  i don't want to end the friendship unless that is the only solutions.

 some of my thoughts as to why she is acting the way she is are:

 i do wonder if the age difference between me and her is a concern...almost 10 years?  and the fact that she used to be my boss?  i also wonder if
 she is also a lesbian as i have never seen her w/ guys friends and she has always had female roommates that look a little butch...what do you
 guys think?

 sorry for the long message but i needed to provide the background info so you guys are informed of the situation and can advise appropriately.

 thanks

-- Modified on 6/1/2002 10:54:15 AM

Hello Searching For Fun,

It seems that your friend leads a rather complicated life, and perhaps there is too much going on her end that makes her indecisive.

It had been my experience that when you attempt to cross the line of being platonic to romantic either one of two things can happen.   A happy ending -- you and that special someone connect on all cylinders, and the relationship is relatively smooth sailing; or a sad ending where there is no romantic chemistry, and on the flipside it taints the platonic relationship as well.

From your post, it seems to me that perhaps your friend was having second thoughts on taking your platonic relationship to the next level.  It appears to me that she is confused, and NOT a good communicator.  Playing the "hide-n-seek" game is a cop-out.  By you persisting in asking her for dinner -- that puts her on the fence.

My recommendation, try and meet with her for coffee/tea in a comfortable setting for a heart to heart conversation (no lunch/dinner - she may construe that to be a date of sorts putting pressure on her.  Then lay it on the line, tell her exactly how you feel, what bothers you, etc.  If she has substance you will get the answers you seek (but, perhaps some that you DO not like).  If she is not amiable to a meaningful dialogue -- it's time for you to MOVE on to green pastures.

I think you need to just leave it alone. The friendship seems to be very one-sided. If you had to initiate all the lunch and dinner invitations, then I think you had more of a desire for the friendship then she did. Being friends is just a different type of relationship, but like with any, there has to be a give and take.

Did she ever just call you up out of the blue to see how you were doing, wanted to hang out, go to a movie, talk about BS, anything? Did she ever take an interest in your hobbies, desires etc. These are things friends do. They enjoy each other's company and desire to be around and make each other a part of their life. It doesn't have to be an intimate exchange to care for someone. It sounds to me like this was more of a one-sided thing on your part.

I don't think her being your ex-boss has anything to do with it for the mere fact the she is your "ex". There is no conflict of interest. If there was, she would never have allowed herself to go to lunch or dinner with you.

If you've been around this lady for as long as you have and can't tell if she is a lesbian or not is interesting. Trust me, if she was you would know. Don't take that cop out route that a lot of guys do whenever their affections are not returned by a lady. If I had a dollar for every time I heard "she doesn't dig me so she must be gay". Sort of goes with a guy thinking he is God's gift to a woman and there must be something wrong with her if she doesn't like him. Most gay lady's I know are very open about their sexuality unlike men who may tend to keep it in the closet longer. Trust me, if she was gay, she probably would have told you if she shared personal things that you indicate she would not tell other people.

The age difference may be an issue but in these days, it’s more sociably acceptable for an older woman to be with a younger man. Being that you pursued it, may be a turn on to some older women. If she was interested in having a relationship with you but was concerned about the age difference, chances are she would have told you that was the situation. It has been my experience that women are more open to dialogue about their fears in a relationship than a man would be. I think you may be off base there.

The only thing I can offer is that she truly does not want a relationship with you and figure that since you pushed so much for a reason why one could not be had or even a resumption of the friendship, may have made her conclude that emotionally you can't handle the truth. In her mind the best thing may be to cut off everything for fear of leading you on.

I'm Out!

Now Hit my Music!

think it is a good policy to post duplicate of messages this way or not.  I've noticed a few others posted this way during the last couple of weeks.

i told her i was interested in her...and told her i loved her.

You must first go out on a romantic date before you can say the L word.
No wonder she is pushing you away.  Hopefully you have learned this and refrain from the L word until the moment is right.

recommend if you want to be her friend get engaged to someone else. She may feel secure again.

Karma Sutra,

Why are you encouraging this man to continue stalking this woman? Don’t you realize men like Searchingforfun will take any hint of encouragement from you or anybody else and continue STALKING her?

SeachingForFun please leave this woman alone and find someone to help you get through this.

You gave a lot of information, so I'm assuming you're looking for honesty. I haven't read the other responses yet, but if they say anything different than this they're wrong.

You don't need any advice on whether or not to end the friendship. This woman ended it a long time ago, you just haven't realized it yet.

When a "friendship" with a woman goes on as long as it did with you in the first place, she's never going to sleep with you.

A woman decides in the first eight seconds of a relationship, whether or not she's going to sleep with you*.

When a woman decides she's going to sleep with you, one way or another, it's going to happen within days or weeks - not years.

She never gave you any indication that she was interested in you to the point that you don't even know if she's interested in men. Believe me, she's not gay. If she's gay, that's the first thing she would tell you to get you off her case.

You leave messages that she doesn't return and yet you think you need advice. She doesn't want to talk to you. You just aren't getting the message. You're a stalker.

Quit it!!

rik

*This quote is stolen from Tom Likas

-- Modified on 6/1/2002 3:09:33 PM

Those are my sentiments exactly.

Look, SearchingForFun, we all care and have gone through this stuff ourselves.

Please back away from the girl!!!

...so we can all enjoy and learn from the interaction without having to hunt for it.

Look at this, I've broken my own request.

rik

can you be honest with us when you can't even be honest with yourself? No longer "interested" in her.......B/S!  Wake up and smell the coffee.....SHE IS NOT INTERTESTED IN HAVING ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOU.  Why do keep pursuing her for "friendship"?  Would you try so hard if she were a male friend? Of course not. She shows good judgment in staying away from you.  LEAVE HER ALONE; but we both know you won't. What better proof that you have a problem here?

all, thanks for your input.  when i say i am not interested in her in a sexual way or wanting a relationship...i am honest about that.  her friendship is important to me and that is what i want to continue.  she is very special and a friend i would truly miss.  plus she is a good person.

regarding stalking...far from it.  i'm not at her house peeking in...but i thought about whether i was stalking by trying to contact her a few times a week...but what gets me is that i think she would have told me if she felt like she was being stalked...i would not do anything to hurt her.  the times i have talked w/ her...she has always told me to call her back...and i'll ask if she will be in the office...and she would respond "call me tomorrow...i'll be in all day."  now if you wanted to get rid of someone...would you say that?  if she said get lost...i would get lost...or maybe she is having a difficult time telling me to get lost...maybe it would ease the pressure if i told her to be very direct w/ me and let me know her true feelings.  in our previous discussions she was concerned that i was stil interested in her...but i told her i wasn't...i just wanted the friendship to continue...and i think she felt a little more comfortable by me saying that...i did ask her it she wanted to end the friendship...and she didn't yes or no...just never answered it...i do think this is a very difficult situation to communicate about as when i am direct with her...she clams up and doesn't really know how to answer.  i agree w/ the person that said she communicates poorly...but this is a situation that may make her uncomfortable.  

my friendship w/ her is very interesting...in the sense that its a friendship based on lunches and dinners over a 7 year period.  we have never gone out to see a movie...or gone out during the weekend.  its always been weekday lunches and dinners.  but over a 7 year period you get to know somebody pretty well.

regarding whether she is gay or not...she would never tell me this.  this would be very private.  i am far from being god's gift to the world.  i just thought she might be gay since she is still single, i do not believe she has ever been in a relationship...otherwise she probably wouldn't have gone out to lunch or dinner with me...and lastly, she always seems to have a female roommate.

regarding, double posting...i double posted to get as much feedback as possible.  sometimes people on the LA board don't look at the general discussion board and vice versa.

now with this additional info...what do you guys think i should do?  if she told me to get lost...i would do so...and i have asked her directly and she never answers it...it may be a difficult decision for her to make which gives me a sense that she still values the friendship.  because if she didn't, she would care about my feelings and tell me to get lost.

-- Modified on 6/1/2002 3:56:15 PM

Scoll down to the section below on "daty" Read all of the advise and instrctions. See a number of providers and practice, practice, practice. After you become an expert have a couple of the providers email her and tell her how good you are. Then call her and tell her you would like to dine at her place. If that doesn't work drop her and just stay with the providers. Most of them are absolutely delicious and hassle free.

…this guy can't even be honest with himself. Who knows, maybe this woman is trying to let him down easy, because of the long acquaintance, or maybe she has her own pathos that keeps her from being direct. She's obviously an attention whore for stringing this guy along for so many years. "Friendship," my ass. She certainly doesn’t need to feel like she’s being stalked for the guy to be a stalker. And being a stalker doesn’t mean peeking in windows, though, I’m sure SearchingForFun has thought about it.

But like you said, there’s no chance he’ll be taking our advice. What better proof that he has a problem here?

i would not try too hard if she was a male...you got a point there.  but it may be that she is the only female friend i have...and that is why it is difficult to let go...but at the same time...she is just great person to be with.

she doesn't call me...but when i call her to talk...she always tells me to call her back when she needs to go.  is she a attention whore like riker says...i doubt it...but is she saying this stuff to lead me on...i don't think she would do that and that what puzzles me about the whole situation.

maybe i need to have a heart to heart discussion with her over coffee rather than dinner.  coffee will lessen the pressure than dinner.

thanks for the input.

but nothing you have said indicates to me you had anything more, including a personal friendship.  The relationship ended a long time ago, but for whatever reason, you cannot acknowledge it.  Reminds me of the concept of ghosts that walk the earth because they don't know they're dead.   What you have is a ghost of a relationship -- a memory.   If you think you have anything more left, it's time for you to consider psychotherapy.

Look....You've heard basically the same answer from about everyone who has posted a response, regardless of how they've phrased it.

It doesn't really matter whether you consider yourself a stalker or whatever, but all semantics aside, it DOES seem to be that there is more at play here than you've stated.  That's OK too, I suppose...but it's time you faced some reality.  This lady simply has no interest in you...as a lover, a friend, or whatever.  I suspect there's a good chance she hasn't been 100% upfront with you about this simply because she doesn't want to hurt your feelings.  Or perhaps she's made it pretty clear from her point of view & you haven't grasped that.  

The bottom line is that whatever good feelings she may have had about you at one time will only be destroyed by you continuing to attempt to make something of this where nothing exists.  The past is the past, it's not meant to be lived in.  Learn from it & move forward...apply whatever lessons you can to the present & the future, you'll be better off if you do that---as far as this or any other experience is concerned.

And you might also ask yourself why it is that you have no other female friends.  Is this type of behavior, which borders on possessive/obsessive, typical of you?  That type of thing will turn anyone off...regardless of gender.

I disagreed with massagegirl at first but now you are starting to sound like a stalker. She isnt into you. And all you are doing now is giving her more reasons to dread your call. Yeah she says call me when she has to go. I had an plumber come to the house today and when he left I said see you later even though I hope I never see another plumber again in my life. Leave the poor woman alone. She isnt interested.

the first eight SECONDS? Good grief. What a thought process that must be. I'd like to think some women mull things over longer than that.

There have been several men I've known for years and years before I slept with them. One guy and I were friends from the age of 12 to the age of 23 before we slept together - and I mean GOOD friends, took trips together, hung out together, called each other at least once a week. Of course once we did sleep together it was a disaster and it ruined our friendship but that's not the point.

There have been plenty of other men I thought were utter idiots or complete assholes upon first impression who charmed me much later on (yes, weeks, months even years later) Then again, I've not the one-night stand type, in fact although I'm certainly no prude, I've never had a one night stand either.

And to call this guy a stalker seems a tad harsh. Obviously this was someone who meant something to him and letting to of a friendship is a hard thing to accept.

Obviously your relationship has reached an impasse and it isn't working any more. Whether it's because of what you said to her regarding your feelings - I'm not sure. But from what you've said it seems obvious you need to back off.

Don't call her, don't go by. If she wants to contact you, she will. I know it's tough to let go of a friendship of such long duration, especially if you don't understand why or how but sometimes it has to be done. I've lost several friends this way and it's tough because you don't get that sense of "closure" when someone won't just cut to the chase and say "Get lost!" but I think her actions are speaking louder than words.

MM

Tom Likas is a radio talk host who's syndicated out of LA. Like the antithesis of Dr. Laura, he gives "getting laid" advice, as opposed to "relationship advice." I took his comment somewhat out of context.

This was referring to a date. When a woman goes out on a date with you, she knows within the first eight seconds, whether or not she's going to have sex with you that night.

This assumes she already knows you, has seen you before, has been asked out on the date and has accepted. She's probably decided whether she's going to have sex with you before the date even begins. I don't think in that context that eight seconds is stretching the point.

The point I was trying to stress is that she’s had more than ample opportunity to engage in the relationship, friendship or otherwise, and has not chosen to do so. She seems to be clearly communicating that she has no interest.

I'll give you the benefit of doubt and attribute your actions to being fairly young, at age 31 and are not a stalker. Some ladies when confronted with a situation they are uncomfortable talking with you about, or just don't want to deal with your involvement, will just simply cut off all contact. They will not respond to ANY of your pleas for an explanation. Don't take it personally. Just let it go and try to understand that she has some reason that she is unwilling to talk to you and does not want to have to deal with you or see you again. She thinks you should get the hint immediately, but being a young male your ego has been bruised and you want to redeem yourself and still remain friends. Sorry, but it's not going to happen. She has her reasons and you searching for the answer will only drive you crazy. Leave her go and don't blame yourself. Find another lady to be a friend or lover or whatever. Leave this go now.

SearchingForFun,
I don't really think you're a stalker, but you're leaning in that direction. In any case the advice is the same. Even if she isn't giving you the loud and clear message that the relationship, whatever it has been, is over, you owe it to yourself to find out for sure and you owe it to her to give her a break.

The ONLY way to accomplish both of these things is to never contact her again. If she calls you, you'll know that there may still be some interest in friendship on her part. If she does call you, it may only be as a test to see if your over what she probably perceives as an obsession because you used the word love. So don't fall right back in to the pattern of calling her every few days. Wait for her to call you again. You owe it to yourself, if nothing else to let her carry the relationship a little, if there is going to be one.

I have had romantic relationships with female friends after long term platonic relationships. It seems there was always some level of attraction and one or the other of our circumstances was never right until the moment happened. Or else she was on the rebound from a bad relationship and I was there to comfort her as usual and it turned into something more. So I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but you haven’t indicated that there have been any apparent barriers like these on her part, and it’s been a long long time.

Whatever the case, giving her space – lots and lots of space is the only thing to do at this point.

Best of luck,

rik

Hello Searching For Fun,

I can FULLY empathize with your predicament.  Making acquaintance is so easy.  However, establishing a solid friendship take time, and commitment.

As mentioned before, "cool off" for a while.  If and when she contacts you, suggest connecting for coffee --- NO lunches or dinners.  Have a serious heart to heart.  And then, based upon the discussion take an OBJECTIVE course of action.

When you are friends and a confidante with someone for a longtime without being ever romantically involved, chances are that when you try to advance your relationship in that direction -- either you score BIG or you'll GO HOME.  That's the gamble you take.  Transitioning from platonic to romantic back to platonic is almost impossible.

The only other recommendation I have is to expand your network of friends.

Take care.

i know she is not interested in me...and that is fine.  what i am trying to do is to salvage the friendship.

if you are comparing when you say "see you later" to a plumber that you have only met for one hour or two...and charges you  $50 an hour for clogged pipes which probably upset you to begin with, so there is no friendship w/ your plumber to my 7+ years of friendship....i don't need your advice...you are clueless.  

common, how can you compare a 2 hr. job w/ a plumber to a 7 yr. relationship...your'e not understanding my situation.  when you say "see you later" to a plumber...you don't care if you see that person again...i would say the same thing...

mistress M...i think you understand best what my dilemma is.

thanks for your feedback.

having closure is important to me...just letting time pass is difficult...i let a year pass where i didn't contact her...i would rather be upfront with her and have her tell me to end the friendship...but i have thought about it and i think it would be unfair to put her in a position like that...not many people have an experience where they tell another person they want to end a friendship...most friendships i know that end basically end due to friends becoming busy with their own personal/professional lives that they slowly drift apart till you don't call for a week, then a month, then a year and then for several years...and before you know it...your'e strangers...and it odd for you to pick up the phone and talk to your long lost friend.

regarding stalking...i'm not a stalker...when someone thinks they are being stalked...they are usually fearful of the stalker for they will be harmed...i'm not gonna hurt my own friend...common people...if someone was fearful of their life they would push back strongly and even raise their voice and yell to say get out of my life...regardless of the friendship.  the fact that she never raises her voice or displays any anger at me tells me she still respects me.

the feedback from this board indicates that the info i have provided would cause you all to be concerned and you all would probably say get lost or say..."your'e stalking me....stop bugging me"....but since my friend hasn't said that to me indicates she still does respect me as a person...and that she does need more time.

rik, you nailed it...i need to find out for myself so i can move on...and at the same time i understand i need to give her space....just balancing between the two is very difficult.

your suggestion of just waiting for her to call...has been the problem...i would rather know now rather than passively thinking she might call "someday".  she didn't call within a year so i think the friendship may have ended...but i called her after a year of zero contact to see how she was doing...and she sounded sincere and told me about how she was doing.

greywolf...good feedback.  thanks.

you may be right that she isn't 100% upfront...that is why i was thinking she may be gay...or possibly when i said i was interested in her...she got scared...and didn't know how to handle it.  she is a very private person and what i said to her may have been taken wrongly.

i definitely have learned from this experience.  my behavior toward other females is not the same as how i treated my friend.  i treat my friend with more attention and care...since she is really special.  i think the fear of losing the friendship is hard to accept because i don't know it would end.  i understand romance that doesn't work can end a friendship but since she never gave it a try really has me puzzled.

She is a guy... thinks like a guy. Not sexually attracted to a friend. A friend who thinks in terms of love "Love" freaked her out. Sabotaged a friendship. Sucks.

No way can the djin be forced back into the bottle. Why do people screw up good relationships with LOVE... I've done it myself. Hurts like a sumbitch and not just in me but the lady was hurt too.

Sorry for your loss.....

Sorry to dog you man but you dont seem to take hints real well. I am starting to think this is all a puton anyway.

friendship in a non romantic way. Ever since I said I loved you, our relationship has changed and we are no longer friends. That is understandable, that made friendship very awkward. I no longer feel romantic towards you, but I miss your friendship. Should I continue to contact you, or would you feel more comfortable if I didn't and we just went our separate ways? I understand and accept whatever choice you make."  Bottom line, if all else fails, try honesty. Problem for you Searching is that she doesn't trust you or your motives anymore, and neither do I. "I'm a friend; no wait, I love you; now I don't anymore" ..... talk about B/S.

purelust...i did exactly as you said...basically word for word...i asked her if we should go our separate ways...and she said that as long as i'm not interested in her anymore...then we could remain friends...this happened about 3 months ago...and i have slowly started to communicate w/ her w/ 10 min phone calls every 2-3 weeks...but when i try and ask her if she wants to go out for lunch or dinner...that where it seems like i hit a brick wall.  i think the solution is to just not ask her out to lunch or dinner and just continue w/ phones so that she can get comfortable with me again...i think i need to continue to build the trust...but thats the hard part...i call and we talk and then she'll say she has to go but to give her a call the next day but i'll call...leave a vm...and then i don't hear from her...so go figure...i'm just wondering if females play this way and are not as direct as males...or maybe she is playing me like a fool and as someone mentioned...trying to get my attention by treating me like a dog.  its just hard to think she would treat me like this.

anyway, i thank all for the feedback that was given to my dilemma and i'll think about what i will incorporate to handle this situation.  i'll keep you all posted on how things go.

Well, she's avoiding seeing you and your phone calls, and I can tell you from experience in my own life, that I have been in several situations where someone wanted ... "friendship" or more, with me... and I didn't want it back.  Sometimes it's easier to avoid them than to tell them straight up how you feel... it's *hard* to confront someone on that and many ladies would prefer to let it just fade away then get into a big scene over it. (And I think you may just radiate "big scene!" vibes!)  More than likely the gents above are right and this lady for whatever reason, and whatever the context of your relationship, is trying to *kindly* brush you off.  Stop calling... I'm sure she knows your number, if she wants you, she'll get in touch with her.. but leave her alone and leave it up to HER.

Hugs*
Nicole

You say yourself that it would be hard to tell someone "our friendship is over," and yet you expect this lady to do so... you expect her to yell if she thinks she is in danger, but honey, you've never been a woman. When you're dealing with a rejected man, OFTEN it makes lots more safety sense to ease him down gently then to tell him to phuck off... much better than setting off a fuse so that he goes completely psycho. JEEEEEEZE honey what's it take for you, a bat upside the head??? Leave her alone!

Nicole

It really does not take a huge amount of trust to meet an old friend in a resteraunt for lunch, dinner, drinks, or coffee... that's her way of brushing you off... leave the girl alone!