The average joes want her to look past the superficial, their looks, weight, imperfections into who they are inside as people. They complement her on her supermodel looks and stunning beauty.

I wonder if an overweight frumpy chick showed up as the "prize" whether they would be as excited to go out on dates and hopefully get chosen. Just because they are average joes doesn't mean they aren't superficial.  We're supposed to feel sorry for them because they aren't studly but how can you feel sorry for a bunch of guys whose only criteria for a woman is looks.

They make all these claims on feelings, falling in love, feeling lucky to be there, when basically, they don't even know her. She could be a meanspirited bitch.

There is something about watching this show that rings off bells parallel to this industry. A bunch of guys that line up at the door of a supposedly pretty girl based on word of mouth hoping to get some action, all competing for her attention and the prevailing criteria of why they are lining up is her looks.

I'm sure all the guys on this board who are single could meet a wonderful lady just like the average joes could in a real setting but instead the decision is to spend one hour or a fixed amount of time with supermodel in an artifical setting rather than spend a lifetime with a regular person and have something real. What that suggests is that people would rather live in a fantasy world than in reality even if the "crashing down effect" (that feeling the guy once described some guys have just as you are walking out of the hotel room and to your car) is often painful.

Married guys, it's a different story, you are there for the discretion but for single guys, do you ever feel that maybe the reason you are single is because you pay for time with model types rather than try to have relationships with average janes.(I for one am no model type, just a jane, but quite a few women in this industry are "modelish").

Maybe it's not anything erotic you are addicted to. Maybe you are addicted to the quest itself, that quest for the ultimate woman and maybe that quest is the hobby. Maybe your hobby is a result of your inability to negotiate what perfection is in your own mind. And for the married guys, maybe the hobby isn't about getting needs met. Maybe it's about feeling you settled and that there may be someone out there who is better your match and maybe you are hoping there is.

Just some thoughts to knock some wind into your work week.

HB




-- Modified on 1/13/2004 12:11:35 AM

Wow! You bring up some very interesting observations and thoughts. You may have overlooked a blatant reason why we ALL are here hobbying rather than persuing a regular relationship.
WE'RE ALL GETTING EVEN!!.
  Yup! In the hobby an "average Joe" can bed the supermodel or "Bond girl" where in real life he is forced by Darwinism to rummage for the scraps left by the more charismatic and often wealthier "alphas" Even if we "average" males are lucky enough to win the love of a "model type" lady the chance is she will tire of us in a few short years then tear our hearts out by leaving us then finish us off by having an attorney clean us out financially.
  The Ladies here have for the most part had the rug pulled out from under them by one or more men in their lives so they are figuring "Hell! I might as well make bank while giving them what they want".
  Femminism has tought women to be bitchy schrews to men. Wives were once the calming, cohesive force that enticed the husband to come home to a serene seperate peace each night. Now they are a competitor rather than a partner. Unless a man wants to raise children(a HUGE liability)there is NO winning or plus side to a traditional courtship, marriage.
   You mention HB the "Crashing down point" when we are leaving the hotel or driving home. Very true. I feel it every time I hobby. Then again; What joy was there for me when after putting every penny I saved into a mortgage on a home and dedicating myself to be the best stepdad I could be The wife told me that marrying me was a mistake.
   Yes you are right HB we as a whole are shallow and would rather live in a fantasy rather than a reality. Men like HOT women and women like rich men. Since we all can't get what we want we settle for a percentage of it.

  Cm.  
 

Average joes and janes, alpha males and models--you guys are providing some thought-provoking ideas. However, I'd submit that it's even more basic then that: men want sexual companionship on demand. I don't expect a perfect 10, nor do I want one. They tend to be too self involved for me to tolerate. I do expect a well-kept woman with common sense and personality to fill a void created by loneliness...as well an intimate encounter. I can see her when I choose and not see her when I don't want to be bothered. And I can indulge in the variety that hobbying offers.
I can see both of your points and perhaps agree; but I'd conclude that it's this sense of machiavellian self-satisfaction in our human nature that drives this market--we all get what we want at a cost.

There's a reason why it's the world's oldest profession.

I'm just wondering if it ever occurred to you that maybe some of us also become SPs for that same reason:  to get even! Instead of waiting around for a guy, (SO,) to call, or worse yet waiting around for someone to find favour with me and ask me out, I put myself on the market and my phone rings all the time.  Instead of trying to work out a sexual relationship where we're BOTH happy, (which can mean being frustrated because the other party wants stuff that just doesn't do it for me, and all those kinds of complications,) he now has to ask me in advance, I have to agree to it, and whether or not I'm satisfied physically, my compensation is very concrete.

In other words, it takes a situation - human relationships - that are fraught with uncertainty and disappointment, where we really have NO control at all, and puts it into very straightforward, and seemingly controllable terms.  So just as hobbyists have the illusion of control over the situation ("MY money, MY terms,") so do SPs.  When in reality nobody has control over anything, it's a triumph of quantity over quality.

-Anya

"it's a triumph of quantity over quality"
 Is that why no matter how many times I hobby I'm still looking for more?

You are right on, Heather, about single guys, even though some might be in the hobby because their career doesn't allow time for relationships at the moment.

A beautiful face and a dynamite body are great to look at and touch, but for me, it's what's inside the woman's skull that makes all the difference. If I were to just design a body of preference, it would be curvy and voluptuous. But what a great difference attitude, personality, playfulness, sensuousness, sense of humor, and intelligence make! I'm an "Average Joe," and I would much rather spend time with an "Average Jill" with whom I connect, with whom I feel resonance, than a super model who's indifferent, boring, or stupid.

There are so many points and thoughts (I envision a spoke, or a ripple effect) that can be interjected here, but one thing I wanted to start with is that it doesn't have to be as a result of a negative. It could just simply be, as in my case, 'whatever works'. We are all the product of where we've been, the roads we've been down.

Over the years that I've been divorced, and single (going on 14) people have wanted to fix me up, get me in the dating scene, etc. only to understand later that I really MEANT IT when I said that I WANTED to be single and WANTED things the way I had, and still do have them. It's what works for me. It isn't always rosy, and it sometimes leaves a hole, but what DOESN'T?

I am not a person who likes ordinary, common or mundane. You might as well shoot me. I am not a person who wants to 'settle' for anything, as long as I can make it otherwise, and I would NEVER want a man to feel that he 'settled' by being with me. And that's what I see a lot of - people settling, and it makes me nuts. That's why I turned my life upside down last May, is because if I have one shot at designing how I live my life, it's gonna be right NOW. Not to digress..
Being single is my destiny, and I KNOW it. It is what allows me the freedom to propel forward in business, in my interests, it is what energizes me and keeps me sexually charged and interested, though granted, not always warm at night. Things have their trade offs - you just decide which/what. Even in my personal life, my relationships are not 'real' - they are arrangements, agreements. Although minimized, they have their share of disappointments, and heart ache, as anything else - for as long as it involves people, there will be pain.

We talk about 'average joes and janes', but to me it is all about attraction. What has kept me in the relationship I've had the last four years? Intense "moth to flame" attraction. I don't know whether the need for attraction is good, or bad, but I can say one thing I've learned about myself is that as long as I'm attracted to a man, I'm interested, and keeping a Gemini interested, is a task in itself! LOL Attraction doesn't mean he's gorgeous - as I've pointed out before that some celebrities I'm attracted to are not necessarily good looking - it could be their attitude, their drive, their spunk, I dunno. But, attraction is big with me, and I suspect that's what many seek outside their relationships at home - that burning feeling that gets the heart racing - that magnetic draw as I say - "moth to flame".

In a correspondence I had yesterday with a man who's splitting with his wife, he stated they were always good friends, but he never had 'the hots for her'. That's a classic example of what I think people do, and why it remains a tad 'unsatisfactory' over the years. Face it, we want our engines 'revved'.

one would give to the current model, Larissa in Average Joe 2 : http://www.nbc.com/nbc/Average_Joe:_Hawaii/gallery/index.shtml , an 8, 9 or a 10? and what should her rate be in the current environment?

I am inclined to give her a 10 based on my previous rating criteria. (Larissa looks better on Video than her photo shots.)  (The previous Average Joe model, Melana is an 8 (8.5))

As for donation rate, it could be all over the place.

On a more serious note.  Several months ago I had a conversation with an almostly gorgeous looking young woman about looks and relationships.  She had a couple of bad relationships with pretty boys closed to her age.  She mentioned that as far as she is concerned, if a guy she met is a good person, she can definitely fall in love with him.

Being a realist, I told her that in a long term healthy relationship, physical attraction is an important part of the equation.  If there are vast gaps between the looks of a couple, it would be extremely hard to sustain a loving relationship involving sex.

After thinking about it for several minutes, she agreed with my assessment.

Life isn't fair.  There is no point in deceiving oneself from the reality of human reactions and emotions.

Those are some really good points. But again, there's generalizing for ya. I never dated a guy who made more than 30 grand a year, even before I had children. I always saw rich guys as arrogant men who put their identity in their acquisitions and that they might eventually leave to find someone younger or more modelesque. Sorta a "boy with all the toys who is never satisfied", maybe my own insecurities but I've always dated average joes, usually geeks or manual workers. My ex was a cook who had to work 2 $7 an hour jobs cooking until he eventually just stopped working entirely. But money was not the reason I left but rather his substance abuse issues.

I would say being in this hobby has taught me otherwise in terms of the rich man. Rich guys can be really nice, compassionate and adorable but still, they are always on the phone, or busy and have very little extra time. Business is always a higher priority than the small things in life, like taking a walk together, playing air hockey or going out for burgers and in the end, with a rich guy being the prima donna that I am in terms of attention, I'd just end up feeling neglected.

But then again, you'd have to understand my upbringing. My parents were low-middle class in income and my mom spent all her time raising me and doing volunteer work for a hospital. By 13, I was volunteering with her until I hit 16. And when my dad came home from his 8-5 job, there we were. We were a tight knit family, each other's companions and so my family unit example was one where time and attention superceeded material possessions.

I would admire other kids big houses and their parents expensive, cushy cars and my Dad would always say "But do you see anyone home in that house? The kids are home alone (latchkey). There parents are out working."  And he was right. The older kids raised the younger kids and they had to hire tutors because the parents didn't help the kids with their homework. They had a lot of material stuff that eventually fell apart and in time, in some cases, so did their families. Divorce, overwork, exhaustion, kids feeling neglected, doing drugs, etc.

I am an escort because I can follow in my parents tradition of at least being home more than I would if I had to work 3 jobs to support the kids on my own. While the unit is not exactly the same and my parents do spend a lot of time taking care of my kids, I have been able to balance and juggle a household.

I don't feel men are entirely superficial. Once they have been burned by beautiful, materialistic women, they may come looking for women of substance. So it's the cynical single guy on this board who's biding his time, until he finds a woman who doesn't define a man by what he makes.

For the most part, I don't think escorts are materialistic. Most are romantics. Now, some might be lazy or spoiled but I wouldn't say materialistic. They have also seen the negative traits you might find in a rich guy and why in time, they might have fleeting eyes. What's the point in falling for a rich guy if he's not into making a relationship last? If he's holding out for the next hot chick? Then basically, all the time you spend with him is just lost time you could be spending with an average joe. Within that time, you could get married and have a couple of kids and some great times together. While my marriage did not work out, I am blessed with 4 beautiful children and a lot of good memories, sure plenty of bad ones but I'd rather be struggling with 4 kids than rich and alone.

All the women on these shows are pretty hot and why are they single? Because they are holding out for the Prince, perhaps. The risk they take is if they hold out for Mr. Millionaire, they might eventually be dumped by him because he wants to play the field. Look at Mr. Wine Country. Now, she spend 1-2 years of her life on him and has a cool experience to show for it but she's 2 years older. If she spent 10 years with him just "hanging out", she's be 10 years older with nothing to show for it but clinical depression having to go back to that studio apartment to live with her three 32 year old girlfriends. AND A TICKING CLOCK. It's better to be an old maid with kids and a history of marriage and life's experiences. After all, all the single moms are not looking to have anymore kids so they'd be the perfect catch for a guy who does not want to start from scratch again with a pregnant wife and raising a baby.

By the time I start dating again as a single woman with no baggage, all my children will be in college so I only have to wait another 12 years. Within 12 years of being an escort (mock dating), I can sock enough money away to send my kids to college, start a business and retire. So, in my case, I ain't holding out for shit. I got it covered. But luckily, I found a way to take care of my erotic and social needs for the short term.

If you notice, on this board, in the beginning of finding the hobby, guys are looking for the hottest chicks and then eventually some get all burnt out and take some time off and then come back again as strong as ever. The longer they are in the hobby, the more their rating system changes. Yes, they still want to sample the hot girls that are hype of the minute but in the end, they have an ATF and an ATF is basically, "my favorite lady. one I would actually hang, chill or date if I wasn't married or the situation was different". ATF's are rarely just "best heat, drop and go". If you notice, guys take their ATF away for the weekend or see her regularly so apparently there is a connection there that wasn't there with the other girls. But would a guy leave his ATF to see a hotter escort with the hope she might be a new potential ATF when there's nothing wrong with his current ATF? Sure. Rich men, average joe, poor boy sandwich, they ain't happy with what they got. Just like a car, they want the new model or at least they want to drive it once. But if they can't afford to buy it or find out they don't like the feel (head room not adequate), they'll go back to the ATF vehicle. Just hope it's still in the garage and that it runs.

And just for the record, women are always trying to change men just as men are always looking to see what model is on the market. It isn't because women aren't happy with who you are. Men like to dispose and get new. Women like to find the basic solid features that are of value to them, buy the thing and then customize it to their liking.

Some really successful, handsome attached men are extremely neurotic (indecive, think things too much), spoiled, self-centered and difficult. When I get to know them better, I'm happy to send them home to their wives or girfriends after a few hours. These women at home taking care of these type A men...are working hard to earn their support. These guys are high maintenance, full time jobs. Can you imagine following someone around all day and agreeing with them? Yes, dear. Yes, you are brilliant. Yes, you are studly. Yes, I do think you could takeover that company. Yes, I think you should go away and try to work that merger. I think I'll get the pool serviced while you're away...yes, Ramone, the latino boy with the strong arms. He's their best worker and I know how you want the best honey.

I have known a few hot babes that married rich guys to have cheated on their husbands with someone broke who had a lot of time to pay her attention. So keep in mind, you don't have to be out there slaving to earn all that money because eventually she'll just leave you for someone who can offer her less money, time and better sex.


-- Modified on 1/13/2004 11:33:12 AM

Well don't ya think?  

-Anya

That's it-  we're going to In-N-Out and back to your place if I ever come see you!

I don't think guys are looking for intelligence being number one priority though. If you met someone smart with no heart, I would say that would be a cold relationship.

I would say people are looking for someone they feel safe with, at least for a long term relationship. And everyone's definition of safe is different. Now that doesn't mean safe, as in won't go on a roller coaster ride or try new things safe. Some people don't feel safe in static environments. Some dig change and to be kept on their toes.

Women don't want to feel he'll eventually leave and perhaps that is why some women choose money, because they fear he will and they want to be left with something. Pretty sad if you think about it.

I think what men are seeking in a woman isn't perfection. It's acceptance for who they are with the ability to push them to learn, grow and experience. "After I met her, I got a better job, lost 10 lbs, became a better person...."

A man likes to see his life change for the better.  And if a woman inspires him, she will hold a special place in his heart forever. She may even appear "perfect" when essentially she's just a catalyst that helped him change his life. But we know, she didn't "make" him happy, she showed him an option he didn't know existed.

HB

-- Modified on 1/13/2004 11:53:10 AM

There must be some initial criteria for a male to choose a female or vice-versa.  Since our initial contact is usually visual, this is how we initially express interest in a potential mate.  I believe that, for most of us, looks is more a detractor than an attractor.  By that I mean some peoples' appearance is not pleasing to certain other people.  

Once we get to know someone, the importance of looks is diminished.  We have all known someone that we first met and didn't think much of their appearance, but once we got to know them, we saw them in a totally different light.  And what about the great looking person who is so arrogant or concieted that when we see them we are really turned off by their looks.  

I don't think we can be too hard on ourselves for doing what comes naturally.

Not everyone needs someone to look like a swimsuit model to be attracted to them. If they did, I would surely be out of business!!!  I have met lots of men who physically did not do it for me but whom I am very attracted to... I'm sure many women could say the same.  

More interesting is the need to rate everyone on a numerical scale. How about just saying "I find her very attractive," and leave it at that?

Are there superficial people in the world? Well, obviously. But we are not all that way.

Best,
Tamara

So says a stunningly hot woman, so beautiful that men pay to spend time with her. "Why can't we all be more deep, less superficial? Isn't it the case that these men are being hypocritical, because on the one hand they judge her to be desirable on her looks, but on the other they expect her to judge on something other than looks?"

Yes. We could be more deep. If we were women.

Hey, I got lots of fat ugly female friends. I know them very well. I respect them. I value their opinions. They're great fun, they probably know how to give good head, they're open about sex and they're really easy to hang out with. I still don't want to fuck 'em. They're fat and ugly, and I'm a human heterosexual male, or so says my biology. Can't change that fact.

So, it's a nice dream, that men might some day adopt women's criteria and start to treat women as though ... well ... as though hot bodies were beside the point. But they aren't. And if they were beside the point then you, Heather, wouldn't be making any money, now would you?

I genuinely used to swallow the PC dictum that we "should" all think about something other than that shallow / evil / male thing, physical appearance. I dated girls who were somewhere in the 5 to 7 range as far as my own preference for "looks" went, but who were great friends, or people I respected, or just folks I "happened" to hook up with (heh, alcohol, ya know ...). I always went into it with an open mind, trying to convince myself, "Hey, looks are shallow, and people age anyway. But character is deep. I should try to be attracted on the basis of character."

Ya know what? It didn't work. I couldn't "talk myself into" finding them sexually alluring. I didn't want to fuck them, no matter how much lingerie they wore or didn't, no matter how soothing the background music was. In the long run, all I did was set both of us up for a fall. For them, they learned the hard way that the dick doesn't rise for just nothin, and it must have been a disappointment bordering on total self-esteem annihilation to be lying in bed with me having to hear in a truly visceral way, through the body itself, that they weren't sexually desirable. No beating around the (ahem) bush, they just did not do it for me, and there was no hiding that fact. They learned painfully, that they'd been living off lies all their lives -- "if he really loves me, he'll want sex with me because I'm a wonderful person on the INSIDE" or "I want a man to desire the REAL me, not JUST my body" or ... blah blah blah ... it all didn't work.

For me, though, it was an even harsher comeuppance. What I was trying to do, was submit to the PC marketeering. I was attempting to beta-male-ify myself, tell myself that my own innate desires were sub-par, that all I had to do was try a little harder and I too would want nothing more than to cuddle with a cow whom I shared protest marches with. But guess what? Trying to be someone else destroyed my sense of self. It caught me in a terrible bind, where everything I thought was true had to be denied, where living was totally a lie, where sex itself was a chore, not a pleasure. And where (worst) I was learning to be brow-beaten by the male-haters of our culture, trying to SUBMIT to them and make it easier for their misandrist agenda. I was TRYING to help them out, by trying to prove how "deep" my lust could be.

It was a bad plan. It doesn't work. Later on in a relationship, mutual respect and even comfort can lead to sexual enjoyment. But if the sparks ain't there in the first place -- and for me, they ain't BECAUSE of what she looks like, among other things -- then they will NEVER be there. I tried to perform according to the PC agenda, I lost my young adulthood to it, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

As an intrinsically "all male" natural alpha-type, my experience was that it was a real life destroyer. Maybe other men are more comfortable than me at "submitting" or at "changing" their visual preferences. I suspect not -- I suspect 9 out of 10 bachelors at bachelor parties throughout the midwest isn't thinking "Gosh I got a hottie, not perfect but I'll keep her." I suspect he's thinking, "If only I try a LITTLE harder I'll stop needing her to be more sexy than I think she is." That's what this agenda of "be more deep" has changed into -- a destruction of something that ought to be founded on initial attraction, but for many men no longer is. Every married guy from my high school class bar one (the class clown) ended up with a woman who is "less" desirable than him (on the basis of gender-specific criteria; his worth, her looks, etc.); and every one of them has that hang-dog, shattered, shy, depressed look on his face. "How did I get myself into this fix with such a cow?" is what seems to be running through his head.

Sure, it's shallow. It's also impossible to change. Let's find the benefits of it, use it as we can, and share a happy world together. Let's not rail against it, especially since some of the railing actually hit close enough to home that it changed, ineradicably for the worse, the lives of people like myself. If I knew the agenda was misandrist, I wouldn't have willingly submitted to it while I was in college -- I would have thought to myself, "hey, they don't have my best interests in mind." But, like Heather, the PC-ites announced themselves as working in my favor -- "do this and you'll be happier," when what they meant was, "do this and I'll be happier at your expense."

Never listen when a woman TELLS you what she thinks she wants. Watch what she DOES respond to.

Her website probably doesn't suggest that her rates are lower -- or even free -- for men who take her out for burgers, right? She'll talk all day, as do most women, about Prince Charming, and then lubricate for Brando on a Harley.

"men want sexual companionship on demand."

Yeah. That's pretty concise. Makes it all purdy clear.

Last line was a kick. Overall, I liked everything you wrote and appreciate your honesty.

But if some dumb bimbo with a fine ass starts aging and gains 100 lbs and you married her based on her looks, then what are you going to do with her around the house? Hope she explodes? Spend the day explaining why Chicken of the Sea really IS tuna fish? I'm not saying you need to have einstein to boink. But I'm saying if you move a 28 year old stripper into your house and she's stupid as shit and you aren't, in about 1 month you are going to be pulling the hair out of your head. Anna Nicole Smith is hot but she's annoying as all hell. If I was a guy, I'd love to bang her but I could never spend the night. On the other hand, Diane Sawyer is alluring, even at 60-something and as a guy I could imagine waking up to her and talking about current events over cereal every morning but I may not want her to strip for me, coat my **** in chocolate and lick it off.

You shouldn't be dating women who you have no spark with in the first place.

HB

I'm not a guy so I don't know what women are on the regular dating scene but I would hope you'd find sexy women who have a lot to offer you, the full package of intelligence, looks, honesty, a good sense of humor and that spark you seek. If you aren't meeting them, then you need not give up. Your life isn't over yet and the hobby does not represent the entire spectrum of women on the market.

Keep in mind, I'm a mom of 4. Would you date me? Nah. But as a fantasy for an hour, I work. And I'm happy with that. Very happy. I wouldn't want to waste a lot of time with someone who couldn't accept the package of who I really am and I lay it on the line right away. But I'm direct like that. I don't have a bait and switch. You need to target what you want and go after it. If you don't want to date cows, then invest more time at the gym or at places you might meet women of your liking. If all your female friends are cows than what does that mean? You attract fat women or find something you enjoy about them. You might be a magnet for cows or maybe YOU are their ideal man. Maybe you are the target trophy, an articulate laywer desired by fat, ugly women. Life could be worse.

HB

-- Modified on 1/13/2004 7:23:37 PM

I remember going out on a date(civilian), with this gorgeous guy, and by the end of the evening, I thought he was just ugly. His personality sucked big time. All he did was talk about himself over and over, and all I could do was think how lucky I was not going to see him again lol Yes, it's good to be attracted, but lets face it, if the personality is dumb as a doorknob, it just doesn't happen for me at all. The personality is also what attracts me, and infact, is what keeps me interested. Looks fade after while (in my case with him, his looks just went out the window in over an hour at dinner), and if he doesn't keep me interested in any other way, I am out the door.

Mel

Exactly. I think we actually agree. The thing is, I misunderstood the PC-police, and thought that the way to happiness was to castrate myself. That's what most of them want, anyway, so I guess it's no surprise how their tactics led to those types of conclusions ... heh ...

Basically, my hope would be, that I "fell" for someone because her looks were "good enough" that a boink was possible; and that through the course of our blossoming relationship I was not only sexually satisfied, but also involved in a deep interpersonal relationship with a human whose interests and outlook nicely complemented mine, to the extent that a deep love developed. Then, as she aged and changed AND SO DID I, we'd both work together on our interactions. That's called love, ain't it?

What I had set myself up for, contrarily, was that all the "blossoming relationship" and "mutual respect" part was possible, but only in the ABSENCE of my sexual satisfaction. I hadn't bonded with people whose looks were "good enough" (whatever the fuck that would have meant). Frankly, I knew a LOT of hot women who said "no" when I asked 'em out, and therefore could only get a "yes" from someone other than the hot ones. For a long time I said (I think it even came up on this very board) that I'd never experienced an overlap in the population of women-who-want-to-date-me and women-whom-I-want-to-date.

And another thing. Maybe I'm not literally looking at ONLY their looks, when I say "good-looking enough." Maybe I'm responding to some kind of hidden internal spark. I know, for example, that one of my 6s was later rated as a high 9 by other men she dated. She had big tits; I'm not a tit-man.

Anyway, that's a sad state to be in, this "sexual attraction isn't allowed to apply to your decision making" thing. I think part of the reason the REAL catches passed me by, is that I was so busy "proving" I was a-sexual -- thinking it would endear me to them (heck, that's what women SAY they want -- a man who isn't all over-horned up, a man who respects them for something other than their body alone, a man who isn't just trying to get at her pussy), when in fact it was simply betraying me as a mealy-mouthed waffly wimp who was in self-denial. Busily being not-myself, because I thought they'd like the not-me better.

Where we differ, is simply in the application of the sexuality. You'll never understand what it means to be a highly visual male. I MUST have someone with a certain body-type. I just CAN'T fuck other sorts of people. I don't like it, and I don't try to defend it. But it's me. It's a fact. It's unchangeable.

So, when you ask, "But if some dumb bimbo with a fine ass starts aging and gains 100 lbs and you married her based on her looks, then what are you going to do with her around the house?" you're missing the point. Yeah, that's a risk. Yeah, that's a disadvantage of the method I'm using. But I CAN NOT IN ANY MANNER CHANGE MY METHOD. So, why bother pointing out its weaknesses? It's just another form of PC-ness, suggesting that what I'm doing isn't what you'd do if you were me because (the implication goes) YOUR method of thinking is so much, umm, DEEPER and BETTER than mine.

It's the same as asking me to change my lungs from aerobic to anaerobic. "Hey, what if you marry someone and later it turns out that her internal digestion creates a vacuum of oxygen around her body so that you can only get close to her if you can metabolize chlorine gas? What are you gonna do then?" Geez, I guess I'll just have to be unhappy with her ... :P

Seriously, so far I haven't made the mistakes of many American men. I haven't gone EVEN FARTHER down the "wimpify myself" line, to the point of marrying someone who only wants me for my money. I haven't married anyone, not a human who will change or one who won't. I'd have liked to have been able to respect and love a special woman in my life, and I'd have liked to have been able to get really sexually horny with female partners. But no woman who is physically appealing to me has ever willingly entered my bed without, also, requiring an hourly fee. It's as simple as that. If I had met one of my more positive provider-experiences in civilian life, she would probably not have made it possible for me to get an orgasm, or an interpersonal relationship, with her. Women pick poorly, often more on the basis of "panache" and skill at pick-up, than on the basis of any form of valid criteria, whether those be the ones women THINK they should use, or the ones they actually DO end up using.

It's sad, really, and writing about it makes me feel very very lonely. Reminds me of being the little guy in High School, unable to get a date because I was so much shorter than all the girls, always being told "You'll make a great partner for some lucky girl some day" (and always knowing that this statement implied: "For some girl uglier and less socially well-desired than me. And certainly not ever for me. But I'll let you help me with my homework so I can free-load your attention a bit more, if you'd like.")

Don't think men are the criminals in this arrangement. We can't "fix" our shallowness. It isn't shallow. It's human. It's good, and it's right, to be yourself. The crime comes when you try to be someone other than yourself; or, worse yet, use your power as a PC-policeman on campus and in a young man's life, to try to convince him to be someone other than HIMself, merely so you can propagate a misandrist agenda for the benefit of your own academic and social career.

I have no sympathy, especially not for hot-looking women. The world is their oyster. If you REALLY meant you'd like to meet intelligent men or sensitive men, you'd be hustling for IQ or EQ points, not for dollars, on your website.

What gave you the impression I was a lawyer? Hmm ...

Well, the thought has occurred to me, that I somehow "attract undesirable people" into my life. Some self-help books suggest that "great people attract other great people," but I've always been bad a making friends or initiating relationships (I'll bet the hobby is full of good-catch men AND WOMEN who are simply weak in that one, bottleneck of a skill, initiating). So I end up somehow implying through my actions that it's OK with me to hang with, date, marry someone I'm not interested in. I don't mean to mislead people this way; but I do notice, that much of our society doesn't listen at all to unattractive and middle-aged or older women, even though they're just as likely (or more so) to be intelligent and to have valid opinions or strategies or ideas. So, I'm just giving every human his or her fair share, it feels to me like; but then I end up being the geek-magnet, because I'm the only guy in the office who actually listened when the geeks talked.

It's really a great skill to have, in many endeavors. You end up with this secret little support team of "real people" rather than the social climbing of the backstabbing beautiful people. But you also end up without hot-looking girlfriends.

That you'd take the PC thing so far as to feel like you were "castrating" yourself. I cannot imagine why doing what "they" say would have such far reach over your life, but I'm glad you decided to find a path that is right for you. That's what everyone needs to do. But gosh I wish you guys would stop trying to speak for EVERY male, and keep in mind that those girls you were unattracted to are probably found attractive by someone else.

I still don't think that sexual attraction is looks based only... in fact I know it's not. I very much appreciate that it's part of the picture with you, but looks ALONE are certainly not enough to maintain sexual attraction throughout the duration of a relationship.

And, on the other hand, some of the best looking gents I've met are horrible in bed. I guess they think I'll be so busy mooning over how "hot" they think they are, I won't notice the lack of sexual creativity, stamina, and passion. I do!  

The wonderful thing about this world is that it takes ALL kinds, and while I certainly do not think you should ever "settle," I also don't think you should ever narrow your options. You just never know who or what is on the horizon for you!

Btw, this statement "If you REALLY meant you'd like to meet intelligent men or sensitive men, you'd be hustling for IQ or EQ points, not for dollars, on your website."  Well, that would fit if this were a personals website we're talking about, darling. We're not!

Best,
Tamara


-- Modified on 1/14/2004 12:25:08 PM

I think you need a good cry. And I don't think you are a shallow. You just met some real bitches. Pardon me, but you are a mess. You had some bad experiences and so you don't believe you can find a hot woman who has it all. Well, you are wrong. Your attitude is going to rule out half the good chicks out there.

Let's say I totally had it going on. Am I going to want to sit around having dinner with a winer or a winner. A winer is a guy who brings up negative stuff. A winner is guy with a vision even if he's working at AM/PM and going to college at night. You have no vision. And man you are already there professionally so you have no excuse for wining.

You had a woman take you for half of what you had. Well, I had a man who wouldn't work, still won't work, won't pay child support and doesn't want anything do to with his kids. We're long divorced. Does that mean all man are bad, NO. It means I married a loafer. And maybe you did too.

Let's start here. You need to be a little more self confident. Hi, Jane from Yahoo Personals. I'm an intelligent attorney from LA looking for a mate for life. I'm not a cynic and I believe in love but I had some bad experiences so I'm a bit jaded. I am open to having a sexual relationship early in the game but if that's not something you want and we click, I will respect your wishes. (and you best do dat). That's the truth. Lay it out there. When you see an oxen coming at you, run. You already said you don't want an ox.

Okay ditto. Single mom 4 kids. Ho and film producer. Business background. Seeking dynamic professional with vision for long term loving relationship.

Do people respond, sure. But they can't handle all that. So my issue is baggage and I don't drop or hide my baggage to lure men. Do I want an ox either? No, actually, Brando on a motorcycle but I think that dude is taken.

And stop knocking my web site. That web site is not advertising "Heather Barron, for a long term relationship" just as your law firm is not advertising Gene Zucherman or Larry Filpot, the man, husband and father. Heather Barron is a business. That web site is a marketing tool. But that doesn't mean I don't have a life apart from HB just as I'd assume you have one away from legal work.

The problem is you are generalizing. Now, you might be on target with men's need for good visuals and wanting hot women but you are off target with your generalizing about women and money. If you are eyeing models and struggling actresses, then keep in mind, they have no stable income. Pick a lady with a regular 9-5 job. She doesn't need your money. She has her own. Find a woman with her own identity and her own dreams that do not depend on your loot.

And on the sex thing.  Cows who withhold do so because they fear you won't be back. If a hot woman is good in bed, she's going to fuck you soon because she knows she's got the good stuff and that chances are you'll be back. But if you aren't back soon enough, she'll be taken. Many of the guys who are good in bed are taken or poor so once I've had the single guy who can't fuck, it's not likely I'll be back for more. I would date a broke guy who could fuck over a rich guy who couldn't. But then again, sex is real important to me. Would I date a rich guy who could fuck over a poor guy would could fuck? Has nothing to do with rich or poor, good conversation, things in common. But I'm not supporting a man again nor do I wish to live off of one because I know how loafing feels on the other end.

The question you really need to ask yourself is "How can I be a better fuck?" "Am I being the best fucker I can be?" If you are then find a good fuck who you have things in common with and whose company you enjoy but do expect her to want a long term relationship and maybe marriage because women are clutchy, possessive and put their hooks on good dick. The first thing you need to tell women is "I am the best fuck you will ever have." and you must mean it.

If there was a way you could figure out how to fuck hot women from yahoo on the first date, you could eliminate the bad fucks right away.

I'm a reverse thinker. I'm my 30's I decided that if the chemistry is there and the first date good, it's best to get the sex out of the way. If the sex sucks, then I just tell them I have 4 kids and that I'm a ho. If the sex is good, I tell them I'm entrepreneural, a celebrity and make my own money.

Eliminate them based on the sex if that is what you are going after. Stop wasting all that time on getting to know them. You'll both want to get to know each other and find a ton of stuff in common if the orgasms are monumental.

I have never had great sex with a low IQ guy. I'm not turned on by stupid men unless they don't speak much English and then I just assume they are brillant.

You keep telling us all this stuff you want out of a woman in terms of heat, looks, body and sexuality but can you deliver the goods? Turn the mirror on yourself. Would you fuck you for free on the first date and want to see yourself again?

Whoever takes you on, has to deal with this constant voice "She wanted me for my money and dumped me when I earned it saying I was a bad husband. I trust no one."

God, I can't even see your dick. All I see is that bitch living on the sea in your friggin house.

HB











-- Modified on 1/14/2004 2:39:08 PM

somebody on this god damn thread is a lawyer. i read it fast, i type fast. i'm not rereading but someone said attorney.

As in First, **** all the lawyers?

Love that HBXXX-

Sully- man the supplicant...

Something rang your chimes. Bitch in my house? Lawyer? On the sea?

You've got me confused for someone else. I think you're bringing a memory of a past conversation to this one, but you're misplacing it.

Sure, there was some disagreement in my post. But I didn't "whine." I explained my point of view, and in fact agreed with you. You started the whole thing, with the PC police game of telling men we should think more like women, now din'tcha? And I still have no sympathy ...

I love reading your posts. Agree, or disagree, not necessarily material - I just enjoy how you express yourself, and don't hold back! You make me smile, you make me laugh, you make me almost spit out my drink - but one thing for sure, there's no guessing what you're saying!

You say things many might think, but don't necessarily say. When I read your posts, I see many people in my mind - from past to present, and say, 'Yep, that's for sure'.

When I was a young, marriage-able woman in my 20's, I was told I was going about it all the wrong way. After all, I seemed to always start with sex, and I should be starting with friendship.
You made me laugh reading about how it has to be rocking in the bedroom first! Yes, back then, it had to be rocking in the bedroom, and if it was, I'd put up with all the rest, or make it fit!

Now, as a comfortable, mature women, it STILL has to be rockin' in the bedroom, but it's great not to be worried, or interested in marriage! LOL! And, guess what? The friendship is outstanding..

Ohh..to do things over again with what we know now..would we?