Hello, all.

I generally post (when I post) to the DC Board, but I figured I'd toss this out there to cyberspace.

Recently, I've started "hooking up" on occasion with a professional colleague, generally if I know I'm going to be staying downtown overnight.  It's a new situation, for me, 'cause I'm married (long story there, obviously), and outside of providers, I don't have much experience with "relationships" infidelity (ie, I've been a hobbyist, but have only dabbled with "affairs").

Now, this woman tends to blow a little hot and cold, and frankly I've been considering ending it for a couple of reasons.  But that's not the question I'm proposing.  It sets out a little background.  

Because she's uneasy with the situation (she doesn't want to be the "affair chick" [her term, not mine]), she's tended to keep our physical relationship very simple and black and white (one of the reasons I'm considering ending it, frankly:  why go through with infidelity if I'm not actually going to get anything out of it?).

Anyhow, so last night we're fooling around - this is after she's come back to bed (long story) wearing only her bra and sweatpants.  Things are getting hot, but we're still bascially keeping both sets of hands above each other's waists.

But I do manage to let my hand stray south, and it's pretty clear that she's into letting me get her off (this is a first, I don't have to add), and I'm finally thinking that I might be able to get to bed without blue balls.

However, I'm not assuming that we're going to have full-blown sex.  A little oral?  Perhaps.  Hands?  Certainly.  But I didn't bring any protection, and I haven't even discussed the prospect of unprotected sex with her.  Wouldn't consider it in any case.

So, I'm getting her off, and she moans/grunts that she wants her sweatpants off (so I can have easier access, I'm assuming).  But as I ease them down her hips, she somehow snaps out of it, and puts and end to the fun, all the while saying, "I can't believe we almost had sex!!!"

She repeats this a few times, and I'm more-than-a-little surprised.  I tried telling her that, "No, we didn't come anywhere near having sex," but she was rather incredulous about my attitude, still repeating this, and wondering why I'm not more shocked about "how close we came."

And that's what I'm putting out to you.  As far as I am concerned, we were many, many steps away from having sex.  From a basic "vanilla" standpoint, there'd been no mutual touching of nether-regions, no oral, no dry humping, no wet humping, etc.

So can any of you explain to me her point of view?  How do we make the leap from my fingering her to down-and-out fucking?

Thanks!

- Canis Major

what you were doing was probably "having sex", even if you were only at second base.  Between her outlook on sex and her outlook towards your professional relationship, you may have been dealing with someone who felt that any sexual contact was "having sex".  

I am confused, though.  You mention your "physical relationship" with her.  Have you had any more sexual contact than this, or is this the farthest you have gone?

RUN!!! DON"T WALK. This woman has mental problems. As one who has been married to a schizophrenic and a manic-depressive, I recognize the symptoms.

Come on. You're in D.C. and aren't familiar with this argument.  Do you recall Clinton, in the face of his semen on Monica's dress saying, "I did not have sex with that woman..Ms. Lewinsky?"

The argument that only intercourse is "sex" is, in my view, misleading and potentially dangerous.  I understand, for example, that teenagers (and pre-teens) engage in oral and anal sex and claim that they've never "had sex."  

So did you and your friend "have sex?"  Well, who cares what you call it?  It was what it was.  

Perhaps in her view saying that she wanted her sweats off was the same as giving you the green light. As in "once I'm naked I know he's gonna fuck me." So it might feel to her like she almost had sex since for a moment she was willing. I think there's a deeper issue and it may be that this whole scenario needs to be played out more. She kept bringing it up right?  Well she needs to resolve this. Perhaps you're going to consummate this more fully and her expectation will be that you are going to make a stronger committment.  She's trying to develop a conversation here I think and she wants it to have some resolution - either we're going to start having uncovered sex or sex in general (you never elaborated on the physical nature of your relationship) and we'll have a deeper committment or you're going to get the hell out.  But by not coming out and really asking what she wanted to ask she's apprehensive as to your answer or afraid of her own feelings about all this.  Afterall if she's just the "affair chick" then she doesn't feel that special in your life and she's struggling with her desire to just let loose and be one of those care free girls or hold you to a higher standard.  

Could be totally wrong but with the limited info we got it seems plausible.

Tell Lina Blair you've got to go. Been there done that, run forest, run.

...sweatpants on a woman was the international symbol for "doesn't want sex in any way, shape, or form". Frankly I'm surprised you got as far as you did.

This guy is in bed with an otherwise attractive (if nutso) gal and is not getting/giving anything?  They are both nuts, IMHO!  My advice to you, CM, DO HER, take your chances on the Fatal Attraction thing, and then head for the nearest shrink.  LOL  MA

On the surface, she seems quite confused as to exactly what she wants. I think she opening all the doors and waiting for you to make a move in regard to starting a relationship that is not simply based on sex. She's teasing you with what you can expect if you say and do the right things that make her feel special in your life. This start and stop is for teens but mature adults. Being married, I don't think you need the game playing. In short, you're looking for sex but she is looking for a lot more. If she gives "it" up now, she can't expect anything more from you.

Intimacy for women involves emotion, much more than men.
You bone this Betty, you escalate things dramatically, especially given her reluctance to move forward.

Getting into her panties is the easy part, getting out of this clean is not. And trust me, all flings end.

Stay focused on the hobby.

Get rid of her.. shes a wack job

I think she wants you to fall in love with her.  

I'd consider this a sign of a messy ending if you don't have the same intentions.

I agree with what has been said here, and I will add that, (and im NOT talking ETHICS here) having sex with a provider is one thing, this is another. Call it womens intuition, but I feel that if you sleep with this one, your wife WILL find out, in one way or another. Most likely from the "affair chick" herself. She has no professional creed to prevent it.

From her point of view you did nearly have sex.  In her mind, allowing you to prod where you did must be a significant step, and could have led to greater intimacy.  What she said and did - part and parcel of the blowing hot and cold - represents her dilemma in allowing you to take the relationship to another level - and to her having sex will represent a higher level, both physically and emotionally.  

Of course, it's difficult to know precisely what is going on in her head.  We don't know her as you do.  But look at it from the information you've provided.  She knows that you're married and she doesn't want to be the "affair chick".  Well, the implications of that are obvious.  If you take it further, do you think she's miraculously going to change her mind?  Also, if she's a professional colleague - by that you presumably mean that you're co-workers or in relatively close professional contact - what's going to happen when it all goes wrong, as inevitably it must?  The alternative to it not imploding, of course, is that you two live happily ever after.  This is setting it out in simplistic terms, but which course is going to be the more likely outcome, do you think?

~A~

And this will only get worse.  

/Zin

Ditch the bitch, she's clearly trouble.

Ditch the bitch, she's clearly trouble.

Essentially, I have quite a different take on the sitch you're in. Firstly, I feel as though you're most-likely a couple decades south of the ol man here...Listen up!  You didn't say what she looks like compared to your other 1/2.
Don't "dump" the broad...the bad press you're likely to be subjected to in the aftermath may affect other relationships at work...(including much more important ones.)
Instead, take this approach...Make yourself "busy"...too busy for her.  Distance yourself from her at every chance you can.  I know, I know, sometimes it's tough but you've gotta do this!
After a period of time, her incessant inquiries and things like letters, phone calls, emails will escalate into a fever pitch (on her end).  You have to play it COOL all the while...give her the "we're getting too close..." approach if you have to.  
Remain aloof and intellectual and most of all CALM in your responses to her queries...
Now, depending on where you REALLY want to go with this...you're next action is most important!  If you wanna bang her once in a while and don't want anything beyond that...Try this, the next time she literally begs you to "meet" her...Get her alone (playing it COOL and aloof).  Chances are, it'll be running down her legs by then...play it for all it's worth...and then BANG her friggen ears off!  Treat her like a slut!
If you don't want to go anywhere with this, find yourself  neutral ground to explain to her "we're getting too close..." and after awhile she'll back off...almost painlessly.
My best advise is...unless she makes the ol lady look like a poodle (and her Mom's a hotty too with the last name Kennedy or Hilton) get rid of her...they'll be plenty more

Sorry - I didn't mean to be vague.

This was definitely uncharted territory, ie, the furthest we had "gone".

But thanks for your thoughts - it's pretty much what I was asking about:  do some people consider that "having sex", and why?

- Canis Major

I'm not going to go so far as to say that she's "borderline", but there have been a couple of "red flags".  Given those, and the fact that, as I said, what's the point in such a relationship if the physical contact is limited (heck, if I want to be rebuffed for sex, I can do that in the comfort of my own bed!), I am strongly considering putting the kibosh on this.

Thanks!

- Canis Major

Well, see that was always one of those things that I actually agreed with Clinton on, and I wasn't a fan of his (or his presidency).  That's not to say that I don't see oral, anal, or even "making out" with another woman as being "unfaithful" - there's no doubt in my mind about that (nor was there any doubt in my mind during the Clinton-era of the inappropriateness of his relationship with Lewinsky).

But sure:  I'm one of those people who agrees with you that it's probably silly that someone who's only had anal sex claims that he/she is still a virgin (I dated a girl whose previous boyfriend had held that belief - I can't imagine any woman putting up with buttfucking-only for two years!).

However, even if my friend is one of those people, I still think were were quite a bit off from even oral sex, let alone anal!

Thanks, though, for your comments.  They are certainly helpful.

- Canis Major

Now _THAT_ is one of the most enlightened responses I've read.  _VERY_ insightful, and tremendously helpful.

What you're saying is that the sweatpants on/off debate became a physical proxy for the interior monlogue that has been going on in her mind, and that the statement, "I can't believe..." was another manifestation thereof.

You hit the nail on the head:  she wants so be close, wants the physical relationship, but understands that there is a certain finality to it.  She knows that I'm not going to leave my wife, doesn't want to be hurt, and therefore wants to limit the physical contact (despite wanting that physical contact).

Sorry about the limited info.  To elaborate, we ran into each other on election night, went back to her place early in the morning to watch the returns (yes, tremendously geeky, but this is DC, after all, that we're talking about), and wound up kissing on her couch.  Since then, we've gotten together a handful of times, never going much past kissing, some furtive groping, and the occasional bearing of her breasts (this all sounds very highschool-ish, I know).

What makes your assessment so worthwhile is that I have seen this back-and-forth in her mind manifest itself.  We had an extensive conversation two days after the election in which she made it clear that she didn't want to be "the other woman", and then asked for a "real kiss" as we departed company that afternoon.  We've had a couple of other "mixed signal" situations since.  All told, we've "hooked up" (using the defintion I've laid out:  DFK, groping, feeling her up) four or five times.

Thanks.  Seriously.

- Canis Major

Short, sweet, and right on point.

Much thanks.

- Canis Major

"She has no professional creed to prevent it."

And I'm starting to realize that she might not have much of an "appropriateness" filter, and possibly a big mouth.

I think you are right on, as well as with the others, who have said "run, do not walk" away.

Thanks.

- Canis Major

"This is setting it out in simplistic terms, but which course is going to be the more likely outcome, do you think?"

I think, in the end, that I did the right thing by posing my questions here.  So much reasoned and cogent analysis.

You are right, as others have been.  The chances are this will end awfully.  Better to draw a line here, and end it.

Thank you _VERY_ much.

- Canis Major

It sounds like you guys are torturing each other. Why are you doing that?

... she sees "sex" differently than you (most women do) and is conflicted about her feelings about you and what she should do about it.

As long as you stopped when she said stop, you did the right thing.  Don't worry about "dealing" with her concerns.  You have issues to work out about your relationship with your wife.  Dealing with that won't be easy.  

Good luck on dealing with your problems!

Harry

OK, so she most likely is looking for you to leave your wife for her.  You in no way have implied to us that you're leaning that way.  Assuming that you did leave her, why jump into the whack-job frying pan?

Run fast, run far, run safe...

a former Nun who is a closet lesbian with a secret sweat fetish.


and by no means a cure for blue balls.

Cheers!

I am confused, too.  Is there an affair or not?  When the guy talks about "hooking up," he's not talking about sex?

That sounds like what many civi guys I have turned down say about me.
OOps did i say that?
yep i guess i did

Cheers!