Please don't read this if you have no interest in it.

Been leading climbs for over 20 years now, and never lost a climber.  Lost a lot of climbing buddies, and have several buddies who also lead climbs who have lost climbers who they were leading, all because of bad judgement by the climb's leader (not bad luck!), which is almost always the root cause the the deaths of climbers.  Some thoughts on this 50th anniversary of the first ascent of Everest:

I've met and talked with "Sir Ed" (as we call Sir Edmund Hillary), and you won't meet a more unassuming guy.  Very cool that it was him and Tenzing Norgay instead of Charles Evans and Tom Bourdillon who got the summit in '53.  Evans was the rich guy British "gentleman climber" while Hillary was the lowly beekeeper from the "wilds" of New Zealand, and Tenzing was of course a Sherpa, the unsung people who are denied the credit due them even now, mostly because of flat-out racism.  The leader Sir John Hunt (another rich guy) tried to orchestrate things so that Evans and Bourdillon would get the summit, but they were too intimidated by the short rock wall just below the summit (now called the Hillary Step) to give it a try, so the next team in line (Hillary and Tenzing) had to get their shot, and pulled it off.  

The book "Into Thin Air" is bullshit.  John Krakauer sold out his fellow climbers to get a fat payday.  He was a freelancer who probably never more than $60K in a good year, and got over $1 million for this book.  How did he sell out climbers?  By pandering to the general public's image of climbers as wild-eyed risk-takers who like to "dice with death" and who die because of bad luck.  The truth is that climbers almost always die because of bad judgement.  The margin for error is low, but good judgement on the leader's part can and will keep the climbers on his team safe.  The key is to earn their trust first, because sometimes you need for them to do something which is counter-intuitive in order for them to stay safe, and they have to trust you completely before they will do that.  You don't get their trust by being a "climbing jock" (which I'm really not), but by being the kind of person you are.  Anyhow, Krakauer knew better, but he also knew what would sell. Every single person who died on Everest in '96 did not follow the "turnaround time" rule, the most basic rule in climbing, and every single person who lived did follow it.  A few people who didn't follow it were lucky enough to live anyway.  Krakauer talks a lot about unpredictably bad weather coming in, but that's more bullshit.  The leaders Rob Hall and Scott Fisher both knew that storm was coming,  but they got cocky and let their assistant leaders ignore the turnaround time rule.  You've got to respect the mountain.

OK, I've probably bored you enough.  Climbing is my passion, and I get carried away sometimes.

Try climbing! It's a path to deep self-knowledge, which I think is the goal of life.

could get carry away by the scores of accolade thrown their way.

Absolutely true.  In '96, Scott Fisher said he had "the big E wired", and bragged that he could get any client to the top.

Clients were allowed to go who were unqualified.  One of Fisher's clients, Tim Madsen, hadn't been above 14,000 feet!

Rob Hall had been to the top four times with clients, and also underestimated what the mountain could throw at him.  

You've got to respect the mountain.

jackvance, you already know I share your enthusiam for this area.  I also share you view of how the Sherpas are viewed.  Having spent time trekking up and down mountains in Nepal I have many vivid memories of tiny, wiry Nepali men running up past me carrying loads so heavy I couldn't even think of lifting them - much less of bounding up a mountain with them on my back!

They are astounding - with a new Everest ascent record just having been set yet getting so little publicity the lack of acknowledgement of the Sherpas remains.

I'm sure you'll find this interesting:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2937734.stm

Keep climbing safe honey! x

As difficult as Everest is to climb, I've heard that K2 is far worse....Does K2 require alot of technical ability or are the weather condtions just too treacherous?

Climbing is too extreme for me, I don't have the nerve for it.....Hiking on Mauna Loa and Mauna Kea will be adventurous enough for me.....

Lakba Gelu Sherpa's new speed record is astounding.  He averaged 1000 ft per hour for eleven hours, going from base camp at 18,000 to the summit at 29,000.  

The man who has climbed Everest the most times (thirteen) is also a Sherpa.

They are the unsung heros.  And the unvarnished truth is that they do a lot more than just amazing load carrying.  When the head Sherpa expresses an opinion about the weather, every Westerner present listens intently.  They also have a good sense of the general logistics of a climb.

With a body like yours, you'd make an awesome rock climber.  The next step is to take it outdoors - let's climb in Yosemite some time you're out to California again.

The National Park Service asked me last summer to give talks at Yosemite about climbing El Capitan (big rock wall I climbed there). 1200 people attended the four talks/slide shows.  The theme of my talks was that "adventures are for everyone".

I believe in having adventures in life.  The idea is to move outside your comfort zone and explore territory that is new and uncharted for you personally.  But an adventure doesn't have to be a climbing adventure, or an outdoor adventure, or even a physical adventure.  It can be an adventure of the mind or spirit.  

Climbing is also a path to deep self-knowledge, the type that few people get.  Most people go through life as mysteries to themselves.  My friend Stacy Allison (first US woman to climb Everest, and also a survivor of an abusive marriage) said it well:  "What I like about climbing is that there are no facades in the mountains.  In the mountains, you come face to face with yourself".  In my experience leading men and woman on climbs for 20 years, I have seen many people daunted by the prospect of "peeling off the layers" and looking deep inside themselves to see what is there.  But very often they have liked what they saw, and that has been a very good thing for them.  Helping them gain this self-knowledge is why I lead climbs.

Have adventures!

-- Modified on 5/28/2003 9:53:27 PM

I've always given Tenzing an equal amount of credit for the initial ascent. Those two were (and still are) among those I admire most for summiting Everest in 53. Accomplishing the feat myself has always been a lifetime goal but life has taken me on another path equally as challenging. I'm content to live the adventure vicariously through others. Thanks for the reminder of the anniversary. I had forgotten it even though a close friend of of one of my siblings is on the mountain as I write.


-- Modified on 5/29/2003 6:42:35 AM

more technical than Everest, requiring more fixed rope, and just plain relentlessly steep.  It also has narrower windows of good weather, usually no more than 3-4 days at a time.  Retreat can also be problematic.

One of my climbing leader friends lost a climber on K2 - fell off the Bottleneck.  The tough thing about losing a climber, of course, is that you need to have a face-to-face with the climber's family.  They want to know the physical details of how it happpened so they can picture it in their minds - it helps them come to closure.  I've never had to do one of these, because I've never lost a climber.  Not planning to start now.

I can only imagine what it must feel like to climb such a mountain.  I feel like I'm climbing peas compared to you and would be happy if I just get to do Denali sometime in my life.  Not sure about Everest, although I'm sure sometime in my lifetime I will find my way into the region
I'm more of a backpacker, but I think in some sense it is along the same wavelength in self exploration  (some close call stories that were scary at the time, but now looked back with wisdom and humor)
I read a book a few years back by the son of Tenzing Norgay (Jamliing or something like it?)  but I don't remember the actual title...definately a more humble story~

Nadine

Jamling's book was "Touching My Father's Soul: A Sherpa's Journey to the Top of Everest".  His father Tenzing also wrote a very good autobiography, called "Tiger of the Snows".

I met Jamling last year at a climber get-together.  I liked him.  He is devoutly religious, and sees Chomolungma (the Sherpa name for Everest) not as something to be "conquered", but as something to be approached with reverence and respect.
I agree with his viewpoint about mountains.

You can see him in the IMAX movie "Everest", which I highly recommend.  Much of the IMAX movie is about the 1996 disaster which was described in John Krakauer's book "Into Thin Air".  I also know Ed Viestiers, the climbing leader in the IMAX expedition.  It was Ed who told me at another climber get-together that Anatoli Boukreev, the Russian who Krakauer wrongly vilifies in his book, had just died climbing a sub-peak of Annapurna on Christmas day.  I like Ed a lot, and am jazzed that he will likely be the first American to climb all fourteen 8000 meter peaks, but in truth he was not the real leader of the IMAX expedition, as the movie makes it seem.  The real leader was another friend of mine, David Breashears, who I sync with very well in terms of our leadership style.  If you ever see the IMAX film, be sure to also see the video about the making of the film, which actually is a more accurate depiction about the roles of the climbers.

David told me that he had been accused by some nonclimbers of using Aracelli Segarra (the very attractive Catalonian woman who is one of the climbers) "like a playboy bunny", and that that charge was total bullshit.  She earned her way onto the expedition by making a strong attempt on Everest by a harder route on the north side, which is when he met her.  Another friend of mine confirmed to to me that she was a solid climber when he was on the same expedition as her a few years ago making an unsuccessful attempt on K2 - although he did mention that she was a little intense at times.  Sadly, that same friend died on Makalu late last year.  He was a good guy.

Your backpacking is very much in the same vein as climbing.  It's all about self-exploration, as you say.  See my thoughts above about "Adventures are for everyone".  There are all kinds of adventures, all good for gaining self-knowledge.

Good luck with all of your future adventures.

hey JackVance did you know that there is a book relating Anatoly Boukreev side of the story? It was written after his death by one of his friends. I can't remember the name but I've got it somewhere. I'm just asking that after reading your post on Krakaeur'book and his treatment of Boukreev.

As far as I'm concerned I've always been awed by climbing - I'm severely afraid of heights - and have read many books on climbing. The big like K2, many in the Alps, Annapurna, and of course Everest. I can understand your passion.

good climbing and if you need this book title I can find it for you.

M.

"The Climb", and I recommend it highly to anyone who has read the bilge in "Into Thin Air" that Krakauer wrote about Boukreev.

Krakauer knew he needed a "bad guy" to make his book even more sellable to the non-climbing public, so he chose the Russian Boukreev, one of Scott Fisher's assistant guides, who spoke very limited English and would not be able to defend himself.

Krakauer faults Boukreev for not using oxygen, as most Everest climbers do above 25,000 feet (some clients start on the O's even lower), but Boukreev made it plain all along that he wanted the challenge of doing Everest without oxygen.  Krakauer's complaint is that because Boukreev didn't use oxygen, he wasn't able to take care of the clients properly.  If that was true, why was it Boukreev who went out of Camp 4 on the South Col not once but twice to rescue clients and save their lives by bringing them back to the camp?  All of this while Krakauer cowered in his own tent, supposedly shattered by his discovery of the tracks of one of his friends leading off the edge of the self where C4 is located (this turned out to be untrue, and Krakauer had to apologogize to the guy's family for giving false information about where and how he died).

We in the American Alpine Club made our final comment about Krakauer's mistreatment of Boukreev by awarding Boukreev our highest award for heroism for his actions in Everest '96.

The first time I went rock climbing, on a 200 foot high route called "Breakneck", I was scared shitless.  I had nightmares that night about falling to my death on the climb.  The next day I went back and did it again.

It's not about being "fearless", like those ridiculous bumper stickers that say "No Fear".  Fear is a natural and normal reaction to being in danger.  What it's about is not letting yourself give in to fear, whether while climbing or while doing anything in life which makes you fearful.  

Climbing is largely also about trust.  You have to trust your belayer to catch you if you fall.  If you are on an expedition, you have to trust your leader to make the right decisions.  Being someone who dozens of men and women have voluntarily chosen to trust with their lives has been one of the weightiest but also most rewarding experiences of my life.

Anyhow, try climbing, and don't think that you can't do it because you are afraid of heights.  We all started that way.  You'll fall a few times, and see that the rope/anchor/belayer system actually works, and then you'll feel a lot safer, and will begin to push your limits.

I didn't realize there were climbing enthusiasts on this board.  Here is a poem written almost 20 years ago by a former climber (medical doctor)  appropriate to this occasion.  Hope you all enjoy:

        "The Risk Taker"

Meet the risk taker.
You can see him on a rocky face
In motion, juggling now his three-point stance
He next secures a piton in its place
What insanity provokes this chance?
He would be the first to say
That others like him also play
On steep and high
And though at times he might be scared
He knows the risk - he is prepared
To make his try.
Those who climb must also know
It's not when hills are high, but low
That most will die.
If you ask, he'll tell you what they seek.
The thrill is in the climb and not the peak.

Watch the risk taker
He now makes his way on ice and snow.
He seeks the hidden Bergshrund with great care.
His climbing is most difficult and slow
A cornice wave from windward side - beware!
To challenge nature with his skill
To conquer with his strength and will
To know defeat
He battles rugged peaks and skies
His weapons - hands and feet and eyes
Now tired and weak
His final effort ends his climb
He struggles to the top to find
A foggy peak
Ask him if he's sad, and he'll retort
His pleasure's in the passage, not the port.

Learn from the risk taker
He disciplines his body for the climb
He disciplines his mind for all his fears
Preparation for his risk takes time
To move with rhythm takes him many years
He never climbs beyond his skill
He shares his work - enjoys his thrill
He seldom frets
He rarely climbs without a rope
Relying on his tools - not hope
And careful steps
Try to learn his how and why
The how you live, not why you die
With few regrets
His peak holds no salvation for the soul
His freedom is the process not the goal.

January 1985

W. Dinsmore, MD: "Hear Me, White Man!", Vantage Press, 1985

What I really want to know is has anyone ever fucked on top of Everest? Talk about the mile high club?  I wonder what an orgasm would feel like up at those heights with your brain being starved of oxygen?

Now there is an achievement just begging to be documented!!!!!

Hasn't happened yet, and believe me, I'd know about it - the climbing community is tight.  

The Sherpas get very upset about fucking on the mountain - they think it is disrespectful.  But only on the upper mountain, above the Khumbu Icefall.  Below this, they just laugh to each other about the Westerners "making sauce", as they call it, in their tents.

I could tell you about some sexual soap operas on climbs that you wouldn't believe.  It's all pretty intense up there, and it affects everything.  Just one more thing for the leader to manage.

-- Modified on 5/29/2003 11:18:22 PM

I realize that the book might have been sensationalized a little, and everyone wants to point fingers, But I thought that point was made rather strongly.

I am a skier, not a climber, but even I know how the weather changes as the sun starts setting.  Those climbers were either rank amateurs or had their thinking mudddled to not turn around at the deadline.

IMHO

I agree that Krakauer did make the point, but you'd be amazed at how many nonclimbers who I've talked to about the book came away from his book with some serious misconceptions about what climbing is all about in terms of whether it is bad judgement or bad luck that kills climbers.

Your experience as a skier may have enabled you to have a better understanding.  

The reason the climbers died is that their climbing leaders didn't turn them around.  I've had to turn around plenty of climbers, and there's a right way to do it and a wrong way.  The best way to is talk with them about how they're doing, and have it be their idea to turn around.  But if they want to continue and I don't think they can safely, I lay down the law.
Sometimes I do the opposite - they want to turn around and I encourage them to suck it up and continue.  But in both cases, it's based on my appraisal of how they are doing, not just physically but mentally and more importantly emotionally, and whether I think they can continue safely.

In the end, the leader is responsible for the lives of his climbers.  I accept that and know that if one of my climbers dies, it is my fault.  One of the reasons I "hobby" is the opportunity it gives me to "get away from it all" for a little while and just enjoy the physicality of good sex.




-- Modified on 5/30/2003 6:33:28 AM

What about K2?

thanks for your advice. But for me it goes beyond that. Even in a cablecar or in those glass elevators they sometimes have in hotels I start to sweat and shake, and yet I "trust" the elevator or cablecar not to fall down. I feel so uncomfortable that I'm better off not climbing, I would endanger or bother other people around me, and that's not a very comforatble thought.

What is it like in the "death zone" above 26,000 ft?....I had heard that putting one foot in front of the other practically puts you out of breath & your backpack feels like your carrying an elephant...Can you share what that's like that high up....

-- Modified on 5/30/2003 7:38:31 AM

In that case, have other kinds of adventures!  Climbing is just one type of adventure.  Any adventure of the mind or spirit can
bring great rewards, as long as you are willing to move outside your comfort zone.

It's all in Rick Ridgeway's book "The Last Step: The Ammerican Ascent of K2".  Cherie Bech started an affair with Chris Chandler during the frickin' climb! With her husband Terry Bech right there!  When John Roskelley said it was causing tension on the climb and could cost the team the summit, Terry told him to mind his own damn business, and Cheri and Chris denied it (they got married shortly after the climb, after Cheri and Terry divorced.  Chris later died in Cheri's arms, of pulmonary edema, on Kanchenjunga).  

I had dinner with Rick a few years ago, and he said he asked John if he would mind if Rick tried to sell a screenply based on the climb, and portraying John as a hard ass (which John definitely is - you should hear him talk about politics - he's a county commisioner in Washington state, and a super hard ass about protecting the environment), and John said "No problem, buddy, go for it".  But if they did make it into a movie, no one would believe it.

The strangest single thing for me about being at extreme altitude is that although your thinking process is sluggish, there is still a voice in the back of your mind that reminds you to do the things you need to do to stay safe. Almost like a voice that is outside of yourself and speaking to you.

Sounds kind of nuts to me when I describe it.   Hard to really convey what it is like.

so that other gym climbers who have begun to take it outside can read it:

Every year we in the American Alpine Club publish "Accidents in North American Mountaineering", and we have seen a big jump in accidents caused by people not placing pro properly - a lot of poorly placed belay anchors especially.  We think it's because people are learning to climb fairly hard stuff in the indoor gyms, and then taking it outdoors and climbing that same hard stuff without knowing how to place pro correctly.  The point is, be sure you balance your growing skills at technique in the gym with growing skills at placing pro and belaying with a tube (I recommend the ATC  - Air Traffic Controller) instead of the Gri-Gri's that the gyms usually have.

Good climbing!

-- Modified on 5/31/2003 9:21:14 AM

-- Modified on 5/31/2003 9:22:49 AM

for example: I have an extremely hard time going up a ladder to the second story roof of my parents house.

On the other hand, a buddy of mine is a pilot. One day we split the cost of a Cessna 172. We decided to take arial photographs of our respective homes. I was leaning out of an open door, buckled in of course, but leaning out of an open door taking pictures. I don't know how high we we but it didn't bother me.

Go figure.

Are You kidding? You'd freeze your Dick off!

When you climb, you have to have confidence in your partner.  Trust is very important.