I read the post below about the guy who turned thirty, lives at home, and pays a stripper 1K a week to...we still don't know exactly.

And I can relate to this. I can relate to the ego stroke, the sure-thing sex, the "belonging" somewhere in the flesh business.

My experience was with a PS named Nadia Moore about 10 years ago. When we began dating, she went to doing lesser-paying girl-girl movies and clubs to make up the income. I had no financial arrangements with her, but ended up paying a few grand over six months for various things.

My point is that it was a brutal relationship and ended badly when I was around 40. I then realized the reason to hobby.

When I was 20 or thirty, I had the energy to be chasing young women, and tolerating everything that went along with dating them: The lack of career direction and their tendency to bring little else to a relationship beyond a hot body. The all-about-me stuff.  I even had the energy to keep a rotating stable of 4 or 5 of them going with "don't ask" policies across the board. This went on for years. Every few weeks one would drop off, another would get added.

Those days are well over. At 50, there is no way in hell I want to be dating a 20-year-old. My co-workers have seen me at it for decades. And the last few years, I don't want to give them the satisfaction. Plus it got so old. And I decided I want more than a girl in her 20s can bring to the table in a dating situation.

Thus hobbying as I near 50.

But what I'm concerned about is that men half my age are hobbying. I just don't get why. Dating is not that expensive. And I don't know what your time's worth, but if you can't spend a few hours chatting a girl up to get her to sleep with you, you're missing the point of being 30! You are supposed to be honing your seduction skills, not PAYING to avoid them!

I guess if you're that young and married and bored, OK. But it begs the question of why you got married at all.

If you say you're paying them to leave? Guys, it is just not that hard to get a girl to go home for the night. It's not that hard to tell a girl what you want in general.

Variety? Use the rotating stable.

The best reason I can see to pay at 30 is if you are fat or ugly AND have no sense of humour. There are thousands of hideous men who overcome their appearance with personality. Most women will tell you it's a major turn-on.

So, to you youngsters who are paying for strippers, or "providers" on a regular basis:

What are you thinking?

40-Watt, I understand your bewilderment but please don't give those youngsters any ideas!  I hooked up with a super fit, 28-year-old client recently and it was really quite lovely.  *sigh*

So for my client, I'd venture to guess that it is a combination of motivations that keeps him coming back... he's shy, for one--so hobbying cuts through all the possible rejection crap, and he doesn't do it a lot, so maybe he just likes the occasional thrill.

And.. perhaps many guys aren't as proficient as you were at 30, in which they know they can go into a bar, chat a woman up for a few hours, and that would guarantee them sex.

Last thought... Life is much faster these days... who has time to spend fishing for something you know you can get with a phone call?

The Problem 40-Watt is that most of your adult life, the decision about who you were "doing" was always made by you, and not by someone else.  You are approaching your argument like a millionaire saying something like "How can anybody possible be hungry with all these four star restaurants around"  There are simply those of us who are poor in the women seducing department.  How many of us "average guys" have ever even met a porn star, much less dated one for any significant period of time???

There are those of us who while not hideous looking, and who do have a sense of humor, just have never been able to "connect" with women on a sexual level like you have.  Besides the hobby, I have never had sex with any woman except for my wife.  This is certainly not for lack of trying, just that I have never been successful.  Now the women I see professionally all like me, like my personality, etc.  In fact one of my regulars like to see me because she says I make the rest of her day better.

In college, I was the dreaded "friend".  None of the women in college ever thought of me as a sexual partner, but instead as just "one of us".  Even with a myriad of hints dropped, nothing happened.  Perhaps it is the fact that I am much too friendly with the women I meet.  I become their good friend instead of being thought of as a sexual being.

But alas, now that I am in my mid 40's, been married for many years, I have resigned myself to the fact that I am never going to have that thrill of the "one night stand" except when I pony up the money and pay for it....

So bottom line, while you certainly have been successful in your civie sexual exploits, there are millions of guys like me..

"...but if you can't spend a few hours chatting a girl up to get her to sleep with you, you're missing the point of being 30! You are supposed to be honing your seduction skills, not PAYING to avoid them! "

At any age, that's called a "waste of time".

Whether you're 30 or 50, you'll never get those hours back.

I don't pursue women for the thrill of the chase; I am in for the sex. Why go through all the trouble of trying to attract a woman, then seduce her, then having to deal with the emotional fallout (there ALWAYS is with civies), when you can simply pick up the phone and order an hour or five of steamy sex?

It's a no-brainer.

If I could turn back the clock, I would have started hobbying at 18.

I guess I think getting to know how women work is a wonderful life skill. If I just want the easiest solution to everything, that I would be missing something.  

It sounds like you have a low opinion not just of civvie sex, but of women in general. It hasn't been all about rotating shallow relationships for me. I have had deep stuff going, but usually not for more than a year-and-a-half at a time. And monogamy as well.

I know the hours of chatting are gone, but so are the dollars. Part of my rationale comes from the assumtion that one has more disposable income after 40 than before 30.

That there is always emotional fallout from civvie sex is simply not true. There are many women who really want the same thing we do. And if they lie, and say that but don't mean it, then guess whose fault that is.

...to be almost 50, and meet 20-something year-olds who would rather meet me than men their own age!

I never  thought  of  being a  provider till  my  very  late  20's.

I was too  busy trying to save  the  world, of  course  I  played  it  too.

If  I  only  knew  that all  then  men  that  pawned  after  me  when I was  20  I  could  have  gotten  them to  pay  for  it,  Damm, I'd have  my SL 55 amg  by  now. That house on the  beach.

In my early 20's all I  wanted  was to  be  apart  of  something  important, and I was.

Now at 30 starting to  think  "what  am I doing," trying to launch a career, where I  am competing  with spoiled  rich kids while I  stuggle  to  just get  by.

I finally realize. Hey I am a really good  fuck. I  now know  men will  pay  for  it,, DAMMMMMM. I  am  having way too  much  fun as a provider. I am discovering in fact I  have  more  fun  and  better  sex  with  clients  then I  have (and ever had)  in  the  civi sector.

At 25 or 30 or 35, it was about convenience and adventure.  
I've always found the tension inherent in being intimate with a complete stranger to be a big adventure, a rush, a high.  If I could afford it -- and I could -- I did it.  Some people gamble for entertainment and a big rush; personally, I find the tables a thumping bore.  But finding what's behind the kiss of a beautiful stranger?  Geez ---.

The other dimension is convenience.  At those earlier ages, I was working from 7:30 or 8 in the morning to 9 or 10 at night, sometimes later, building a career.  What a wonderful relief, and treat, to see the end of the day coming, to place the phone call, and to be in someone's arms -- naked -- moments later.

And no, I don't have, didn't have, any trouble connecting with civilian women.  

But at 50 plus, it's now completely different.  

-- Modified on 3/26/2005 11:22:15 AM

Yeah, that must be it, Dr. Freud. I'm famous for my low opinion of women.

FYI -- I wasn't asking what you were thinking, I was replying to the final sentence of your post (i.e., "What are you thinking?").

But if you were never any good with women at all then hobbying kind of eliminated that awkward step of trying to meet someone.

I'm 39 now but I didn't chase girls or anything like that when I was 21. I've always been very shy and lacked confidence. Being in the hobby I didn't need anything like that. I was able to satify my one need, sex. I've never been married or been in any kind of serious realationship for more than a few weeks.

When I was hobbying a lot from 1998-2002 I used to get the "I don't get many men your age" thing from the girls. Now that sex is no longer desirable to me, I find that I don't even need the companionship side of the hobby anymore.

So I guess the hobby fulfills different requirements for different people.

I can relate to everything 40W says--and yes there were times when I was in my 20s and 30s where, despite ridiculously low self-esteem, I could have up to three sexual partners rotating through my apartment in a given week.  But it was hard work and it got tiring.  

So what's the other hand part?  I just don't want to be that guy in the club.  You know who he is.  Grecian Formulaed, wearing more bling bling than a man his age ought to, and generally looking like an old fool still trying to score.  I realize part of 40W's point is that he won't go chasing around 20-somethings.  My concern is that the hobbying started to feel and look the same as the guy in the club--after each session with a provider I was finding myself looking in the mirror and finding that more and more I was looking like that guy.  Always chasing something that was always receding from my grasp.

I have a hard time empathizing with your post because my reason for hobbying is so different, at least I think it is.   I can't talk about the energy and fun of dating at a younger age because I was married right after my 21st birthday, and I have been married ever since.   I have never tried to pick up or date a young woman, and I can't imagine that any of the providers whose company I enjoy would be interested in an overweight 61 year old.   The hunt means nothing to me.   I enjoy the fantasy, and I am willing to pay for it.  I try to befriend the providers who, in my opinion, deserve befriending, and I have had a lot of luck at that.  But I have no illusions about myself and my "swordsmanship."

many thanks. I hear all sides of the reasoning for hobbying and I've seen many of them expressed here. Kudos to all of you for the articulate and thoughtful ways that you have expressed yourselves. I love having gents like you as MY friends. Whatever the reason YOU hobby.

Smiles and Kisses,
Anneke

-- Modified on 3/26/2005 4:10:42 PM

I can tell you why the men half your age hobby as well..

The games! The games that these girls play are insane..And yes. Women too. That will be the first thing any man will more than likely tell you

As said, It is much easier to pick up the phone and order an hour or three.. then to sustain the head games.

I've been told, It's easier for some men to pick up a phone and hear " Sure I'll see you ", being that it is much better than hearing a girl giggling amongst her friends at a bar and saying " Uh, I don't think so asshole"

It is cheap for dating? I Beg to differ.It isn't cheaper to date at all. Eventually they want houses, children, cars. Or eventually they are jealous,insecure, ruthless. They will stop at no end to put your life in ruins.


Maybe 40 watt, it is the fact you've been out of the dating game for a while. A kind world it is not! I for one, feel much safer with strangers in escort land.

Apparently the men in a certain age group you speak of, feel the same way.

I love the enlightening moments on TER.. I'm with Anneke ! Great to see enlightening responses.

You had me in deep thought for awhile and I was going to write a truly reflective piece about my experience of why I started some 18 years ago when I just turned 18. …. But then I thought about it and honestly in my case really it boils to this and nothing more ……………… I just love women and I just love fucking them. It can be a one night stand, an escort or a date, it doesn’t matter. For me it is all the same. I just want to get laid. Period.  

One can make a case and say that this is the desire of most men, …..but let me tell you this is my life’s passion. Even on the dates I go out on I make it very clear that I expect some play that night. If she says no there is no going out. It may sound brutal, and my desire superficial, but that is quite simply the honest truth. I am not seeking relationships, I have been in them and I am not cut for it, because I know that in the end I will be bored and start cheating and that to me is unacceptable. But most of all I enjoy my solitude, which gives me the freedom of time to think of and do what I passionately love most .….. chase babes, whether paid or not.


-- Modified on 3/26/2005 6:14:03 PM

Mostly because in your replies to me, there have been hints of this question and my sense that you didn't approve.

My response simply comes down to what Ciara said - the games.  You apparently enjoyed those games when you were young - I most certainly do not.  I despise dishonesty and I cannot stand the god forsaken head games young women feel the compulsive need to put men through.  I find it unnecessary, unkind, dishonorable and a complete waste of my time.  I derive no joy and no excitement from what is commonly called "the chase."  If I express my interest in you and you're not straight with me, you're a waste of my time.  

It may sound ruthless, but it saves me alot of heartache - and at the same time it instantly increases the quality of the friendships I DO have.

I have stopped expecting to find women my age whom I consider even the least bit interesting.  Personally I find Ciara and Anneke to be very titillating and thought provoking - there are the rare few my age who are the exception, but I can count on one hand how frequently I find them.

This does, as you can imagine, lead to a somewhat sexless life, at least for the time being.  I'm patient enough to wait for the right person to come along who clicks with me just right.  Yet I'm young enough that sex is still something that drives me and is a significant part of my thoughts during the day; in short, it's still something I want a whole lot!  And I did well enough in school and was lucky enough to find myself gainfully employed earning significantly more than most young people my age do, so I figured.. it makes sense.

I suppose that's all I have to say about that.

Editing to add:
I am 23.

-- Modified on 3/26/2005 7:04:33 PM

A Different Viewpoint & Red Wings hit the nail on the head for me.  These are the two best statements as to why someone who is 30 would hobby:

"I've always been very shy and lacked confidence..."

"....just have never been able to "connect" with women on a sexual level like you have"

I'm still getting over the fact that you stated that you used to have a rotating stable of 4 or 5 women at a time.  From this and other posts from you, it's safe to assume that you're not dumb, but you've got to realize that your situation is the exception, not the norm.  And on top of that, you dated a porn star.  How much did that help in the confidence department ?

Here's what I'm trying to get at.....please understand that meeting and dating civilian women is, for some us, an extraordinally difficult and akward process.  It can be extremely tough when you're average looking, have little money, very shy, or all of the above.  What may seem like an effortltess thing for some to do can be a torturous thing for someone else who is not as skilled or lucky.  And there is a large part of society that is set out to make you feel like a feak because you participate in this hobby.  Trust me, this hobby makes me live out things in my life that, for many reasons, cannot be duplicated in my own civilian life.  It's easier, less nerve racking, and really helps me and many others "forget" our own insecurities, even if only temporary.

And about dating not being expensive, you should revise that statement to read "one date is not that expensive", and even this is debateable if you live in a big city. The 4 or 5 dates it take to get you where you want to really adds up, and even that is no guarentee.

In a nutshell, it's a lot more difficult for some of us. And by the way, I am 29 years old.

You said it a lot better than I did. It's like somebody else said in one of the posts. I was always the good friend but never thought of as being a possible sexual partner.

I am 56, and dated a lot in my early years AND had sex with a variety of civies.  Only just before I met my ex-wife (while in my 40's) did I hobby.  I even dated  a provider - (did not know that she was a provider until we took a ski trip together).  So my experience is, while not vast, considerable.  

Let me explain about my marriage to also help provide some perspective.  She is not too bad looking, younger than me (We met when I was in my 40's and she was in her 20's) We are both professionals...  but, she has earning potential approximately 3x mine.  AND, she is a compulsive spender.  We were married for 10 yr.

Now, we are divorced.... why because we had problems with my profession, her obsessions and our personalities that tended to clash.  

Why do I hobby.  I am attracted to young women... who would not exactly go for me because they are trying to build lives (I keep in shape and actually am in better shape that men 1/2 my age)....   My confession, In this hobby I met someone that I could fall for - she also has a civie professional career and hobbys to fill in legitimate financial needs, as we have talked of this and I do understand...)  She also has advanced degrees and at one point hinted that she would see me as a non-client friend... but what would that lead to?  Not a real realationship other than a friend...  Do I date civvies -  yes. but believe me when I say this.  the civies that I have met since (and to some extent before my marriage) are every bit as whacked out as my ex.  The most sane women I have met are providers.  Some I truly consider my friends.

NO games with providers and yes they are after money but they are honest about it unlike my ex who lied about her desire to spend more money than you can imagine.  The providers that I see are realistic about all these things and provide me with what I want in the relation with NO pretenses.  IF I see a provider who does not satisfy the need to connect personally with warmth, I do not see them a second time!  it is that simple.  These providers - for the most part - are scrupulously honest, concerned about my happiness (at least with their interaction with me) and as an added bonus, don't make me feel bad or guilty about anything.  Would I get married again? don't know, but I have to say, that hobbying kept my sanity when I first divorced - and gave me the confidence to go out on dates with civies again....

My concern, is the 30 yr old guy, who lives at home, takes NO responsiblity for his life and in general in other areas of his life demonstrates a sad existance...   so, I hobby - as a hobby, but in the process have met some great people...! who put a smile on my face.

 

I have been reading all of theses responses trying to get a sense of my own behavior regarding hoobying. I am a 56 year old widower of a little less than a year. i started to hobby a few months ago. I need to have sex and a little companionship in my life. I can see why younger or any man would hobby and it is for the same reasons a need for some no non sense sex and someone who is not going to try and run their lives. I personally just want to have some fun in my life without any commitment strings. I recently signed up for one of those dating services but have not been able to keep a date yet. I would like regular companionship but am afraid of someone wanting more. I have been lucky to have made a couple of beautiful providers friends and cherish our moments together sexual and not. The nice thing about them they do not expect anything more and respect me enough not to be wanting of extras like gifts etc. If I buy a gift and I do it is my idea not theirs. I have had my good ones and bad ones in the hobby so far but I have tried to be a careful chooser. Thank you to the honest providers out there may I be lucky enough to meet you all.

I'm thinking I'm 27yrs old (close to being 28) and I'm having a lot of fun meeting new women, talking with them then basically fulfilling my fantasies.

I'm thinking I have 2 ATF's now, one is a GFE and the other is a PSE and I'm thinking it doesn't get any better than that. I'm thinking I love it when I get together with them and we talk about everything. From real estate to reality shows, our conversation is unlimited. Their are no hassels, no arguements, no weirdness. I'm thinking I can be relaxed & comfortable when I'm with them, unlike when I'm in the club, its totally weird. Its like putting a puppy in the lion's den. Like so many others, I've always  been classified as the "friend" with women or even worse the "nice guy" ARGH! And as you know when the civvie woman calls you a "nice guy" then you might as well forget it.

I'm thinking I'm in this hobby because I want to fulfill my porno fantasies...I've always been a fan of porn so I think this stems from that. And so far I'm succeeding in doing just that. I don't think I'll be in this hobby forever but for now I'm enjoying it and loving it.

I began my hobbying well into middle age.  I'll declare to you, if I had done this earlier, it would have saved me a lot of grief, motivated me into a higher income bracket much earlier, would have "honed my seduction skills," and generally, would have put me ahead of where I am, and made me a better person toward women generally.  I won't give a one-size-fits-all advice, but I will say if a guy can hobby in his 20s without stealing or neglecting his kids, then he should do it.    

I agree with what A Different Viewpoint wrote and I'll elaborate.  You talk about dating a PS, about rotating your stable, about chatting a girl up for seduction, about it not being very hard to get a girl to go home when it's all done-- you're living in a different world, no-- an alternate universe from most guys.  I know of one guy posting here who *never* had a date well into his mid-30s, and only had one sexual experience with a woman.  It wasn't for lack of effort, either.  He made tremendous efforts.  I know of others whose sparse dating experiences were so bad that they felt lucky to get away alive.  For most of us, the civvy dating scene is brutal.  That is, when it's not a marriage that may be worse.  

About your claim that civvy dating is cheaper: does that count the risks?  Having the date later accuse you of rape?  Does that include the later results of defending the paternity suit?  Does that include the jealous boyfriend pointing his magnum at you?  Does that include the later (possible) costs of divorce/alimony/child support?  Does that include the challenge to your nerves and health from all the head games?  Everybody pays for sex, women included (though not always monetarily).

I'll add that us guys towards the bottom of the pecking order catch the pent up bitterness from your treatment of civvy women.  You're seductions, your "go home or else," your rotating stables and "don't ask" directives.  The things that you've written about doing are some of the reasons why the singles scene has turned brutal.  Women don't take it out on you or your socio-economic frat brothers; they'll turn it on the rest of us guys.  

For that I say: thanks for poisoning the well, brother, but don't wonder why all of us don't do it.  

Is that I've found that independent providers turn out to be some of the most interesting and good people!  There's just something about the profession.  Something I never expected getting into this.

If you are mistreated, you should take it up with the person who mistreated you.

At this point, it is your bitterness poisoning the well.

And if you were my brother you would have gotten a little more!

-- Modified on 3/27/2005 2:20:33 AM

Next time.  Choose one and make it good.

You're mind's racing a bit.  For a guy who makes high-handed, widespread suggestions to his entire gender on better handling sex and money, you need a thicker skin.

Now, I'll take the nozzle off my flame thrower, any further postings (or pm's) will not be answered.

Subject closed.



-- Modified on 3/27/2005 2:35:10 AM

-- Modified on 3/27/2005 2:37:59 AM

Well, I would have, but I've got nothing.

It's not just the games Ciara, I myself prefer honesty.

In dating world people lie constantly.  I have always hated the lying part of seduction.  Women are such wonderful creatures that I hate to outright lie to them just to get in their pants.

Now here is the interesting thing - Providers, although they are skilled actresses and provide a wonderful fantasy, are incredibly honest people.  After decades of dating civilians and Providers, I confess to a preference for Providers.  In two hours we will know more about each other on several levels than would ever be possible between civilians.

Providers are looking for an envelope containing an agreed donation for their time and service.
  Civvi woman are looking for your overall net worth and what "community property" will eventually award them.
  Although the argument can be made that men in their mid twenties to mid thirties should be honing their seduction skills the truth is the only seduction skill honestly favored by civvi women is a promise to their continued and future fiscal security. With a dauntingly mercenary agenda like this to consider it makes perfect sense for a young and possibly upwardly mobile man to adopt the hobby and its pragmatic as well as fiscally controllable aspects for his sexual and possible social needs.

  Cm.

-- Modified on 3/27/2005 9:20:51 AM

-- Modified on 3/27/2005 9:25:10 AM

Getting it for free is pretty easy. Any single guy who sees an escort is admitting that he simply can't get it for free.

Most married guys who see escorts don't have the time to seek it out, don't want to be seen picking up a woman, and want to make sure she leaves with no strings attached.

If providers are honest, they will tell you that their best looking clients, with the best personalities, and who are the best sexual partners, are almost always married. Most single men with these qualities wouldn't be paying for it.

This is one of the most thought provoking threads that I have read.
I am 42 and I hobby because the civie alternative is full of dangers, emotionally and financially. I am married and do not wish that part of my life disturbed by my need for variety and adventure when it comes to sex.
I agree that when I was single, I was outhere getting some. But it was not for free and it was not less costly it was just what I wanted to do at that point in my life. As for now, I am happy with some aspects of my home life and can manage to fulfill my other needs and wants with kind, beautiful professionals who will not complicate my existance nor my state of mind.
Great posts guys, this is why I enjoy this site so much.
Happy Easter.

Folks who insist on the last word should pick one that makes sense. You want to go out on "lame?"

I could not agree more.  With very few exceptions, after a 1 hour meet, I usually know much more about a provider and she about me than in ANY civvie relationship.  The honesty with the better providers is incredible.  Recently I went to ask someone out (a civvie) and you would think that I asked her to do any number of evil acts....  all because I asked, "hey how about taking in a movie...?"  and I get a diatribe !  Also, I've had civvies go out, say hey let's do it again (not my offer) and I call a couple of days later and they ask "who are you?"  

When I see a provider -there is no illusion, I am there for the sex and a fantasy - the fantasy is simply this - it is the end of a very pleasant date (dinner, clubbin, movie, theater, concert, sporting event, WHATEVER), we have known each other for some time and now, it is time to share an intimate moment!  Providers get it, and gals, I thank you. All of the providers that I have given a 8 or more to - they have provided the fantasy.... better than a date...  For the two that I have given a 10 to, my reason for the 10 is they provided a fantasy that was better than mine and for with I am grateful....

What a bunch of bull malarky.....   I am divorced and in my late 50's and can and date single women (civies) from their late 20's to 50's  ==== so there.  I just simply prefer the honesty and quite frankly "cut to the chase" by providers.

As has been stated previously, the internet has made the hobby a true hobby one in which the hobbiests and providers share their rich wealth of experience and the human lot.  Imagine these discussion in the days before the internet provide us with the anonymity necessary to have these discussions....  Wow, I am impressed with the insight that many in this hobby have (both hobbiests and providers alike).  pretty incredible discussions and group of people.

Thank you all.

You stated that you "cannot stand the god forsaken head games young women feel the compulsive need to put men through". A little jaded there, buddy? *lol*

Well now, let's not forget that the reverse is also true. Young men aren't exactly the most sincere and reliable folks to deal with either. As we all know, young guys are seeking sex with few strings attached. Young women are usually seeking something with more substance during that time in their lives (even if they are open on occasion to flings). Both sides are compelled to lie and play their hands to convince their partner that they are in fact what that person desires...only to reveal the truth as time goes on. The civvie young ladies (my age group) believe that if they spin a story about being out for fun and not wanting commitment, that you'll take the bait and affiliate with her long enough to give her time to "work" on you. The ultimate goal (for many) is obviously to have you grow smitten with her after a few encounters...possibly fall inlove thereafter.

There's nothing wrong with her pursuance of a relationship; it's perfectly natural for her to seek it out. Just as it is natural for a young man (yourself and others) to desire unattached sexual encounters. What games do you suppose young men play in their attempts to secure access to a sexually-willing young woman? Most young males lack the funds to pony up even a reasonable fraction of the value they place on the sexual experience (and hopefully, the willing partner). So, the girl obliges, the boy has his fun, and afterwards she is left feeling cheated and frustrated. He is out the door hoping that she doesn't cling. After a few more nights like that, it should become obvious why young ladies withold sex and turn to "game-playing". Why should she make it so easy for you to gain access to her without you providing something of value to her in return? It's a give and take, hon.

It's so much easier to opt out and come here where everything is much more cut-and-dried, straight up. Someone mentioned that the ladies in this industry tend to be much more honest and open, as are the men that see us. Well, of course! We just cut out 90% of the bullshit. *lol*  Those games aren't (or at least shouldn't be) applicable in this situation. I have to agree with the ladies that have posted on this thread. With the typical civvie aspects of dating removed, we're free to simply enjoy one another without the expectations (or at least the majority of them), deceit,and manipulation.

I'm so glad to be back where things make sense.

Abbey Marie
(Captain Obvious signs off...)

Quote: "Getting it for free is pretty easy. Any single guy who sees an escort is admitting that he simply can't get it for free."

The utter unabashed arrogance of this statement pretty clearly marks your opinion on the issue.

And from me, not the bottom of the pecking order

I'm going to ignore his posts now, as his IQ was so doused with adrenaline, his brain was more like 5 Watts.  As you know, (remembering you) things aren't bound to get more elevated once somebody is taking one random shot after another, four in one post.  Only place to go from there is name-calling, obscene name-calling, threats and terrorism.  That's a bit OT for the thread, wouldn't you say?  

Of course, you might just be a 40 Watt alias.  If so, I'm glad you regained your composure.  

So, what's the flaw that you see in what I wrote?

There's plenty on this board to keep a super-villian busy.  And usually I can't wait to see what you'll say next.

The important thing is to stop wasting time and raising blood pressure.

A good friend of mine in college had an amazing success rate--it seems every month he had a new hottie in his crib and he met them everywhere.  I however could't score quite so willingly.  So I started hobbying.  Clearly what many of the hobbyists here are saying is that they simply didn't have whatever that special thing is my friend had. Just like most of us can't drive a straight tee shot 250 yards, most of us can't hit 3 3-pointers in a row, and most of us couldn't ski down a double black diamond and live to tell about it.  So for all of us who can't get laid on a whim, the hobby was invented.  Yes, I admit it, I couldn't get it for free.  So what?

Quoting your post:

"there were times when I was in my 20s and 30s where, despite ridiculously low self-esteem, I could have up to three sexual partners rotating through my apartment in a given week.  But it was hard work and it got tiring."

How were you able to do that, given your self-professed low self-esteem?  Next to being "a nice guy", that is the biggest turnoff for women.  Being in that same boat as you (and suffering from both aforementioned "turnoffs"), I wasn't able (and still can't) get even one woman into bed in any week, much less rotating multiple women on a weekly basis.  I would really like to know what your secret was/is.

The comment about "us guys toward the bottom of the pecking order" came from your post, so obviously it was a self-characterization.  Furthermore, your comment about 40 Watt "poisoning the well" and then blaming him for all your problems with civvy women was a bit over the top, don't you think?  Whether or not you agree with what 40 Watt wrote is your perogative, but any problems or difficulties you have with women emanates from you, not him.  

-- Modified on 3/28/2005 5:32:14 AM

-- Modified on 3/28/2005 5:33:42 AM

I must admit that this topic has been handled in a very mature way by pretty much everybody.  I want to thank you for bringing up a topic that has made for some insightful discussion.

Anyways, We are all guilt of wondering why others cannot do as we do in their lives.  I happen to be very good at some technical things, and proudly consider myself a nerd.  Now I can fully understand why others cannot perform the "tricks" I can with technology, but I consider it to be the same idea as 40-watt's abilities with women.

I think it is because I am so logical, I cannot deal with "fuzzy" (no pun intended at all) issues when it comes to the "games" that are played in interpersonal relationships.  I can deal with people when I am dealing with logical issues (fixing their computers, etc.), but have troubles dealing with people in terms of other things.

To me the way I would love to be able to meet a woman and "connect" with her would be to approach her and tell her exactly that I would like to have sex with her.  It would be like the movie "Tootsie" Where Tootsie is told by the woman he wants that she would really like a man to basically walk up to her and say that he wants to have sex with her.  When he does this as a man, she slaps him.  That is the problem in my mind.  To me the logical thing is for the woman to respond in the positive..

Alas I guess I will never understand women...

Why would I apply it to anyone else?  He was the one who had blown a gasket, and who was taking random shots (in a PM too, I will add.)  I guess it's fair not let me off the hook. I wrote that post late at night, and should have said, "Exchange ended" which is what I usually say when only thing left to continuing are the escalating insults.

About my being at the bottom of the pecking order:  As the song says, "I've been so low."  Low as in starving at one point.  I've lived there before, but I'm no longer that low now.  And I'm still underperforming, something I will have to address if I continue with this lifestyle.  I do have friends who have been lowly themselves, or are still in that situation, (both sexually and socio-economically.)

It may surprise you to find that I agree with you that I am solely to blame for traumatic relationships.  If you know the well has been poisoned/polluted, and you can filter it or purify it, but you don't and you end up sick-- who's really responsible?  

Now why would I have done such a thing?  Different reasons for different times.  Each time a terrible miscalculation.  Perhaps at one time I thought my constitution could take it.  Just some stomach cramps, I thought.  Perhaps I deluded myself into believing I could do without water, and when I got too thirsty, with the purifier still unassembled, it was too late.  Perhaps I didn't quite trust the purifier and was too lazy.

So, I can't blame him for the fact that got sick, but I can  still blame the guy for having to use the fucking purifier in the first place.  A bit testy of me I know, but honest because that's how I feel, and if he can't see it or doesn't care about that gripe, or thinks my place is to be cheerful about it, then we're objective enemies anyway, with different interests and in competition.  And I'm no more wrong than he is as far as that goes.  

Comments?

I will be moving the next two days, and my computer won't be hooked up till at least Thursday.  I'll look for your reply, and if you, or anybody replies here, I'll try to start a new thread on it.
 

While I may be wrong, you seem a bit depressed and down in the dumps.  Don't be, because your intelligence and sensitivity will prove to be your greatest assets and lead to happiness in the longer run.  Different people react in different ways to similar social situations, and the fact that you and 40 Watt approach things differently has nothing to do with right or wrong, good or bad, better or worse, etc.  We've all hit brick walls in social situations as we grow and mature, and in those situations we cope as best we can and learn what does, and what doesn't, work for us as individuals.  What works for 40 Watt doesn't work for you, and vice-versa I'm sure.  Just as you feel that his methodology works against guys like you, perhaps he feels the same, but in reverse.  In any case, it boils down to "different strokes for different folks," because I really don't think 40 Watt meant any harm to anyone in his comments.  He's just different than you - not better, not worse.

In the meantime, good luck with your move.  I know how stressful that can be, and believe me, you'll feel a lot better about everything once that takes place.

I was paying more attention to the first half of the statement.

Ruthless Young Women?  Nah.

Jaded?  No, not really, although I battle that tendency every day.  Lately the "it's really not so painful as all of that" side of me has been winning out, which I like.  Makes for a much more positive view of the world, and I can be so very, very dark.

Bitter, though, yes, sometimes.  Not because of women, or dating, or relationships, or sex, or any of those things, but because of people in general.  I make no attempt to hide who I am and what I believe, because I just can't.  Trying to do so was destroying me, so I stopped.  Consequently, I am very much an open book, which often makes my life difficult since I wish so very much to find others of the same sort, and I rarely ever do.  So - bitter, sometimes.  Not jaded.

Believe me, I'm very much aware of the games men can play.  I'd even go so far as to say that when men decide to play games, they're usually worse than anything a woman can come up with.  I don't approve of any of that, either; I can't stand MEN who are that way, either.  Damn this honorable soul of mine.

As far as WHY young men and women act as they do.. I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the issue.  Which, as you might imagine, leaves me at something of a contradiction - if things are SUPPOSED to work that way (and I do believe they are), then why can't I accept it?  I don't know the answer to that question.  Maybe I'm just not cut out for what's considered 'normal.'  But then, I never have been.

At the end of the day I don't blame women for withholding sex, as you put it, waiting for something of value in return.  That of course doesn't make it any easier for me, when I'd just as soon be up front and honest.  

-- Modified on 3/28/2005 11:01:08 PM

...even if he is attractive and pleasant. For example, you grow up in a remote area, or a culture that is different than most of the people around you, or you have no older brothers or cousins to  show you the way; you don't get to participate in the activities that city young people take for granted; you haven't seen all the movies, you didn't learn all the dances, etc; and so you are somewhat socially inept or intimidated, at least in crowds and in unfamiliar situations.

Get one girl alone, yeah, you can converse. Sure at work you can get along great with everyone. But as has been pointed out so often already, being an all-around-nice-guy really gets no one anywhere. But how is one to behave to make some progress with a girl; what are the right moves, etc?  

Sure, I can understand why hobbying is attractive to younger guys, too. It's simple, direct and tons of fun! Just wish my budget was bigger!  Thanks to all the sweet and sexy ladies I've met for all the wonderful times we've enjoyed!

When I was in my teens and early 20s I dated a lot of girls, most of them a number of times.  My friends dated a lot of them, too.  We had a fun crowd actually. Anyway, I only got turned down for a date twice in all that time, so I know I was enjoyed. But, here's the sad point; my little man was staying nice and dry.  What used to eat me up was that some time later I would learn that some of my buddies had dated the same girls as me and gotten laid!  But I didn't. Not because I didn't want to. In those years I just wasn't sure how you got from holding and kissing a girl to the point of sex. And I was too young and dumb to ask my buddies.  Man young people can be dumb!

Like say, I really enjoy conversation, so I'm supposing that is part of why the girls always enjoyed their dates with me. But if they wanted more excitement, they got it elsewhere.  

Man, now I understand what it meant when I used to hear old guys say they wished they could be young again and know what they know now.  I'm not very old yet, but I'd sure love a rerun, too!

As far as now, having grown up somewhat sheltered, there are still things I'd like to learn. For example, I'd love to be able to dance and dance well. Who is going to teach me?

A long time ago, I returned home to my dad's house...  He said a gal had called and asked for me.... Anyway, it turned out to be my High School girlfriend who I had not seen in 10 years.  I had never gotten anywhere near sex with her in high school and she had been the best lookin gal in school....  

We met up over a vacation.  The sex was really good...  guess all that pent up passion was released...  

Later my dad asked, had I returned and was it fun....   he actually was a pretty cool dad!  yea, I told him of my exploits and his comment was, that he had regreted that he had not gone back and "revisited" high school daze....

When I was between marriages, I chose to get it for free. I had no trouble having sex almost as often as I wanted. Why should I pay for it when I didn't have to.

The posts below say that I am arrogant and ignorant. I am simply telling the truth, and it is all your problem, not mine, if offense is taken.

You may just be the exception. The guy who can get it for free from lovely ladies as often as he likes, but chooses to pay for it because his wallet is too heavy.

Well im 25

There are 2 main reasons why I see SP's instead of dating

#1 First of all I have this thing for large natural breasts DD+. All of the ladies I have ever known or gone out on a date with are flat chested.  Its hard enough as it is to find a younger SP in my area with large natural breasts, its virtually impossible to find a busty lady if I where to play the dating game.  In addition even if I do, whats the chances that it will lead to you know what.

#2 I run a successful business, I just don't have time go go out on dates.  Its honestly easier for me to pick up the phone and call someone.