We had just finished an hour of very sensual lovemaking, followed by more talking, and I was dressed and all ready to go, but she wanted to talk a little more.  I had mentioned my belief that the most important factor in a woman's ability to have good relationships with men is the kind of relationship that she had with her father when she was a little girl.  She looked at me intently and asked "What if she never had a father?"

And this is what I said to her, word-for-word:

"I would say that a girl who didn't have a father would create a kind of mythical father in her mind.  He would be a wonderful father, kind, gentle, and strong.  He would always be very interested in her thoughts and feelings.  He would be her protector, and make her feel safe and secure.  When she grew up, she would look for a man like him.  But since he was a mythical father, no man would be able to live up to him.  And so she would always be disappointed in love".

I think this happens to a lot of women.  Their real father may have been there physically, but was emotionally absent for his daughter -- when this happens, the mythical father exists sometimes side-by-side with the real-life neglectful father, and sometimes blended together with him, but he is always a powerful presence.  These women sometimes describe themselves as Romantics.  Understanding why they feel this way, and how it is rooted in their childhoods, can be the first step toward breaking the pattern and being able to see men realistically as composites of both good and bad, as knowable, and as potentially good enough rather than ideal partners in life.

I don't know if others agree, but I have been told by many in the field and from what I have read, that fathers have an impact on how women grow up and feel about themselves sexually??

I never really considered the role a father would have in a daugher's life as being that influential compared to a son or a mother to a daughter..

What you described above fit Grace Kelly's profile to a tee.  SHe spent her whole life trying to win her father's approval.. Could never do it.. If you look at the men she had affairs with.. all of them were at least 15 to 20 years her age, almost all of them were married...


Its amazing how fucked up and scared we can become from not having the normal relationships  with parents.. Here I go again..

One of my favorite stories of all time, a novel, by John Steinbeck deals with the issue of favoritism, and how it impacts on a fathers children.. Actually it is a modern retelling of the Caan and Abel story, with a more sympathetic view point towards Caan. But this is not the thread for this....

I think your "Right On" with the absent Father figure and the creation of a Mythical figure head, but I can't agree on the rest of your analogy. As a Psycologist, I was taught the same theory. But in practice,I have since learned something quite different. When there is a father that is emotionally unavailable, or abusive, the daughter grows up with a totally different comfort zone than her more fortunate counter parts. She tends to not be content with the unfamiliar. Thus the question from most guys. "Why don't women want nice guys.?? "Oh, They think they do, but when they get us, they don't really want us and they keep going back to guys that treat them like Crap." The answer is, yes, those girls initally want what every girl wants, security,unconditional love, respect...etc...but the truth is, that's unfamiliar territory and their not comfortable with it, plus they have been conditioned to think they don't really deserve to be treated well so they pull away,..and if they are used to negative drama, nice guys are just plain boring to them as well.!!!  All hope is not lost, just as they were conditioned to respond to abuse, they can learn to be comfortable with the good guys...It just takes an excellent therapist(preferably cognative) and patience. And for you nice guys, healthy women want you, unhealthy ones run away. You can't "Save her" and it's NOT YOU..!!! Please stop trying to make her love you...SHE'S BROKEN and you CAN'T FIX HER...!!! When and if she wants things to change, she will change them, if not, don't waste your time. IMO....ciao, Robyn

You could well be right in your take on this..I certainly won't disagree.  But the one thing missing in your post was WHY a gal might have been without, or never knew, her father.  I believe the reason for it, as well as the particular gal's character traits, can lead wither to what you described or something almost the opposite.

I've known a few women (unfortunately married one when I was much younger & dumber) who had a father that deserted them when they were at a young age.  As a result, some of those seemed to harbor a deep-seated resentment of men in general..including my aforementioned ex.  But in the broader sense, that scenario can have almost the same effect in men as it does women.

Used to always chase after the wrong girls.. One day a female bartender observed that I was too nice... Of course if you really analyze it.. why was I chasing those girls that were unobtainable.. Probably because I too was afraid of real intimacy.  Fortunately, I got into therepy just at the time that I met my future wife.  Now that I am here.. I probably need to go back into it...

"former" through no fault of her own nor mine. She ran afoul of the wrong guy (a crazy but determinedly crazy old coot) and was forced to exit stage left.

We keep on communicating although the probability that we'll ever see each other again is maybe 1%. Such is bureaucracy. I guess we need each other somehow regardless of the ridiculous differences between us. E-relationships get as convoluted as real time relationships...

It is/was damn obvious that she needs help. Her competencies are so well developed that she could spend the rest of her live avoiding her deficiencies. I went through a phase of arguing for the value of therapy. She's dead set against it. According to her the whole thing is a fraud and nobody ever benefitted from it.

I kept telling her that until she understood herself better the same patterns of getting hooked up in massively dysfunctional relations would repeat over and over. She was adamant that she knew herself and how she wanted to run her life.

You know what's coming next right ? She hits the jackpot and gets her butt kicked into next year, metaphorically speaking...

After a while, she starts dropping these subtle little hints that maybe I am right but the very thought of admitting weakness or dependency on anyone is too horrible to contemplate, so she writes me stuff like "maybe it's because of my dual personality that I need to...." Even to see her use a hint of psychological languge or show the minutest grain of introspection is a major admission coming from her.

It isn't easy to suggest to another person that they need to get some fixing up, especially in this business where the facade of invulnerability is a must. First law of survival, show no fear.

Interesting thoughts.  I am not a psychologist, I did have an absentee father, and I do get bored with guys that are always the same, same. As well as days that are too patterned. My art, and talks/ shared concepts with other artists keep me stimulated, as well as the variety of people I meet through my work and travels.
In a lover, I must have both security and excitment, but NOT negative drama...I've had that and it gets old quick. I have better places to put my energy. I long for security, because that is what I don't get from my clients. The combination of both security and excitment has been hard to find for me, but I am still looking. Some people have told me that you can't have both, but I am choosing to try. What do you think?

My current wife's Father deserted her when she was born - and yes, I have had to learn (the hard way) that she has a deep seated resentment toward men.

TruthSpeaker, she should have asked you what went wrong in your upbringing that you agree to be part of the viscious cycle of pursueing the unachievable fantasy.

My initial sexual impressions were definitely made by my mother, as she was the person I spoke with regarding matter of sexuality and relationships, and it was she that "imprinted" my sexual growing up in my parents' household.  I feel that my father has very little to do with my sexuality, since it was not a subject I ever spoke with him about (not even once), and knew nothing of his own sexuality (not even a hint).  Both of my parents were/are very strict republican conservatives with social stature, and after beating back the severe inhibitions my mother had instilled in me (she was a puritanical southern baptist when it came to sexuality), I was able to explore and express my own sexuality on my own terms.  I was a very late "bloomer" that did not really "open up" to my own sexuality until I was well into my mid-20's.  Needless to say, I'm a born-again nympho now!  LOL

However, when it comes to love relationships, I only saw what was present in the kitchen, not the bedroom.  I did have a workaholic, somewhat "absentee" father, but the few times we did spend together were very fun and enjoyable, and we spent the majority of our time discussing his business, and aspects of personalities within the business environment.

As an adult with several years of distance from my parents' household, I have a very close relationship with both my parents.  I am able to discuss very personal issues, like sexuality and relationships, with my mother; she is my confidante.  I still have the "business-minded" relationship with my father, though I would not consider him to be a cold person, by any means.  Our discussions more likely than not turn into good-hearted debates which leaves me having learned much from his years of experience.

BJ, Palm Beach, Florida
[email protected]

What your problem is is the same as most every frustrated man - trying to find one woman that gives us a secure grounding AND the excitement of a nympho.  It's practically impossible to find.  Which is why we're all here.

My ATF - loves her dad.  In fact she's a daddy's girl.  No child abuse, no broken family.  No finger pointing.  No blame.  Her dad is still in her life like any normal dad - and she loves him dearly.  of course he has no idea what she does in her spare time.  The problem is in this case - no man will ever live up to daddy.  That can be almost as crippling in her male releationships as if he abandoned her.

I agree with your points, and in particular the point you made that many women with this type of family background feel that they do not deserve to be treated well, and will often withdraw out of discomfort from a relationship in which they are treated well.  Although they long for the non-existent man who can match the mythical father, more work needs to be done in addition to coming to a realization that a good-enough man can be a good partner -- they need to also get themselves to the point where they feel they are worthy of the good-enough man.

Also liked your point to the guys that this is something that SHE must decide to work through when she is ready to, and that they cannot "save" or "rescue" her.  "Rescue" attempts will not be helpful.  

I agree that the seductive father can be as problematic as the absent father.  Fathers who behave this way often have trouble letting go of the miniature woman who has given them the uncritical adoration they they do not get (not should they get) from their wives.  They create the daddy's girl who has often has the additional problem of thinking that she cannot be happy without a man, even as she fears "betraying" daddy by leaving him for another man.

That is partially true, but one thing she won't except is ABUSE. Daughters who have a loving relationship with their father, have a bar set very high, that most guys can't touch, and abusive relationships, either are ended very quickly, or never are allowed to develope. Just because a woman is a Provider, doesn't mean she had a bad relationship or a nonexistant one with her father, but may just enjoy pampering men, like "Daddy's Little Girl" and be able to make a living from it...These gals may just be the best SP since they have no pent-up anger, or unresolved issues, don't have to get high to excape...Just love pure pleasure...I hope that's what you've found...Kisses, Robyn

Hey guys and gals...stop blaming fathers, mothers, deep-seated causes, etc. and cease all that psycho-babble. All of these old Freudian-based ideas are completely unscientific and out-of-date. Life is short, make the best of the cards you're dealt, and get on with life.

what I've found, Robyn.  

>>>>I hope that's what you've found...Kisses, Robyn >>>

It's been tough to live up to daddy but it sure has been rewarding trying.

in a candid moment last year, a provider told me that she had been incestuously involved with her father from the age of six until she was sixteen years old, and the only reason they ceased having this involvement was because he moved across the country. She said that not only did she have no regrets, but she enjoyed it and fantasized that her father was having sex with her when she was with a client. I steadied myself as these were deeper waters that I knew what to offer the right advice about. From her appearance she had issues she was in denial about or wasn't able to make the connection between present choices she was making and her unconventional (to say the least) upbringing. In some ways she was a lovely refined woman with true dignity and poise, in other ways she was badly damaged. She says she still loves her father and is happy to be around him, but they have left their sexual involvement in the past.

unfortunately, for many it isn't easy to play the hand one is dealt, because of the difficulty in understanding what those cards are. The forces that have the greatest influence over us, the ones that fate us to this life or that life, happen in early to mid childhood. It is often said that we are "prisoners of our childhoods". That may sound too negative or limiting, but help is available. The role of the therapist is to help the client connect the dots, so the client can become aware of how much he or she is responsible for creating "reality" as the client believes it to be. Too many people are stuck in self limiting patterns, but they don't see the pattern, they only see a life where "this shit always happens". If they get the right therapist and put in the necessary time, the same people who feel doomed to inevitable outcomes may have a huge breakthrough that "it doesn't have to be this way". Part of the dysfunction of a bad childhood is the cloud of powerlessness that it leaves over the adult. The role of therapy at the next stage is to help the client regain control over his sense of self, so he is not so powerless, or trapped in absurd relationships, "always being cheated, put down, getting the short end of the stick", etc.

fathers, mothers, elders, siblings, important non family early figures, was the family economically stable or not, did the family have the strength to confront problems or did it retreat into denial, rationalization, acting out, etc. Alcoholic families have massive emotional swings, when mom or dad are "good drunk" they may be the most fun people in the world because they are so playful, disinhibited, childlike like adults are when they get bombed, but when mom or dad is "bad drunk" they can be terrifyingly abusive or stuporously unavailable. Even if the child grows up to be a milk and springwater drinking sober adult, he may find himself drawn to unavailable out-of-it types as well as wild over the top experiences.

Distinctly Freudian assessment.

What would Bandura have to say?

As hard as it may seem, all incestual relationships are not devastating(sp). I worked Crisis Intervention, years ago, and found that the only damage came with intimidation, fear, abuse, and social Mores. Children love their parents, obviously, they want attention and want to please...Since the fondling of genitalia, is pleasurable, if the child only feels good things, they don't relate the act to anything wrong. As a society, we have said this is wrong, but from a childs perspective, it's just a very warm,loving way to express their love. The damage is often done AFTER the discovery of such a relationship. As far as the comment about Psycho-Babble....It's true, people very often use the "Blame Game" to keep from taking responsibility for their own life. That's why it's so important to use Cognitive therapy...since it's about using our inner strengths to take control and make life altering decisions(sp). As a Therapist, I don't do "Long Term Therapy", Once we've identified the problem, it becomes the individuals decision, whether or not they want things to be different.I can't tell you how many times I've had to say "Shut the F*ck up, stop whining, pull yourself up by your boot-straps and get on with it..!!!" Life is about choices, we just, as seventhson stated, need to assist in identifying those choices, the rest is up to the client. I like to think of a good Therapist as a tutor, helping with, never actually doing, the students homework. I hope that helps...Peace, Robyn

while providers provide an escape from reality, I can understand wanting to get a little closer emotionally, but personally feel what you may end up hearing from many of them may well ruin the fantasy. To me this is dangerous territory.

but well may be the reason providers actually find this type of work so suitable, it is convenient and non committal thereby little emotional risk is involved not to mention the ability to find the 'ideal' father figure replacement temporarily by the hour.

Does this mean men who seek out providers have a mommy issue? rofl!

There is a fine line and crossing it while may make you feel special who cares if they are messed up really?  We can't fix everyone lol.

What if providers started psuedo counseling all the men they see about their dysfunctions or need to seek out providers, I think it would kill their biz.

Going one step further with this and getting too close, or analyzing:
do you really want to know if a provider has 3-5 kids from a variety of men and gets no child support and are your interested in findig out she got herself into this position?  Some things are better left unsaid!

Quite an acucrate statement by your nonetheless, your are quite perceptive thanks for sharing your wisdom

Robyn,
I beg to differ with you on incentous relationships not being damaging. Yes, if you lived in an isolated environment where societal mores had know way of impeding on your world, then you would be correct. But what you describe is nearly impossible.  Once a child is exposed to the outside world, they learn pretty quickly, that this is not normal behavior, and the consequences are devestating... It is sexual abuse in any language, or form that you care to describe it. No excuse for an adult in a parental role to engage in this type of behavior whether it is loving or not..  As far as cognitive therepy goes, yes I agree with you, but I do think that pscho dynamic therapy is critical to understand the undelying causes before a cognitive approach will work. Cognitive Therepy is a tool. It has its place just as behaviorist approach has its place.. You can use these tools to treat an alcholic but unless you get at the underlying root causes of the addiction, all you are doing is treating a symptom..

-- Modified on 2/9/2003 1:16:53 PM

The use of psychodynamic therapy in molestation and incest cases is generally not a solid foundation from which to engage the client.  If working with children the approach is play orientated if adults it is about decisions, choices and patterns of behavior. The issue is not will a client get better the issue do they wish to get better. Desire and motivation are 99% of the mental healing process. Cognitive and Brief Therapy Technique expose quickly the underlying  patterns allowing the therapist and client to readily expose any obstacles along the healing path. Psychodynamic intervention does little in the way of exposing concrete obastacle rather, it is imposes the therapist led definition of deep rooted ego fantasys that may or may not be experienced by the cilent.

As far as molestation and incest being okay minus social norms, I strongly disagree as molestation and incest are about objectification and manipulation and blurring of parental, child roles.  The molestor readily sees the child as an object of his or her desires and never once considers the impact of their behavior upon their victim. The one factor not mentioned is though the child may no know difference, the perpetrator in fact does and the game begins there and is at the root of the problem.

I'm sorry you misunderstood me. I never said incest was "OK", what I said was, it was not the act, unless an abusive one, that caused the problems that these children face. You are absolutely correct....There is no excuse for that to ever take place and I never would try to make one. The post I was responding to made mention of a loving relationship, all be it, incestual, between a Provider and her father. I merely stated that one should not assume she had been damaged or abused and that it may not have had anything to do with her becoming a provider. My statement about cognitive therapy was due to the fact that many people refuse to except responsibility for the choices they make, their entire lives, but blame everyone else if they're unhappy . True, some may stumble upon the answers on their own, after many years , but others need that "Tool" you mention and they need to know it's alright to use it, rather than never understand why they do the things they do. IMO, Long Term Therapy helps no one but the Therapist, make his mortgage every month...I know I'm stepping on some toes by saying that, but seeing the results in any situation, leaves one with two choices, continue or not. Just common sense, no hocus pocus....Peace, Robyn

Yeah babyyyyyyyyyy, right on point. Easier to assess the other more removed one then to study oneself in relation to them.  If TruthSpeaker wants the down and dirty, I am willing to listen to assessment of himself in relation to providers wno have experienced what he has so eloquently described.

Robyn,
I think I am clearer on your point.. I just find it impossible to believe that no matter how loving this relationship might have been described that it was not damaging to the provider.. But also agree that as adults we need to take responsibility in the here and now... I still think that it is valid to understand root causes, but ultimately you can only blame your parents so long, and you have to take responsibility for your own actions..

The Western Stage (see link) has twice done a play version of the book. It is usually done as three evening performances, but they did marthon performances on the weekends. Awesome experience (my wife and I saw the play in each run and were blown away both times).

If you are a Steinbeck fan I would rate this as a must see if they ever do it again. I don't think they have the rights from the estate to perform it anywhere other than the Salinas Valley, so you aren't likely to ever see it anywhere else.

Unfortunately, I have no idea if they will ever stage it again, but one can always hope. If they should do it again it will probably be in conjunction with the annual Steinbeck Festival put on by the National Steinbeck Center in Salinas.