If I agree to meet you off the clock it's because I really like you.  If it goes beyond into private time, it's considered mutual consent without any expectations of a monetary gift.  

Here's the confusion, if you contact me again for dinner or drinks are you assuming it's off the clock?  If there's no  mentioning any kind of monetary gift, as an Escort, am I right or wrong for establishing the boundaries before I accept?

I need help here because I think I just lost a special friend.

Bewildered & Confused

If it goes into private time and it's not by "mutual consent", it's known as battery.  Or worse.

Money can't buy consent.  Money can buy time at so much per hour but consent is priceless.

No. If your "gent" contacts you for dinner or drinks, he should not assume it's "off the clock."  Since you are running a business and he's "shopping", he should assume the market rate prevails.

Think Walmart.  If Walmart wants to establish a "special" friendship with you, it would be RIGHT-Y-Oh to let you know that all the goods are free before you shop.  If Walmart just wants to put the goods on "sale", it won't use ESP.  It will engage in marketing....

I hope I understood your question and my comments are on point.

In my opinion, a guy should never assume that a single occasion should set the tone for all future encounters.  You are not unreasonable for establishing boundaries for each occasion.  Frankly, you should not have to be the one to bring it up.  Your "friend," knowing this is the way you earn your living, should be the one to enquire as to whether you would once again enjoy the pleasure of his company "off the clock."  

The company for which I work sells products.  Frankly, I am offended when "friends" call me for freebies without offering to pay.  And just because I offer a freebie once does not entitle the cheap bastards to expect it all the time.  The last time I got a call for freebies I sent the guy discount coupons for web orders--hint, hint.

I think it is unreasonable of your friend to terminate a friendship based on a misunderstanding caused by his own overstepping or insensitivity.

Guys--just because a lady is nice to you does not give you an excuse to take advantage.  They often are nice to you because it is good for business to do so, not because you are God's gift to women or they have fallen prey to your manly charms.  Sometimes they are nice to you because they truly like you.  Keep perspective and be respectful of the business relationship.  Try to avoid creating uncomfortable situations by facing issues head on, and don't become full of yourself.  

If I understand, you gave it to him for free and now you want him to pay for it.  

If you expect to be paid and suspect he thinks it's free, then it's right to bring it up.

When you asked him to pay, you took the risk that he may decline and you would lose him.


-- Modified on 10/4/2003 9:16:22 PM

you all ready know that it's always best to discuss this stuff ahead of time.  A very similar thing happened to me.  I never assumed and was prepared with the donation on the next session.  She gave me a special rate from that day on.  Her mentioning the special rate was an indicator.  I remember thinking "am I going to get this for free for the rest of opur time?"  I knew it was wishfull thinking, but the comment about the special rate took all the guesswork out of it.

I know I was very greatful.

Hope that helps.

I would ask if we were meeting on or off the clock.  But not every man will ask that so you need to make it clear from the beginning.  I've gone out with providers off the clock but I've always made sure that we each knew what the other's expectations were in the big picture.  Sometimes the line gets fuzzy and open and honest communication helps keep everything clear.  (If I want confusion, I'll get married!).  

It may be tough to accept this but if he really is a special friend, he will call you again.

Comes with the job, Bewildered.

When you meet someone in this line of work, the opportunity for that confusion already exists.   Your defense is to be clear on the first social occasion to say you are willing to cross a line to friendship or not ....

but GENERALLY .....

If you're willing to meet 'off the clock' for drinks with a particular client, then you've crossed the "dinner and drinks" line with THAT client.   You knew it, you did it - you live with the consequences of it:  from that day forward, drinks, movies and dinner are freebies  (hand jobs unter the table are still billable)

If you're not willing to cross the line, then you be clear that an 'off the clock' meeting is a SINGLE freebie, not unlike the way hotels in Vegas comp a player once in a while (or all the time if he spends enough money in the casino).

So ... if this guy drops a lot of money in YOUR casino, go ahead and have drinks for free.

From the moment you do something off the clock with someone any other meetings afterwards is freebies?  Isn't that taking advantage of someone?  I really think that shows a lack of respect especially when this person knows escorting supplements a part of my living expenses.  Why would someone I thought was interested in me want to take away from my livelihood?

If I called and asked you again out to dinner or drinks, I would be assuming it's off the clock. If, when I called, you asked if I was seeking an appointment or just wanted to go out, I wouldn't be offended.

cuz very infrequently you do meet girls that you see outside the bizness, for lunch or dinner but no (free) sex ... if it's a girl you like, why not? in fact, why not call it "friendship" ???

$0.01

So, whaddya think about doing friend things together (spend the day or evening with) but only the private times are 'on the clock'? How well does that work? Or are you saying it doesn't?

If you spent time with a client "off the clock" and didn't say that it was an "exception", then it is understandable that he would think that you are inviting him in closer (because YOU decided to "cross the line"), but that any "meals" are still on the clock.  If that was the case, then he would still be "supplementing" you, and would still be "showing respect".  However, the responsibility for establishing these rules would be yours, as you are the one with the boundaries.

Without knowing the details of how this came about between the two of you, it is hard to know how to respond.  However, it sounds like you didn't think ahead of time how he might take your "crossing the line", and you got upset that he made what most would think is a natural assumption, and put him back down, and he feels he is being teased.  If you thought he was interested in you, you should have known he would think that if you let him cross the line and didn't set up any boundaries ahead of time that the "rules" had changed, at least for "appetizers", if not for "entrees".  If you didn't think of this,  is you who are showing him a lack of respect by not apologizing to him.

It would offend him big time if you were to spring it on him while the two of you were on an "off the clock" date. That's something that has to be discussed and arranged beforehand. Issues like these could be avoided if the terms were discussed up front.  Nevertheless, just because you give him one freebie doesn't mean all subsequent dates afterwards are free - get real!

> So, whaddya think about doing friend things together
> (spend the day or evening with) but only the private
> times are 'on the clock'? How well does that work? Or
> are you saying it doesn't?

As I more or less stated in a post on or about 9/15, friendship can and does work. The circumstances may be extra-ordinary, but it is possible. It absolutely, positively depends on open, honest, adult communication. Sex and relationships can be confusing enough, but a hybrid personal/professional relationship in this hobby could probably set a psychiatrist up for life.

Sedona, my situation works out like you describe above most of the time. We have spent a day, evening, and in one instance a weekend together in friendship. I always take care of any incidentals, reservations, entrance fees, expenses, etc. We have always worked out ahead of time how much 'private time' she wishes to be compensated for. She shows up (or I pick her up) and we have a real good time together. She is truly one of my closest friends. She just happens to have an unusual job.

The bottom line, really, is that you have to respect each other and communicate. I don't mean _have_ respect (the noun) for each other, but RESPECT (the verb) each other. There's a difference. I have professional respect for several people I know, but don't respect who they are (they are lacking in character).

thanks for this info becuz my atf and i have crossed the line into dating.  she agonized over whether to charge me for just being together and finally decided she'd rather just have "fun" with me.  I understand I should probably not take it for granted in the future, but will ask if this is free time or fee time.  It is uncomfortable, but a necessary part of avoiding misunderstandings.

This brings up something that's been discussed previously; i.e., the guy who posts "hey, I've got tickets to watch two guys try to pummel each other to death. Any ultra-sexy provider want to hang on my arm during this disgusting spectacle, then retire to motel six with me for free afterwards?"

(maybe you can tell what I think of boxing)

What I'm wondering about, is, ARE there situations where the SITUATION itself is enough to make accompanying a client - partly in exchange for services - worth doing it without your usual compensation?

For example, let's say the guy is willing to take you to Europe, first class, spend a week in Michelin starred hotels eating great food/wine and taking privately escorted (by the guides who know what they're talking about, not just by him) tours of great cultural and historical sites. The trip will cost him $5000-$6000 or more for YOU, and an equivalent amount for himself.

Are there circumstances where you'd go just because he's decent in the sack and the trip itself sounds like a great vacation?

My guess is that there's SOME "pricepoint" at which such arrangements make sense, and that accepting them would not be "crossing the line" as regards future encounters at home. In other words, I can see why providers take offense at the offer of free concert tickets in exchange for their services, but sometimes the offfer could be sweet enough to make it worthwhile.

I'm not attempting to be condescending by asking this question. I AM attempting to learn if I'll be considered offensive asking this assuming I find the right lady for my planned trip

Opinions?

Here's how it typically works for us. Mind you, we've been at this for a little while, so our comfort level may be different than yours.

One of us discovers something we'd like to share with each other, be it a movie, play, gallery opening, concert, a day trip, whatever. It's easier when she initiates, since she knows what her schedule is. If she sets it up and it's strictly a "friendship" date then no $ ever exchanges hands. We often split costs, though I enjoy picking up the incidentals (sappy gentleman behavior, but it makes me feel good). If I set it up, I pick up the tab.

If there's fun time involved, I put her normal rate, per her fee schedule, in a card (I love shopping for just the right card) and give it to her. Sometime during the course of the day she extracts an amount and subtlely returns the balance. I am often surprised at what she returns. On occasion she has returned everything.

This way, she decides. She doesn't feel taken for granted and I don't get uncomfortable talking business or trying to figure out how to compensate her. Now if I _just_ want to see her for some "sin and spin" I compensate her for her time.

I like it

Bewlidered ....

You can make as good a living providing sexual services as you care to make (for the most part).   Certainly you can supplement that basic income by also charging to meet with clients for drinks and dinner, but you make it sound like you don't drink OR eat unless someone is paying you.  

You admitted that YOU agreed to see him off the clock BECAUSE YOU LIKED HIM .. and then when he assumed that further social meetings were ALSO off the clock (because YOU opened the door) you got yourself into a situation where you "lost a special friend" ?????    First, you either like this guy and enjoy his company or you don't.  Second, if you DO enjoy his company and you see him socially off the clock .. tell me here ... exactly what are you losing in the deal?  

Now if you're saying that he expected sexual services also for free, then I would agree that he was presuming.  I take exception to your comment about 'showing lack of respect' though.   It doesn't show that in any way at all!  It shows that he took your lead (which you apparently were unclear about) and then MISUNDERSTOOD - that's ALL.

So .. there are your options.

If he was expecting free sex, chalk it up to him misunderstanding conflicting signals from you.

If he was merely expecting further social interaction off the clock and this has somehow lead to you thinking that he has no respect for you, ask yourself

"Exactly how greedy and self centered AM I?"

I know it's hard to offer opinions without having any facts and I didn't mention pertinent details because I didn't want my identity discovered. I've read all the posts and everyone has been so honest in sharing their feelings because it is a major concern for most providers and we can't always make the right decisions.

We've known each other for 2yrs and had dates which all included gifts. During our 'off the clock' date he asked how an arrangement worked and I explained what I thought would work for us (time & gifts). We didn't agree to anything, we just merely discussed it.  Fast forward, we discussed meeting again and I asked if the allowance would start. He said he didn't agree to anything and thought we were meeting off the clock because I liked him. I explained why I needed compensation and never heard from him again, that's it in a nutshell.

Sounds like you didn't agree to see him off the clock.  Sounds like you agreed to see him ON the clock with a simple substitution of gifts for time versus cash for time.

He wanted to see you as a FRIEND and NOT as a client and that wasn't what you had in mind.

He's better off where ever he is now ... and you learned a valuable lesson (we hope):   Don't make the mistake of thinking that your Incredible Lightness of Being just by itself is enough to make seeing you worth gifts - either he's a client and you get paid for doing your job, or he's a friend and you both give yourselves freely.  In the former, time is money and money is expected.  In the latter, he gives gifts if and when the spirit moves him - and not under any 'conditions' imposed upon him by you.

You are in charge. If you decide to spend time off the clock it is your decision. A guy should also know that he should not expect anything of you or your time off the clock. make sure he understands anything HE requests is always on the clock, and if you want to spend time with him off the clock it will be at YOUR suggestion. While this should be understood, sometimes it gets blurred in a guys head if you have already spent time off the clock socially. You maake the rules, just make sure he understand them.

As some others responding have pointed out in different ways,it's "assumptions" that can create many problems.  There  isn't necessarily a good-guy & bad-guy in every situation, & that can easily be true in a scenario such as this.

If it's the gal who makes the suggestion, I think she should make clear up front what is & isn't going to be off-clock..or even if she also has any intimate activity in mind.  And if she fails to do that, the guy should simply ask & not have expectations that may be beyond what the gal had in mind.  If it's the guy who makes the suggestion, he should also make it clear exactly what he's suggesting.  

Seems rather simple to me...shouldn't be that difficult to discuss between two people who know each other well enough to even consider anything off-clock at all.  What am I missing here?    

You're coming down pretty hard on "Bewildered."

I am new at this - far too new to know whether I'll ever see providers "off the clock" for anything. Far too new to know whether the ladies who REALLY seem to enjoy my company are just better actresses than those who manage to get through the time with enough athleticism to make it physically acceptable.

Sounds as though there may have been misunderstanding on both sides here. She is concerned that she's lost a friend - which I take to mean she enjoys his company enough that there are circumstances where she'd agree to meet him "off the clock."

This board is FULL of discussions - both from clients and providers - the past few days, relating openly the complexity of personal feelings that something so intimate as this generates on both sides. I've read posts that make it sound as though the (provider) poster has the clock running any time there's someone with a y-chromosome in the same zip code. I've read posts from hobbyists who think anyone in this business LACKING a y-chromosome is duty-bound to bend over and spread for anyone willing to open his wallet. Fortunately, I've also read posts from people who have incredible empathy for their partners in these brief encounters. I'm not casting you into any of those cubbyholes - though it's obvious you DO have the y-chromosome

Intoxicating stuff, isn't it?!

I apologize if this was already brought up.

You are a paid consultant. You are paid for your time and companionship.

If you had a lawyer friend who answered a legal question for you for free, would you then ask them to handle a complex legal case for you for free? The answer only lay within the pre-discussed boundaries of the friendship. I would not ask my friend, special or not, to give me their hard earned expertise for free.

Even if I use a friend as a model for one of my paintings, I will pay them a token fee, even if it is to keep things professional.

OK with that said, If you want to give your time and companionship (and expertise) away for free that is up to you. I am also a business consultant that gets over $500.00 per hour, I have given many hours to friends. I have expected nothing in return, but it is always on my terms and with a pre-discussed understanding

Was it discussed or just happened that way?

I can't speak for other escorts but to be perfectly honest, i've had quite a few trips of this kind. The deciding factor has always been whether I liked this person enough to spend such quality time with him. I've never taken trips of this kind with anyone I haven't seen less than twice and I've been on some wonderful weekend and extended trips to some of the best 5 star resorts I could only dream of and have bonded with some wonderful men who are great friends now.

As for negotiations for trips of this kind, there weren't any. I was invited and I've never looked at it as a loss of income but as a once in a lifetime experience.

I can only speak from experience when it comes to this discussion.  I personally haven't seen any of the gentlemen I've taken trips with as an escort because I felt it would interfere with the friendship or bond that was formed. I also haven't seen them off the clock either for the same reasons.  I would only agree to see them again for a weekend or extended trip and if this never happens, then we'll always be friends and i'll always have the memories when I look back and reminise.

xoxo
Tygrlily

The first time I saw her I knew that there was something different about her. She rocked my world on many levels. It wasn't until I saw her a second time several months later that I found out I made a similar impression.

She ended up inviting me to stay the night and we spent most of it talking. It was like discovering a childhood friend you never knew you had. We talked often after that. The third time I saw her she returned everything. I didn't discover it until I got home and emptied my pockets.

We had a long conversation at that point. This was obviously something out of the ordinary and I wanted to make sure that there were no misunderstandings. By that time, I would have been devastated if I lost her friendship. Stop and think for a moment, how many _real_ close friends do you have. The kind you wouldn't hesitate to call to come get you at 3:00 in the morning in an ice storm. I can count mine on one hand and she's one of them (though she'd have to fly to come get me).

Anyway, things evolved from there. We are always open and honest with each other. For me it defines "friends with privileges".

I think it's because Pig suspects Bewildered isn't a provider.

Bewildered..All I have to say is listen to The Professor Tom Leykus on 97.1 afternoon drive time baby.. Tom always says.. Get women to go to places where ALCOHOL is served the more they drink the better chances of you getting Laid..

the professor  of Leykus 101 also says...Women US We are Attention Whores.. and basically as you know most of us Adult Entertainers are used to attention and as much as we deny it..We love attention.. And I think you do too.

Also Dr. Leykus says.. Never spend more than $40 on a female on drinks including the tip..

He also encourages the men to say whatever it takes to get them in bed for FREE...okay As an ESCORT most of us listen to Leykus 101 so we will know what to expect..Trust me I have called into Tom's show and some of my fans were listening and I got some appts that same week.. Anyway..what I am saying is you are sitting here feeling sorry for yourself and asking everybody this STUPID question when YOU are a big girl..a  professional woman you know the rules baby..Business before Pleasure even if you business is pleasure.. if not you are just like all these other women out there who don't demand the men to pay to play.. and if you want to be in that category and cannot speak up and think that everyone likes you.. hello..no matter how sexy you are  all the men do not want to be with YOU okay.. you are sexy you have a great body..Big Deal..he probably has a babbling nag at home that is always complaining and when you offered him up $1500 worth  of your time 3 hours upstairs not counting the downstairs time..That was your own stupid fault.. seriously..

You just got played the Leykus 101 game.. He is in no form or fashion gonna pay you one red cent now and if he was your friend....hello he would have given you the funds..he probably is broke.. he is lying as Tom Leykus teaches the men to do..

If you want to play this game you have got to step up.. Listen to men's stations and learn what they talk about.. I listen.. and I can recognize a Leykus 101 man..there are millions of them out here..  

This is such a stupid question seriously..He does not want to see you.. He does not care about you..He is NOT your friend.. a friend would not try to get the pooo nanny for free if he knows it cost.. but you make Leykus 101 correct because you like most women want him to give it to him for FREE then when you go home think about it after the drinks are worn off you realize heck i did not get paid.. see thats why i have so many rules on my website.. They have to pay a deposit from the start because NO free nothing.. on mstitty.net

I just think you dont' even need these people to answer you... You just need to say.. Well truthfully i felt like I needed some attention and I did not care about the money because I am an attention whore like Tom Leykus says.. Please dont' make them out to pin point us.. pay attention..Put your game face on girlfriend.. now you are sitting her crying.. Do you want some cheese with that wine????

We are cool. I already told you this in private but i needed to post it too so maybe if there are any Leykus 101 listeners out there they can make some noise and let us here it....... wooo hoo

hugs n juggs

Shar Nitzapanus "Ms.Titty"