I don't give a sh*t about a provider's ethnicity, I care about looks, service, intelligence, etc etc.

But I notice that many agencies - and some providers themselves -hide the ethnicity of black (African-American) providers.  They are described as "mixed-race", "Puerto Rican", "Columbian", etc etc.  There was even a post about it here.

Recently I saw a lovely provider, sexy, beautiful, and intelligent.  She was described as "Tahitian", but she's obviously African-American.  Why hide that?  Is it something to be ashamed of?  I hope not, it should be a source of pride.  And it certainly doesn't bother me.

Is there so much discrimination out there that women feel the need to misrepresent themselves in order to get business?  And guys, do you think the way I do, or are you reluctant to see an African-American woman?

nor, will I ever deny it. It says Black on my birth certificate, and Black is what I will always be. Proud

Melinda

Well said and it is right of you to bring this up.  I know of several providers who are very dark skinned African-American, Malaysian, or Indian providers whose pictures are clearly modified and whose descriptions are way off the mark.

If it's an agency that's doing it, it maddens me, shame on them for lying to us, but more importantly, what they're saying to her.  If the gal is doing it herself, it saddens me that anyone feels compelled to deny who they are.

Because, unfortunately, chocolate is not nearly in much in demand as vanilla, cinnamon, or my favorite, almond. My last two chocolate dates in the hobby in North America* were the lovely and formidable Sexy Cindy (reviewed) of Toronto, most recently last July and the stunning porn star Bronze (9.25/8.5), in 2000 . The latter lived 5 minutes away from me and could have come over as often as she wanted, but we couldn't agree on the price. C'est tragique, on ne peut pas les gagner tous. Both are class acts and highly recommended if available.

Forgive me for saying this but I think part of the problem might be one of stigmatization, we tend to associate African-American and working girl with pimped out or otherwise ghettoized. The perception is negated by such ladies as the former Jasmine Goodheart (who has retired and changed her name about as often as her hair color, I'm sure someone will supply me with her current working name) of SF, Ella of LA (who was last seen dancing in Vegas and having a great time doing it), and TygrLily also from LA (whom I have sparred with here on occasion, but differences aside, she is extremely articulate when her emotions don't take over), but still I believe it exists. Would love to be proven wrong on this issue, but I don't think it's happening.



*in Europe, I strongly recommend the gorgeous mulattas Rosa (Brasil) working at Bailen 22 in Barcelona, 9/9; and Lisa ("Lisa Fantastica") (Cuba), 8.5 (with a 10 body, and the best ass and legs you will see on a woman ever)/9.5, working alternatively the higher end places like Bailen 22 in BCN or in Germany at Altantis outside of Frankfurt. Bring your phrase book.

I am a caucasian male and i would not see a black provider thats just personal prefrance. I have many black friends.
I meet a white provider who asked me on the phone my race.
whem i got to her i asked her why she asked and she said she does not see black men.
Kosher

-- Modified on 12/23/2003 7:18:34 AM

then it is "bad" already -- rather it is viewed as such by most people in this industry

unfortunately, that's the way it is (not the way it should be)

I personally dont care either..but I know for a fact(i used to work at an agency..and did the phones to help out..and we could never ever get apts for the black girls..even if everyone else was booked they would ask "is she black" forget it..they would say..for whatever reason..most clients did not want to see them..we even gave lower rates for them...there are some men who prefer black girls..like blondes ..but for the most part most clients wont see them..now dont go thinking this is my opinion because its not..

if they're "mixed" they're "mixed". Should they be ashamed of this and say they're black?

I agree that no one should lie or be ashamed of their ethnicity, but if they don't consider themselves to be "black" then why should they claim to be?

What is "black" under your definition? Of African decent?

This is, in no way a flame. Just that I think we all get too wrapped up in the ethnicity crap. Give me a picture. If she is attractive, let me decide. I have my own preferences for looks, so I'm more than capable of deciding for myself. I say, give me a picture with no "I am of xxx ethnicity".

Frankly, the woman I've seen the most, (a friend says she's my ATF) is very mixed ethnically. I thought she was mixed with some African American until she told me for sure what she was. Now I know, and will hopefully see her again, very soon.

This thread is a variation on a theme that has been discussed time and time again, both here and on TheOtherBoard. (For some reason, it seems to surface more frequently there than here.) Anyway, as the year draws to a close, I cannot help but offer some personal reflections on "the issue."

Personally, I would echo the first sentence of this thread. "I don't give a sh*t about a provider's ethnicity, I care about looks, service, intelligence, etc etc." Of the 45 lovely ladies I have had the pleasure of spending time with this year, 7 have been African-American. (Well, one of them is literally, although not in the commonly accepted definition of the phrase - she was born in Africa and emigrated to the US. Some of the Philadelphia members may know to whom I refer.)

Interestingly, 7/45 equals 15.2%, which is fairly close to the 12.1% of the US population which is African-American, according to the 2000 Census. Now, there may be some deep significance to this personal statistic - or there may be none at all.

This ethnic factoid regarding my year's straying is certainly NOT in any way a result of any design or intent on my part. I would be the last person to defend, let alone personally practice, affirmative action (a/k/a a quota system) as it is practiced in this country - clearly, the recent University of Michigan case was wrongly decided. Perhaps it indicates merely that, at least when it comes to perceptions of female beauty and the desires to savor it, I am truly colorblind.

Actually, even the use of the word "colorblind" in this context is a malapropism - a better expression would be color-indifferent. I am certainly not blind to the color of a lady's skin, which would imply that I do not see it at all. Of course I see it, and it is but one of her physical features, neither positive nor negative in itself, the totality of which make her beautiful in my eyes (else I would not be seeing her). But I digress . . .

Whenever this topic surfaces on either of these boards, the thread usually metastasizes. Charges of racism are made against ladies who prefer not to see gentlemen of color. Sympathy is expressed for the men who find themselves the "victims" of such "racism." I too feel sympathy for a gentleman who has been refused by a provider because of the color of his skin. But . . .

It is in the nature of this hobby, and is absolutely inevitable, that there is an inherent difference between ladies who prefer not to see men of color and clients who prefer not to see ladies of color. (And yes, I know some of the following observations have been made before - but I am trying to see the forest through the trees.) And the big difference is how they are treated with regard to one of the great questions of our time and our hobby: is a person who has such a preference a racist?

The men with such a preference will never, ever have to admit to it and thereby open themselves up to accusations of racism. (I note that another contributor to this thread does admit to such a preference though he, like I, hides behind a newly-minted alias. Such is the nature of this type of discussion, I suppose.) Clients can always hide a preference simply by never contacting a provider of color.

A lady with the same preference may try to hide it, and may sometimes succeed, but at some point will probably have to state her preference, either in public or in private (which may or may not remain private), when she is approached by a prospective client of color whom she does not wish to see. And when she does, the condemnation descends upon her.

This leads to an interesting intersection between racism and sexism, at least as those terms are defined, used and abused by members of the political correctness club. It is the members of this club, those who will be the first to make the accusations of racism, who should, if they were intellectually honest, decry loudly the sexism inherent in the fact that men can immunize themselves from such charges, while women cannot.

(Of course, it could be argued that anyone who holds those views commonly defined as "politically correct" and who finds themselves here, reading these comments, participating in this hobby and lifestyle is, a priori, either intellectually dishonest or a hypocrite. After all, this hobby is anathema to feminism of the Andrea Dworkin variety, which feminism is one of the underlying foundations of politically correct thought. But again I digress . . .)

Actually, it seems I have strayed quite far from the topic of the original post. I hope I have not planted and fertilized the seeds of another "does having a racial preferance regarding who we will and will not share the most intimate of personal contact with constitute racism?" thread. That is a thread which will continue to recur, because the question has no answer upon which all, or even a simple majority, can agree. But hopefully it will not recur now, at this time of the year.

So, to return to the original post, of the ladies of color whom I have seen in this hobby, independents all, none have described themselves as anything other than who they are and none have pictures on their sites which present them as lighter-skinned than they are. And I hope that I will never have the misfortune to schedule a rendezvous with a lady who feels the need to misrepresent herself in such a way, for I will surely be disappointed upon meeting her - disappointed not because she is darker than I had been led to believe, but rather because she felt the need to mislead.

And on that note . . . I wish a happy and joyful holiday to all, and may all have a properous and safe New Year.

what made you pick that lady that was described as Tahitian?  Don't you think that something out of the ordinary like that sticks out on all the advertisements on escort malls.  
Just seems like good advertising to me.
Oh and please describe to me how an obvious African-American person looks like.  
Sort of trippy sometimes when I meet what you call an African-American person and they are speaking spanish and don't speak or understand english. What got me one time was this black guy who had a filipino accent and spoke tagalog.

Every black person is of mixed race whether one believes it or not. I've traced my ancestry to Tahitian, French and Cherokee Indian and chose to express it on my website.

French, Irish, Dutch
German, English, Swedish

I've seen this and a lot more on different sites, why isn't this ever questioned or discussed?

No it's definitley not!
I'm a white guy who loves black women!

Happy Holidays Megan,
If I ever get out to vegas, I will have to see you. Everytime you post I have to check you out on your site. You're an amazing woman!
Have a great, safe and healthy Holidays!

-Dave

OH my!

I'm as WASP as you can get. All Northern European ancestry.

Frankly, I don't care about ethnicity unless it's a discusion about heritage. I agree, African Americans, along with pretty much every other American, is of mixed ethnicity.

For you, if you choose to put your ethnicity on your site, that's fine. All I'm saying is that it doesn't matter to me. I would have looked at your site and said, "Oh my!" ;0

I would be more than happy to request time with you, and it has nothing to do with you putting your ethnicity on your site. I'm quite capable of seeing that you have mixed ethnicity. It's just not that important to me.

Hey, that's fair enough.  I've said before that we bridge the fine line between business (where everyone should be entitled to equal access) and romance (where everyone is entitled to their own preferences and should never ever have to justify their preferences to anyone.)

My gripe isn't with people who have a preference one way or the other, only with people who feel that deceiving the hobbyist, and making the provider feel like the hobbyist needs to be deceived...  No good can come from any of that.  None.

I don't mind the race or back ground of any lady I choose to see in the hobby.   I have been with several women of color and also some forigners.   I like the variety of the Buffet and think that some of us need to lighten up a little as we are all God's childern.   I can't wait to meet Tygerlilly as I know she is a classy lady.   Hopefully she will thing that I am a respectful gentlemen.

It wasn't her ETHNICITY - Like I said, I just don't care - it was her double-d's, if you really want to know!!!

I agree with every thing that was said here.  This is my opinion:  I think that it clearly has alot to do with our culture, as many have said or implied.  Black women are stereotyped as dirty, poor, low-class, diseased, and pimped-out.  Our society chooses to idealize white women, at least partly as a mechanism of oppression, thus providing a means of unfavorable comparison for black women.  It's truly sad, but my theory is that those hobbyists who choose solely (or mostly) to see black women are "slumming."  It's probably kinky for them to do something forbidden or to be with someone who is low-status or poor -- thus making them feel powerful and dominant.  OBVIOUSLY there are many exceptions, and I don't think we need to hear every single one.  

But I do have one more thought.  It is possible that biology comes into play here slightly.  Men are biologically "programmed" to unconsciously seek out women with youthful features, such as large eyes and a small nose.  On average, black women have somewhat larger noses than northern European whites (so do Asians, Arabs, and Jews).  The typical preference for white and Latina providers may thus be a form of sexual selection within a population that has a wide range of sexual choices.  I remember reading in my college history textbook about the slave trade in the late middle ages.  The book talked about the keeping of WHITE FEMALE slaves (mostly Greeks and Eastern Europeans) by African kings for sexual purposes.  (Of course the book also described the keeping of black female slaves in China for sexual purposes, which sort of negates my theory.)  Let me know what you think.

I just think it's as simple as someone's personal taste.  I personally do not find black ladies sexually attractive.  It could be as simple as that.

Ditto!  I've been told by more than one person that I have "jungle fever", hehe.  If you don't believe me, check out my reviews.....

Oh, and Tygrlily, woman, you're out of this world; you look about half your age!  When are you comin' to Seattle again?

Why do you say that men who choose to see black providers are "slumming"? I am neither low-status nor poor and I would hate to think that someone has to lower their "standards" to see me. In fact, I was a debutante raised in a very well established family. Socio-economic status has nothing to do with a client choosing to see a particular race. Could it just be that the clients prefer our "rounder" bodies?

-- Modified on 12/23/2003 9:30:44 PM

I'm not flaming - from what you say it's your taste, not racism.  

But I've seen Tygrlily, Vanessa Vixen, and others, and they're gorgeous; not because they're black, they're just beautiful women.  Is there a (straight) man on the planet who wouldn't step over his mother to pork Halle Barry or Tyra Banks?

Or to put it another way, is there anyone who wouldn't see Halle, Tyra, Tygrlily or Vanessa,  but would if they believed they were something other than African-American?

I'm a Black male and I had several white women refuse service to me. I usually go about my business and keep my money in my pocket. Never had a problem with women of color though.

But I'm quitting the hobby anyway, too dangerous.

Kosher, while I respect your preferences, I cannot let you off the hook for the "I HAVE BLACK FRIENDS" comment.  Never say that in an intelligent conversation with African Americans present.  Just a tip.

IMHO, sexual preference is very much a personal thing and so is attraction.  It is true that you can't please all the people all of the time and no one should try.  Sometimes it is comical to see someone obviously not of mixed race touting themselves as black/irish/korean all in one but I'd say it is a mere form of advertising, albeit that perhaps at its base it is founded on the support of an unjust, yet unavoidable historical perception.  
It was actually a case like this which made up my mind to be an independent.  I won;t go into detail, but suffice it to say that knowing that with an agency, the guy may always be asked.."..and which ethnicity do you prefer?" that by default he will probably choose white or asian, thus automatically disqualifying myself from that ballgame!  However, as an independent, the guy knows what I am upfront and when he calls me, it's because he has made an active choice to want to see me.  I list myself as black/creole and this is the truth..my lineage is directly through  my maternal grandmother from Louisiana.  
Anyways, it is hard not to stay strictly objective when this issue actually pertains directly to my ethnicity, yet I believe the trends in the hobby do indeed reflect the sign of our times and what is valued and revered as female beauty in our western society has historically been ingrained in our psyche and ends up being the "ideal".  Unavoidable, once again, but many of my fellow brown skinned providers continue to thrive despite it all, as do I, and, personally, I can do without those missed opportunities with more mainstream clients..it's their loss but I'm sure they are doing just fine without me, and likewise!!! ;P

.. I'm a big interracial fan anyway. I believe everyone should  date African-American men and women.

Guys and Gals,you don't know what you are missing if you don't have interrracial relations. For me it is really intense.It is a major turn-on.

Exactly why I stopped working fo an agency too. Sometimes they "forgot" to mention my color and imagine my embarrasment when I was turned away (and more often than not it was by African-American men). I prefer being independent too, at least the client knows what he's getting up front.

"Or to put it another way, is there anyone who wouldn't see Halle, Tyra, Tygrlily or Vanessa,  but would if they believed they were something other than African-American?"

Wow--well said...  In the context of this conversation, this question really does just cut right to the heart of the matter, doesn't it?

Ah, but Ashana, herein lurks the hidden danger when topics as sensitive as this one are discussed this openly, and in this kind of anonymous forum.

Unfair stereotypes exist, it is a sad fact of life.  But all too often the person who attempts to illuminate the stereotype, or even confesses to having a steretype that they acknowledge as being unfair, is then in turn asked to justify the stereotype.

I think Aug5 is simply trying to "confess" that sexual attraction is rooted in many social factors, most of which are indeed unfair.  Stereotypes about race, nationality, and religion by their very nature often lead to value judgements about unrelated factors like economic status.

Even your post could be construed by a provider of very low economic status as being condescending...  By using your membership in the debutante class as the reason why one isn't lowering their standards to see you, you imply that one might be lowering their standards by seeing someone in a lower economic class.  I think we all dream of a world where a person is judged by the content of their character, not by the color of their skin OR their economic situation.

-- Modified on 12/24/2003 12:56:29 AM

Recently an article about the year 2000 Census mentioned that nearly 7 million Americans reported that their ancestry included two or more "races."  The real number of multi-racial Americans is certainly a lot more and the number of multi-racial children continues to grow.  I pay little attention on how a provider classified her ethnicity, instead I look at her photographs (and ter reviews) to help make my decision.

But I've seen Tygrlily, Vanessa Vixen, and others, and they're gorgeous; not because they're black, they're just beautiful women.  Is there a (straight) man on the planet who wouldn't step over his mother to pork Halle Barry or Tyra Banks?

Or to put it another way, is there anyone who wouldn't see Halle, Tyra, Tygrlily or Vanessa,  but would if they believed they were something other than African-American?



These are beautiful women. I am not familiar with vannesa and just looked a Tiger Lily's website.
I would like to say that it is fairly obvious that Tyra Banks and Halle berry have plenty of white blood in them. That certainly leads to their beauty.
I don't understand why this subject has to always come up. It is as if someone is trying to push some "victim" status for the black community. I should feel like a victim. Black women don't want to date me. In fact most are downright condensending towards myself and other white men. Where is the uproar and concern for my feelings?? There will never be. Whites can never be victims.
People are attracted to what attracts them, regardless of color.
Let it rest...

I agree, cause even thoughb i'm black i personally do not find black men sexually attractive.
In fact they are a off for much in the same way that women are a turn off sexually for me.
I kind of feel bad about it too, cause there is this black guy who really likes me and he is sooo sweet but I'm just NOT attracted to him and don't think I could be a good provider to him but I don't know how to tell him that.
usually when i just try to tell black guys that I'm just not interested or my personal preference is to not see black men, they want a more in depth explanation.
But i don't have one.
So then they try to convince me that they are different and i feel bad but it still doesn't make me want to see them.
I'm not even attracted to biracial men of black mix.
i saw a biracial guy this sunday and it was probably the most awkward encounter I've had since I've started this business.

I have read all of the posts on this subject and agree and disagree with alot of them.
I personally know a few providers who falsify their race and say that their reason is to get more clientele. I believe this is not a good thing to deny or be ashamed of your race. I used to be the same way........... I am african american and hispanic (my dad is black and my mom is puerto rican and columbian)
I got called a "mutt" growing up, got stupid comments and questions, and my dad's family would even crack jokes. So by the time I was 13, I would not go anywhere with my mom or her family, and I hated going anywhere with my brothers and sisters. Myself and 2 of my siblings are chocolate toned while the others are carmel toned and light skinned. I wouldn't invite anyone to my home nor would I allow them to call my house (because of mom and grandfathers accent) Eventually I stopped claiming to be just black because it was hurting the feelings of some of my family members. And now that I look back I feel really stupid for acting that way because I no longer know spanish (stopped speaking the language when I was 6)and have said some hurtful things to my mom's family.
I do advertise myself as an african-american with hispanic descent on my website. When I advertise I either check "other" or mixed ethnicity" but sometimes that option is not available and that's when I will advertise as an ebony.

One reason guys do not choose ebony providers is because sadly, alot of ebony providers aren't Elite or Classy; very unprofessional. This is not an insult nor is it a lie IT'S REALITY and please keep in mind that I am half black. I have had so many clients tell me during their appointment that they were "surprised" that I did not rob them, didn't rush them, and had a good attitude.
When I lived in Houston I ran a referral service because I travel alot and would have some clients ask me if I knew any other ebony models who could accommodate them since I wasn't avalable. Out of the 10 or 11 black girls that I have sent on calls, I got complaints on each and every single one and had to go to the clients and make up what these girls messed up; as I advertise "Always Ready to Please, Satisfaction Guaranteed" and although it's not me who messed up, I felt that I was responsible because I recommended these girls. And these are girls that I knew personally. I now will never recommend another ebony provider even if I know her, with the exception of a few that I know and they have reviews.
I used to not allow clients to review me for safety reasons but just recently I started allowing it because I want everyone to know that there are some of us that can provide very good services just as well (and sometimes better than) providers of other races

Like many of the Ebony ladies that have posted on this thread, I also have a mixed heritage, and I don't mind disclosing the fact, when asked, by a client (he can clearly see, that there I have other "exotic features", other than my skin color). I just tend to be more comfortable with saying I am African-American, for that is what I consider myself to be, and that is what it says on my birth certificate. I also found, in all walks of life, you are going to find people who are un-educated, and people who are classy. I don't believe that race plays a part in it. Now, I know of many  African-American people, who came from a upper class homes, great education, and I know of some Caucasian people, who didn't have that opportunity. I also know of the reverse, as well.  For someone to miss judge me, by just my skin color alone, they will be highly suprised to fine, a middle-class upbringing, an articulate, highly educated woman, friendly, passionate woman, behind the profile Anyways, just my thoughts again

Mel

First of all, I wasn't aware that my nose size might change or increase as I age... or my eye size? *blink!*  I cannot imagine what nose size has to do with youthfulness or lack thereof.

Second, I think that there are many many stereotypes about this industry and most of them are applied by our society with a heavy hand regardless of race. I have people who are *shocked* all the time at my intelligence and my love for my job... because what they *expect* is an uneducated desperate person, white or black.

I don't know the answer to this, but I don't think it's because "black" is associated with "old" or with "pimped out" any moreso than "white."  I mean look at the girls in Vegas brothels... most of them have pimps and I will venture a guess based on my peeking at brothel websites, most of them are white!

Issues like this one are never easy and I doubt any of us will ever find a *paragraph* that sums it up, but it makes for good discussion. Hopefully I haven't offended anyone too much!

Hugs*
Tamara

Well you know most African-Americans are of mixed decent, according to the latest Scientific American. About 30% of whites have african ancestry. Also race doesn't exist but decent can be important especially where health is concerned.

I know that when I was growing up we were told about our white Great Great Great  Grand Father who freed my Great Great Grand Mother. He gave her part of the estate and tuition to college. This is rare and we were not to tell anybody especially white people because that would make them angry.

I for one will never instruct  someone on his/her ethnic back ground. That's like correct someone on how he pronounces his/her name.

Then you wonder why the poster asked this question!!!