How many guys entered the hobby because there were some things your wife refused to do in bed and it started conflicts? Everything else was great but your desire for these extras were causing a lot of fights and anger. Why divorce if everything else is great? If a provider could quench these desires and you didn't have to fight over these extras anymore, what harm could there be? Is this a matter of self-convincing or does it make sense? Or both? Just curious.

..and the guy was cracking me up saying that his GF is great at everything except she's lacking in the sex part, and so he simply hires sub-contractors to 'do the job'.
Now when people ask me what I do, I think I'll say I'm a sub-contractor...

Sedona, maybe you are right.  However, something doesn't feel right about a marriage without the sex.  It seems more reasonable to have the relationship for the sex and friendship and contract out everything else.  Cleaning people,  restaurants, and child care workers are easier to find than lovers  (Well, maybe not good child care workers).

I agree. The wife & I have an OK sex life, but job stress and schedules screw things up. (ie-work late or too tired ).Some times we are neaver home at the same time.It's not lack of sex, it's just not frequent enough. (my schedule does not help)
An occasional visit to a provider will fill in the gap between the marital relations.

(the rest I'll PM)

Ditto here.

My SO relationship is good after 13 years of marriage and 5 years of dating before that.  Kids, Work, and the daily grind keep us from any regular "bump and grind".

At this point, sex happens once or twice a month whether we need it or not.  Mish, CG, Doggy, DATY, and French are the only items on the menu, and the chef has stopped agreeing to special requests.  Our bedroom and 4 star hotels are the only place it ever happens anymore.  I try to initiate things whenever I can, but there is always some obstacle.  In the past three years, she has initated things once.  I'm sure my flaws must grate also sometimes as I am a workaholic at the office, but basically lazy once I get home.  Dates are rare as it costs $60 for a babysitter for a few hours.  We sneak away once or twice a year for a getaway weekend and things are great during that time as we "get together" three or four times in the weekend, but that is a rare occurrence.

I think if I hit the lottery tomorrow, things would improve dramatically as the Rat Race is primarily responsible for killing our sex drive, but the kids' constant presence doesn't provide a romantic environment either.

So basically, I hobby to balance the scales.  I feed the dark half of my soul every once in a while, AND I'm at peace with my participation, because I believe I SAVING the relationship by addressing its deficiencies elsewhere.  I'm not having an emotional affair with another, only a short term euphoric one night stand that strokes my ego and lets me regain my center for the rest of my life.  

I've always believed that rules are only useful if they maintain or protect happiness.  Breaking the rules in this case allows me to do just that without destroying a nuclear family in the process.  My parents were separated for about a year when I was in 6th grade when my father was in the same situation and sought comfort in another woman's arms in the form of a love affair.  They ultimately reconciled, but it scarred my sister and I at the time.

I like my solution much better.   There are no phone calls in the evening that hang up when she picks up the phone, and no demands on my time, other than whatever time is convenient for me.  And my inner Hugh Hefner is stroked (pardon the pun), as I'm given the illusion that for that short time, I am an attractive, desirable individual to a totally new person (Something that I haven't experienced in the "real world" since the Reagen Era).

And once again, my SO relationship as the same ups and downs that everyone else has, but the relationship is fundamentally strong.  90% of the relationship is good for me.  I do this to address the other 10% and I am happy with the arrangement.

Geez, I just do it for the simple reason that I am a horny dog.

I like that, and nobody would have a clue of what you really do. And you are being honest when you say it.

Aren't we all. I was just explaining that hobbying doesn't = an unhappy marriage.(until I get caught-LOL)

Not exactly sure I have you right, but passion in marriage does fade with time, so sexless marriages are very common and after years of kids and career sacrifices, etc., divorce is neither a moral nor right solution.  Don't get confused by the church.  Morality was around long before institutionalized religion and will be atround long after its demise (never happen, of course, but what a boone for world peace if it did!)  I agree that hobbying solves a lot of home problems and that it ought to be the established norm.  There are those who would abuse it, of course, those who married with no thought as to its meaning of fidelity to family goals, those focused solely on variety and crippled by their own sexual immaturity, but assuming we all get smarter and the meaningless self-gratifying sexual mongrols among us become fewer and fewer, the good would far outweigh the bad.

If serious and married, etc., you don't want to read my 9/23 reply above.

I'm sorry, but passion in a relationship should INCREASE with time.  Frequency may decrease but something should get better.  For Gods sake, we are older and smarter and we learn how to turn each other on with practice.   The reason most of our relationships suck is because we either let them suck or our wife has let them suck (or both).    

In Zen practice, when people drift off or get lost in paying attention to whatever the fuck the "now" is, the Zen Master comes up behind them and hits them with a stick.  Don't make me hit you with a big stick!  

Your marriage sucks (as does mine) and you don't know how to make it better.  If you did, you would be enthuastically fucking your wife and saving yourself a ton of $$$ (as would I).   Additionally, your wife wouldn't be fucking the mailmain, reading romances, masturbating in the afternoon, subliminating in the kids or work, watching daytime TV, ...  We have lost our priorities and our bearings about love and adult relationships.

All (many) of us don't have marriages, we have "arrangements".  Further, we don't have the time / energy / knowledge / courage / ... to fix it.  

but I could be wrong...  My two cents anyway

I have been asking myself lately ... how would I like it if the shoe were on the other foot.  OK ... men like sex, and women really like to be admired - and as a result, they want conversation (where we're really interested in what she has to say), affection etc.  They want to know that the relationship is 100% by seeing us become enthralled with her.  The biggest problem here is that she could really enhance that emotion in us by simply being a horney little slut in the bedroom.  Because she isn't, we seek it elsewhere.  But what if she saught male attention elsewhere?  Would we be OK with that because we are OK with what we do (or are considering doing)?  What if your wife found a young, cute guy to hang out with from time to time ... someone who really found her fascinating and interesting, who gave her 100% of his attention every time he was with her?  Personally?  I Would be OK with that, as long as I didn't know, and as long as it didn't affect her love for me.  But I think such a thing would be destined to ruin her feelings for us ... where spending time with a provider does not cause us to love our wives any less ... or does it?

97% of my clients are married (down from the 100% a bit ago) and they all say they are happily married. All but two (and not everyone discusses their 'home life' either) mentioned that sex is satisfying at home, and even that their wives are more beautiful today than when they married.
This makes me happy. As a confirmed, 'til-death-do-I-part bachelorette, I find it heartwarming to see or hear about happy marriages.
I know many of the ladies will agree with me how delighted we are to be the 'oasis' for you all..
smacking your bottoms on the way out, sending you back home..smiling, of course..

Most have what they consider to be good, long lasting
relationships.  The sex has gotten to be not as exciting.
I think of myself as helping relationships, not hurting
them.  I am not a home wrecker by any means.  I take the
slack off the wife.  I am doing the things that she is
no longer interested in doing, maybe never was.  Now the
husband is no longer resenting the wife for rejecting
his advances or just not being a sexual person in the
first place.  The wife would probably thank me, if she
knew.  Now she can relax and not have to worry about
rejecting his advances or making excuses.  They can
enjoy each other, if not sexually, then in most other
ways.  Its a trade off, I think.  Nothing is ever
perfect, especially a long term relationship.  If the
only thing wrong with it, is sex, I think they are doing
pretty well.

It is very easy to give up once you encounter a serious obstacle to intimacy.  Children, menopause, work schedules, familiarity...all of these things can be the catalyst to accept to change a relationship fundamentally, if effort is not made to keep it from happening.  

Part of the concept of marraige is fidelity, another part is communication, and another is honesty.  Upon considering marraige, these scenarios that theaten intimacy could be discussed, as they are common knowledge in society.  If a man asks his fiance "If you lost interest in having sex with me, or were too busy with things for it, how should we handle it?", he would be opening a proactive dialogue that could save him major hassles down the road.  The response from his fiance would hopefully be "We would talk about it and try to work something out.", but by at least talking about it, you would have already laid the groundwork to be open later on.  If you have these problems, and you talk about it, by opening the door early, you are creating the possibility for alternatives, like using TER as a fill in, if she feels comfortable with it.  If she doesn't, then it is on her to make the effort (along with you) to work something out with you that you both can be happy with, which, as Harry Lime so eloquently stated, may be biggest obstacle to overcoming these scenarios in the first place.

Of course, there is the alternative of just being dishonest and using TER (or whatever) and hiding it.  However, I know from personal experience that dishonesty in your relationship can ruin your life, and is not an option for those who aspire to truly find a higher love.

There is nothing my ATF does that my wife won't do in bed and in fact there are some things my wife does better.  However  my ATF really turns me on and my wife doesn't.  My ATF also does alot of things out of bed that my wife doesn't.  If I were rigorously honest like megapig or singleton and all his aliases, then I would just divorce my wife.  But the truth of the matter is if I can't have my ATF fulltime then I am more than happy with my wife.
So for now until my ATF retires or leaves me, or my wife leaves me I will live with the cards I was dealt.

You're too much! Hope I can get to San Diego some time soon!
Love Ya already!,
444

Take a look at a book "Passionate Marriage" by a David Schnarch.  I HATE self help books, but this one makes some sense to me.

Schnarch's thesis seems to be that problems in relationships always show up in sex and they happen when one person in the relationship begins to "grow / change / become more actualized ..." and the other partner can't or won't deal with the changes that brings.  When one person can grow and accomodate the other person's growth, the relationship becomes more interesting and the sex gets hotter and the relationship gets better.  When that doesn't happen, the couple settles for emotional fusion, boring sex, and a vapid relationship.  

I read it and recognized myself:  I expect many of us married guys in the hobby will find themselves in there too.

BTW, we married hobbyists don't get off easily in the book.  We don't have the stuff to make the fixes we need or get out of the marriage.

Again, I could be wrong.  My two cents more...Harry

I remember a cartoon in The NewYorker Magazine which had the caption "Male Escort".  It showed a woman talking with a man and the man saying "Of course I will listen to you all night."

This in my mind pretty much sums it up.

I totally agree with you HarryLime.  Alot is said here about what the women refuse to do.  But I would like to share a little bit here.  Having been married let's just say more than once, (we'll leave that one alone, lol).  I just want to toss in another scenario.  I have always been very enthusiastic about sex, always willing to give head, when thongs became popular, I got mine right away, etc., etc., etc. I cooked, clipped coupons, kept the house nice, worked out, persued a good career, was involved in my community and volunteered in school.  Worked feverishly to do all of the right things, and still be sexy.  Not ONE man I have ever been with has been faithful.  My last one, and I do mean LAST was so lazy once the "thrill" was gone that if I didn't orchestrate a nice scene, music, candles, incense, smelling good, looking good, blowjob to get him up, then cowgirl (because HE just laid there), I wasn't going to get any.  I went hunting, camping and fishing with him.  When I wanted to go see the Eagles "Hell Freezes Over" concert, he was too tired to go.......I went alone.  Later he confesses he used that opportunity to get a $20.00 blow job, and can't face me anymore.........Geez.  To this day, 9 years later, he cannot articulate what it was I wasn't offering.  But I just have to say that some guys can be very, very selfish, lazy and uncreative as well.  You want her to trim it up.  Well you should too.  Do you have any idea what it is like to try to lick the twins, get a mouthfull of hair and then deliver a great BJ?  Try licking a brilo pad.  Trim it!  My face will be all over it then, SLURPING AWAY!  Go buy her something nice (Like a beautiful corsett and some thigh highs) to wear if she doesn't know where to start because OUR society has force fed her a bunch of stupid notions.  A nice corsett can be very alluring and help a woman who has had children feel prettier if she has a thicker middle because she has bore your children.  Lend a hand perhaps, she might need permission to loosen up.  Your behavior can grant that permission as well.  Your creativity can help her.  I know it takes TWO.  I personally consulted a man recently, took him out to help him buy somehing nice for his wife.  Showed him how to trim and groom himself, told him how to set up a nice room for them and rock her world.  He clearly stated he wanted her to do somethings, he loves her very much, but she did not know how to proceed and would buy "teddies" when he would ask her to get something sexy to wear.  He is reporting that it has made a HUGE difference for them.  So sometimes it's not just them.... my .02

More than half of my special friends are still in love with their wive's and tell me they have a good marriage. In those cases, they aren't looking for a replacement.  They're looking for an enhancement.  It may be sex, it may be more affection, it may be someone new, or the rush of excitement and butterflies, and it may be a counselor/friend who won't judge them.

Forget what society teaches us for a moment.  Is it natural to only desire one person?  I don't think it is.

Some of the things other "special friends" are looking for:
1) affection
2) freedom to explore without being judged
3) wilder sex
4)more romantic sex
5) appreciation (someone to focus on their good qualities)
6) someone to meet their needs w/o the risk of getting hurt or having to alter their current life choices
7) a variety of women to satisfy their cravings more than one woman ever could and w/o the hassles of jealousy, etc.

-- Modified on 9/25/2003 1:08:22 PM

I hired a male escort in Vegas years ago.  My 1st husband's idea.  He wanted me to have sex with a black man.  I really didn't want to, but he insisted.  I was 21, very shy and virginal yadee yadee ya.  This guy shows up.  He is DROP DEAD GORGEOUS!!  I only had the money for the service, I dunno anything about that biz.  He informs me there is supposed to be something for him, a tip.  I tell him he can go if he wants and I'll just lie to my husband.  He decides I'm pretty, so he'll stay awhile.  4 hours later, my husband is still calling up to the room to see if he can come up.  LOL, that guy fucked the hell out of me.  Tried to convince me to take off with him, he'd show me how to make money.  He was awesome.  My 1st husband didn't last much longer..........

Way to go, Jenni!
And if the men have a teachable spirit, we're happy to be your guiding light..

When I first started this hobby, I just wanted to get my rocks off because my wife had begun to lose interest in sex.  What I found in the hobby was a wonderful world of women who not only would give me sex but would give me great sex. I found myself improving my body and my sexual techniques so that I could be a better lover and these providers were such great teachers.  Now my wife is more attracted to me than ever, but she remains as she was in the sense that she has let her body go and has very limited sexual desires and technique.  My ATF does things to my body and mind that are fantastic.  But it is a fantasy relationship that simply augments my real world.  Would I like a marriage that fulfilled everything including sexuality?  Of course, but I don't see how to get my wife to shave her pussy, wear lingerie and 6 inch heels, suck me like a vacuum cleaner, take it in the ass and do it whenever I want.  I have tried to entice her into these things, but she just won't go for it no matter what I try including hiring housekeepers, buying presents, sending the kids away and going on vacations.  At this point, the cost of the providers are way cheaper than trying to get my spouse to step up to the plate.  It sure is easier....

Hence my point.  Women who are in a committed relationship don't seem to do very well (in terms of staying committed to their husbands) when they get outside attention from another man.  While men can stay very much in love with their wives, even if they stray a little.