is this a possibility? The reason I ask is that after I retired a few months ago, it was amazing how many gents just fell away from me...in the sense they were not interested in talking anymore.

There seems to be some much talk about whether providers are honest and "real" people, and I have found that some of the gents that I really cared for have pretty much given me the shaft in the friend department. Let me say for the record, that I am not asking for anything nor would I. But there are those who became a big part of my life over the last 3 years as regulars, I got to know them and their families and jobs vicariously thru them. I was there for them at any time to chat and just catch up. We listened to each other and gave advice. I do not call out of a clear blue sky..never did in the biz either. But Is it possible to continue to be a friend to someone once you quit paying for their services?

I know there are those that say this is impossible in any way shape or form, but for the guys who find themselves really connecting with a lady on a higher level, if she retired would you continue to care about her and what happens? And if given the opportunity would you pursue your friendship?

This is just one of those random thoughts that crossed my mind as I head out the door to my new job. Hope you all had a great weekend...

xoxoxo
Lass

-- Modified on 8/3/2003 10:53:30 PM

for a badly needed reality check with a thoughtful (topical?) "quality post"

alas, it's late and my feeble mind has turned to mush what with all this movie hysteria, so i shan't say anything ...

till tomorrow (at least)  

Some of these ladies are very interesting and fun.

Do the guys know for a fact that you want to keep contact? They may think that you want out of the business completely.

someone obsessed with them.

In addition, sometimes, they don't want to be reminded of the past, so slowly they drifted away.

Although I'm not retired so I can't say for sure, but I do have a few really good friends I used to see.  Due to certain problems in their lives (money,family,distance) I haven't seen them in some time, but they are great for advice and someone to talk to.  

XOXO Charis

My guess would be, though, that it would be difficult if either party was married or in a serious relationship, given the nature of the acquaintance.  Otherwise, it would take an understandsing and secure partner, or lying... which usually dooms any relationship.

However, like all relationships, what would determine whether this could happen is honesty and sincerity, two traits that are rarer than most would think.  If the two parties involved are honest about the boundaries of the friendship and sincere about being friends, there is conceptually no reason why it couldn't work.  All we are talking about here, when it comes down to it, is two human beings.  If there is a mutual need/desire for friendship and a willingness to
accept the terms, why not?

Idealistic?  Perhaps...but it is better than being jaded.

Ive have been burned by providers who told me they were my "friend" lol...however...i hope to god that my atf is really my true "friend"...anyhoo.....i totally believe she is,
Sham

I would certainly hope so.  
I think for guys who have a lot of women friends who they don't have sex  with, it is probably easier.  I agree with the people above who think your old friends may be giving you a little space because they think that is something you want.

I hope no one wanted to use "when Harry met Sally" that one of Billy Crystal's themes that men couldn't be friends with a woman without taking her to bed.  I also hope that isn't so in you case.  You seem like a really thoughtful interesting person on your posts.

One of the things friends do is call out of the clear blue sky.  That may be what you are going to have to do if you want some of these relationships to continue.  You could drop them a post if not call to see how they are doing.  One way or another you will find out what's going on.

I talk to or E-mail my ATF more than I ever actually see her as well as a few other providers and management people.  I would hope those relationships would continue once they retire if we still had the same common interests other than the obvious one.
But I must admit, I always thought that that would be their call, not mine.
Lots more to say but I got to go to work.

I always like to think that as we change and grow that we meet new people, make new friends but we don't discard the old ones, we just learn to relate to them differently.

Good luck.

There are probably some guys out there who cannot segregate the sex from the other components of a relationship.  

And there are some that probably believe that their "friendship" with you was based on an hourly rate.  

Then there are some that simply feel abandoned by a provider that "retires".  

Some have probably elected not to interfere in your new "life", for whatever reason.

And then there are some that always had the same interest in your life that they know you had in their's.  And it matters not that you aren't performing fellatio, or anything else physical with them.  And they are comfortable enough to feel good that you found happiness.

I am so glad to be in that last group.  And to still have you, Lass, as a friend.

-- Modified on 8/4/2003 11:25:59 AM

It is certainly my desire that the friendship that has developed between myself and my ATF will continue when she retires.  Over the past year, I feel that we have developed a bond between us.  We chat, email, and talk quite frequently; sometimes about nothing - sometimes about everything.  

Once the fun is done behind closed doors, for a friendship to blossom and continue, the parties must have some common interests and caring for the other person.  If these pieces are not in place, the "friendship" is more of an "acquaintance" relationship and it is destined to disolve.  This is true of many of the friendships that we have all made over the years.  Think back of all the friends that have come in and out of your life, from grade school, high school, college, and work.  I have lost contact with many of these friends, not because something casued a split in our friendship, but because our interests and life decisions have led us down different paths.  Do I miss some of these friends??  Sure, but I also see this as part of life and just look forward to new friends that I will meet.

Lass, to answer your questions:
#1 - If she retired would you continue to care about her and what happens? - Yes!!  
#2 - If given the opportunity would you pursue your friendship? - Yes!!
On the other hand, I also understand that she has a life outside of the hobby.  If she wished to discontinue contact after retiring, I would honor that request; but I'd miss this mutual exchange of ideas, opinions, and thoughts.

Ken


-- Modified on 8/4/2003 5:13:07 AM

-- Modified on 8/4/2003 5:14:38 AM

Absolutely.  If it's a real friendship, then, like any other, circumstances shouldn't matter.  I find that to the extent friendship develops, it tends to be deeper than typical friendships, perhaps because of the intimacy between provider and hobbyist that's an integral part of the relationship.  

Here's an example: In 1987 I met a 24 year old provider at a brothel.  We hit it off and I became a regular for about 6 months.  Then she left town for a few years; finally she returned.  She doesn't work regularly, but from time to time she'll "visit" and we'll see each other -- she's now a mature woman with a daughter and husband.  We've "grown up" together.  I consider her to be one of the people who knows me best.


There's no reason why, upon leaving the biz, a friendship couldn't continue.

Acquaintances you will have many of in your life time, but friends are something very rare indeed.  The community does discuss this a great deal, but the focus has mostly been the motivations and reasonings on the side of the lady, but there is the other side of the coin too.  

Given your retirement, some may think that you want to put this part of your life behind you.  I would make the first initial contact with these gents to let them know in no uncertain terms that although you have retired you would like to remain friends.

Don't be surprised if they do not maintain contact though.  For many a gent it is the taboo nature of this endeavor that draws gents to us and once the taboo is lifted, the interest in any manner often dissapears also.  Gents do have as many ideosyncrosies as the ladies do and motivations may not be clear even to them.  Thank your lucky stars if one of those gents does maintain a friendship with you.  You will have found a rare gem in this world...a true friend.

Lauren

I think that traditional hobbiest/provider relationships do no lend themselves to friendships outside the confinds of the business.  You can't have roots and wings.  When a woman or man leaves this alterate reality it makes it difficult to have anything in common with people who associate with it.

That being said, I think all rules are made to be broken.  We are all people.  Some people form bonds.  When true friendships are formed in such unlikely places it makes them all the more special.

I don't think that one can leave and still hang around all the time.  It isn't healthy and sometimes people need to just get on with their lives.  Holding onto a couple of cherished relationships is completely healthy and reasonable.

If you have friends that have given you the shaft since you ... um .. er .. ah ... stopped letting them give you the shaft,  they weren't much in the friend department in the first place, were they?   Men who like women like women in a large degree because of sex (note to everyone reading:  not YOU!  you're genuine in your fondness for women .. not me either .. but yanno ... THE REST OF 'EM) so it's perhaps not unreasonable to think that as sex becomes less and less part of the picture the attraction to be with them fades a little, too.

That's probably typical of a lot of people though ... in this industry or any other.   We've all had 'really good friends' when we lived or worked somewhere... then we moved on (promising to stay in touch) and then find that we drift away.   It probably has more to do with not having AS MUCH in common other than the subject that held us together in the first place.

Most people can consider themselves VERY lucky if, in general, 20% of their friends are really their friends - most of the rest are really "good aquaintences" that we just CALL friends.

Cherish the few and ignore the rest.

Pig



-- Modified on 8/4/2003 8:46:13 AM

I think the answer is absolutely yes. But I agree with the other posts to the effect that many of your guys may be sensitive about intruding into your life now that you are retired. I would definitely go for it and reach out to them.

Real friends, who really remain friends after they became separated by moves to new jobs or moves to new places, are rare in my experience. I find it easier to be friends with women than men, and if I were to find a real woman friend with whom I could really communicate, there is no way her retiring from the business would get in the way of my wanting to continue that friendship. The value would still be there, regardless.

A simple answer:NO.

Of course such friendships are possilbe!  And they're based on  the same reasons our other friendships are.  But like all those friendships, a mutual respect for the other person is paramount.  That's a hurdle to overcome.  

Some guys simply can't respect a provider, at least not completely..& some providers are only looking at clients as a cash cow.  Along with that knowledge comes a reluctance to trust the other party..the guy wondering if she's really only after his money in spite of how she acts or what she says, & the gal concerned if he's able to separate friendship from infatuation & become obsessed.  Understandably both parties have their guard up a little...only a fool wouldn't.  So it can take time & a lot of interaction on a more personal level for those walls to be lowered.  

The main thing is that an individual has within themselves the ability to see the other as a real person for who they are...not what they do or what they can do for us.

As to the question you posed about attempting to maintain the friendship in the event of retirement---Yes, I most definitely would & hopefully the feeling would be mutual.

I have some very good friendships with providers and I'm sure they will continue should the provider and/or providers retire.  I see some as friends outside the scope of the business now.  So I don't see why this would change.  My personal feeling is to be a friend first and a hobbiest second.  When we do things outside the scope of the business such as a movie, theater, lunch or dinner we do it as friends.  I do not have a problem with losing them as provider.  However, I would never want to lose them as a friend.

Well I can't speak for everyone because everyone is different, but seperating when someone is being nice to you because you are generously rewarding them for their time, or because you are a genuinely nice person, Some hobbiests are in this for their time and their happiness alone, and being nice out of respect and courtesy. Few really feel as areal friend would even if they are wonderful customers. I know from my experience with a provider. Who I knew long before I knew she was a provider. But exactly who shall remain a secret between me and her. Its easy to confuse lust and the feelings during an encounter for true feelings, and as such few would really stick their necks out at 3am in an emergency. Same as whould they do the same if you needed something at 3am.

But back to your original question, yest its possible, but I can say this because I have known this wonderful lady far beyond the hobby.

I have connected with a few ladies over time that I regularly communicate with even though they are across the country and I don't see them often.  I have fond memories of our time together and even if they retired, I would like to continue our "friendship" if they are interested.  I find that I connect easier with women than men becuase I'm not the typical guy who is, say into sports scores or cars, etc.  Women just seem more interesting, sex aside.  Of course, with sex thrown into the mix, there's no comparison.  LOL.

I don't see any reason why you should not stay friends. As long as you keep the same relationship, what is the problem?) I have a on going friendship with two at the moment and certainly hope it continues when they retire I realize it might not go on forever but I do think you should keep in touch for awhile. On the other hand, I do tend to view this hobby a little different than the average hobbyist.

I have no problem with the guys who call once in awile to say hi, in fact I enjoy it. It's the guys who call everyday, two and three times a day. Make sure you express to the lady that it is okay for her to call you, or give her times when it's safe to.

I think alot of us get caught up in not wanting to get you guys in trouble, that were extra cautious.

XOXO Charis

I would hope that it is possible to have a friendship.
I at present am a very close friend of a provider and it is
her hope and mine that somehow we should work at keeping the
friendship going because we both have many interesting and
supportive conversations.

I've lurked here on and off for a while, and with this great topic, I have decided to post.  I first want to respond to your initial message, CelticLass, before I read any of the other replies.

I've seen dozens of providers over the past 23 years or so, and with many of them, I was a regular.  And in a very small number of cases, I have indeed been able to establish a friendship with the woman after the business arrangement ended.

But most of the time, the personal relationship ended when I stopped being her client.

I believe that your situation and mine are opposite sides of the same coin, and after all these years, I think I have gained some understanding that applies both ways.

One of the more obvious resaons for this has to do with the fact that some people are just plain insincere.  Women will pretend to be more interested in their clients' lives than they really are, in the interest of making and keeping the man happy so he'll keep coming back.  I know this from first-hand experience, and I have seen it happen in many more cases than it doesn't.

And based on what many women in the business have told me, we men can be equally insincere.  Many men will pretend to be more interested in the woman than they really are in hopes of getting a better deal.  Others are not so mercenary, but still exaggerate their personal interest in the woman in the hopes that this will help the experience be more GFE-like for them, or that simply things will go more smoothly during the sessions.

Sadly, this kind of insincerity during the course of an ongoing arrangement can be very hurtful when the time comes to end things, and if one of the parties was taking the affections more seriously than they really were.

But in many cases, there _is_ a genuine, sincere, personal connection between both people, and yet, there still are factors that work against a friendship after the business ends.

One aspect of this is the fact that it _is_ a business arrangement.  There is a specific "commodity" that is being traded, and both parties have come together to enter into that specific exchange.  And even when a personal connection develops between the provider and the client, this connection does not need to be very deep in order for the sexual-monetary transaction to take place in a mutually fulfilling manner.  Therefore, once there is no longer any sex, the "core" of the interpersonal connection is gone, and they find that they don't have much in common, after all.

And also, don't forget how hard it is to be "just friends" after a sexual relationship comes to an end in the civilian realm.  Once an ongoing sexual bond has been established, it's often very difficult to be with the person when sex is no longer an option.  This applies equally well to business relationships (expecially the ongoing ones).

And another reason why friendships don't happen easily has to do with one of the common aspects of a provider-client relationship:  it's compartmentalized.  The world that is created by the man and woman is, for the most part, a fantasy world.  It's a place to be where the normal, everyday rules of life don't apply.  There's no boss, no stress, no family hassles, no concern for the man as to whether his partner is in the mood, and there is a high degree of focused pleasure.  Even with the most down-to-earth, reality-based people, the "reality" within the session is NOT the real world.

Therefore, it's hard to bring the relationship back into the world of everyday life after the fantasy part ends.  I'm not saying that it's impossible, because it most certainly can be done (as I can attest to from personal experience).  However, I find that it usually takes two mature, aware, committed people to make that happen.  Sadly, many people just are not that mature or self-aware, or just aren't into putting effort into their friendships (even if it's not all that hard to do).  

And because it takes a certain amount of work, both parties have to _want_ to make it happen, and that takes a commitment.

And how many people these days are really willing to make commitments?

I don't mean to paint a bleak picture.  I mentioned that I have been able to build a friendship with a small number of my ex-providers.  These friendships are sources of joy in my life, and one of them is an overwhelmingly marvelous treasure.  And these few friendships more than make up for the many that didn't happen.

And one last point:  in the civilian world, friendships don't occur very readily.  Most of us only have a small number of "everyday" friends, and a tiny number of true, meaningful friendships.  Why should it be any different between escorts
and clients?

What a surprise! ... escorts and clients are just like real people.

So if you want some free advice, CelticLass, I would say to hang in there, but be realistic.  Probably more men than not will be content to fade out of your life.  But the few that want to stay connected with you will more than make up for it.

the last phone number you gave me does not work or is out of service .. or you don't want to hear from me :^((  (say it isn't so Lass)lol

Harry Burns: What I'm saying is - and this is not a come-on in any way, shape or form - is that men and women can't be friends because the sex part always gets in the way.
Sally Albright: That's not true. I have a number of men friends and there is no sex involved.
Harry Burns: No you don't.
Sally Albright: Yes I do.
Harry Burns: No you don't.
Sally Albright: Yes I do.
Harry Burns: You only think you do.
Sally Albright: You say I'm having sex with these men without my knowledge?
Harry Burns: No, what I'm saying is they all WANT to have sex with you.
Sally: They do not!
Harry: Do to.
Sally: They do not.
Harry: Do to.
Sally: How do you know?
Harry: Because no man can be friends with a woman that he finds attractive. He always wants to have sex with her.
Sally: So, you're saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds unattractive?
Harry: No. You pretty much want to nail 'em too.
Sally: What if THEY don't want to have sex with YOU?
Harry: Doesn't matter because the sex thing is already out there so the friendship is ultimately doomed and that is the end of the story.
Sally: Well, I guess we're not going to be friends then.
Harry: I guess not.
Sally: That's too bad. You were the only person I knew in New York.

Sure, it's possible.  I'm still friends with my (former) ATF, and one of the new girls I'm seeing is fast becoming a friend (and JUST a friend.  I don't need THAT other s**t again).  There are also at least a couple of providers I've only met through TER PM's and email who have shown themselves to be friends as well.

I don't know.  Maybe your former clients/friends were not what you thought they were.  Even "civilian" friends drift away sometimes.  Or maybe, as some here have said, they may feel they are part of your former life and don't want to intrude on your new life.  If you're allowed by your former protocol to call them, why not do so and say hello?  You can then make sure they know they can contact you and that you would welcome that.  There's always email too, for the computer-literate among them.

I think in many cases with relationships between adult men and women sex is the glue that binds.  If sex is good, and in your case with clients sex was the begining of the relationship, it is natural to build on that with other things and a sort of friendship develops.  But when the sex that started ( and in your case was the reason for the relationship from the begining)  is taken away it may be very hard for a man to adjust to a friendship without the sex.

Now if you have been seeing someone for lunch or drinks or diner and no sex has been involved for some time than that is a true nonsexual friendship, and your retirement should be of no concern.  But if that is not the case than taking the glue (sex) out of the relationship can be the shits.  Especially if for these regulars the sex was good.  And if they were regulars for any period of time than the sex was probably great.  That is real hard on a guy, in more ways than one.

that the desire for sex would always get in the way.  The person who wants to have sex just has to keep a lid on it.  I have been friends with many women who I'd like to have sex with.

There is a woman I have met that I have become a regular with and we are becoming friends.  We talk about her family, SO, job search (outside the profession) and my life.  

She calls, as I do, just to talk.  Could a SO relationship come from it.  No.  She is too young (21) for me (I'm 35) and has a SO.  She is a very nice and sweet person and I honestly like speaking with her.  In fact, one night she came over and we watched a movie with popcorn.  Nothing else.  Works for me.