Do you think a hobbyist should mention to a provider what his race, creed, religion, etc is or not?

If any of the above is going to be a problem for the provider, shouldn't she just mention it on her website and be upfront about it?

I routinely don't mention my race, creed or religion but it has been mentioned to me that most providers would want that info.

What do you think?

Providers can not be upfront about race (or creed, religion, etc) because they get labeled as "racist".

The fact that providers are human beings with preconceived notions about such things never enters into the hobbyists mind. A hobbyist can discreetly prefer blondes, or caucasians, etc. He has seen our photos and can "pass" on any girl that doesnt strike his fancy. The girl will never know she was not chosen (or why for that matter). On the other hand if he calls her and he is not her cup of tea, she then "rejects" him (via email, in person, whatever) and not only does he know he's been rejected by he knows why.

A provider just cant risk being "labeled" as a racist. Whether we like it or not a provider has the right to choose who she wants to spend her time with. This industry is no different than our own society. We are allowed...no, we are given the RIGHT to choose to do pretty much whatever the hell we want in our society...but choose to exclude a certain race, creed or religion openly in this business is career suicide.

p.

For me I consider it being polite to give a description of myself to the provider that I'm going to make an appointment with so that she can descide if she would be willing to see me.   I make full use of this site by asking other folks either by email or in the chat room about providers who I want to have a session with so that I'm not surprised by anything different from her ad or her reviews.  So I have this site to work for me and all the provider has is another providers information about me and thats if she asks for a reference.  I never heard about the other requests that you mentioned though like religion.
I believe that if a provider puts down certain requirements on people who she is willing to see is bad for her business.  Others like myself would possibly consider the provider as being a racist even though its her right who she wants to see and is my right as well.  Everyone has a preference but it could be taken the wrong way at times.  Like they say, always make a good first impression.

i saw this "race" thing pop-up as a sub-thread of its own below (on the "secret" thread of MLAM). but eventually it seemed to go silent. i don't think any liberal and open forum such as TER can discuss all things "Americana" without touching on the issue of "race" -- something i'm sure most people rather not talk about.

though i have a lot to say on this topic, i'll just share this one anectode which to me speaks volumes.

a while back a businessman asked on a local board for some advice on reputable agencies he could use during his visit. i replied to him and gave him a few pointers. based on his TER name, i even ventured a guess that he was black (excuse me: "African-American") and even warned him how the proprietress of this one agency was a racist bitch that would most likely screen him out if given half the chance. he replied back, thanking me profusely and asked me how i myself fared in this environment. when i told him that i wasn't black, he seemed genuinely shocked! i don't know why, but he must've thought why would a white guy go out of his way to help out a brother. i dunno. but i have to admit it really got under my skin. that not only must he face so much prejudice in this "industry" but that it would be so ingrained that he should be "shocked" if a non-brother hobbyist would actually look out for him!

sad, but true i guess.

Well, I for one always try to describe myself and sometimes send a picture. I think it's only fair if I know what she looks like that she not be disappointed when the doors opens, and my big dumbass is standing there.

I normally give a breif description of myself. I had 1 fabulous woman ask me for a pic. If she were a lesser known person, I would have been skeptical and refused, possibly backed out even.

Religion? Hell NO!!!! I'm not going to a sacrificial alter, I'm going for personal gratification and stress management. I can see it now.

Hey there beautiful, Jaejae here. I'm a ruggedly handsome bear of a man. _Insert age, height, body type here_.

I'm a practicing Pagan and my political beliefs lean heavily towards whatever is popular at the moment. I like Chocolate ice cream with alfalfa sprouts, my favorite artist is Pan etc.etc. etc.

By a few clients if it was ok that they are black, I always comment back with that’s fine, is it ok that I'm white??

I really think that what happened many years ago, should have nothing to do with the way I think and see things today.

It's the personality that I look for not the color of your skin. Beside what difference does it make when you are enjoying each other's company, and sharing special times?

Yes you should.  It's just like bait and switch.  It's a lie by ommission. You have your preferences and so do the ladies.

I have on occasion given a description of myself in terms of height, weight, age, ethnic background, preferences, turn-offs, etc. in my initial contact email to make sure that they are also interested in seeing me.  Just as the guys have the ability to see and choose who they wish to see, I feel it is nice (although not a necessity) to allow the provider to choose to see me as well.  I think it makes for a much more enjoyable time if you know that the provider has also made that choice.  Yes, I know it's all about the money, but it's also YMMV.  Why not choose to see someone who chooses to see you... I bet the odds are better that the session will be much more enjoyable.

Personal information like my SS#, DL#, home address, etc. are never given out.  I will be willing to show my DL and business card when I meet her, but not allow the information to be written down.  If a provider chooses not to see me because of it, then I move on.  However, this has never been a problem for me.  No politics or religon are generally discussed up front.

This business is radically different from others, where racism of this sort is abhorent.  This hobby (or business, whichever side of the fence you're on)is highly personal.  If a white female civilian elects not to date Asian or African-American men, there is no issue.  Her personal preference is acceptable.  The same holds true for civilian men.  Or any other person of any other race.  And we as hobbyists have that same choice.  So why shouldn't providers have that choice as well?

I have seen a number of provider sites where the provider specifically states that she will not entertain African-American men.  One of those sites, interestingly, was the site of an African - American woman!  There is also one site (a white gal in NJ, whose name escapes me for now) that states that she sees ONLY men of color.  

These ladies perform the most intimate acts on us, and certainly they're within their rights to chose with whom they will perform these acts.

Just my .02

F.

Well, I would DEFINATELY not tell the provider my creed, if in fact my creed was that  A) I was a jerk  B) A tightwad that didn't intend to pay  C) A cop.

Those would all be deal killers.   Beyond THAT .... if she's a bigot, I think she has the obligation to say so on her web site or at least on the phone when she books the appointment.

Keep this in mind, as I don't think you Gents actually believe this:

Nothing is said in a reference at all about the client. It goes like this:

1) Have you seen ____?
2) Would you see him again?

And you get 2 yes or no's and that's IT!

Only when there have been some fishy discrepancies, have I asked for a physical description to be sure I could identify him upon sight, and here's what I received:

white, apprx 54 years, sparse grey hair, portly

Otherwise, that's all that gets said about you all! Certainly that's been my experience!

Gotta go. Late!

-- Modified on 7/9/2003 8:08:06 PM

Curious as to why you think that is the case.  There's a provider here in LA who posts on her site that she doesn't see African American men (or maybe it says she only sees caucasions, can't remember at the moment) and she is doing famously well.  Personally, I think all providers should do this if they don't wish to see clients of certain ethnicities and save everybody's time.

Yes, I certainly have the right to refuse to see anyone for any reason, but it is definitely bad for business to be known as a girl who won't see certain ethnic groups, at least in my city.

I prefer to be open-minded AND financially successful.

Sometimes you also have to deal with certain clients who tell you: "All the ladies I deal with NEVER see black men. I assume that's the same for you?" (This has occurred on several occasions.)

I bite my tongue, and simply brush it off by saying something trivial and ambiguous like, "Oh, don't worry about me--I only see the nicest guys in town."



-- Modified on 7/9/2003 2:56:01 PM

exceptions though.

I'm white, and I remember years ago I called an advertisment in the local escort newspaper.

The girl answered and I asked if I could make an appointment. The provider (or at least the girl on the phone)agreed but asked me just as we were about to hang up in a very concerned tone if I was white?

I told her I was and hung up. I briefly considered that last exchange and almost didn't go. Later I wished I hadn't because she ended up giving me another, and thankfully the last dose of the clap.

"prejudice" means to "pre-judge"  

A provider who will not see Blacks (or African-Americans if you insist) may just pre-judge that their schlongs are simply too big or that they are poor tippers. Just as another provider who doesn't see younger men (18-25yo) may pre-judge them to be too inexperienced and perhaps too rough (not "gentlemenly"). It can be mostly a matter of personal taste but as with most things in this hobby it is often affected by the ever-present double-standard: if a hobbyist does it (say for example prefering European blondes to black women) it's ok, but if a provider does it she is likely to be labeled as being a racial bigot.

We all have prejudices installed by our parents and society. Sometimes it is not a bad idea to "pre-judge" certain people and situations. As long as there is an opportunity to judge, it's usually ok. It is when the judgement is altogether replaced by outright bigotry that we have full-blown Racism on our hands.

P.I.

I am an "Equal Opportunity Lover". I love all types of men Shoot, if a martian came down to earth today, I would admit to being the first woman to try "Martian Love" lol  What we all should not do is get mad at those, who turn us down, for they have their preferences, and it's their right to feel the way they do, just as it's our rights to be the same way. Everyone is different and have different needs. In my case, my need is a sexual fulfillment that must be met, so as long as he has a penis, and can use it, meowzaaaaa

Mel

What if you're of mixed race, how should your answer? Of course American tradition is any amount of Black makes the person solely Black. But factuality that's nonsense. Would a provider that didn't accept Blacks, accept a Black man that looked completed White? Would she accept an olive skinned Sicilian? You know Hitler gave people who were only 1/4 Jewish a pass on death camp. Maybe a provider who refuses Blacks could enlighten us on this policy. I know for a fact that the "Big Dick gene" is on the Y chromosome (only passed by mother) so if your mother is White and your father is Black you won't have that problem. The "cheap tip" problem is cultural rather than genetic. Brothers who like old school R&B tend to be better tippers.

But you already have had an alien LOL!!!

"Alien Love Schlong"

I always give a certain thumbnail description of myself, usually limiting it to age, height, weight..but I will mention my ethnic background as well.  I just figure it's better to get the things that would become immeditately obvious out of the way from the start to save time & avoid a possible later disappointment.  I certainly don't want to see any gal who's uncomfortable in any way seeing me.  I've done this with every lady I've seen, regardless of whether she's made a statement about any of her preferences in her advertising or not...many gals won't.  I usually hear back from them, but not always..which is fine--I simply view that as she's not interested & move on without even bothering to ask why..I see no point in that.  

But as this thread has contained a couple of responses with references to race, I'll add a comment or two in that regard.  I've been with gals of just about every conceivable ethnic background & many have told me that they won't see clients of a particular ethnic background.  It's sometimes blacks, but other times it's Asian, Latino, or MiddleEastern.  About as often as not, their 'won't see' clients are those of the same ethnicity as they are.  And frequently those same gals, if they talk about someday getting married, would most likely marry a guy who was of the same background as they...but one they wouldn't have seen as a client.  I don't pretend to know the reason(s) for this..it's merely something I've observed from my experience.  But it is one reason (not the only one) I hestitate to toss out phrases like 'bigot' or 'racist' & think of preferences instead.  How could I say a gal would wouldn't see a _____ is a racist when that's precisely the kind of guy she's most likely marry?    





 

for a  goof...

Provider:BTW, What's your name?

Monsieur Tonto Leroy Goldstein

A man walks onto an airplane and takes his seat. He looks up and notices the most beautiful woman he has ever seen boarding the plane. He is nervous, and soon realizes that she is walking down the aisle toward him. When she takes the seat right next to him, he is anxious to begin a conversation. He asks, "Where are you flying to today?"

She responds, "To the Annual Nymphomaniac Convention in Chicago." His mind reeling, he asks, "And what do you do at this meeting?"

"Well," she says, "We try to dissolve some of the popular myths about sexuality."

"And what myths are those?" he continues, choking back his excitement.

She explains, "Well, one popular myth is that African American men are the most well endowed, when in fact, it is the Native American man who owns this trait. Also, it is widely believed that the Frenchman is the best lover, when actually it is men of Jewish decent who make the best lovers." "but then there was a time I met this French black dude....Ahhhh...it was a grand ole time"

"Very interesting..." the man responds.

Suddenly, the woman becomes very embarrassed and blushes. "I'm sorry," she says, "I just feel so awkward discussing this with you when I don't even know you! What is your name?"

The man extends his hand and replies, "Monsieur Tonto........Tonto Leroy Goldstein."

Cheers!









-- Modified on 7/9/2003 6:55:46 PM

I am not sure if you are talking about the same provider as I am -- But one of LA's top providers says on her web site that she is "generally attracted to men that are Asian, white or Hispanic." She does not specifically exclude any race and I guess she is free to make exceptions. Being Asian, I am one of this provider's racial preferences. And you are right, this provider has more business than she can handle.

I agree with you. I would like to see more providers list racial preferences, if they have any, on their web sites. I was turned down at the door (at an incall hotel) by a well known touring provider who only sees Caucasians. I have no hard feelings against her but if she had listed her preferences on her web site or if she screened better (To most people, my last name is clearly Asian.), my time would not have been wasted.

"Yes you should.  It's just like bait and switch.  It's a lie by ommission."

No, it isn't. As I have mentioned before on this topic, I don't consider my race to be a noteworthy aspect of my persona. OTHER people might...that is there problem...but if you were to ask me to describe myself, unless you asked specifically about my physical appearance, it would never occur to me to mention my race.

"Bait and Switch" is the term we have given for escorts who represent themselves as one thing, but turn out to be another. For you to say it is like "bait and switch" implies that I am "representing" myself as "white" every time I fail to mention to someone I am "black". Now, only you know if you feel this way out of ignorance, stupidity or prejudice, but I can't imagine that an intelligent, unprejudiced person would agree with you.

"Its a lie by omission" implies that I should always go around assuming that my race is the most important thing anyone wants to know about me, and thus I should share that information with them. Sorta like, well, if I had AIDS for example. I should fairly assume that a person might not want to sleep with me if I had AIDS, so I should share that information with a person so they can make an informed decision.

Well, sorry, I do prefer to assume that people AREN'T racist, and don't make decisions based on race. So, I don't make it a point to share what my race is in situations where it isn't relevant. And as a very firm rule, I don't consider it relevant when I am doing business with people. And that is all the hobby is...business.

To answer Othodox's question, the reason women don't share the information is exactly what some posters shared...because they don't want to be seen as racist. And as we learned in my back and forth debate with NaugtyAli, the LA provider alluded to above who appears to be willing to see all men, of all shapes sizes and colors so long as they are NOT African American, apparently "racist" is an unpleasant title. Not so unpleasant that people will cease their behavior mind you, just unpleasant enough that they don't want it to hurt business.

I wil try to repost my thoughts as previosuly shared on this topic to this thread, but in case I am not successful, they are this: When you make a decision based on race, you are a racist. Not liking the label doesn't mean you haven't lived up to it. When a provider decides to not see ANYONE of ANY RACE simply because they are members of a certain race, THEY ARE A RACIST. And I just as well not spend my money on them.

What is heartbreaking however is how many other guys just don't care...so long as THEY can get THEIRS....

-- Modified on 7/9/2003 6:55:20 PM

-- Modified on 7/9/2003 8:20:36 PM

If they ask me, I'll tell them.  If they don't, I won't.

most of the guys who claim it's not such a big deal, a girl has her rights, maybe she just isn't physically attracted to _____s anyway and so on, have most likely never experienced discrimination first hand. if they had, they would be shouting it from the roof tops -- i mean how DARE somebody treat a white guy like that, right?  

i bet even the Asian guy in this thread who was turned away at an incall and wasn't bothered too much by it, would care VERY MUCH if everywhere he went that was the treatment he got!

let's face it, those of us who are not discriminated against (i guess i'm "lucky" to be one of them) don't know diddly squat about what others experience and feel ... and that's coming from someone who knows about discrimination of another kind.

...and I had decided that if you didn't, I wouldn't bother starting up more drama, but since you did...

"A Spectator" was nice enough once to capture most of my thoughts on the topic in one nice, convenient place...


http://theeroticreview.com/MsgBoard/ViewMsgBody.asp?BoardID=12&SortBy=DateCreated%20desc&Search=MyLifeAsMe&SearchType=1&Author=A%20Spectator&DayFrom=600&DayTo=0&Submit=Submit&Messageid=34945

There may be some providers who really mean it, but in other cases it's pure BS.  Maybe it's all talk to make themselves look better, or maybe it's more of a "prefer not to, but will anyway" list.

My former ATF often said she would never take a black client, but over time it slipped out that she did.  Green is often the over-riding color.

often broke through the muddle and got right to the point.

I am honored to be of service.

forget the philosophical ramblings!

the practical point is,,,,why would i want to spend $$$ on a gal who might not like me because of my race, and end up giving me the sh*tiest time for my mispent money!!???

Ok I will agree that when a provider decides not to see someone simply because they are member of a certain race they are a racist.  Simply put discrimination or prejudice against anyone solely based upon the color of their skin is racism.

Lets talk about the other forms of discrimination that providers practice.

Some providers only want to see men over the age of 30 or 35 and actually advertise that way.  I assume the presumption is that younger men may be immature, think they are god's gift to women and try to demonstrate their prowess by pounding away for hours like an automatic dildo.  Some providers only want to see men under the age of 30 or 35 and advertise that way.  Presumably they feel that men over 35 can't perform as an automatic dildo for hours and may keel over after a session from a heart attack.  We could call this age discrimination which in many situations is just as illegal as racial discrimination.

Some providers advertise that they only want to see young fit men.  In fact one provider complained on a discussion board about men not telling her they were fat.  Presumably they are repulsed by the sight of a naked fat man or feel he will be a lousy lay.  Maybe they would like Ron Jeremy if they met him lol.  We can call this weight discrimination.

Some providers don't want to see middle eastern men of the Moslem faith.  Maybe they feel that since in many of the moslem middle eastern countries women are treated like third class citizens that these men would be prone to that behavior.  We can call this religous and or ethnic discrimination.

I am sure I could come up with some other examples but it is late and this post is too long already.

Some women readily admit to these other prejudices.  Probably because even though it is the same type of process the terms age discrimination, religous discrimination, etc. do not carry the same ugly stigma associated with the word racist in this country.  In many people's eyes it is acceptable to have all of these other prejudices but it is not acceptable to be a racist.  That is why I think most women are trying to avoid being labelled as racist.

We all have some of these prejudices.  Maybe you don't like BBW's or spinners based upon body type.  I don't know.  I am not saying that any of the prejudices that we have are acceptable.  But I am saying that I would prefer to know in advance that she does not want to see my fat behind rather than to show up and be turned away or worse yet spend some hard earned coin on a sub par performance because she can't stand fat people.

Following the logic in your last line should I boycott all providers who don't want to see anyone under 30 or 35 because they are discriminating against the young guys solely based upon age?

and besides Bigpapa,,,,

Who wants to read the same ole joke? Sometimes I write or say what was unexpected...you know....
a little variety is the spice of life...same goes for hobbying.


The Lone Ranger and Tonto were riding on the range one day. The two came to a stop, where Tonto jumped off his horse and put his head on the ground to listen to see if anyone was coming.
After a few seconds he rose and said, "Buffalo come."
The Lone Ranger was amazed and proclaimed "Damn you Indians are smart, how the hell did you know there were buffaloes coming?"
Tonto replied, "Face sticky."

The Lone Ranger...had heard this sort of a reply before from his faithful partner..."Not again... Kimmasabee...I mean just last night when I was playin the bugle",,,Tonto laughed and cut in...."Lone Ranger horny"






Cheers!

I'm outraged Sir ... I don't know just how that joke was racist, but I can spot racism when I see it!

Pistols at dawn??

The Germany Field Marshall Goring had a Jewish (under German law) GrandMother. He Said "I will determine who is a Jew" Goring

Hmm so you're saying the Y doesn't carry the "Big Dick" Gene??
LOL boy did you miss the point

You'll love this tongue twister... and the picture below even more...lol...I'd love to catch her and my tongue would be doing more than twisting...Cheers!

"Chief Crazyhorse of the Chesapeake clucked with chagrin when he couldn’t catch the cheeky Cochese."





-- Modified on 7/10/2003 1:17:41 PM

I guess honesty has it's disadvantages..
 If admitting my sexual preference is racist, so be it. Satified MLAM? If my preferences were carried out in my personal and everyday life, I would be ashamed, but announcing I'd rather sleep with, and are generally attracted to white, Asian or Hispanic is nothing to be ashamed of, it's what I prefer, and I have no problem looking at my self in the mirror every morning or sleeping at night..if I were ashamed, it wouldn't be noted on my site.
 Perhaps, I should have the attiude as Papercup posted below that the green should be the over riding color...this attitude would no doubt make you happy..as you view this hobby as just a business transaction and not intimate, personal time shared between 2 people where physical attraction plays a big role..
My intregrity can't be bought, I' be retired be now if it could. I will always decline those that I don't believe I can give my 100% for, and my preferences go beyond the race and are made clear on my site.
 I'm passed up on everyday by gentleman whose preference in ladies is Asian, Hispanic, African American etc.. I respect their preferences on who they decide to share their intimate time with and don't label them for not including me.
 If there's a heaven, I highly doubt St Peter would deny my entry, or slam those pearly gates in the face(male or female) of anyone who had preferences in the race of the person they chose to sleep with

There's something pornographic about the way she's straddling that horse. I don't know just what exactly can be considered pornographic about riding a horse, but I know it when I see it!

Damn you Sir. You are a buffoon, and a bestial one at that!

...though "admitting" your sexual preferences doesn't make you a racist, having them in this first place (in this case, saying you "prefer" to sleep with anyone who isn't African American) does.

I'm not surprised you have no problems looking yourself in the mirror...I am sure you've long ago decided to not even bother with trying to examine what you find so offensive about African American men, in all there shapes, sizes, shades and colors (indeed...I am sure you preferences go far beyond African American, and extend to anyone you'd think of as "Black"...Caribbean, Trinidadian, people from Fuji, etc...)

You have indeed done the right thing by indicating your "preference" on your site...in this regard you do justice to the point Orthodox is making, and that I was originally making nearly two years ago, that is if you are going to be a racist, at least warn me as much.

"I will always decline those that I don't believe I can give my 100% for..."

Well that is commendable, though it doesn't address the issue as to why you feel you couldn't give them your 100%. THAT is the heart of the matter in so far as your perspective, though not the issue insofar as this thread. In this thread, in the context of the matter to which Orthodox sought debate, you do indeed fall on the "right" side of the fence. You're a racist, and as the several posts alluding to you make clear, people are aware of it. Many of them just don't care.

Me thinks they would have been the same sort of gentlemen who wouldn't have seen a problem with slavery in the 1800, or the rampant oppression of civil liberties and freedom's for black in the 1950's and 1960's. Since it didn't affect THEM, their main concern would be why are those colored folks causing so much racket? "Everything would be just fine if them Negroes would just leave things the way they are. I ain't got nothing against colored folk...I just don't understand why they got to make trouble".

In any event, to answer your question, yes, I am satisfied. As I am sure you are as well...your business isn't hurt in anyway, and you can still feel whatever smug superiority you derive from knowing that while you have slept with 100's (thousands?) of men, of all shapes and sizes, of all backgrounds, ethic groups and national origins...from men attractive enough to be able sell THEIR sexuality for profit, to guys so unattractive they wouldn't be able to get laid without having come to see you...you have had sex with all of these men (and claim to have been "general attracted to each and every one of them...lol) and not a single one of them was "black".

Me, I will garner my smug superiority from knowing that I'm not like you...and that I judge people for who they are, and not the origin of their ancestry...in ALL matters.


-- Modified on 7/10/2003 5:25:48 PM

"Following the logic in your last line should I boycott all providers who don't want to see anyone under 30 or 35 because they are discriminating against the young guys solely based upon age? "

Well, I never said that last line was "logic", it is just my emotional sentiment of how **I** feel...that I wouldn't see any provider who discriminated against ANY groups based on racial or ethic or religious lines, and it saddens me that many hobbyist don't care. But, as much as it saddens me, it doesn't surprise me. Like I alluded to in my post to Ali below, many, many people thought they were in the "right" simply because THEY didn't own slaves, or because THEY didn't go around wearing white sheets and blow up churches. Me, I have intolerance for prejudice and hatred whether I'm the person being discriminated or not. It is the PRINICPAL...not the execution there of.

Now, having said all that, I would say that "body type" discrimination does not equate to racial discrimination. If you are a "big guy" or if a provider is a big woman, then something is known about their physical appearance, without having met them, and yes, a person might have a preference. When Ali decides she doesn't like "black men", she knows nothing about them...nothing to base the prejudice against that refers to the ACTUAL PERSON, versus an ENTIRE RACE. She doesn’t' know what they look like...all people of color don't look the same. We aren't even all "dark"...my wife's brother, who was raised in a bi racial family (just as her of course) is lighter then some Caucasians (for example some Greek or Italians) and is without question lighter than many Hispanics. So...if Ali "lack of attraction" is based on simply not being attracted to darker people (which WOULD be a rational position, if still unfortunate), then presumably she's had no problem seeing my brother-in-law. But I am sure she would appalled...he (my BIL) thinks of himself as "black", and I am sure would do nothing to disguise this. All that to say that while any provider who decides to not see certain "body types" is probably cutting off her nose to spite her face, AND is probably a less than pleasant person to deal with in any event, I would not equate that position to racial discrimination.

Insofar as the religious or ethic discrimination, that IS just as reprehensible, and for the same reasons. Knowing someone is a Muslim tells you NOTHING about him or her other then that they are Muslim. True Muslims are not repressive in their attitudes towards women...that stereotype (much like the stereotypes against African Americans) is exaggerated by the media by having the behavior of a few represent the nature of the whole. Indeed, if a guy is in the United States and is calling to schedule an appointment to see an escort, that would say far more about his attitude towards women than his religion. Meaning, well, yeah, he might be an asshole. I am sure plenty of white Catholics clients are assholes too. I wouldn't see a provider who I knew discriminated based on religion or ethic background.

But...to your specific question...age discrimination...that is "different". While there are of course plenty of exceptions, it IS a fact that age and behaviors can be loosely tracked. We have a very general term for this...maturity. We practice rational age discrimination in many of our institutions for just this reason...certain age to drive...certain age to vote. Of course this practice is unfair to some who on an individual basis fall outside the normal for the age / maturity curve, but I suspect providers also make plenty of allowance based on screening. If a 31-year-old guy conducts himself as a gentleman during the screening phase, I doubt if a provider with "35 or older" preferences would turn him away.

The point here is the age "preferences" tend to in reality be "guidelines". Providers who post such messages to their websites are more than likely not so much looking to turn away 34 year olds as they are making it clear what sort of experience they are NOT looking to provide...the "presumed" session type that you allude to in your post.

When Ali (or others) discriminate against racial or ethic groups, it is not a "guideline" with room for assessment of a client as an individual. And thus the center piece of my argument...judging ME without knowing ME in any shape or form I take offense to, and when that judgment is made based on race, well, as we have agreed, that is racist.

So...the answer to your question (finally!!) is...do what you please. But I wouldn't "boycott" a provider who had age preferences, for all the reason I am sure I have made less than clear.

There. My post was even longer than yours!!


-- Modified on 7/11/2003 6:49:12 AM

When Ali decides she doesn't like "black men", she knows nothing about them...nothing to base the prejudice against that refers to the ACTUAL PERSON, versus an ENTIRE RACE

 I have NEVER said that I don't like black men, I PREFER men of a certain races behind closed doors because this is what I have been sexually attracted to in the past and I'm generally NOT sexually to attracted to black men. Get over it. This isn't a dating ritual where there is plenty of get to know you time..and attraction can grow..it's about being intimate with strangers with very little get to know each other time and I would never see anyone if I knew up front it wasn't going to work or I had an inkling I would be attracted to him sexually.

 And stating in your post below to me that I must derive  a 'smug superiority' because your assumption is I haven't been hit all the races is your most clueless comment yet..you have no idea who Ive been with...what an ignorant thing to say. And to even suggest I would feel any type of superiority over anyone for any reason just adds to your cluelessness about me.

 Men zero in on certain races while looking through escort malls..not everyone is sexually attracted to every race..I guess that makes everyone a racist in your eyes.


-- Modified on 7/10/2003 5:42:23 PM

that would be required to evaluate each black man as an individual - less work to just stereotype and judge them all by whatever experiences you have had with them as a group in the past.

More just "lazy racism" than "vicious racism".

Like = "Sexually Attracted To"

I didn’t mean to imply anything else...sorry if I did.

"I'm generally NOT sexually to attracted to black men."

Well now, it wasn't "generally" before...it was "I'm not". "Generally" changes EVERYTHING. So which is the truth?

"Get over it."

Sweetie, I could care less about you. You decided to respond to my post when I gave a name to the provider that we all knew people were making reference to before. There is nothing for me to get over...you are but a name on a message board, and nothing I know about you as a person (versus as an escort...I have to admit your reviews are hot...) would give me any desire to know you. This is merely topical debate...no "getting over" required.

"...you have no idea who I’ve been with"

I can only assume that your policy of not seeing "black men" means you've never seen "black men". If there is a contradiction in this, feel free to clear it up. Otherwise, it is a pretty reasonable assumption. I mean, you're the one who keep ranting about how you don't find "black men" "sexually attractive"...are you now saying that this is because you HAVE in fact slept with a few and assumed they were representative of the entire race?

"Men zero in on certain races while looking through escort malls...not everyone is sexually attracted to every race...I guess that makes everyone a racist in your eyes."

Men "zeroing in" and "refusing to slept with" are two different things. I'll try explaining this to see if it is clear, though given everything else, I suspect it won't be to you. Whether that is because you are obstinate or "clueless"...who is to say?

I actually happened to have a "preference" for big bootie WFs for my escorting activities (back when I used to see escorts...). Now, if I have a CATALOG...an "escort mall" to chose from, well, since I have a choice, then it makes sense I would go with my preference.

That isn't the same as saying I am not "sexually attracted" to any other woman. It doesn't mean I would refuse to sleep with any other woman. It doesn't mean that I discount anything about anyone else as individuals...my reviews reveal that I haven't exclusively hobbied with big bootied WFs, and I can assure you I haven't only dated them in my civilian life. I just find that big bootied WFs are more fun to spank...lol.

What you are saying is that someone's race is a problem for you. Not their physical makeup, because as I have tried to explain (you were paying attention, right?) knowing someone's racial background tells you NOTHING about their actual physical appearance. I look nothing like my brother-in-law, who looks nothing like my best friend. We are each three "black men"...we don't resemble each other in anyway.

When men "zero in" on certain races because they are EXCLUDING any others...for example...they might feel like as members of the superior Aryan race their precious seed is only suitable to be shared with someone like yourself, well, yeah, that would make them racist.

On the other hand, if they "zero in" on certain races because of a particular fetish (like my big booty WF fetish), it isn't at the EXCLUSION on others. I would (well, I would have, before I said "I do") be willing to "hook up" with any attractive woman of ANY race. I'm NOT racist. But if given a choice amongst HUNDREDS...well...sometimes I do indeed have preferences.

By comparison, you are rejecting an ENTIRE RACE of men, without knowing what they look like. You aren't exhibiting "preference"...you (presumably) don't know what MOST of your clients look like before you meet them, so how can you say you "prefer" them? No...you are practicing EXCLUSION. The men with their preferences that you are trying to hide behind aren't REFUSING to sleep with those ladies they take a pass on when going through an escort mall (I mean, they might...they might find some unattractive...but only the RACIST ones reject them based simply on their race), they simply are choosing their particular flavor for the day.

You don't (as best I know) "choose" your clients. Sure, you screen and might decide to take a pass someone...but for the most part they chose YOU. They call you, make inquiries, etc. And, based on your comments in the past that you don't turn people away based on their physical appearance, I can only assume this means that if they make it to your door with their money in hand, they get the goods. Where does your "preference" come into play?

"Preference" versus "Exclusion". Hopefully that is clear now...

"not everyone is sexually attracted to every race"

See...as a racist yourself, I guess that seems reasonable and logical to you. It only shows the depths of your distorted perspective.

An open-minded person can recognize that ANYONE of ANY RACE is attractive...sexually or otherwise (BTW...this "sexually attractive" distinction of yours is pretty pathetic...). If a woman is good looking, she is good looking...it doesn't matter where her ancestors hail from or what the sequencing in her DNA identify her as. As a racist, I know this is hard for you to believe, but I truly think MOST people feel this way...thus the recognition of many people of ALL different races creeds and colors as sex symbols...from Brad Pitt to Will Smith to Ricky Martin to Jet Li to Angelina Jolie to Halle Berry to Jennifer Lopez to Lucy Liu.

See how that works when you aren't a racist? ALL PEOPLE OF ALL RACES can be beautiful...because what makes a person beautiful isn't DEFINED by the color of their skin or the nature of their ethnic background.

And if you (or the men you allude to) can't understand that...then YEAH...that makes them (and you) RACIST...


-- Modified on 7/10/2003 8:47:15 PM

-- Modified on 7/11/2003 7:10:13 AM

 You're right, but not from being lazy, I just don't have the time, so I do zero in those that are easiest to screen etc.

You seem to always want to get the last word in. The fact Ali does not find Black men attractive is not her problem. Yes, I happen to be one of the races she is attracted to, but I have also been turned down by ladies who are not attracted to Asians. If she does NOT want to take the time to get to know a Black man so she could be intimate, so be it. Let's not label someone "racist" because of that. It bothers me race is being brought up so much in this country nowadays. I understand that without people like that, progress will never be made. But this is going too far.

If you go on any dating sites, match.com, or whatever dating sites out there. Men and Women alike generally state the race they prefer to date, that doesn't make any of them racists. In non-hobbying life, I have slept with Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, which doesn;t make me a racist towards my own race. I will probably eventually marrying an Asian girl...

Anyways, I could go so much further into it, but I won't. There are bigger things to fight about in life, and this is not one them

I've met Ali.  I'm not black.  I'm not white.  I know bigotry as I've been subject to it.  Ali's not a bigot.  Get over it.

Equating a sexual preference to bigotry shows your lack of understanding of the concept.

Regards,

Talisman

to be free thinkers, or to express their opinions and preferences openly. Sounds like you're the one with the problem, not Ali.

From where I'm sitting it sure looks like you just want to pin a label on her rather than allowing her to have an opinion that runs anathema to your agenda/opinion.

I've never seen Ali, or even spoken to her, but the comments, posts and buzz in these boards, chat rooms, and reviews speak for themselves.

If you don't like what she has to say, you have a right to express your opinion. However, playing the "race" card is an old and tired mantra.

Cheers,

HPG

"If she does NOT want to take the time to get to know a Black man so she could be intimate, so be it. Let's not label someone "racist" because of that. "

Then what would you call it?

If someone has decided that they don't wish to get to know you SIMPLY because of your race, then what is that called? When a decision is made abotu you as a person without bothering to get to know YOU as a person, but simply because of race, if that isn't racism, then what is it called?

The "problem" is that all involved think the term "racist" is so vile that it should be reserved for people in white sheets. That, whether you like it or not, isn't true. A racist is ANYONE who makes decisions about people based on race, versus them as an individual.

"Men and Women alike generally state the race they prefer to date, that doesn't make any of them racists. In non-hobbying life, I have slept with Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, which doesn;t make me a racist towards my own race. I will probably eventually marrying an Asian girl..."

Not only does this not DISPUTE my point, it MAKES my point as I posted above. A "preference", which is what Ali claims, is when one says something like "I'll probably end up marrying an Asian girl"...for whatever reasons. But, as you point out, this doesn't mean you've ruled out getting to know OTHER people.

She (Ali) might indeed have her preferences. No, that doesn't make her racist. But when she REFUSES to bother dealing with a SPECIFIC race, simply BECAUSE of race, THAT IS RACIST.

I can't make this anymore plain...that fact that people are so focused on "that is a mean thing to say" versus dealign witht he issue logically and rationally, just goes to show you how and why racism in this country still exists....

I explained the difference between "sexual preference" and "bigtory" above, though I explain it as "preference" versus "exclusion". If you haven't read it, and care to do so, feel free. If you did, and YOU still don't understand the difference, c'est la vie. But **I** DO understand it.

The fact that you have been subject to bigtory does indeed give you qualifications to recognize it. The fact that apparently Ali didn't subject YOU to bigtory though doesn't mean she isn't a bigot. I know plenty of people who are bigots who treat me just swell...because they aren't bigotted against ME. Given that you had what was presumably a one on one encounter for...what? two hours maybe...when you were both relative strangers and probably doing your best to be at your best, I don't think is a real litmus test for an assessment of Ali's perspective on the world or how she treats others who aren't YOU.

But...I am sure she appreciate your standing up for her like the loyal fan you apparently are...

And I am certain you feel that fact that you felt comfortable seeing someone who does discriminate doesn't disqualify you on judgement of character in this matter either.

"She saw me as a client...she isn't a bigot"...yeah, right. THAT is a valid line of thinking...

"If you don't like what she has to say, you have a right to express your opinion. However, playing the "race" card is an old and tired mantra."

The THREAD TOPIC is about screening based on race. Hello??? "Play the race card..." hell, I didn't even START THE THREAD! I didn't even drag her into the discussion...others did...they simply refused to name her.

"...to be free thinkers, or to express their opinions and preferences openly. Sounds like you're the one with the problem, not Ali."

Two problems here...one...I never said she couldn't "express her opinions and preferences openly"...in fact, I commended her for having the guts to do so, thus all can be aware. That was the whole point of the thread...why is it that racist providers don't just simply say so up front and save all involved grief (re read Orthodox's original post if you aren't clear on this). Two...why the hell would she be entitled to "express her opinions and preferences openly" but I not be allowed to? Last time I checked, this was a DISCUSSION BOARD. You post something, it is open to critique. You place your racial "preferences" on a website for the entire WORLD to see, well then someone is likely to make comment.

"From where I'm sitting it sure looks like you just want to pin a label on her rather than allowing her to have an opinion that runs anathema to your agenda/opinion."

I'm preventing her from doing squat. You think she is going to change ANYTHING about the way she conducts herself based on my "opinions and preferences"? Insofar as the label, she pinned in on herself by making her "preferences" (that just tickles me to death..."preferences"...anything to paint ourselves in a better light) known to the world. And bless her for doing so...that way open-minded people with conscious can choose accordingly.

"but the comments, posts and buzz in these boards, chat rooms, and reviews speak for themselves. "

I am not familiar with the "comments, posts and buzz in these boards, chat rooms," you speak of and how they "speak for themselves"...insofar as "reviews"...umm, I don't thing the fact that she is a great lay means she isn't a bigot. Perhaps you can explain the connection here...because she is a friendly person and very accommodating...well, then, she can't be a bigot?

That is laughable...but not surprising for reasons I have already given...

Your the idiot for calling that picture pornography.
Its a picture of Beauty...now mind you I didn't send you the picture of me and her riding bareback...so whose the fool now.
BTW,varment, this is the erotic review board.You want the TAR board, The Asshole Review board...
now be gone!

if I only knew what race you were!  

In my book stating a preference, and stating it up front saves me and others from a less than excellent session. I use this board, and the reviews herein as a resource to ensure I get the most "BANG" for the buck.

If the lady is not into me or my look I want know about it up front. That way, I don't walk into a session where neither of us is comfortable with each other. If you consider the amount of money we're all trading here, it's ridiculous to not have as much disclosure as is reasonable from both sides, to ensure that the expectation of the session provides the best value for your dollar.

Past that, a provider is entitled to do business (or not) with whomever she pleases. That is a business decision on her part. If you don't like it you're free to find someone else. Based on your posts I would guess that you have already.

Hobbyists are also entitled to see (or not) anyone they please based on their preferences. There are certain looks, and demographics that I have absolutely no desire to spend my hard earned cash on because I do not find them appealing. If something is not appealing to me, I don't see the point of trying to make it appealing because someone says I should.

Cheers,

HPG

Racism is everywhere.I'm a racist. I don't like black men and white woman together. Most black woman can't stand white girls dating their black men. So there it is, plain and simple, racism is everywhere.
I also find that most black woman aren't attractive to me. Most, not all. I guess that also would make me a racist if I hadn't already admitted to being one. This logic is being applied to Ali's post of not being attracted to black men.
I think there are different levels of racism. While I disagree with my Clansman forfathers actions, I am against interracial dating. I do have a few black friends, and they are more than welcome in my home & in my heart, as I do have true feelings of friendship. But as with everything, there are limits.

...my last post on this...let's leave it for the TER jury to decide if my posts are inflamatory.My current and past history of posting includes some very light hearted humor and  anyone can read thst it does not mean to offend any race, color, or creed.I rest my case.

I thought it was clear from my ridiculous posts in this little side thread, let alone my tongue-in-cheek alias, that this was all a good-natured joke (the main thread is way too serious, don't you think?) ... I was just "playin wid ya."  Sorry if it went overboard. I thought you picked up on it and were playing along too. Anyway, no hard feelings.

I know... its in your ID.

All in good fun. No hard feelings.

I was preparing my defense...and the glove don't fit...lol

What was that line again?

Cheers!

Racism is one of those subjects, like religion and politics, that polarizes us when it's discussed.  Some of us have very strong feelings about it.  MLAM, it seems to be a real issue for you in particular, but also for those offended by the term "racist."  In case you haven't noticed, most white people really bristle upon hearing that word, especially if they feel it's directed at them.  Reducing that word down to it's precise semantic value doesn't remove any of the onus attached to it by society.  It's almost at the same level as "child molester."  That's why you've encountered such a reaction, not because they don't want to face the truth.

All of us, at one time or another, have practiced racism to one degree or another.  Does that make all of us racists?  Maybe.  If so, then I'm a racist too.

-- Modified on 7/11/2003 12:24:57 PM

***"In my book stating a preference, and stating it up front saves me and others from a less than excellent session. I use this board, and the reviews herein as a resource to ensure I get the most "BANG" for the buck. "

Agreed...and to her credit Ali does this.

***"If the lady is not into me or my look I want know about it up front. That way, I don't walk into a session where neither of us is comfortable with each other. If you consider the amount of money we're all trading here, it's ridiculous to not have as much disclosure as is reasonable from both sides, to ensure that the expectation of the session provides the best value for your dollar."

Agreed...to a lessor degree. If my race matters to a provider, she should ask. I shouldn't have to assume it does, because as far as I am concerned, it shouldn't. I am clean, sae, and have every intention of paying (and tipping). Hell, I've even been told I'm not bad looking, though am getting soft around the middle. THese are the only things that SHOULD matter. Still, if she asks, I will tell, for the reasons you cite. But I don't think the impetus is on me to ASSUME that my ethic background could be a problem...for the reasons I gave in response to the ridiculous "bait and switch" post.

***"Past that, a provider is entitled to do business (or not) with whomever she pleases. That is a business decision on her part. If you don't like it you're free to find someone else. Based on your posts I would guess that you have already"

And believe it or not, I don't disagree with you here either. But by making that choice she can't pretend that it isn't what it is, a decision based in racist attitudes.

Funny that you should describe it as a "business decision". I've described it as a "business transaction" all along...and was disgreed with.

Ali's attitude clearly doesn't hurt HER business, so I am a bit baffled that she takes such objection, other than to know that she finds it personally offensive. Funny...so do I...and just like her, I reserve the right to make my objection known...

" I am generally attracted to men that are Asian, white or Hispanic"

'Sweetie,' the above was taken from the text on my site..
Can I make myself any clearer?

"I can only assume that your policy of not seeing "black men" means you've never seen "black men". "

Ignorant people 'assume'..the rest base their decision on someone from what they know to be fact.


"I actually happened to have a "preference" for big bootie WFs for my escorting activities (back when I used to see escorts...). Now, if I have a CATALOG...an "escort mall" to chose from, well, since I have a choice, then it makes sense I would go with my preference."


This says it all, I too have a choice, so it would make
sense that I too would go with my preference..
I guess this sort of blows your theory..If I have a choice,
like the gentleman do..then I go with my preference...

"You don't (as best I know) "choose" your clients. Sure, you screen and might decide to take a pass someone...but for the most part they chose YOU. They call you, make inquiries, etc. And, based on your comments in the past that you don't turn people away based on their physical appearance, I can only assume this means that if they make it to your door with their money in hand, they get the goods. Where does your "preference" come into play?"

Wrong! .....In the end it is MY choice, as it is with most ladies, we make the decision on who to see based on the information provided..therefore, I do choose the gentleman. Just as gentleman do when they make inquiries, they make them to the girls they feel are right for them.

"Preference" versus "Exclusion." Hopefully that is clear now..."

 What's clear is that no matter what I say you, will label me as a 'racist',
even though it's evident with your inaccurate assumptions, you know nothing about me or the way I do business, except that I prefer sleeping with certain races.
 And commenting that 'sexual preference' as being  'pathetic' is laughable..if we each didn't have a preference of look and type in the bedroom(which is what this biz is about)..the escort malls wouldn't be separating by categories based on appearance, TER wouldn't have a search with appearance fields etc.

 I think I've made my point..you will  no doubt continue to try and make yours...But I think this thread has turned more into your ego in relation
to what I prefer and not your race in relation to what I prefer...
Good luck to you. Ali




 

"Hobbyists are also entitled to see (or not) anyone they please based on their preferences. There are certain looks, and demographics that I have absolutely no desire to spend my hard earned cash on because I do not find them appealing. If something is not appealing to me, I don't see the point of trying to make it appealing because someone says I should."

BINGO!  Thanks HPG!

Love ALi xo

BTW, Death to O.J.    

Hey! You weren't supposed to look in here! Didn't you see the EOM?  

'Ali's attitude clearly doesn't hurt HER business, so I am a bit baffled that she takes such objection, other than to know that she finds it personally offensive. Funny...so do I...and just like her, I reserve the right to make my objection known... "

Hmmm? You're 'baffled' that someone takes personal offense to be called a racist based on who they prefer to sleep with? This 'baffles' you..?  

Unbelievable...

***" I am generally attracted to men that are Asian, white or Hispanic"

'Sweetie,' the above was taken from the text on my site..
Can I make myself any clearer?

Yeah...you could. You could stop speaking in code and just make it plain as to whether or not you are willing to see "Black" clients. Because THAT above sounds like just marketing speak for "I won't see Black clients, but I don't want to come out and say that because it might offend some people whose money I would be happy to take"

***"Ignorant people 'assume'..the rest base their decision on someone from what they know to be fact."


Only an idiot wouldn't make the assumptions I have...that "I am generally attracted to men that are Asian, white or Hispanic" is code for "don't bother calling me if you are Black". At least three other people in this thread have made that same assumption. If that ISN'T the case, well hell, call me wrong right here and right now. Feel free to set the record straight...

"Ignorant people 'assume'..the rest base their decision on someone from what they know to be fact."

NO TRURE WORDS HAVE BEEN SPOKEN...so...is this something you practice or not? Or...are you "too busy" to bother with this exercise, as you alluded to in another post?

***"Wrong! .....In the end it is MY choice, as it is with most ladies, we make the decision on who to see based on the information provided..therefore, I do choose the gentleman. Just as gentleman do when they make inquiries, they make them to the girls they feel are right for them."

I can see that. It is a matter of perspective, but I can see that. To me, you don't "choose" because if someone doesn't make the inquiry, then you can't "choose" them...that is, if they haven't already chose you, you wouldn't be a part of the equation. Your point is that you get the final say...which it true. I can see your point...it really is perspective.

***"What's clear is that no matter what I say you, will label me as a 'racist', even though it's evident with your inaccurate assumptions, you know nothing about me or the way I do business, except that I prefer sleeping with certain races."

Not true. If you were to say right now that you DO in fact see men of all races, then you'd no longer be a racist. There is nothing wrong with having a preference...there is something wrong with exclusion...or an "assumption", to use your phrase...based exclusively on race.

***"And commenting that 'sexual preference' as being  'pathetic' is laughable..if we each didn't have a preference of look and type in the bedroom(which is what this biz is about)..the escort malls wouldn't be separating by categories based on appearance, TER wouldn't have a search with appearance fields etc."

You know...you could at least bother to quote me correctly. I posted "this "sexually attractive" distinction of yours is pretty pathetic.."...meaning, in the past you have tried to draw a distinction between "attractive" and "sexually attractive" as cover for your racial discrimination. And that distinction is still pathetic. There is no difference between "attractive" and "sexually attractive"...

***"But I think this thread has turned more into your ego in relation to what I prefer and not your race in relation to what I prefer..."

It isn't about my ego...like I said, you are persona non grata to me. We will never meet. It is a discussion board, so as long as you are willing to try to make a logical defense for your position, I am prepared to logically refute it...that is why discussion boards exist.

So...set me and the rest of the world straight Ali...answer the question you have refused to answer the past, when posed by me..when posed by others. Someone calls you up for service...they are polite, well spoken, friendly in their manner. They are everything you could reasonably expect from a client..

1) Do you ask them what race they are in order to "be sure", or are they supposed to "read between the lines" of you "generally prefer" statement?

2) If they say they are "Black"...do you declien to see them right then and there, even though up until that point everything about them said it would be a postive experience for both parties?

There you go Ali...no need for any further assumptions on my part. Just set the record straight...hell...you might save yourself a lot of unwelcome phone calls...





-- Modified on 7/11/2003 1:37:56 PM

Size 12....Bruno M...you can't acquit.

Alright people enough already, we as users of this website look at the websites and make choices, not really based on personality but on physical appearance. Now if there was a 6 foot tall provider and a five foot tall hobbyist said to himself I can't call her she's too tall is he to be accused of 'heightism' or 'sizism' - no of course that is just what he's attracted to. Now if a petite provider says no guys over 6 foot because she is not attracted to bodies that much bigger than her, that is her personal choice. They choose to see us and in most cases are using their time with us instead of spending that time slot with someone else paying an equal the ammount of money- then we're fortunate, it's not our deserved right. If Ali's preference was guys who resemble Brad Pitt or even guys who resemble John Belushi that's her choice and anyone who does not fit into that category may complain or use that as an excuse to flame her here, but come on.Applaud her honesty and graciousness for saving people from a possibly uncomfortable situation and call someone who may be more compatable with you. it's time to move on. Ali keep up the good work and people save for flames and vitriol for the ROBs that deserve it

been made about this issue.  I doubt that any reader is going to change their minds by now.  Maybe it is time to stop this sub thread, get off the computer, enjoy this beautiful summer and spend time with our love ones.

MLAM, you're an intelligent and articulate person.  I have gained much insight about relationships from you past posts.  Although I have a different take on this issue, I understand this is special to you and I am not articulate enough to present a worthwhile counter argument.  Besides, I am not an African American or a party to this argument so it would hard to drum up the emotions to make a heartfelt case.

Throughout the history of the republic, race is a hot issue and unfortunately, it is still a major issue in our society.  It is not a bad idea to talk about it in a discussion or illustrate a specific case as an example to one's argument.  After all, a civil discourse is something one should encourage.

However, sometimes, strong emotions started to take over on both side.  The productive effect of a civil discourse quickly turned into a dispirited jousting match.  It only worked to drown out whatever valid points one had made.

I truly don’t mean to act like a bunch of LA members ganging up on you in defense of Ali.  That’s not my purpose here.  I am also sensitive to the fact that this message is addressed to you and not the other parties of this hot debate.  It is just that I have a lot of respect for you and what you have done in this board.  I hate to see you getting all worked up in this issue while you have a lovely SO to spend time with.

Sometimes life is too short to keep argument with someone else instead of smelling the roses.  The points have been made and in my humble opinion, time to drop the curtain.

Take care and have a good weekend.

GC

Let's get some facts here..

The ICERD defines racism as follows:
"Any distinction, exclusion,restriction, or preference based on race, color, descent or national or ethinic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, engagement, or excercise on equal footing for human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social and cultural or any other field of public life."

Here's webster's definition:

1. A belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

You accuse Ali, of being a racist. She does not fit the definition. Yes she and many of us have preferences about what we like to eat and yes who we want to engage with on an intimate level. Yes, some of these are racial preferences. But that does not by any means rise to the level of calling someone a Racist!!!

It is a strong word and very unfair to label someone with that word because in one specific area of their lives they have a preference.  I am a male, and I chose not to engage in sex with other men. I guess that makes me homophobic using your logic..

We all have prejudices it is part of being human. Having some prejudices does not make one a racist. Yes it is discrimentory, but for crying out loud in an area of this type where people are having intimate contact, the ladies, and men should have the right to decide who they deal with, and they should be able to communicate it in a way they feel comfortable without you crucifying them! If you want to take up the cause of racism, there are plenty of areas where your passion would be better directed...  


-- Modified on 7/11/2003 2:22:02 PM

Three stories, once a provider ask me my "nationality", so I said Canadian. I don't think it answered the question. Why would she say nationality?

2) Once a provider asked me about my race. I said AA. She said you don't have a black dick do you? I said I'm carmel all over and this was ok. As it turned out she like me enough to put out freebees when she had a job.  What was with that?

3) Once a women (psuedo provider and U.S Navy cleck) who was Black,  rejected me because I was not dark enough?!? Her mind equates
penis size = agressive sex = skin colour. So who I've dated has always been a fying pan/fire choice

I never said she didn't have "the right"...and I am not suggesting otherwise...

I am suggesting that such "preferences" (again with the icing) when EXCLUDING otehrs by design without regard for them as individuals is RACIST.

Frankly, I don't care about a text book definition, though I don't agree that what she does if indeed she pratices her discrimination policy as I believe (since she hasn't responded, I don't know) falls outside of the definitons you posted. It doesn't matter. The FUNCTIONAL definition is much simpler...when you make a decision about a person based solely on their race, then that is racist.

Now, since you are a member of her fan club, I am not exactly prepared to think of you as an unbiased contributor here..

BTW..here is a definiton **I** found...

"2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race."

There you go...

I am glad that there IS such thing as interacial dating. If that was not the case, I WOULD NOT BE LIVING! My Grandmother was Caucasian. My Grandfather was full Cherokee Indian. This is all on my father's side. Without my father being born by their union, he would never have met my mother, which resulted: MEEEEEEEE I didn't come out so badly, because of it, either purrrr... Also, I do take offense to the statement that most black women are not attracted to Caucasian men. That is so untrue. There are many that are attracted to Caucasian men. About a couple of years ago, there is was an article in Ebony magazine, about the uprising of African American women dating outside their race. I also do know some black women that are dating interacially. Infact, my older sister has been dating an Italian gentleman for about 3 years, and they plan on getting married. Our families do get along  I had dated a Caucasian man for 11 years, and we broke up about 5 years ago (yes, we started very young, for I am 34 now lol).  I've dated men of my race, as well. I have been attracted to Latin men, Asians,  etc. I find beauty in every culture. What I have learned is that there is no difference in attitudes. I found that some men can be gentlemen, and some can be "dogs", and they all come in all races.

Now, back to my Mike Hammer series (and what a hunk he is..purrrr) lol

Mel


-- Modified on 7/11/2003 3:57:52 PM

We'll have to agree to disagree.  IMO, your definition of racism is much too broad and doesn't make sense to me in a sexual context as well as many other contexts.

Before accusing people of being shills, you should probably check their posting history, and your prior responses to their posts.  I don't post often, but I consistently support diversity of opinion, even if popular CSWs stand on the other side.  In this case, I just don't happen to agree with the substance of your post so I responded.

Take it easy, not everyone is out to get you.  

Regards,

Talisman

Rational age discrimmination in this country is ended by age 21 if not before and after that you are considered an adult with all the priveleges and responsibilites of an adult.  Over the years I have heard enough providers who ask your age as a first or second question to believe that it is just a preference with many providers.  You state that "it is a fact that age and behaviors can be loosely tracked".  I don't know of any studies that have been done to prove the general stereotypes about young men that I posted in my thread above.  They are just comments that I have heard providers make over the years.  And in fact one black provider mentioned that she did not want to see black males because they wanted to bang away like there was no tomorrow.

We do have various statistics regarding African American males.  According to police and Justice Department Statitics they are x number of times more likely to committ murder, rape, burglary, etc. than there white counterparts.  According to the CDC they are x number of times more likely to be infected with HIV, etc.
In theory a provider could say I don't want to see an African American male because statistically I am much more likely to be murdered, raped, robbed or get infected with HIV by seeing him.  

What you are saying to a provider is do not judge me based upon the stereotype created by what a few of my race have done and treat me as an individual.  The 28 year old is saying essentially the same thing to the provider.  Do not judge me based upon the sterotype created by a few young men but treat me as an individual.  

As to some of your other comments I don't have the time to walk through them point by point or to come up with additional examples.  But I will say the following.
 
I am not sure what a true Muslim is.  Are you?  Cat Stevens a supposed devout Muslim felt it was appropriate for Khomeni to target(essentially put out a contract on him) the author of Santanic Verses for death.  Is Reverend Farakhan a true Muslim or just another racist?

The comparison is invalid…

*** Rational age discrimmination in this country is ended by age 21 if not before and after that you are considered an adult with all the priveleges and responsibilites of an adult.  

Not true. One has to be at least 35 years old to be President of the United States. Rental Car companies, depending on the company and the area, won’t rent to anyone under the age of 25. Many bars refuse to admit persons under the age of 25. The point being that age / maturity tracking occurs at all ages (including on the other side of the youth curve, which is why special privileges exists for seniors).

And the reason these exist are because of a general behavior / age correlation. Sometimes it is to the benefit of the person (Senior discounts)…sometimes it is exclusionary. But it is always based on an age / behavior correlation that DOES exist for the majority of persons, which some times screws person who is the exception.

The racial discrimination we are talking about is based on behaviors attributed to a MINORITY persons, then assigned to a group as a whole. Again…Age discrimination is unfair to a minority of persons who are the exception to the presumption made…racial discrimination is unfair to the MAJORITY of persons who are an exception to the presumption.

More over, the comparison is invalid for other reasons I already gave. We all know the escorts with age guidelines practice them as EXACTLY that…guidelines. They don’t turn away the business of 34 yo men just because they state a preference for 35 year olds. They don’t check Ids at the door like a nightclub, turning guys away that come up short. The age guidelines are given to turn away those who know straight away that they are likely to not receive service. Personal interaction / screening further excludes those potential clients who aren’t likely to be seeking the sort of session being offered, and at that point anyone who makes the “cut” and doesn’t insult her intelligence by showing up looking for like a 23 year old will get serviced…even if they is but 30. That is how it works…thus allowing PLENTY of room for assessment of the individual as an individual.

Ali’s policy, as I understand it (and she has refused so far to clarify, preferring instead to continue to hide behind obtuse language designed to be less offensive to those whose money she’ll gladly take) is not a guideline…it is an absolute rule. She will not see “Black” clients. Period. There is no opportunity for evaluation of the individual…she places the policy on her website so that she can purposely avoid even dealing with such persons, because she is “too busy”. She (and all her adoring fans) like to describe it as a “preference”. A “preference” is a description of what you prefer…it doesn’t mean you would REFUSE the other option.  I prefer(ed) big booty WFs for my hobby experiences…those weren’t the only ladies I saw…thankfully, because I had great times with women who wouldn’t fit that description.

Thus, the comparison, both from a logical stand point and in how the policies are actually enforced…is invalid.

*** In theory a provider could say I don't want to see an African American male because statistically I am much more likely to be murdered, raped, robbed or get infected with HIV by seeing him.  

And in theory she could say, “I don’t want to see white males because I don’t want to risk”:

1) Having sex with a serial murderer or rapist
2) Having sex with a domestic terrorist
3) Having sex with a Homosexual who is “in the closet”, “Flying under the radar” or simply in denial.

And actually...(this is why there are lies, damn lies, and statistics) if you had further researched those “police and Justice Department Statitics”, you’d see that Black on white crime is actually very rare, especially in random violence cases (meaning the two parties don’t have a prior relationship). This is why I have always defied people to prove that crimes against ASPs are committed more often by Blacks…I have no doubt whatsoever that this isn’t the case.

When you quote observations like “According to police and Justice Department Statitics they are x number of times more likely to committ murder, rape, burglary, etc. than there white counterparts”, the problem is that you’ve used your premise to prove your point in a sort of circular reasoning that isn’t exactly statistically valid. As has been demonstrated many, many times to counter negative stereotypes just like that one, when you divide those “police and Justice Department Statitics” by virtually ANY other factor besides race (so that you are comparing “apples to apples” so to speak), and THEN make a comparison by race, those differences you cite for the most part disappear. Black males are no more likely to commit crimes than white males when you compare to men of the same income level…or men of the same educational background…or two men who reside in the same zip code…etc. And indeed, when you do see significant statistical differences for some crimes…it is often WHITE males that are more likely to be the perpetrators (drug use for example…much higher amongst middle and upper middle class whites than Blacks…same with domestic violence, same with vandalism, date rape, and several other crimes).

Now providers tend to…consciously or unconsciously…“split the statistical pie” via screening. They screen for things like income level with their rates, education level with their discernment regarding the sort of “vibe” a guy gives, etc. And I have NEVER said that I had a problem with providers turning away ANY CLIENT for ANY REASON regarding her safety or “preferences”…so long as those criteria are applied to ALL potential clients equally and fairly. If she tends to not see men who aren’t articulate because she thinks this means they are less likely to be educated and more likely to be inclined towards violence, I’d argue that she was probably wrong, but I could see her rational, and I wouldn’t call her racist, even though, yes, it is likely that she’d be turning away a greater percentage of Black clients than white. That is because she wouldn’t be making the decision based on RACE…regardless of how the OUTCOME of that decision played out it impact on some clients versus others.

Now…regarding the whole STD thing, I think you will again find that when you divide the “pie” by something OTHER than race, THEN compare across racial lines, you’ll find those differences very much reduced. However, I would guess any REAL research done on this matter would reveal that the provider is more likely to pass a STD on to one of her clients than she is to catch one from a client…given the differences in number of sexual partners, likely lifestyle (ASPs are FAR more likely to be intravenous drug users than the average population…). That isn’t meant as an indictment of ASPs in general, or anyone here…but if you are going to talk about statistical “risk”, then I am confident the risk of receiving an STD lies for more with the hobbyist than the provider.

And finally…regarding the Muslim comments…I’m not sure how the things you mentioned relate to how a Muslim client might treat an Escort, or his attitudes toward women, but to answer your questions…

1) I would assume that a “true” Muslim is someone who “truly” practices the tenets of the Islamic faith…some of which include respect for women and an abhorrence for violence

2) Louis Farakannen is without doubt a racist…as to the nature of his faith; I think only he and his God can answer that.

In conclusion, nothing you’ve said changes my point…that when a person makes decisions of exclusions about people based on their race exclusively, that makes them a racist. I never said that they didn’t have a “right” to be racist…of course they…that is one of the prices we pay for living in an open society of free choice...which BTW, also gives me the “right” to call them out on it…