That is one of the reasons why I go the next one on the shopping list. No need in wasting time with frustration.

It is their right to ask what they want, you don't want to provide move to the next one.

There are plenty of other providers who would more than willing to see you without your last name.

There have been guys with great reputations. They decide to quit the hobby and do something mean on their last appointment, like beat up a provider or not pay. I have heard stories where a provider has seen a guy for 2 years every month then at the end he does not pay.

It is more common than you realize.

Also a provider might want to look up and make sure the client is not on a sexual offender/predator list.

Using an alias because I think these two examples use TER and I don't want them to start contacting me.

One reason is to google you to make sure your not associated with any form of LE. You may have started out in a different career and now in a new one.

True story #1:

One lady I know had seen a client that contacted me. She had seen him and gave me a ref on his behalf.

I googled him and found several photos and atricles on commendations that he had received including attending the FBI special vice training in VA.

She had no idea because she took his provider refs and left it at that. She lives outside his jurisdiction. What if I had just taken her word that he was "fine" and found myself inside his jurusdiction?

HE sent many emails asking why I wouldn't see him because he knew she and I were friendly. Asked if he needed a different reference....I replied that he just needed a different career.

True story #2:

A client (one of my favorite pieces of ass) that I have seen several times over the last year told me during "pillow talk" that he was about to attend the police academy. I'm trying to retain my composure until he left while thinking to myself WTF!?!?!?

So needless to say I can NEVER see him again. Hard thing to do considering he was at the top of my list in the ohh la la department

The information that I get isn't to get you into trouble it's to keep myself out of trouble. I don't keep the info very long, just long enough to check it out.

Don't give it out.
I think it is clearly NOT a safety issue, but a feather that is missing in the cap.
She probably lost a bet over you, lol.

the sex offenders registry.

I never take a chance on someone for any reason. That makes me safe and my clients safe. As long as I never waiver from my screening there is very little chance that LE would be taking a look at my "friends".

I know of a provider who stopped doing full service and just does massage services. She saw a client with references and the guy demanded more than a massage. He ended up raping her. She could not report him because she did not have his last name.

Since my "first name" is not my first name, no reason why the last name has to be either.  

It isn't a critial piece of information. Their insistance on it can't be for anything usueful. It provides no additional information about your suitability as a client, unless you provide other information like DOB DL# etc. to allow them to do the type of thorough background investigation which would be absurd for any man needing discretion to allow.  

They have no way to verify it actually IS your last name to begin with. I once used the name of my cousins dog. You could give them any name, even a real person, that doesn't mean that's the person who shows up at the door. And by the time she's checking your ID at her incall she's already at arms length, if you're a predator, it's too little too late.  

Record keeping, as lilli suggested? Fuck that, no way am I letting some blackmarket business keep my real name in their records.  

For me - references have to be enough, period. RS2K, Date-Check, whatever, fine, even though their highly flawed screening is useless as well. Anything more goes beyond my acceptable limits of confidentiality. How easily they forget, this shit is illegal!

There is nothing wrong with girls being vigilant about protecting themselves, but many of them fail to see how pointless some of their screening practices are and how little, if anything, they accomplish. Like the so-called LE check at the door? Pfffft. There are too many myths in this game.  

Nothing is fool proof. Show me a process that is, and once I finish laughing, I'll show you how easily any semi-resourceful client, or determined vice cop, can get around it.  

This perpetual tight-rope walking act of protecting the provider vs. protecting the clients privacy is an argument that has no definitive answer and no end. Essentially, you can never hope to fully accomplish either beyond a doubt and both sides have to learn to live with certain unavoidable risks or give it up.

You do what you have to do, and they do the same. When it doesn't mesh, you keep it movin.

unknown"I will never divulge my last name and in almost 20 years of participating in the hobby it has never been an issue until now."


  The best way to break rules, is not get caught.
  A realistic fake ID can be bought for  less than a $100.00, or easily make it yourself.
 Email alias,no problem.
 There are places you can rent a land line  phone number, with your fake name.
 How bad is your desire to see her?
 Personally I think provider references amongst themselves, with John cell numbers that match,is the safest route, but I'm not a provider.
If I was, prices would skyrocket out of "everyone's" range.
If I were half as worried as you about being caught, I would wear a mask everywhere, to fool the cameras, and I wouldn't drive my car.
Unless you are a politician or a sports star, you're not as important as you think you are.
Your last name is generic to the agency or indy.
I hope everyone,especially providers, realizes how much personal info can be obtained from a license plate.
Back to your regular programming.

so she can clearly see that my name is indeed, Old Yeller.

True story (using the dogs name), though I only mentioned it as a tongue-in-cheek remark.  

I've only been asked for ID 2 times. And each time they did, I knew before hand it was coming. Fake ID's - I have several. They are cheap and easy to come by. Hell, if you look enough like someone, you can borrow one. Under 21 kids get away with it day in and day out. Ya never wondered why the supposedly 21+ nightclub always has so many girls walking around looking like jailbait?

No I did not have one with the dogs name, but in that particular case I knew I wouldn't be asked, I only used it because I'd forgotten to think of a name before I called - she was one of those girls whose idea of screening was recieving an unblocked call and grabbing your crotch upon arrival. Oh, and lets not forget the always important - are you a cop? Because cops never lie about not being a cop. *rolls eyes*  

But I certainly could get one with the Dogs name - Kodi...uh...Blackpaw. Sounds kinda badass.    

Well, I'd say the name I give you would be as real as the one you give me. You wanna keep your real identity hidden, as do I. In that regard, "dishonesty" is quid pro quo. The expectation that WE should be more forthcoming than YOU, is absurd.

The fact that you DO keep records of every client you've seen only strengthens our justification for gaurding our identities. You are not LE proof, no matter what you think, and we don't want to get tangled in your mess when/if (god forbid, I don't wish it) you find that out. Furthermore, the damage you could do with the information entrusted to you, if you had the mind to, is not something a wise man leaves to chance.

You may think it is ok because YOU know you are trustworthy and smart...but WE don't. The same as I know I am no threat to you, even though you don't, and so I can breeze past your screening with the identity of my choice without feeling any guilt about it. No harm no foul.

I don't encourage anyone to be "dishonest and shady", I encourage them not to foolishly divulge personal info simply because you ask. I don't know that you're anymore trutworthy than the guy who e-mails me saying that the King of Unga Bunga needs my help to cash a check.    

Don't try to make it a moral issue, it's not. Has nothing to do with honor or character. In what world is seeing hookers, or being one, a matter of honor? It has only to do with the fact that I am not going to leave my ass hanging in the wind, to get burned later if YOU fuck up, or go on the war path.

"Dirty, disgusting, vile, classless"...these are all opinions of society at large, about sex workers, AND the men who see them. Having a real name is supposed to change this how? It doesn't change anything about what you do with them behind the closed door. Either it IS all of those things, or it isn't, regardless if I am insert-real-name-here, or Fred Flintstone.

And no, I don't think you can get "pretty danged close". No matter how much you know about him, information being true or false, it is still a stranger coming to your door. A stranger with a name is still a stranger. The only difference is what form of recourse you might have after the fact.  

And I'm well aware of the methods used to dig up information that is not voluntarily given. I worked for a debt collection agency during my first year of college in which my only function was to locate people who didn't want to be found. And people who took any of the simple commen sense steps to avoid it, got their wish, they fell of the radar.

The internet has limited reach, and it can't find what isn't put out there in the first place. It CAN find whatever information is left there for you TO find, which may be what I WANT you to find. And I don't mean to make it sound all double-O-seven, because it's not. Anyone with a bit of resourcefulness can figure out how to skip past an escorts screening process.

All you can do is put your measures in place to improve your odds of safety. And you should. Many guys are too trusting and too oblivious of the potential consequences and make it easy for you. And most scum bags and vice cops (a redundancy, I know) will look for easier targets than a woman who puts up those kind of road blocks. For those of us just looking for some leisure time, maybe we think you're worth the small effort it takes to dance around your screening - take it as a compliment

Just sayin, if anyone really wants to get to you, for whatever reason, asking for their last name won't do shit for you, like most other screening measures that you think are air tight.

I'm a long-time hobbyist with over 80 reviews on TER and a strong presence on a local board in my area.  I have seen many indys and agency girls and have asked them for references on occasion.  My requests have been carried out and I have had no problem with screening ever using that method.

I recently encountered an agency that insists that I must divulge my last name.  The owner already admits that I passed screening (one of her personal friends runs another agency and I have been a client of theirs for almost 10 years).  Even with that assurance, she still insists that she must know my last name.

So, the question is: Why?  What does a last name give her that other assurances do not?  Why is it so important?

This question is posed not to whine but to simply understand the thinking.  I will never divulge my last name and in almost 20 years of participating in the hobby it has never been an issue until now.    It's especially odd considering that her friend vouched for me.

more than likely an agency would require your last name for legal/security and record-keeping purposes. an independent girl may require your last name for any number of reasons, her own personal sense of security and safety being primary among those (and sorry, having someone "vouch" for you just does not provide the same peace of mind). i also require full names because knowing someone's true identity is very important to me...not just for screening purposes which is obvious, but because i have absolutely NO desire to meet with a stranger. i do not engage in the anonymous, NSA hit'n'run encounters which are so popular in the hobby. i am interested in developing actual relationships with actual human beings, and honesty and authenticity are critical components of that.

I have already moved on but I'm curious about the very strong stand that this particular agency took with me.

They have their rules and I have mine and they don't jive.  My personal rule is to never give out my last name where the hobby is concerned.

Many people do not ask for your personal information if you have the history you claim.  Those who do, are taking extra measures to ensure their safety.  Good clients have gone bad.  If you "snap" and hurt someone, it's hard to file a police report against *unknown, and as you can simply change your email and handle - warnings to other ladies may not do any good.

Thank you for asking an honest question instead of being angry or whining about it.


-- Modified on 10/11/2010 11:57:54 AM

People build reputations over years and it would be an extremely rare aberration for someone like that to do something so terrible and uncharacteristic.

I think that the 'last name' issue for this particular agency is out of a sense that it lends some protection.  In reality I bet some clients use false last names and are not caught.

I think it's a false sense of security.

I completely understand the reason being safety but in reality it's not safety but rather the ability to go after a client-turned-bad.  That's the actual purpose of knowing the last name of a client.

However, as we all know, bust occur and names are made public and lives are ruined.  The lives that are ruined are of the 'good' clients not the client that went bad.

I'll stick with my rule to never divulge my last name and I will have to accept that I cannot see certain providers because of it.

Well, poop!  If a guy has seen her loyally for years, maybe he figures he's owed some consideration.  One of the Asian houses I go to gives me a punch card each visit; after ten visits, the next one is free.  I can't afford to keep something like that around, so I always toss it, but I appreciate the thought.

I don't understand your logic.  Please explain how your answer lends support to either side of the issue.

Thanks.

Maybe your answer is correct for some situations but as I explained, her friend (another agency owner) knows me for 10 years and vouched for me.  The agency that requires my name already admitted that I was vouched for by her personal friend and yet she won't budge on the last name requirement.

I moved on and I am moving on from this thread.  Thanks for everyone's input.

I think it's about going after bad clients but I think that upon a bust, it's the good clients that get their lives ruined.

Your answer makes the most sense to me.  I can respect that and I still won't risk giving my last name when required because I won't risk it for the reasons I stated about the possibility of a bust.

Thanks again.

Because if you do something inappropriate they have a name & last name to report to LE

perhaps their girl check ID at meeting and if you have provided a fake one they probably will walk away...

what if she ask your ID?? do you have a fake one with your cousin dog name...lol

Some agency girls check ID upon arrival....I guess that agency do the same.

We give our full name to a lot of people on a daily basis...most of them we do not know(stores, customer services, etc etc) what's the big deal??

You can always tell her that you came to the room first to check her out and that the actual client with that name is waiting in the car for your OK.

Rover?  Spot?

That if someone isn't fully safe and screening with you they were not with the guys before you.

Now lets say that the guy before you did something serious to her, you wouldn't want to be the one to show up and find this situation in your hands, or be the Name and # next on her list for LE when they find the situation.

I understand your concerns with not wanting to get busted but the ladies have those same concerns and more. A study shown that women brunt over 80% of the risk in this business. Arrested and prosecuted 80% more then men are. hurt raped and or murdered nearly 98% more then clients are. So who do you think has more reason to be concerned for safety and freedom?

Everyone is concerned about this, the women do to also have families to worry about other careers, I know if word got out what I do in my day job I would be done for, no one would ever hire me again, so making 100% sure I am safe and my freedom is secure.

The trick to this is to find someone with a great reputation and smart enough to not keep the info after you have met. I know any info I get is never stored on my computer or phone (online file only in a secure location) and once I have seen you, all I keep is First name Last Initial and email address. Again still never on any hard drive. It can be a pain in the ass from time to time but I never Save my passwords to any of my accounts that relate to this, and I use mobile browsers. What can I say I am Anal about my Safety and privacy.

Sorry for the rant...

If there was a bust then you know what?  Lives get ruined when names get out.

You say that I should find someone who doesn't keep the info after we've met.  Yes, great.  Then how does that provider find the bad client after something goes wrong?

I don't think it works both ways.  If you want to have the client's name for reasons of reporting a problem to LE if there's violence or theft then you would have to keep the record of his name.  Correct?

So true! No matter how many glowing references you have, if you're on a sexual predator list or have a violent crime on your record I, for one, wouldn't see you.

If you have a fairly common name, or do a search of yourself and someone else with your name is listed, you may want to give some verifiable info to distinguish yourself from that.... person, such as birthdate, middle name or initial, etc. and be prepared to show your ID to back it up upon meeting.  

Huah? like I said if something went wrong then she has the info, she doesn't delete after she screened you but after you left and everything was hunky dory. She can still reference you for later but it is still up to that next provider to screen you properly too.

The chances of someone getting busted and their List being used is Highly unlikely unless you are a public figure, no one gives a rats ass about you? including LE, LE cannot bust you after the fact, the worst case scenario they will call you up to scare you into testifying against the lady. They will use your fear of being "Found out" against you but they cant do shit to you, they have to catch you in the act and any Outing can lead to you suing them if all they have is a name and #, for all they know a co-worker of yours used your info to see her. The best thing for you in that situation is keep your trap shut and call their bluff. But like I said the chances of her being hurt are far greater then you receiving a call after the fact.

There are probably more than a few good reasons, but the most important is "because that is MY choice." Just as it is yours to pass and move on.

However, do not think that withholding your last name means that they do not have it

I realize that you discard the info after the meeting went well.  That's great.  

However, some of the people posting on this thread feel that the ID of the client should be kept for use if something goes wrong in future dates.  A couple of posters talk about the client that is great for years and then snaps.  In that case you will need his info to find him or report him.

What I am saying is that if you want the ID at the beginning so that you feel safe, then you should have it going forward for the reasons that people here have pointed out.

But one poster below, LuckyIrishPrick, really answered well.  His post points out the the flaw in all of this, both sides of the provider-client relationship.

Anyway,  thanks for your answers and your good sense.  I've enjoyed discussing this issue with everyone.

When stalkers stalk and harass as well and when men get physically violent with the women they see in this profession as well.

Yes, I asked because I didn't understand why it was a strict requirement and what would be gained by having it especially since she was already reassured by her good friend.

And yes, I have moved on.  But the discussion was enlightening.

why encourage someone to be dishonest and shady, simply because that is the way you personally choose to conduct yourself in this hobby? it's things like this that sully this whole thing for me, and make me want to distance myself more and more from the "hobby" community. all the lies and deception, the woeful lack of honor or character...it makes what we all do seem dirty and disgusting, vile and classless.

now i can completely understand a particular man not wishing to reveal his true identity to a stranger...but no need to be a jerk about it and make up false identities, just be upfront that you will not be revealing that information. move on to someone else, because trust me, there will ALWAYS be someone who is more than comfortable with whatever info you are willing to provide.

LIP you are correct in that no screening system is foolproof or 100% sure, but you can get pretty danged close. i am an independent provider, and i DO keep records of every client i have ever seen...and even of some i've rejected and never seen, just in case they attempt to contact me again through an alias. i ask for full names and legitimate phone numbers, and i have my ways of verifying this information. as someone else wisely noted, just because someone isn't willing to volunteer their full name, doesn't mean that i may not already have it. there are ways, but it's important to me that the information is voluntarily given. it's an indication of character among other things. when i learn someone has given me false information i reject them outright. it does not matter how nice they may be, how well our email or phone exchanges have come along so far. at that point, they have lost me.

(whomever mentioned license plates also makes a good point...they have been an invaluable tool for me)



-- Modified on 10/11/2010 2:08:46 PM

You don't have to be a sports figure or a politician to want to protect your name.

There are plenty of other valid reasons to be very discreet when participating in the hobby.

There is no full proof way of screening, but to be honest I will feel uneasy with a guy hesitant of giving me his info makes me feel like he is up to something. More so then a guy who understands and is forth coming. Your hesitation send shivers up my spine telling my gut to NO GO. Same thing with finding out you used a fake name and yes we do find out part of the work verification to. My instincts are my # 1 screening tool.

A girl has to do as much or as little as she is comfortable with, the same for the gents, there are plenty of women who don't screen as there are plenty of gents who understand the importance of it.

I understand the ladies need to keep the info they cant possible remember all the info on men, Me I have an excellent memory. it why why I delete most info. This is what my saved info looks like:


John S.  sexyman@sexy man.com 06-14-08
I can remember with just the Initial his last name and the date is the day I saw him.

I'm sure that there will be other instances of providers refusing to see me without my last name.  But this is a first for me due to the extensiveness of the references that I can provide.  

After the almost 20 years of having providers vouch for me, this is the first time that a last name was insisted upon without any compromise.

The shivers up your spine are necessary for you to tune into but if you read my reviews, talked with other providers that know me, and met me you would feel very differently I'm confident.

My refusal to divulge info is only to preserve my anonymity if something went wrong and the records became public.  That would be devastating to my life in several ways.

Thanks again.

Hmmm...gotta question for this.  I also am looking to develop actual relationships with a real woman...why can't we get your full names?  It is illegal on both sides of the fence.  Why must we divulge full info when it does not exist at all on the other side?  I know some women will say "You don't have to meet me then...", but I think my question is valid regardless.

Well, Lilli, if everything you say is true, then you do not live in the same world as me or 99.9% of the rest of us here. In fact, you are so far removed from our reality I almost have to scratch my head as to what you're doing here, but that's your prerogative.  

Wanting "a certain fledgling intimacy" and asking for info "far beyond" names and what can be obtained via internet, followed by months of courting you before even booking a date? Yeah, uh, that is traditional civ dating, from a generation or two before me I might add, and if we wanted to go through all that, we wouldn't be here.  

Great if that works for you. Quite a niche you have for yourself. I have a hard time picturing a guy who would bother with all that when he could just date a civ with far less pretense and risk, and a genuinely exclusive romance to boot, but if you're in business they must exist. Nice.

But you can't apply it to the way the majority of us do things, it's not even in the ballpark.

And if you want to compare the risks of clients vs providers go ahead. The supposed inequity there is a matter of perception skewed by whose ever shoes you happen to be standing in. Everyone looks out for numero uno first. I expect every woman I see to play it that way because I KNOW they will, and they should expect no less in return.  

The "lies and deception" in this game are shared mutually, go well beyond the screening process, and are understood to be neccessary. We're talking about two complete strangers sharing intimacy, with at least one party potentially lacking any real attraction, the other party pretending not to know it, one or both unsure of their safety on multiple levels, and possibly both lacking any chemistry - it's not exactly something that comes naturally nor is it a realistic expectation outside of P4P - thus the term fantasy. Call fantasy a lie if you will, it is, but that's the core of this business. It's all a great big fucking lie.

So tell me I'm dispicable for not divulging my true name. Ok then. But when I show up, I will be clean, I will have the proper donation, I will give her every bit of respect she gives me, and nothing that isn't mutually enjoyed, or at a bare minimum mutually acceptable, is going to happen. How dispicable of me. At the end of the day, you'd be hard pressed to find a provider who is not content with that.  

Well, except for you, whatever you are. Your case sounds more like swinging with sugar daddies than providing. Bravo.

You'd find out? How? Oh, let me guess, "you have ways", yeah that's getting redundant. No use in arguing that point, I'm sure you're a regular  P.I., congrats.  

According to your website, Date-Check or RS2K would get me in the door. Or I could just give you reputable and easily verifiable references, which are legit by the way, minus the fact that none of them know my real name - they didn't need to. And surprisingy, even without that little tid bit of information they are alive and well, didn't get ripped off, and would have nothing bad to say about me (other than I'm fat, loud, ugly, have a little dick, can't fuck and worst of all...secretly Italian! - hey, nobody's perfect ) Either way.

But I digress.

Never did I say taking precautons is not valuable. In fact I very deliberately said they were - check further down the thread. I only stated that many of you over estimate their effectiveness - in a nutshell, along with pointing out the OP's original statement, that the use of a last name is well, no use at all for your safety, but potentially detrimental to ours.

Tit for tat? Websites (heresay from the mouth of a salesperson), a ladies "history" (WTF is that?), reviews, back channel, and "many other things" (like what?)...ok, thanks for listing off a bunch of shit that all equates to the exact same information.

All I know about you is what a bunch of other dudes tell me, which is exactly what you'd know about me by checking my references. Yes, I have the advantage of some blurred out pictures, whatever good that does me in the interest of protecting my privacy, eh, none.

I am not disregarding a ladies safety when jumping over her hoops because the very thing she is trying to potentially protect herself from is me, and I obviously know my own intentions, don't ya think? Come again?

In most instances there is no need for any crativity on my part. For most, references are enough, which I have plenty of.    

Don't take shit so personally. Screen as hard as you want to, lady, no one suggested you shouldn't.    

 

 

Well said... I have one thing to add:

While references or verifications sites are OK for incalls, there are more than a few ladies, mostly in the mid/higher brackets, that will require a full name before committing to an outcall to your hotel.

Two reasons: 1) They will call the hotel to verify you are actually staying there. "May I have Mr. XYZ in room 1602, please?"  This keeps them from wasting their time.  One of my ATFs said she had to learn this the hard way.

2). If you visit DC and stay in some of the higher end hotels, you may have the misfortune of sharing space with some world dignitary which will increase the security.  I have had my "friends" stopped in the lobby and asked who they are their to see.  "Why, I am a here to see Mr. XYZ in room 1602." A quick check of a hand held device (or nothing) and she is waived through... or walked to the elevator and key carded to the floor (nice touch my knowing staff).

Water finds its own level and so does the hobby.  Do so with those who match your risk matrix.  Don't complain, move on.

LIP,

trust me, you, nor anyone else, could not "breeze past" my screening. you are correct in that having "just" a last name isn't going to get you very far. the information i gather on potential clients goes far beyond full legal names, and is not limited to what can be obtained through the internet. you are quite wrong in that i do NOT meet with strangers in this hobby...a certain comfort level, a certain fledgling intimacy, must be developed between myself and a particular gent before i will even consider a possible meeting. i do not ask for stats, verify, then agree to hook up. after weeding out those who aren't even worth consideration (i.e. those looking for a wham bam, those with extensive hobby experience, those who do not meet age or other requirements, etc.), i verify the stats given then proceed with what is usually a very lengthy getting-to-know-you process (from a couple weeks to a couple months or longer), which more than 85% of the time results in my rejecting someone as a client due to compatibility or chemistry issues. i have no interest in meeting someone who wishes to see me for "leisure time," and such gentleman are very easily and quickly weeded out.

so i do believe the combination of my screening methods, motivations for being in the "hobby," and the particular type of men i actually see (and more specifically, the relationships i develop with them), does keep me relatively safe. but of course, tragedy could befall anyone, that is part of the risk of actually living life as opposed to being a spectator on the sidelines.

for me honesty and authenticity IS a moral issue. i do not engage in unethical or classless behavior. as for mainstream society's opinion of providers, that is not my value system. i am "out" publicly as a submissive woman, as a slave, and as sexually polygamous...and accept the personal attacks, ostracization, and closed doors which have resulted from this. if it were not illegal and therefore threatening to my family, i would be "out" to the world as a provider as world...instead it is kept to close friends and some open-minded family. but the point is, i will not participate in anything that will leave me feeling dishonorable, false, or dirty.

as for the sharing of legal names going both ways, to that i say, the idea that a client has as much to risk as a provider is truly absurd. but even with that, i am honest. i plainly state to clients that lilli is not my real name, but rather a name i love and chose for myself...no shadows and mirrors there. i will plainly state that i cannot share a full legal name for my family's (esp. Husband's) sake, but most longtime friends will learn my legal first name. and far beyond a name, i share myself...my history, my points of view, my core values and beliefs, the minutia of my everyday life. this is far more than the overwhelming majority of hobbyists wish to know about any provider, so is yet another method by which i find the men with whom i'm most compatible (and most safe).

hey, you are certainly entitled to share only what makes you comfortable, in fact i would encourage you to stick to your comfort zones. what i find despicable is the fact that you would lie and deceive someone rather than simply move on to someone with a more compatible system...and that you actually encourage other men to do the same.

also, you seem to be stuck on the idea that this is all about legal safety...about covering our bums in case something goes down, or being able to "pay back" someone who's wronged us. those aren't risks i wish to even be a part of my world. yes of course i want to remain safe, but much more importantly i want to know the man with whom i'm sharing my time and body. i want to know his real name and that he is honest enough to give it, i want to know the exact nature of the problem or void in his life that brought him to me in the first place, i want to know about his everyday life and his view of the world around him. i want to know if he loves his wife, how he feels about his children, his satisfaction with work...just KNOW him. and yes, i want to know all of this long before he ever sets foot on my doorstep. my records do not serve as mere insurance...they are precious memories i want to savor into my crippled old age.

If you gave me the name of someone else in my screening (and it has happened) I would most likely find out, and long before you arrive at my door with your fake ID.  You are right that nothing is fool proof, however taking precautions is no less valuable.  (Otherwise, why use condoms - they're not 100% effective either.  Right?)

Look, it's not tit for tat here - you have websites, a ladies history, strings of reviews, back channel, and many other things to help ensure your safety.  All a lady has is her screening process.  If you don't like it - move on!  The total disrespect and disregard for a ladies safety that you display when faking your way through is reprehensible, and the main reason some ladies DO screen as hard as they do.

The risk to the client is still very great. As a client we are also meeting a stranger. Yes, in a hand to hand fight I would probably win against any provider that I have seen, but if you give her so much as a pocket knife the odds flip in her favor, let alone a gun. In the city I live in the bust more johns than hos. And lets not even get into the risk of outing or blackmail. I have seen 15 ladies in the hobby I was robbed by one. The risk involved is great on both sides an who is risking more depends on what each has to lose. As far as LE goes your husband is likely risking the most. I do give my full name as I have little to fear from being outed or blackmailed, but I as a client with less to lose than most, still screen more than most ladies in this hobby do. The risks in this hobby cut both ways, always have always will. I find the dismissal of my safety by many ladies in this hobby disturbing to say the least. Since you husband knows about what you do the guys risk is likely higher than yours if his wife does not know. It is the truth, the provider is at greater risk for physical violence but things like devoice can be just as devastating if not more so.

Actually it does make your views on ethics and saftey less valid, because they don't apply to the mainstream of this business. And as we've already established, "ethics" under this context are not the same as those ethics we think of in mainstream society, where we are all nothing but sexual deviants anyway.

Where are ethics in a business that is illegal AND predicated on a lie to begin with? Whatever capacity in which they exist, they are certainly not conventional ethics.  

As I already said in my last post, the deceptiveness of "our" version of the hobby does not end at screening, and it is a two way street, in fact probably more so on the end of the provider whose job it is essentially, to lie. There is NO moral high ground in this business, it's all smoke and mirrors - deception - and it's supposed to be. Some of us see it as it is, others let themselves be fooled.

Anyone who says different is blowing smoke up your ass..er...doing what you do. You're the only one seems to think you're perched atop a high horse of morality here, easy when you're on the ouside looking in. Maybe this is too hard to fathom being that you are on something almost completely different.

Your notion that everything revolves around a girls safety is tainted by the fact that you can't place yourself in our shoes. We ALL need to protect our own interests, lack of a vagina not withstanding. You claim to understand this but still heavily skew your opinions in the other direction. I don't expect you to think any differently, being who you are. But don't talk to me about the client being focused on numero uno while leaving out the fact that every girl in the biz approaches things exactly the same way. Quid pro quo, lady. NEVER expect more in return than what you're willing to give, you'll be sadly disappointed.  

I am well aware of all stigma's and risks involved for the other party, and being aware of them doesn't have shit to do with how I go about it. I love women, prostitutes, nuns, mothers, daughters, bag ladies, whatever, I don't want harm to come to any of them, even the ones I have a strong distaste for.  

This fact keeps escaping you, so read more slowly this time - I do not "give a woman a false sense of comfort and security". Her sense of comfort and security - if she EVER truly has one doing this - is NOT false in my case. If it were false, that would suggest I am a threat to her, which I am not. Does this concept really require further elaboration?  

Side stepping a question which reveals more about myself than I want her to know is not putting her in harms way if I mean no harm, now is it. Somehow you're confusing me with someone who jumps her screening in order to gain access to her for malicious reasons. But which is truly dispicable, the methood used to see her or the act which the man commits against her? The story won't read, 'man outsmarts hookers screening.'

So see someone who asks for less info, you say? You've already forgotten the original point of this thread. We are talking about names. Who do you think is out here that doesn't ask for a name? Even the girl with basically no screening at all who got the dog's name - asked for a name. And I choose to use an alias, just as every girl I see does, and it's hardly uncommon for men. Sorry you can't see the forest because the trees are in your way.

There is no point to continuing this thread, we are not going to agree. You lack understanding about the nature of the mainstream part of this business because you don't partake in it, you have a utopic view of "ethics and morality" as it pertains to said mainstream for the same reason, and your opinions are heavily skewed toward the providers benefit - as I'd expect from an..uh...psuedo-provider/whatever you wanna call yourself.

Here's what I know. I see providers, and I do so while giving them zero information that can be later used against me either by them or by overzealous vice cops. They are no worse off for it, in fact, better, they gained my business, which is why they are here. I can get a positive reference from any of them. There have been NO complaints from THEM - only from you. And since I'd never subject myself to weeks and months of trying to win the affection of a paid pro just to book a date, I don't really need to worry about that.    

Hi SolaLove,

I agree with your primary thrust -- that a guy using fake identity and encouraging others to do so is ethically problematic. As far as I am concerned; I only see women with discernible ethics anyway and if I have a problem with a particular woman knowing my name, then I shouldn't be getting naked with her to start with.

But I disagree to some extent with your notion that because providers have websites, reviews and backchannel, a hobbyist's safety is assured in a process with extreme differences in levels of personal disclosure.

Anybody can set up a provider website, usually for free. I even set one up for my chickens once as a spoof and demonstration site to help a local lady learn how to use escortsite features. Really. The sites are offshore, anonymous and usually effectively untraceable for anything short of a murder. Even those hosted domestically are usually concealed via proxy registration that is only penetrable via search warrant/LE involvement. The fact that someone has set up an anonymous and untraceable website speaks AGAINST their credibility, not for it. When I do a whois lookup on a provider's domain and it returns her real name and address, THEN it will provide credibility. Until then it is just neutral information that could have been constructed by anyone.

Reviews do not tell me anything about how a woman handles sensitive personal information. MANY hobbyists, some very credible people, have reported that they have had unfavorable reviews yanked due to very highly-reviewed providers threatening to out them to their spouses. Thus, some of these high review numbers can be skewed by threats and are not necessarily meaningful in some cases. And even if they were meaningful, they only pertain to what happens during an actual session. The fact that a woman is a great french kisser doesn't necessarily reflect her trustworthiness outside of a session; NOR -- most importantly -- does it guarantee that her spouse, boyfriend, best buddy or other person doesn't have access to hobbyist information that could be disclosed if the relationship went south. How many providers who have boyfriends or other persons handle hobbyist screening information disclose that fact on their websites? None. So a hobbyist assumes unknown third-party risks of disclosure.

Furthermore, there is ample evidence that there is a population of providers out there who absolutely cannot be trusted with a hobbyist's personal information. Look no further than the National Blacklist. Look at the front page for your area. Look at the hobbyists whose real names and employers are now showing up in Google along with their status as hobbyists. NOW look at the reason they were outed. Yes, sometimes -- and quite appropriately -- for violence or theft. But 50% of the time it is for (unverified) NCNS or being a "timewaster" whatever that is. Can you IMAGINE the hue and cry if providers' real names were outed in a Googleable format for NCNS or time wasting? But my point is that you have objective evidence before your eyes that a goodly number of providers WILL, in fact, disclose personal information of hobbyists for things that may merit being on a personal DNS but certainly do not justify outing. This problem is pervasive enough that hobbyists who are reticient to disclose personal information have a rational basis for their concern.

Then there is the backchannel, but it is of limited utility. When so many reviews have been yanked due to threat of personal disclosure; nobody knows who the right guy is to ping to find out if a given provider issues such threats. Sure, I get pings from hobbyists about providers I have reviewed; but how is anyone to know to ping me over a provider who showed up at my house and I didn't review? (That's hypothetical, not real, thankfully.) And guys like me who try to keep their sex-partner count down and don't review much don't have access to the RO boards. So the utility is far from ubiquitous.

So I do not believe that the fact provider's have anonymously registered offshore untraceable websites, reviews about their sexual skills and that a backchannel exists sufficiently justifies the differential in personal disclosure.

Furthermore, if I am to believe what some providers post; most hobbyists are 100 lbs overweight, get winded on their way to the incall, smoke 3 packs of unfiltered camels daily, are too stupid to wash their ass and are on the verge of a major coronary. It would seem that the major physical risk most of them pose would be getting out of the way so the provider isn't crushed when she yells "boo" and has the hobbyist collapse from a heart attack. (The preceding paragraph isn't intended seriously, it is tongue-in-cheek humor.)

In my opinion, the only thing that can justify that differential in disclosure for ME is my personal confidence in the particular individual provider's ethics. That is why ethics is the single most important and overriding factor that I analyze pertaining to a provider and everything else takes a back seat. I don't see a generic "provider." A generic provider is just like a generic hobbyist -- an ethical crapshoot and provably risky as hell. But an INDIVIDUAL provider, who is a distinct and unique human being complete with her own character and ethics; is NOT an ethical crapshoot and so the differential in disclosure can be justified.

To a certain extent, we all view the world through eyes that use ourselves as a baseline. To me, it is unimaginable that anyone would hurt or steal from a provider -- simply because I'd never do it myself. Yet it happens, and so the screening that I believe is superfluous and needlessly invasive when applied to me is clearly necessary overall.

Similarly, it is unimaginable to you that a provider would misuse hobbyist information or make it available to third parties because you'd never do it yourself. Yet, some providers DO misuse the information, and hence hobbyists are wise to be selective about what they reveal and to whom.

Because humans tend to evaluate risks as being higher than they actually are (which is a good survival trait), it is no surprise that a provider would require a guy with 80 reviews PLUS a thumbs up from the provider's personal friend to reveal information that really isn't needed for her ACTUAL safety in that case. Likewise, it is no surprise that a hobbyist might have real concerns about revealing that data, even to a lady with stellar ethics who poses no ACTUAL risk of inappropriate disclosure.

Because the volume and speed of the hobby doesn't typically lend itself well to a very careful and considered approach; there will be overkill on both sides with "one size fits all" precautions.

I DO reveal my personal data; but only to women whose character as individuals -- not as "providers" -- has passed muster.

Not necessarily luv. One cannot always trust a referral. You also have to trust your gut instincts and have at least another form of back up as a check.

Now if I get a referral from at least 3 providers that have webiste and have reviews on different boards.... I will by pass a full name depending on my rapport with the person.

My personal preference is different than others, and thats what makes me unique.

no question about it, but i don't believe that makes my views on ethics, or safety, any less valid. and to be clear, i did not say you were despicable for not providing your legal name. what i find despicable is your providing a false identity in order to see providers who require more information than you are willing to share. the solution for you would be very simple...see providers with different requirements. as you have mentioned yourself, there are many who don't care and don't want to know. but instead, you prefer to give a woman a false sense of comfort and security, in order to get what you want at whatever cost. that is not ethical behavior.

the risks do cut both ways in this business, but are weighed quite a bit more heavily on the side of the provider. beyond the obvious risks to physical safety (rape, grievous injury, death), beyond the far greater legal risks, the social stigma faced by a woman who has chosen of her own free will to give of herself this way is deep-seated and ugly. mainstream society views a man who sees escorts as someone unable to control their natural urges...but it is felt that any woman choosing this is acting directly against her nature...surely, there is something wrong with her. will the schoolteacher who escorts on the side, once busted, ever be able to teach again...ANYwhere? can she ever walk down the streets of her community again with a scarlet letter?

of course, the client focused on "numero uno" as you put it does not consider these things. and that's certainly his prerogative. it is all the more reason why he should stick to those providers who require no more information than he is willing to give.

as for me, you have things quite wrong. i do not engage in "swinging with sugar daddies," and my potential clients do not court me. LOL! we get to know one another so that compatibility and chemistry can be determined...if it doesn't feel right to either of us, there is no reason to go forward. and because my primary goal in all of this is to truly SERVE men who are in need of what i can provide...compassion, intimacy, understanding, acceptance, etc...it is quite critical that i know as much as possible about someone and the nature of their needs. if the way i provide could be likened to anything, it would be holistic therapy with the potential for true friendship. quite a bit more talking and life problem-solving goes on between my clients and i than fucking. obviously, that's not something you need, and hurray to you for that.

The agency has their rules and you have yours, if the two don't jib then just move on

"A generic provider is just like a generic hobbyist -- an ethical crapshoot and provably risky as hell. But an INDIVIDUAL provider, who is a distinct and unique human being complete with her own character and ethics; is NOT an ethical crapshoot and so the differential in disclosure can be justified."

applied to potential clients, this sums up my feelings exactly...and keeps me not only feeling safe, but genuinely good about engaging in this.

I asked them to remove me from their daily email schedule and I have moved on completely.

Given the circumstances (that I was given a thumbs up by her personal friend-another agency owner), I can only conclude that she has rules that are unbendable under any circumstances and that she feels that even her friend's experience with me (as a long time client) is not good enough to give her comfort to accept me as a client.

It's fine.  I lose the privilege to see her providers and that's acceptable to me because I still maintain my anonymity if her agency gets busted and her client list gets 'outed'.

She has her rules, I have my rules, and "never the twain shall meet."

No need to justify it either. It's your right and you should be true to yourself.

I stand by my comment. Last name does not guarantee anything. Actually, the most dangerous of all men, will have that base completely covered. It's just your feelings. But those are important.

I am as safe as a hobbyist gets. No provider has ever had the name on my birth certificate. If they did, they would find out nothing of value to them. However, they would be in the position to ruin me, and possibly make my life hell.

I know the name you give me is fake. You get the same in return.

One of my local faves who I have a fondness for does no 'screening.' Yes that's right, no screening. Her bad experiences don't exceed what I read by ladies on this board who screen heavily.

It's just the way it is.


HalfHour

Once burned twice shy as I had a run in with a lady who was a hustler and a thief. I also use the provider blacklist sites to screen ladies. Because of my wife's job, I get to see who posted the blacklist and if a lady blacklisted someone for something stupid like a NCNS, I do not book with them. I have very little to fear from being outed as my wife is fine with me playing, about a half for my friends are involved in hobby themselves and already know, and even my father now knows. I still use it as a test of character as to many in hobby on both sides of the envelope are lacking in that area. Plus I back-channel through both hobbyists and providers, read all her reviews on multiple sites, Google her, read her site if she has one and every ad I find, reverse search her phone number and email, TinEye her pictures, OK her with my wife and sometimes even more before I contact a lady. Still I was somewhat outed by a careless provider friend who kept to much information on her phone and got busted. If I was hobbying behind my wifes back I would have been screwed and not in a good way. I only give out my personal data because the risk of being outed or blackmailed is much smaller than most. If it was not so even with as much effort as I put into screening I would not be as forth coming unless the lady gave her real full name as well. What is good for the goose is also good for the gander and vise-versa, I am often puzzled about how some ladies do not understand how risky it is for their clients as well as themselves. Anything that can happen to providers could also happen to us "johns" except pregnancy and I guess rape is not likely as well. Everyone needs to play within there personal comfort level and move on if someone else's does not match yours.

Men immediately go to the risk of blackmail or getting outted if a provider gets busted.

I don’t recall ever seeing a provider suggest that these risks do not exist. I’m sorry you got robbed. But as you point out yourself, you have a tremendous amount of information at your disposal to screen ladies before you see them.

What does a provider know about “you”?

It’s one thing to get robbed, blackmailed, or outted.  It is another entirely to be sexually assaulted or killed. There was a young provider murdered just last month in my area and, nobody knows who this guy is. And, sadly, this is not some kind of new or particularly rare occurrence.

Had this provider insisted on having this guys real name would she still be alive? Who knows? Maybe, like LIP, if asked to provide his real name for screening, he would have provided the name of his dog. And maybe she would have just trusted his “real name” was Fido, without verifying he was full of BS.

Maybe he would have moved on to provider who does not ask for (and actually verify) personally identifying info.

Maybe LE would have the guys name so they can find him---possibly stop him from doing this again. It’s not a perfect system. And screening cannot keep everyone safe all the time. But, it’s sure as hell better than just taking every guy at his word that he’s a nice guy, and having absolutely no way to find him later if he is not.

However, physical danger is not exclusive to the ladies. There has been cases of men being drugged, beaten and killed in the hobby. It does not happen to us as often as it happens to the ladies but it does happen. I too am extremely close to a provider that had a very bad experience with a client. She was drugged, raped, robbed, dumped in the desert, and left to die. Luckily she woke up and managed to get to a town a few miles away. She did not have enough information in her opinion to identify him and did not go to the police which I feel was a mistake. I do not deny you or anyone else has the right to get any information you need to stay safe. But I do get tired of the attitude that some ladies have that the guy is not also assuming a huge risk as well. It is true I would win a hand to hand fight with any provider I have ever seen but if you arm her with as little as a pocket knife the odd change real quickly in her favor. Everyone takes a big but varied risk when we play this game and the illegal nature of this adds to the risk greatly for all. I personally give my full name without being asked, references if asked for, my hobby email, my work information if asked for, my hobby phone number, willing to show driver's licence with certain information covered if requested, real age if asked, a brief description if requested, my TER handle if requested, a photo if asked, and possibly more in order for her it feel safe and screen me like I screened her. I would rather have the information I am willing to give than the information I have on most providers for with it I could find out anything I wanted. " What does a provider know about 'you'?" Quite a bit more than I know about them if they take the time to look it up. While I don't have as much to fear by being outed as many other men, risk of being outed is real for even me and far more common than physical violence against anyone in this hobby. Being outed is actually extremely common, and it would have happened to me but my wife already knew and I got some lucky breaks, because a provider friend was careless with my information. I in the end am saying a lady should ask for whatever information she feels she needs to be safe from both the law and the bad people out there and the client should only offer what he feels comfortable giving and nothing more if they do not match they both should move on. The risks are real on both sides and lives could be ruined if one makes a miss step on both sides. Everyone should screen, everyone should only offer the information they are comfortable being out there, and everyone should only see those they are comfortable with with the information available. If anyone does anything less they are being very foolish in my opinion. While providers do acknowledge the risk the men in this hobby face, they often seem to dismiss it as not as legitimate as their risks which is not the case. A outed man could easily lose their children as child custody laws in most state favor the mother to start with, not much as far as risk stacks up to that. It bothers me how quickly some ladies dismiss that risk by keeping detailed records on their clients and then wondering why some of us are wary of giving there full names and other identifiable personal information. If I was given the choice between being outed and losing my son or being beaten and raped, I personally would choose the later as the loss to my son would be to great and I could not allow that. Then again, I would not hobby at all if my wife did not encourage me to do so. And before anyone says I just don't understand there risk you ladies face, I do. First, my wife is a provider. Second, I have in my life experienced most of the risks in a non-hobby related instances for myself that you ladies face in the hobby. The risks faced by providers are very real and legitimate but so is the risks faced by the men who see them. Everyone must do what they must to stay safe but allow others to do the same without complaining about it.

Sola... Only one thing scares the crap out of me and that is a crazy provider who gets something up their ....
If a certain provider we know did not know the real name of pandora she would not have been outed. Giving our real info sets me up for an outing or blackmail! Not violent but probably more damaging!

Can't there be a better way? I do not ask for your real identity and the funny thing is even when I do know a providers real name I still call her by her Hobby name.  Its not important. I guess I am naive when I ask how many gents with good references commit an act of violence on a provider. An that is the only reason you need real info.

Yep, I "have my ways"... and I have squirreled out fakers before.  DC/RS2K have never been a full screening for me.  Neither have references, and I don't accept references from just anyone, there is a reason I require more than one.  I'm sure some yahoo's have worked their way around everything I have put in place.  Doesn't mean I'm going to stop doing everything I am doing.  You are right - many ladies do not screen well enough to be of much use.

My point is that with your references and the number of reference friendly ladies who will see you on that alone, why go out of your way to intentionally work around a ladies efforts to stay safe if she requires your real name?  It IS disregarding a ladies safety when you play games with her screening.  Just see someone else.  The disrespect of such actions makes me utterly nauseous.  To take it to the extreme, if I consent to fuck you, and you are someone else pretending to be you... we are having non-consensual sex, consent given under false pretenses.  Anyone who would do that can (and should) go fuck themselves.

.02

A professional will rarely throw her livelihood and career under the bus to commit a felony such as blackmail.  However, there are crazy ladies.  Yep!  It has happened.  Statistically though, the risk is on us.  The amount of violence, arrests, children lost in custody... etc.  We also get set up for outing and blackmail.  You have no risks that we do not have.  And I'm sorry, the risk of being gang raped at gun point or murdered is a more serious consideration than your "right" to fuck around with impunity.  You really believe that if you are blackmailed it is more damaging than violence?!  Please, tell me I don't need to pull out the soapbox.


The client has many avenues in which to research in order to help ensure their safety, all a lady has is her screening.

It is absolutely within your right (and responsibility!) to access your risk, to do your homework around who you meet, and to only give what you are comfortable providing in the screening process.  Some people mitigate their risk by giving this information to ONE entity - RS2K or Date-Check, for example; and using that as a buffer between the maybe dozens of ladies that they see.  Some guys see ladies who will accept references in lieu of personal information.  Some guys like to gamble with ladies who do not screen at all.  Each to their own!  My response was over the suggestion of giving fake name and ID instead of simply moving along to a provider who only asks what you are comfortable giving.  Reprehensible!

You are naive when you think gents with references are safe.  There are many gents whose M.O. is to secure good references, and use those to cause problems.  There are others who are good clients for a while, then go bad.  

seriously Sola, best post ever.