This is a warning abouct Nana Plaza in Bangkok.  Last month I decided to walk through Nana Plaza to check it out. I had walked through about 8 months earlier with no problems.  This time, the young men hired to guide single men into some of the establishments, have gotten more physical.  I walked in and moved to the left to circle in a clockwise manner as I usually do. I walked through a group of guys who were grabbing me and trying to get me into their bar. My feeling is that if they need guys to guide you into a bar, the women are not worth seeing. If they were hot, the women would be out there. Anyway, I walked through the first group of guys, and the second group was even more physical, they pointed to the right and actually reached around my waist with their left hands, actually pulling me into the bar. I resisted one guy who was about 5'11" and pushed away from him. As I broke free, I was sucker punched on the left side of my head near the temple, and kicked on my left hip. I turned around and was smashed in the face. I was dazed, so I looked at this guy bouncing around at the entrance of the bar, I dove at his feet, and that is the last thing I remember, until I work up in a Bangkok hospital a day later. Apparently, all of his buddies took turns kicking me after I successfully took him to the ground. I was in the hospital for about three days with a major concussion, and many hemotomas throughout my body.  The hit to my left hip took about three and a half weeks to go away. The doctors surmised that it had to have been done by steel toe shoes. Here is my advice. If you see guys ahead of you at Nana Plaza trying to guide you into a bar, turn around and walk the other way.  A single guy doesn't have a chance.  As far as I know from my research on the subject, only individual guys have been attacked.  When I contacted my hotel, the front desk manager told me that I was the 4th guy attacked from the hotel in the last few weeks. Unfortunately, for me, I was the only one hospitalized.  It isn't happening only in Nana Plaza; I talked to a
Thai, who looks like an Indian, on the plane and he told me he had the same problem on the street next to a lady bar. Only when he spoke Thai and begged them to let him pass did they let him go. Beware, Beware, Beware;

Do you realise that many/most girls who work in the sex industry in Thailand are not doing it from choice?  Do you even care?

Many do it because they have few other realistic alternatives to make money for their families.  Some are sold into it.  I know this for a fact.  They are not like providers in the US or UK who make a conscious choice to do it.

Therefore, the abuse you suffered, although it’s not good, pales in comparison to the abuse these girls suffer on a daily basis.   Any customer of these girls is perpetuating abuse.

Obviously your assualt was wrong and there was no justification for it.  Thankfully you are on the mend. But these women (and children) are constantly being exploited and abused.  

No intended preaching on my part dude and I'll be the first to admit that I have no idea how a hobbyist could find an adult provider there who is engaging in her livlihood completely of her own volition.  But your own words vividly depicted a very dark scene that surely cloaked abuse and exploitation.

In the absence of doing due dilligence to learn how to find free-willed providers there, your advice should not be to beware but instead to  stay away...

I am not asking for sympathy. This is my first post and it was only a warning for others thinking of going there. I was checking the place out, because I had read so much about it. I didn't want to go into any of the bars; I was sightseeing. If I agreed to go in they wouldn't have assaulted me. And yes I am aware of the exploited and abused young girls there. My post was only to warn people to "stay away," unless they want Thai kick boxers tatooing their bodies with a tag team attack. Again, I am not asking for sympathy, and  I believe I was stupid for going there. I just think people should know how dangerous it can be.

...that the families of these pre-teen girls are usually told the girls are being taken off to a waitress job, sold off and end up in brothels. It is unconscionable what happens in that part of the world. Nobody should ever go for this business in Thailand. The original poster got off a lot luckier than those girls.

It't not just a problem in Thailand.  There have been several well documented stories (most recently in the San Fran Chronicle 8 or 9 months ago) about Korean girls being bamboozled into the sex trade in the US.  Think about it next time you visit an AMP. . .

Most of the points made strike me as well taken and true, but like most things the situation is more complicated.  First, all forms of coercion, trafficking and sex slavery are disgraceful and there must be more effective ways to control it. But the sordid behavior described is not just a product of southeast asia -- there is plenty of sex slavery and trafficking right here in the US, and if we weren't a magnet it wouldn't occur here, just as is the case with narcotics traffic.  
I lived in Thailand for four years and agree with the previous comments, except that NOT ALL providers are coerced.  But how to distinguish one from the other is impossible.  Those who are sure they know should of course refrain from patronizing the Thai and other foreign providers listed in American cities in TER, to be consistent.  That will never happen.

Please excuse the length of this post.

The kind of sex slavery you describe certainly exists in Thailand, just as it does to a lesser extent in the U.S. and probably the U.K. too.  It is despicable and people who support it should be roundly condemned.

But the girls who work the bars and go-gos at Nana Entertainment Plaza, Soi Cowboy and Patpong in Bangkok and the girls who work the bars and go-gos in Pattaya – are not part of this sex slavery. They are there because they choose to be. They are in it for essentially the same reason providers are in it in the U.S. and U.K. – it represents their best opportunity to make a lot of money. They could choose to be shop girls or work their parents’ farms in the poor Isaan province, but they choose to work as providers. They come and go as they please, they refuse men they don’t like, and frequently leave one establishment in favor of another. Many of them are students, many send money to their parents in the poverty-stricken Isaan district, and a few become wealthy enough to buy farms and support their parents and extended families. When they go home to visit their villages, they are treated like movie stars because in the eyes of the villagers, they have Bangkok clothes, manners, sophistication and glamour. A few marry foreigners and ex-pats from American and Europe.

Some examples from my personal experience:

Taa (“Thai word for ‘eye’”) was 24 years old in 2000 when I met her at the Voodoo Lounge, a go-go in the Nana Entertainment Plaza. She was with me for two days and nights. We went dancing both nights at a Thai cultural center – her idea. The first night, I was the only farang among about 300 Thais. At the hotel in the morning, her cell phone rang, and I kept gleefully quiet while she carried on a long conversation with a guy in the Netherlands who regularly sent her money so she wouldn’t have to sell her body while she waited for him to come back and be with her again.  The second night, we bought four dozen roses from a street vendor for about $5 total and gave them one at a time to the singers and dancers as they performed on stage. She gave me two of the most intense orgasms I have ever experienced.

Mani worked at Happy Go-Go in Pattaya in 2004. She was 29 years old. We spent a week together. She was a sleep-in tour guide, showing me the sights, visiting the Big Buddha on the hill, and protecting me from Thai vendors who wanted overcharge me because I was a “rich” foreigner. One day, she took me home – traveling in public tuk-tuks and riding on the backs of motorbikes – and introduced me to her family. I squatted on the floor, sipped Mekong whiskey and played with her baby, while she and her aunt prepared a special meal of Lao food, just for me.

Ploy was 19 in 2004 when I met her in the parking lot of the Nana Hotel, just across the street from the Nana Entertainment Plaza. She was a freelancer. I was with her three times over two weeks, the last time for four days. We went dancing at the Angel Disco with her friends. One night she couldn’t be with me long-time because she and a group of girlfriends were going to Pattaya to work a party. She became another sleep-in tour guide. I took her and a girlfriend on a tour of the Grand Palace. We rode cabs all over Bangkok. When the crowd pressed in on us at the Patpong Night Market, a place notorious for its pickpockets, she took my wallet from my back pocket and shoved it into my front pocket.

Kai was 30 in 2000 when I met her at Flash Go-go in Phuket. She was my first sleep-in tour guide. We rented a motorbike, and I sat on the back and hugged her while she rode us all over the island and showed me the sites.  During our three days together, we saw shows, went dancing and took a boat trip to Koh Phi Phi, a tropical island with the clearest blue lagoons I have ever seen.

None of these young women was particularly high-end. They are fairly typical of the providers who work the bars and go-gos in Bangkok, Pattaya and Patong Beach on Phuket. The cost was 2,000 baht a day (about $50) plus meals, entertainment and incidentals for the go-go dancers and 1,500 baht a day (a little less than $40) for Ploy, the freelancer. I paid more than the market rate for Ploy’s time, but I liked her.

There are a number of sources – fiction and non-fiction – that give accurate pictures of Thai bargirls and their lives. An excellent one is “Patpong Sisters” by Cleo Odzer. It is a book-length telling personal story behind the research Odzer did for her Ph.D. in anthropology.  She views the ladies who work Bangkok’s bars and go-gos as daring young female entrepreneurs who are stepping beyond the social values of their culture.

Other good sources include “Hello My Big Big Honey” by Dave Walker and Richard S. Ehrlich and the delightfully insightful novels of John Burdett: “Bangkok Eight”, “Bangkok Tattoo” and “Bangkok Ghosts.”

Especially at my age, "some" men don't understand that women from other -- possibly third-world countries --  are victims who are forced to prostitute themselves or see no other avenue but slavery because of family, economics or feel they have no where else to turn. Then Americans, other ignorant or non-caring men from Europe and other parts of the world act so proud when they get a great deal, not realizing the consequences of their actions. The way men act in other countries and then bitch about the services (either there because they were ripped off or here in the U.S because prices are higher) are not helping the abuse and the slave trade. It disgusts me! It's always easier for men to assume they're just there giving them money to feed their families and be able to get their rocks off cheaply. Not always true, guys. You may be contribulting to the torturous slave market. Yes, some women have free reign to choose, but really what are their options? Think like that world. How about buying their time, holding them, giving them money for food and buying their kids some toys (cheap in some of these countries) and give them good beddding to sleep on and clean water to bathe their children in and drink from? Perhaps a little money toward educating their children. If you're going to throw money away on sex, at least help these women you think you are servicing by just having a blowjob or sex with them. Remember, they are human beings, too.

How sad. However, I feel also for the men who go to these places assuming that all these foreign women are happy to be giving these services and expect cheap donations for what? A scared and possibly beaten lady all in the name of the "hobby," or what we call it in the United States: Sold into slavery because their families are starving. If you really want to help out a lady there, give her and her family rent and buy them food, then have a great time with the provider without the pimp. That's all . . . point made.

Some guys still don't get it. Some women (and possibly her children at home) will always pay for it severely in the long run. Now this is abuse and prostitution in the worst kind. Don't kid yourself, guys!

Not feeing like giving hugs to these guys,
Ciara

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It could be because putting the girls out there to do it risks having them try to run away.  

Sorry you went through such a terrible beating, and I'm glad you got away with your life.  

Any establishment in the rape-slavery industry is going to be savage in other ways too.

You're bartering for women in the slave industry to get cheap sex. That's sick. I'm sorry.



-- Modified on 7/23/2007 11:34:22 PM

Nor do I approve of it. I understand it and I'm sickened by it.  Physically, I imagine, the sex with that arrangement would be pretty awful.  Main reason is psychological pleasure from sex mixed with feelings of overwhelming dominance. That could turn some guys on so much that the actual sensations of the physical sex don't have to be much to get them off.  For many, it's getting turned on by rape.  

It might not even involve physical sex. I can imagine where for some guys, just being in that dominant a position is pleasurable enough, they might then feel magnanimous about not having sex with her.  Then he'll fantasize about it afterward.    

I am deeply revolted by it. I was assuming that he was uninformed of what he was dealing with, especially after he thought the ladies would be the guides. On that, perhaps I'm totally wrong. He seemed to write about it as though unaware of the real situation.    

One should be on the alert for this Stateside. If there's an AMP in your area, and the population of the rest of the city is about .3 percent Asian, you better bet that it's slavery.  

Asian Red Light Districts are not in my vacation plans.  I find even Tijuana to be very disturbing.

A guy walking down the street looking where to visit doesn't know if the women in there are sex slaves or not. He cannout rightfully be blamed for being beaten up by thugs.

your pseudo-dissertation of the sex industry in Thailand? Gee, what a detailed travelogue you've put together. This will surely get us all to hop on the next plane to Pattaya.

I like that bit about "going home to her Laotian family and squatting on the floor" while playing with her little baby." What a picture of a healthy family. Do you think they were inviting you because you had something brilliant to say in Laotian? Wake up dude! You were there because you are a walking cash machine, and nothing else.

It's particularly interesting that this woman comes from Laos. I've got some stats for you. The stats are old, but they're not changing, only becoming worse: In 1996, there were more than 200,000 children from Burma, Laos and Cambodia who had been trafficked into Thailand for prostitution. There are at least 50,000 Burmese and Laotian girls working in Thailand as prostitutes at any one time. In 2001, some 230,000 minors between the ages of 13-17 wereworking in Thailand. In 1998, the number of children for sexual exploitation in Thailand were 12,000 to 18,000. Child trafficking is estimated to be a trade worth 7.37 billion British pounds Internal trafficking of ethnic Thais from the North and North-eastern provinces to urban centres is seen. Also seen is the trafficking of hill tribe minorities especially girls to work in massage parlors and night clubs and bars.

Many NGOs and government departments reported a figure of 200,000 prostitutes in Thailand, but the figures wereconservative estimates. In 2000, the commission of Women's Affairs estimated that 20% of prostitutes were children. A significant portion of these prostitutes were under debt bondage.

I think the point many of us are trying to make is that these women have limited choices; that many of them have no choices at all; and that, in view of Asian culture, they would NEVER let on that there was a reluctance in serving you, the customer. That type of attitude is not just present among sex workers, it pervades most of Southeast Asia in any customer relations. We mistake it for submission, but the fact of the matter is, it's cultural. I suppose that's why many Americans are so "disappointed" when they meet assimilated Thai-American women who no longer subscribe to notions of humility and servitude.

"None of these young women was particularly high-end." And "I paid more than the market rate for Ploy’s time, but I liked her." Wow, what a big spender!!! How generous of you. Yeah, someone going all the way to Asia to get laid would probably balk at a $500/hr escort, when one can have a "daring entrepreneur who is stepping beyond the social values of her culture!"

Your arguments and rationalizations are particularly insidious, because it seems you think you're HELPING these women by using their services. Wake up, Caribou: you're supporting a system that continues to exploit women in the worst way for the benefits of guys who think with their wallets rather than their brains. For the rest of us: Read this and weep.

http://www.rfa.org/english/lao/2007/02/08/lao_sextrade/

but I have been to AMPS in small towns in both Connecticut and Pennsylvania and gotten to know a few providers there well, to the point where I have met some of their family and been a guest in their homes, and I can most assuredly state that they are working by their own free will and not part of some malevolent empire that is enslaving them or exploiting them.

Perhaps some are, but that has not been what I have found out so far.

But you might at least show respect for first hand knowledge. I might remind you that there are any number of books and articles purporting to show that the sex trade in the US, indeed everywhere, is exploiting women and that you degrade them by your 'hobby'. Andrea Dworkin famously categorized all heterosexual sex as rape. Just because she wrote a book doesn't make it so.
Is there oppressive sex traffic in LOS? Yes, there is. The Thai authorities are aware of it and often prosecute those caught. Is Carabu's characterization of Bangkok bar girls accurate? Yes, and I've seen it first hand. It's more than a bit ignorant to berate someone for their personal experience because what you've read doesn't agree with their reality.
You want exploitation? The going rate for a young female caddy at the upscale country clubs around Chiang Mai is 200 Baht for 18 holes. That's 4 hours walking a course pulling your golf bag, handing you clubs, cleaning your ball, giving (almost always excellent) advice on your next shot... 2000 Baht for a day of sightseeing, better meals than you'd otherwise get and some sex begins to look pretty good. What would your preference be, and what is the difference between that young Thai woman and one of our esteemed ladies here who prefers $300+ per hour for fucking to working in an insurance office for $8 per hour? And do tell, are those selfsame ladies exploited because their economic opportunities are better on their backs than in an office?
Don't tar everyone with the same brush and for god's sake show some respect for first-hand experience. I know how to avoid seeing exploited women in this country and I can damn well manage the same thing in Thailand.

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What did you do to provoke this outburst? I've been living in Bangkok for several years now and I go to the bars in Nana a couple of times a week for some delicious Asian pussy and ladyboy cock and this has never happened to me so you must have done something to get this kicking.

Carrie of London you don't know what you are talking about. Best to stay quiet on this one, dearie.

what happened to "judge not, that ye be not judged" and "people in glass houses should not throw stones"?

you righteously condemn a stranger's suffering and then tag that condemnation with a request for clients of your services -- services which the majority of your countrymen find as immoral as you find the actions of the poor thai girl struggling to feed her family in issan?

it's a curious world far beyond my understanding.

Maybe many are there by their own wills.  Maybe there are only a few women in an AMP, four or five.

However, I'm acutely aware of the slavery problem.  I will add, though, that it might be a far more disgusting in the hobby, slavery is not unique to the hobby.  You see it in many industries.      

Funny, somehow I missed seeing the chains around the ankles of the women siting at a table outside Club Eden in Nana Plaza - yes, outside where they could 'run away' at any moment. The two who got off the Sky Train just ahead of me and walked there smiling and chatting happily on their way to work there must have been consummate actresses to maintain their facade so well. After all, they must be slaves if they work there.
Try to learn something about the subject before you climb on your high horse.

Whereas I do appreciate you first hand account of what you experienced using that anecdotal evidence as proof against slavery isn't exactly fair.

That is akin to someone saying cigarettes aren't bad for you because he knows people that smoked for 70 years and died in their 90's.  Does it happen? yep.  Is it proof that cigarette smoking isn't harmful? Nope.

So, you have encountered a few women that seem to not be involved in the sex industry via slavery, that doesn't mean it isn't happening, or that someone in that atmosphere after many years isn't resolved to it.  There are also stories of slaves in the US south in the 1700's returning to their "masters" of their own free will. Sometimes one can simply accept something as their fate and work within that framework...or would you assume after  maybe ten or more years the women would only talk about being slaves with each other?  That they wouldn't make friends or take moments of happiness within their lives even if they are not in a position by choice originally? That maybe women can be ok with what they do, not because they originally chose it but because they know it could be worse?

Maybe the women walking in front of you chose the  work they are doing maybe they didn't...but that two women in the same spot, by choice or not, chatting with each other in a manner other than desperation or depression isn't proof against  women being forced into the sex trade.

I certainly wouldn't maintain that sexual slavery doesn't happen in Thailand, or in the US for that matter. I also accept that it is likely a more common occurance there than here. My point is that it is not as axiomatic as many would have us believe. Some seem to think that using the services of a woman in Thailand is supporting sexual slavery whether she is in that situation or not, as has been emphatically stated in posts abve. Fine - if that is the case, we must nold the same true here and stop visiting these ladies until it ceases altogether.
I believe my point was that the establishment I chose to visit held no aura of coercion, and if it had I would not have done so. I am no rapist, and have no desire to see such trade flourish.
My anecdotal evidence, and that of Carabu, merely points out that our experiences were not exploitive. If we were to take Ciara's advice and stay away entirely then the women could just stay in Isaan and remain in poverty with their families.
It ain't all black and white, you know.

that's why I am so pleased that I can visually differentiate between a very large grey scale.

You and me both - some nice shades of grey out there, eh?

not women who are going to work as escorts in establishments. Get off your high horse and don't assume. I was responding to Zin's post.

Hugs,
Ciara

I was responding to Zin's post about slave trading, not known establishments, and yes I've traveled the world and am not as ignorant as you think. Don't assume anything about me.

I hate it when people put words into my mouth that I didn't say. Urgh! Look who's thinking in "black and white."

Hugs,
ciara

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...across country borders.  That's the solution, but the "political" solution is everything above this reply.

Actually, no - you weren't. You lit up on btwob's description of Nana Plaza without ever having been there and without really readeing it. I've been there, and to Patpong, and Soi Cowboy and I've been in some of the establishments there. Never once saw anything that could be construed to be slavery. Never. He described a bunch of thugs OUTSIDE a bar and you let your imagination run wild with what you feel must have been inside it. He never went in - understand? He never said what was inside, never said it was a brothel - he said it was a bar.

Let's look at what you've written, shall we?

"Especially at my age, "some" men don't understand that women from other -- possibly third-world countries --  are victims who are forced to prostitute themselves or see no other avenue but slavery because of family, economics or feel they have no where else to turn."

That would be all women ouside your world?

"However, I feel also for the men who go to these places assuming that all these foreign women are happy to be giving these services and expect cheap donations for what? A scared and possibly beaten lady all in the name of the "hobby," or what we call it in the United States: Sold into slavery because their families are starving. If you really want to help out a lady there, give her and her family rent and buy them food, then have a great time with the provider without the pimp."

What you're saying, as far as I can fathom, is that unless they're American they can't have a choice in what they're doing? Because they're "3rd world" they aren't as smart as we are and are taken advantage of?

Or is your real problem the price for the services? Are you offended that a man could go to Bangkok, spend a week seeing 2 women each day and spend less for the whole package than he would seeing 4 providers in the US, airfare included? Please understand something - cost of living varies greatly in this world.

I've never had an encounter with a 'scared and beaten woman', either in the US or any other country, and I take great umbrage at your insinuations that I support anything like that. Guess what - there are 'scared and beaten' women in your business in your country, but I doubt you'd like someone telling your clients that by seeing you they are supporting that.

I'm trying to read something else into it, but all I can see from what you've written is that any man who engages in sex for money outside the '1st world' is de facto supporting sexual slavery. Step off your high horse before you eyeball mine, and see if you can't lose a bit of that 'ugly american' complex while you're at it. Just because they speak a different language and might be a different color doesn't make you smarter or more capable. And here's something else to think about - the sex trade was happening in Asia long before the round eyes got there to exploit them.

Hugs back,

Puck

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Please point to anything you've written in this thread that is not a condemnation of any man enjoying the same activities you make your living off of in this country. I'll cheerfully apologize.

Hugs back,

Puck

I apologize if my post offended you. That was not my intention. I do not dispute the assertion that a despicable traffic in sex slaves exists in Thailand and Southeast Asia. My post began by acknowledging it, and your data provides solid evidence to support that particular point. Thank you.

What I dispute is the assumption in so many of the early posts to this thread that all Thai sex workers are slaves. It simply isn’t true. This would be obvious to anyone who spent more than an hour talking to the young women who work in and around the Nana Entertainment Plaza in Bangkok. My little anecdotes were intended to illustrate the freedom these particular sex workers have to come and go as they please, to turn down customers they don’t wish to spend time with, and to change jobs at will – things that slaves cannot do. If you told them they were slaves, they would laugh you out of the room. My little anecdotes are special memories of good times for me, but they were not intended to impress you. Rather, they are fairly typical for guys who spend time with Thai bargirls and go-go dancers.  Thousands of men have similar experiences every year.

You are correct when you say that Thai sex workers value Western men primarily for their money – just like Western sex providers. There’s a famous story about a Western man in Bangkok who had a T-shirt made with “ATM” printed on the front in big letters; he couldn’t walk a block without a bargirl poking him in the stomach and holding her hand out for cash. But they also prefer to spend time with men who treat them politely and with respect – just like Western sex providers.

I didn’t claim that they are daring entrepreneurs. I reported that as the conclusion of a Western woman, an anthropologist who lived among them and got to know them up close and personal.

Finally, I don’t feel that I helped them. I simply benefiting from the pleasure of their company, even as they benefited from the money I paid them – just like Western sex providers.

Yes, read my statements again. I'm paraphrasing about the above things I stated because I cannot copy and paste from two different areas then post it here, so here goes:  I mentioned about if men really wanted to help these women, then buy them food, clean bedding and then "have fun with them later but without the pimp." So . . . I'm basically saying it's okay to play with them, but try something different too. I also responded to Zin's post, not to the original poster as you implied. You are mistaken and yes, you need to apologize for being so rude to me and being in the "black and white" yourself. And, what makes you think I haven't been to Bangkok or third-world countries. Don't assume. It makes an "ass out of you and me."  You're rude so that's all I have to say to you. Why don't you respond to others who have posted negatively on this too and to the original poster? Got something against me, Puck?

However, you're kidding yourself as far as the -- and I'm paraphrasing you, "watch young ladies smile and laugh and talk to each other." Why shouldn't they? They're not working at the moment, and perhaps they're great actresses when they do work. Perhaps they're talking about school, a cute guy. It doesn't mean they're really happy about what they're doing. That's ignornant to think such a thing. In fact, here is what Webmaster stated to you, "Maybe the women walking in front of you chose the work they are doing maybe they didn't...but that two women in the same spot, by choice or not, chatting with each other in a manner other than desperation or depression isn't proof against  women being forced into the sex trade." My point is made by that statement alone.

And . . . until you're an escort, prostitute (whatever you want to call it, but there is a difference in atmosphere no matter what you think) or from one of those countries working as a prostitute, you really have no idea what they feel. So, yes, please "get off your high horse." I have the right to express my opinions just like you do, but I am not badgering anyone like you are, Puck. You don't appear to be a very nice guy, but see that's just me "assuming" (like you did) and I could be wrong, right?  



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This is the first time you made any distinction between "slave markets not bars and brothels". I won't bother cutting and pasting, you have only ro re-read your own posts.
I didn't mean to 'badger', merely to respond. Those of us on this side of the table don't particularly like being tagged as predators - and that was clear in every post you made.
I don't ask you to like me, just don't judge me, and please don't blame me if you are unable to communicate your meaning clearly. Those who know me know that I am the farthest possible thing from being a predator.

Peace out.

One reason they might not have been guiding out of that particular club was that they might have run away.  Do you find that an unreasonable hypothesis, Puck?  I think it's as reasonable as trying to say that there's none, or it's a negligible problem in the orient.  

In a previous post where you said that most outside the hobby would call this exploitation or enslavement and take Andrea Dworkin's point of view.  IMHO, the main problem with that is one of exaggeration and magnification.  Like saying that every marriage is abusive.  

Sexual slavery, despite your judgmental denial, is well-documented, but slavery is very well documented in other industries, as well.  So I take the POV that it's not a problem of prostitution, it's a problem of slavery.    

I'm glad you saw counter-examples, but I already knew there were plenty.  For my own behavior, I think it's best to err on the cautious side.          

You've got to be joking right? Living near Nana and visiting it several times per week for several years, I can say that such an occurence is impossible unless you provoked it in a very substantial way.

As for girls forced into this work, based on someone who knows this as 'a fact', that is also a complete joke. I know several hundred of these girls. There are no girls in Nana forced into this. In Thailand, 99.99% of the girls do it of their own free will, often with the consent of their families. Why? To make money for themselves and help their families. It is as simple as that. This is the fact despite ridiculous newspaper articles and CNN stories.

As for girls being smuggled into other countries, like Japan or the Middle East (often by Non-Thai people) I do not know a lot about that, but can imagine it happening. However, I most certainly do know Nana and the girls who work there, and your story and most of the replies are completely ridiculous.

Best of luck in your illusions and delusions.

Carrie of London, on what evidence do you base your opinion that the people (women, men and crossgenders) in the Thai sex trade are forced into the business.

My experience would indicate that most choose to go into the business to make more money than might be available to them through more traditional forms of work - the precise same reason for the vast majority of prostitutes all over the world.

Bleeding heart crap that has nothing to do with reality may make you feel better in your cosy home in London but adds bugger all to a discussion on the Thai sex trade.

I am interested to hear the story about btwob being beaten up but my experience would indicate that he may have been drunk and done more than simply tried to make his way calmly past some bar spruikers.

There is no benefit to be gained by beating up potential customers so I wonder if we have the full story here.

Actually, yes - I do find that an unreasonable hypothesis. As Carabu stated, it is highly unlikely in a Nana Plaza bar. The three main 'red light' districts of Bangkok - Nana Plaza, Patpong and Soi Cowboy - are major tourist attractions as well, and are heavily patrolled by the Thai police.
You're quite right, slavery exists in this world and even in this country. It's hidden from the general public, and when it is exposed it is prosecuted with vigor. It exists in Asia as well and is just as hidden. It is not on display in the tourist centers.
As for my statement about Dworkin and exploitation, I did not say that most outside the hobby consider what we do exploitation. What I said was this:

"I might remind you that there are any number of books and articles purporting to show that the sex trade in the US, indeed everywhere, is exploiting women and that you degrade them by your 'hobby'. Andrea Dworkin famously categorized all heterosexual sex as rape. Just because she wrote a book doesn't make it so."

That was merely an attempt to put this into perspective.

There is a lot of emotion tied up in this discussion and I aplologize heartily for letting it get the better of me. Sexual coercion and slavery are horrible things and should never be tolerated or abetted. It is the responsibility of any participant in this game to do what is right and expose the wrong, but hysteria and painting an entire part of the world with a broad brush does nothing to  solve the problem.

-- Modified on 7/26/2007 2:25:01 AM