After reading posts from yesterday's discussion on providing references, I have a question (one poster alluded to this catch 22 already). If a provider decides she will not partake in the reference system because it is an “inferior” method of screening, should she be able to benefit from reviews being posted of her? I mean, if references are inferior, are not reviews inferior? If she feels she is beyond providing references to other ladies, shouldn't she feel beyond having gentlemen provide references for her via the review system?

If you are a provider who doesn't give references, I am certain you would not want to receive the same treatment from the gents and forgo reviews. You and I know it would hurt your business. You want to play, as well as the gents want to play. Why ruin it for you and why ruin it for them?

I encourage you to ponder this deeply. If you do not want to provide references (the female version of reviews), then get off of TER. Thank you!

Otherwise, let's all play nice! Share knowledge. Help keep each other safe. Be naughty. Play! Mmmmmm...

Xoxo,
Gia

Does a lady see reviews as a benefit to the lady, or to the gent she has seen? Does a lady only tolerate reviews or discourage them, thinking they are simply a necessary evil in the biz? Equating reviews and references is not black and white.

There are many reasons for some ladies to not play the reference game - worry over being associated with a lady who may find herself somehow compromised, past bad experiences after having given a reference, simple indifference, all the way down the line to wanting to make it difficult for a gent to see anyone else. I don't know and I don't judge when I come across someone who doesn't give references- that's her business, not mine.  I do tell the gent when references are not available from a particular lady. I also remember... If you want references from me, I expect you to reply to my inquiries as well...

.02

Your message is well-thought out and sensible.

However, I found one of my most rewarding sessions with a new provider to be one where I was first screened via RoomService2000 followed by two different telephone conversations.

In essence, she verified my personal information and screened me via the telephone calls.

The telephone conversations really set a certain mood of comfort for both of us that allowed the session to truly blossom.

I would always invite such screening in the future.

.....not the provider. Yes, of course we benifit from them, however, they're in place so that gents can make educated decisions when choosing a provider.

As far as should a lady be 'allowed to benifit' from reviews if she doesn't do references?? Why? As a punishment?? Many ladies do not give and or ask for refs. That is entirely their own business. They each have their reasons and some pretty valid ones too.  To wonder if she should not be allowed reviews unless she plays by your rules is preposterous. We all have our own policies and rules that work best for us. Let's worry about our own way of doing biz and do whats best for us.

That being said, I myself am very reference friendly.  I much prefer a lady who is upfront and honest about not giving refs than one that just won't return your call and emails. But, to take away and keep her from getting reviews? That's kind of silly.

on a visceral level I want to agree, but the devil is in the details.....

In my opinion, an existing provider friend of mine should have a say in whether I give her contact information to a "new" lady  - it is my policy to always ask an existing provider friends *specifically* if I may put another lady in contact with her to ask for a reference.

In my experience, providers often know back channel information about one another. I've had provider friends of mine on a few occasions inform me of issues with specific providers,  declining to participate in providing a reference for them and / or providing me with information to consider in making my choice.

This does not occur often. When it has occurred, I have usually had the same reaction from more than one provider friend, so I don't believe they were simply trying to avoid "sharing" me lol.

While I want to agree in principle that providers who benefit from the TER review system should be willing to provide references, but I believe they should have discretion in the matter.

Additionally, if a provider white lists me, gives me a date check referral and / or a preferred411 provider okay, I consider that to be an adequate contribution to the overall referral process, in the event that the lady prefers not to give direct references for whatever reason.

Provider world is not monolithic. There are ladies with exceptionally high screening standards (often not involving the use of references), with security and protocol standards, who may not wish to have contact with other providers who do not follow such rigorous protocols.

There are UTR providers who have reviews here, and still receive some, but have largely gone under the radar.

There are really too many situations to detail. As with many things in life, a generalization to the effect that *all* providers should be willing to do so and so does not survive contact with reality.

Let's flip what you just said about providers and references in terms of gents and reviews. What if someone said this to you (deviation from your original post):

“There are many reasons for some [gents] to not play the [review] game - worry over being associated with a [gent] who may find [himself] somehow compromised, past bad experiences after having given a [review], simple indifference, all the way down the line to wanting to make it difficult for a [provider] to see anyone else…”

I have nothing against providers who do not give references. I do not ask for many. However, I am interested in if the tables were turned and gents would not give them a review (the male version of a reference), what would they do!?!

Interesting.......

Your question:

If a provider decides she will not provide references to providers who utilize them as a means to determine which men they will see and that she will not request them as a part of any process to determine who she sees -
Should she be able to receive reviews?

Your argument is predicated upon the premise that reviews = positive business generation.
In some cases, reviews provide legitimacy to a provider; if she receives good reviews she may appear stable and worthy of the consideration of a client who is interested in the service that she offers.

Tell me, how is your argument applicable to a provider who consistently garners poor or mediocre reviews?
If she chooses not to participate in the reference system, would her business be harmed if clients in turn decided not to write reviews for her business because they've determined that she would not aid them in passing the screening process of another business?  

A review is not equal to a reference.
A review is an assessment of a service made by clients in the vein of protecting consumer interest.  

When a client chooses to review a provider he gives a detailed assessment of the service that she has provided and the impressions that he was left with.  It is not necessarily an endorsement, nor is it a requirement of meeting a provider.
After a client has paid the requested donation and received the service, anything else is above and beyond and his PERSONAL CHOICE as a matter of his "hobby".

Alternatively, after a provider has provided the service promised in exchanged for her donation and the client has exited her company -
Anything that she chooses to do is above and beyond and her PERSONAL CHOICE as a matter of her business.

Personally, I think that these discussions over providers who choose not to participate in the reference system are both petty & childish.
As I said earlier today, I provide them real time via email, day or night and am honored that other providers trust my word enough to ask.

BUT-

I think that providers who continually denigrate other providers who do not participate in the system should direct their energy to more productive pursuits.

and based on my experience most high-end companions do not accept or give references but they are not listed here or favor getting reviews either. What is the big deal anyway??? Reviews are written by hobbists for other hobbists.

A reference is a professional courtesy, that's all, no one is required to give them. An easy way to let people know if you provide them is to put it on your site in your FAQ's there now YOU are in control o your own business.

I'm reference friendly  (you can see that on my faqs) and do my best to provide them if i can, HOWEVER there are limitations on that. I have my comfort level and that's that.

Ive also never had issues getting references from other providers, even ones that are not known for giving them. Try being nice, respectful of their time and humble about asking for them. You will be surprised what a little real gratitude and understanding that they dont NEED to help you out will get you.

Jenny

Reviews does not equal good business anyway. Look at the very pricey providers, they do well without being reviewed. Can we just stop bashing providers over everything from rates to references and everything else in between???

http://stefanilaney.com/Contact.html

...when asking for them, and I would never be anything less than respectful as well.

I was just interested in what people thought in terms of references=reviews. It was mentioned below and I thought I would play with it some. I haven't posted as much in a few days, so hey!

Thanks for the fun, everyone. Childish, playful, interested or not!

Xoxo,
Gia

in the end they are helping their client.
If I can't verify a gent w or w/o a refs I won't see him. So who they are doing this for is the gent, not the lady asking.
Yes its appreciated and have only had trouble a few times. Usually its a piece of cake to get a ref from a well known lady.

With all that was said above, consider how reviews and references are comparable. It really does not matter if you do or do not want to give them, as I am beyond that debate. Just consider how parallel the two are. Please!

Reviews
Not LE (possibly she is and the reviewer lied!)
Not a rip-off
Who she says she is
Additional bookings if the reviews are good
Decrease in bookings if the reviews are shitty
NOT necessary if a gent does not ever use this system. He has other effective means.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.


References
Not LE (possibly he is and the reference lied!)
Not a rapist, rip-off or on blacklist
Who he says his is
Additional bookings if the references are good
Decrease in p*ssy play if the references are horrible
NOT necessary if provider does not ever use this system. She has other effective means.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

Hmmmm.......It is just interesting how comparable the two are.

Other than that, I really could care less what any other provider does in terms of HER business…I have MY own. I am here for me. Always will be. But, I must say it is an interesting concept even if you want to think it does not exist.

Now, I need to get off the computer!!

Xoxo,
Gia
Always reference friendly.

and a provider either does or doesn't give references.  I don't see that the two correlate.  I would never hold out a reference for a review and I hope gents aren't holding back reviews for the girls that don't reference.

...giving a review of some sort when a lady asks for a reference? Yes, we are. Now gents are different creatures and need to read how the...felt. On the other hand, to many ladies a "he is ok" will suffice. Still comparable even if you want to deny it.

SOME guys rely on reviews to make a completely informed decision...in addition to other means.

SOME gals rely on references to make a completely informed decision...addition to other means.

Just curious...

Xoxo,
Gia

Most of my friends do not write reviews as they would prefer to remain more discreet and/or do not use the discussion boards.  Are you implying that ladies should refuse to give reference for guys who do not give reviews?!  That's as preposterous as gents refusing to write reviews simply because a lady refuses to give references.

They are not the same thing, not everyone views them in the same manner, not everything that works for you will work for another, and not everything that works for another will work for you.  As it should be.

I'm glad that you are enjoying yourself with it all.

It was an analogy in how the guys screen us, and how we in turn (secondly) screen them.  HOWEVER, the similarity ends there.  References and reviews are not the same thing... as was the exact point of my original post:  It is not tit for tat.


-- Modified on 6/8/2009 9:11:00 PM

In the past year, I have had 10 reviews. Why? Because my friends do value discretion and do not typically write reviews. Should they be able to receive a reference from me even if they do not write me a review? Of course! Why? Because I partake in this review game. If my clients would like a reference, I will oblige. I never deny them references.

Now, if I said this whole review, reference, review, reference system was preposterous and I do not want to partake...then, I would expect my friends to not partake in writing me a review as well. What I expect of them is what I expect of myself. Simple. Nothing more. I do not know how to articulate it any more to you ladies. It is so clear.

Just curious why people do not see a correlation between reviews and references. Beyond that, I could care less what you do in terms of screening.

Interesting by far...

Xoxo,
Gia

If I were a provider I would put far more credibility in a reference from a well reviewed provider than I would in screening.  If the client has already seen a well reviewed provider then you can rest assured he is neither LE nor a weirdo.  Screening on the other hand is completely worthless for detecting LE, and it can also be easily defeated by anyone with a little knowledge on how background checks work. Therefore, I would think that providers would fully support giving and checking out references.  The more people work together in this hobby the safer we will all be.

How do you get that I am accusing your friends of being indiscreet?  I said "and/or do not use the discussion boards."  There is more than one reason for gents who do not write reviews.  Just as when a lady does not give references - there is more than one reason that this happens.  In either case, it is their business, not mine to judge.
(shrug)

If you thought all this online stuff was preposterous and did not want to partake in any of it, you could ask your friends to respect your wishes.  You could also expect that at some point someone would violate your wishes.  It's their right to write a review, just as it's your right to not see them again if they do.  

The reason this is all so confused IMHO is even those of us such as myself who have (SEVERAL TIMES) clearly stated a correlation between the benefits and use of reviews and references do not agree with the premise of your original post.

I disagree that they are similar enough that one requires participation in the other, or that one should be withheld without participation in the other.

...A provider accepts a reference from a compromised provider who has been busted and is in cooperation with the police to net other providers.

Guess what?

I have on multiple occasions in just three years.

I'm also assuming you've never seen or heard of instances in which clients have behaved as perfect gentlemen with providers over the course of a substantial amount of time / relationship and then gone awry, literally "flipping" and abusing the current references that he has.

Guess what?

I have on multiple occasions in just three years.
In fact, the only time that I have been robbed and "roughed up" so that he could escape is by a client who had given me a stellar reference which checked out through a reputable provider.  Days after he violated me/my trust he returned to her as a "repeat guest" and did the same thing to her for an overnight appointment.  He went on a rampage citing excellent references with a local agency that he used every single week for months, robbing and stealing from visiting providers.

References - as with any other method of screening - can be abused and are not a panacea.
References are in fact, for the uninformed and/or inexperienced provider a false sense of security.

Don't get me wrong, a reference can be sufficient for my purpose when meeting a new client, but I don't invest my physical safety and well being or quality of life 100% in the experience of another provider.

Junior providers who are obsessed with the idea that another provider owes her something by virtue of proximity and shared activities should learn this fact instead of trying to force everyone to see a correlation or "responsibility" that isn't there.

In all actuality cops aren't worried about a provider when all they can get from said provider is a misdemeanor charge.  So unless some provider is laundering money, selling drugs, or has a pimp I'm not sure that'd EVER happen.  The man power behind doing something like that is almost more than busting down a door at a local known drug house.

Cops can pull people over people and hand out felonies with a whole lot less trouble and money spent on trying to get 5 providers for a misdemeanor charge.  Not even a gross mis, but a regular mis. that will later be reduced to a lesser charge in court.

...Not what I think.

If in "actuality cops aren't worried about a provider when all they can get from said provider is a misdemeanor charge" - then why is there such an LE aversion by providers and why do providers go through such extreme lengths to prevent being arrested?  I mean, if getting arrested is really just as simple as the inconvenience of a misdemeanor ticket most providers would gladly be a great deal more riskier than they are in order to generate more revenue than they lose with screening and "paranoia".

I have *witnessed* providers flipped and I have *witnessed* incall locations that have been compromised used by the police to secure more arrests.
I am not speaking in speculation and if you visited the provider only board and asked for what others have witnessed- I am very sure that my comments would be well supported by others.

not everywhere its a ticketable offense only.
In vegas maybe this is the case but just about everywhere else its a night spent in jail waiting to pay bail. Losing all your money electronics you had with you, having other charges added on and big huge lawyer fees to widdle it down to a misdermeanor you can live with. All this after your face and name has graced the local paper and you have had to deal with the backlash of it all.
personally I will do anything to avoid that. Even canceling an appt if it doesn't sit right with me. Most states are more than happy to arrest you and make your life hell. They don't care about the man hrs involved they are chasing the principal here. A good healthy prostitution bust makes them feel they are taking the nasty off the streets. Its a bit over the top but in print it reads well for LE and thats the whole point.

Ally, that's horrible that you've been roughed up.

Have you considered training/means of rendering yourself less vulnerable?

Good people are good people -- and you are good people. Good people need not be victims of bad people.

What a fabulous idea. Hey I do very well...no reviews and don't factor in the need to have them in order for me to do well and get the types of clients I enjoy meeting.

IMHO women in general and it seems providers, are their own worst enemy. At least the guys stick together for the most part. I can always count on the ladies to divide and not conquer.

That's why some ladies are at the mercy of those who feel they can stir the pot and cause dissension and crazy competitive maneuvers to garner and or keep business.

[Scenario One] can be found in Arizona where many of the DD ladies busted “reportedly” agreed to cooperate with LE in return for the plea bargain. Now precisely what this cooperation entailed has not been made public (as far as I know) but you cannot discount the possibility that they agreed to give references to support future stings.

       [Scenario Two} And even stranger according to the Phoenix Board is that some of the gals arrested and released are back doing business as usual. Are you going to accept references from them?

      [Scenario Three] There seems to be a tendency by so many to assume that LE will continue sting tactics of the 80s and 90s to deal with Internet prostitution. I think this is naïve.

       Think how easy and cost effective it would be to create a fake provider web site with fake pictures; have two or three LE agents join Internet review sites and purport to review her to give her cred; and then to have her give references when the agents ask to see a real provider. The real provider is confronted with a “client” who has written reviews and “references” from a reviewed lady with a website. So I can’t agree with Balboa that “If the client has already seen a well reviewed provider then you can rest assured he is neither LE”.

       And as to the lady who suggested that “why would LE go to so much trouble to bust for a misdemeanor,” this overlooks the deterrent effect this type of sting would have on internet escort activities. Once a few of these stings are publicized (particularly in a state with MANDATORY jail time for first offenses) there would be much less enthusiasm for  total reliance on the reference system.

      So the reference system is definitely vulnerable from a LE perspective, in addition to the psychotic client problem Ally related.



-- Modified on 6/9/2009 10:41:09 AM

I'm just curious as to what action you took after being roughed up and robbed by your "client"? Since you had his personal info and his provider references, what did you do?

You've never hrd of a busted provider making deals with the cops to bust other proividers? The issue isn't serious jailtime or such. The police want to embarass you out of the hobby. Crimes of consent exist to provide revenue to the coffers.

I had minimal personal information because I chose to rely upon the reference system that the providers here are so vehemently asserting their natural rights to.

I attempted to warn the reference provider, she did not get back to me until it was too late and he had struck again, turning on her.

I posted about it on several boards and provided an accurate description for other ladies so that they could protect themselves.
He went on quite the tear assaulting/robbing visiting providers but his MO and appearance was recognized after a few months and a few providers he attempted his act on plainly recognized and ejected him based on the information that was circulated.  I haven't heard of him striking again in at least a year now.

A provider has recourse in extreme instances (rape, physical battery/harm, etc.)- however, most providers will tell you that being robbed of a donation and pushed around a bit is more often than not a learning experience.  I made mistakes in meeting him; I corrected my business and helped identify him for other providers for blacklisting/DNS and I believe that was the appropriate recourse.
If I were ever grossly harmed/attacked, I would take other action.

we assume because the connection was made on craigslist, that the murdered woman didnt screen however she had been in the business for quite some time and its entirely possible she did screen.

it is all too easy for any psychotic to behave themselves for a couple of hours in order to get the references they need.

its not like the women who gave him a reference (if in fact any exist) would come forward and admit to it.

It's all speculation because every community enforces the law differently.  What might be a common practice in Boston might not even exist in Chicago.  There is no way to predict with certainty what LE will do. I am somewhat familiar with what is going on in my community and the surrounding areas but again anything can happen.  My original point was that in my opinion reliable references are more dependable than screening.  Screening is very easy to defeat.  I posted a response to a thread where I explained how to easily get around screening and I was seriously flamed for doing so.  Thinking back in retrospect it was not a wise move on my part because that information could be used by anyone who read the response.

I honestly believe the only reason most providers have not encountered more LE is because so far LE hasn't gone after independent providers unless there is a complaint or some other reason.  But as someone mentioned that might change with the disappearance of street walkers and the demise of Craig's List.

If I were a provider I would cover all the bases and disregard most of what is written or said about arrests etc.  The fact is most of the information passed around is rumor. I would do my own research and I would start at the local court house in the jurisdiction where I was operating. Reading the cases, or complaints, filed in the misdemeanor arraignment court would be the best source of information on who is getting arrested and how LE is enforcing the prostitution laws in my community. The court records are public record and available to anyone who wishes to see them. What happens in another city would only be mildly interesting.

I would also be painfully aware of the reality of what I was doing was illegal and inherently dangerous and the best precautionary steps could fail. There is a certain amount of risk involved regardless of careful we are.

He seen one provider, treated her like gold, so he could see others and not pay them or short them. Eventually he did this to so many ladies it got bk to the provider he got reference froM and she quit vouching for him.

agree to plea bargains.  But did the cops just randomly chose a lady to compromise and decide to plea bargain with her to give her a loitering ticket instead of a prostitution charge??  NO!

They had more behind the cases used as examples.  Drugs, money laundering, tax evasion etc.  As I stated above if anyone would have actually READ my post instead of skimming a few words and putting it together as they saw fit.  

I do NOT see one lady getting busted at her incall, who isn't directly related with a prostitution ring or some other high profile case, and end up giving away ample information in order to lessen her already misdemeanor charge for another misdemeanor.  Nor do I see officers wasting their time to set up elaborate operations to catch ONE indy in order to gain information from her unless they are working on a case that is much bigger than her and she MAY have some information they need.

Did I spell that out for yall?  If not let me know.  I use to work in the legal system and the cops aren't wasting the money and man power to simply bust one lady in order to gain access to her accounts UNLESS they have bigger fish to fry that are in her skillet already.

around here, they will and do set up stings to catch johns and girls using outcall/incall locations that include private residences as well as hotel/motel rooms... all for the single girls/guys.

They usually net only a few 'small fry' at a time. Maybe they are looking for something bigger, but it would seem not. Either way, I don't think it would be wise of anybody to count on law enforcement to NOT bother them as 'small fry'.

I never said they wouldn't set up stings.  They do that everywhere.  But to set up an elaborate sting for the sole purpose of gaining control of a ladies email to catch other ladies and compromise reference (which is what this post is about) is just silly as hell.  

I am done discussing this because EVERYONE seems to be missing the point and simply SKIMMING my post rather than reading them. Or reading the thread in entirety.

this is why if she is not WELL reviewed, I have heard of her and can find her over a period of yrs...I am not comfortable taking her word on a client. If shes well reviewed by reviewers with many reviews who also are well known its a different story.
Seeing as I do Not travel i seem to get refs from many of the local gals who I either know or know of and respect now that I am more comfortable with.
Some of the local guys have made the rounds of the local talent and with refs from 3 ladies I know of and trust their judgement they are good refs in my book. That doesn't mean I don't check him out as well but I have a better feel for who he is.  Lets face it nothing is fool proof.
A gent could behave perfectly well 99.9% of the time and that one time lose it. its a risky business no doubt. And one you never put your guard down in completely, not even with your regulars. Life can throw you some mean ass curve balls.

Its NO Ones Business who gives references- who doesnt give references -
Its no ones business how anyone runs their business-
Ladies put to much faith in this reference system - i mean who really puts their own fate/ life into the hands of Sally fvcking Sue ... Its all nonsense-

No lady HAS to give references- if they dont - move on and do your own screening, just like she did -

If one doesnt want to give references get off of TER ?

Insanity -
Stop the nonsense,really, its getting old.

i think you're missing the point.

When I reference a guy I am not validating anything other than he saw me and I would or would not see him again.  And of course if he's difficult to schedule or some non service issue.  A review is a lot more than that even if it's not a blow by blow.  

I do see your point but I don't see them as the same

-- Modified on 6/10/2009 12:30:31 AM

I was wondering when you'd chime in and bring some common sense to this thread....thank you!

The essential elements of the case are fairly close to the scenarios we have been talking about:

1. A TER member made contact with a lady thru TER;
2. He brought her and other ladies to Minn where they charged his group as much $500 an hour;
3. police arrested one of the ladies, flipped her, and assumed her identity as well as one of the clients;
4. LE communicated with new clients masquerading as this lady and the client;
5. LE arrested many of the ladies and the clients.

      As best as I can tell from the article, there was no money laundering, drugs or other non-prostitution offense, the ladies were apparently indies (at least no agency is mentioned), and the only crime the ladies committed was misdemeanor prostitution.

      LE spent over a year on the investigation. So again it is simply naive to assume they will not do this just bc in your area you have not heard about it.

I'm a very little fish, a misdemeanor at best that would most likely be dismissed or reduced if I ever had to face a day in court.  I really can't a provider would go the route you describe but if you say you had it happen, OK.  

More to the point, if a provider such as you describe gives you the reference, she still doesn't know if, when, where or any of the details of a proposed meeting between you and the client.

No offense but you are naïve. Here in atl they do it all the time. You'd be surprised at lengths they go to to bust providers.  The aim isn't "bigger fish" to catch its making your life so miserable with embarassment, loss of money and valuables and jail time so you'll just quit. Not to mention fines you'll pay. Its about making money for the city! And many a gal has been busted at an incall.

No offense but you are naïve. Here in atl they do it all the time. You'd be surprised at lengths they go to to bust providers.  The aim isn't "bigger fish" to catch its making your life so miserable with embarassment, loss of money and valuables and jail time so you'll just quit. Not to mention fines you'll pay. Its about making money for the city! And many a gal has been busted at an incall.