I was talking to a friend on mine explaining that I had recently become active in the hobby lifestyle.  Everyone here knows the story – married for a long time (10 years plus), sex life nonexistent, but for the most part happy with my life.

I described my choice (sex outside of marriage) as “Turning to the Darkside.”  Although I feel little guilt and have no plans of stopping any time soon I do feel that this activity has a morally questionable component to it.

So here’s my question.  Do you guys feel that you have Turned to the Darkside or is hobbying more a Right of Passage for (mostly) middle aged men seeking an exceptional sexual experience?

but for me at least, it certainly isn't "Turning to the Darkside"

I'm just enjoying myself, I've been doing so for years, and I have no intentions of stopping (as long as the plumbing still works) I feel no guilt whatsoever, but I am not married.

I usually curtail my hobbying activities when I am involved in any type of a serious relationship, but I have no  moral problems with hobbying and dating in the civvie world as well. If I were involved with someone that I would feel guilty about my hobbying, I would quit one or the other.

None of the above. I do not think of it as turning to the dark side or as a phase I am going through. For me it really is a hobby. I mean I don't particularly like golf, fishing, or hunting, so what else is there? (lol) My story is probably similar to yours. I just like having sex with beautiful women.

Similar story. How dark depends on whether the wife knows. I presume that she does not.

I see it as giving in to a vice. Some people have marriages that fill their needs, and some do not. Of those that don't, some people have the character to live up to their vows, and some do not.

I admit my shortcomings, and make no pretense. Explanations, yes. Excuses, no.

I suspect you feel a lot of guilt about what you are doing. Thus the need to talk to your friend, and ask this board, for "permission". The person you need to ask for permission is your wife. We can't give it to you. It is your promise to her that you are breaking.

I suggest you learn to live with the guilt, and not try to make yourself an innocent party.

First, I'll say that if you are feeling guilty about what you are doing, if you feel you are being bad, you probably shouldn't be doing it.  Also, you may be risking having your secret revealed by telling a friend.  This also indicates to me that you are unhappy with your own choices.

What do you feel is "dark" or "morally questionable"?  Is it

- sex itself
- sex outside marriage
- paying for sex
- hiding something from/lying to your wife
- being sexually unfaithful to your wife

Most people's concepts of morality are external standards like religious or societal norms. Personally, I believe that since we are talking about sex between consenting adults, there is no moral issue here. The only standards of behavior should be your own and the standards of those who love you/trust you.  

While I would rather not be hiding something from my wife, it is primarily an issue of honesty/trust in a relationship.  Calling  it a "moral" issue just confuses things, in my opinion.  

Only you can answer for yourself whether the risks are worth it.  


filmat11

Those of us(not me) that have to wrestle with their conscience to enjoy this hobby are only dealing with the symptoms of their problem, not the problem itself.

My advice,(worth much less than $.02) for those of you fighting guilt is to either get over it, or deal with the source of your guilt. I know, it's easy for me to say, since I am no longer married(happily divorced for 15 years), but I have had to make these very choices myself. I hope the poster will be as happy about his choice as I have been with mine.

I love this hobby, no guilt

Stop projecting my friend.

As for me, I really do not feel guilt.  I do have apprehension and I am concerned about the impact my discussion may have.  

My reason for the discussion was to inquire how others have answered this question.  Is there an underlining evil element here or more basic human need being fulfilled that is more universal?

about enjoying the company of beautiful women? I can't think of a more basic human need being fulfilled.

Filmat11 - I believe you understood the broader question.  Yes, I do feel there is moral - religious overtone.  Although I am not particularly religious 10 years of Sunday school can hardly be forgotten.  However, the question persists - is ones immortal soul (if there is such a thing) being put at risk?

I almost titled this "Its not the sex stupid". For someone in a serious relationship where monogamy is presumed or explicit, the issue is the lie.

  When the subject of the lie is central to trust in the relationship, the level of disrespect to the other party is profound.

  I suspect that most of us would consider knowingly behaving in a fashion that devalues and can cause extreme hardship to someone close to us a "dark" act. Even in relationships that are mere shells, and only maintained for convenience, acting clandestinely demonstrates a disregard for the other party.

  I suppose that this could be both a right of passage and a dark act. It depends on where the passage has lead to when you reach the END of the journey.

-J

A little philosophy first. My thoughts, not what a professor would teach. In order for there to be "good" and "evil", there must be an objective standard. Either that is imposed upon us (god), or we define it ourselves. If we define it ourselves, then you either chose your own standard, or the standards of the community.

So, "is there an underlying evil element":

God's morality: Yes it is evil. I can't think of any major religion that would condone sex outside of marriage.

Community morality: Mostly evil. Just look at all the laws against hobbying. They exist for a reason. Non-hobbying sex outside of marriage is frowned upon, and only in the context of Family Court does it have real negative consequences.

Individual morality: Only you can answer that. However, I would add that individual morality is no morality at all. If everyone is free to make their own definition of "good" and "evil", then you have moral chaos because there is no standard to judge an act as "good" or "evil". I say "evil", you say "good", who's right? Both and neither.

Just because something is "because we are wired that way" does not mean we are not called to overcome our selfness. Babies are born thinking they are the entire universe. As they grow, they start to develop a sense of community, and overcome selfishness. Using your argument: if it is a "basic human need" then it is ok, then selfishness if ok because that is a basic human trait. If I have a "basic human need" to eat, does that make it right to steel food from you?

Yes, you have a "need" to be sexually fulfilled. You have "desires" that are hardwired. "to everything there is a season, and a time and a purpose for everything under the heavens". There are morally acceptable ways to fill that need. Almost all morals (god and community) would not find hobbying by a married person to be "good".

For any real system of morality, you made a promise to overcome your humanity (basic human need to be fulfilled sexually) and pledged your fidelity. Unless there is another higher moral reason to break your promise (i.e. to keep someone from getting killed), it is "evil" to break that promise.

Do you really have to ask?

If you believe in God, then the answer is obvious. Although, it is just a sign of your belief (or lack thereof), which is the real issue.

If you don't believe in god, then the answer is equally obvious. There is no immortal soul.

You said in your OP "Although I feel little guilt and have no plans of stopping any time soon I do feel that this activity has a morally questionable component to it."

Then said in a subsequent post "As for me, I really do not feel guilt."

Do you or do you not feel guilty about cheating on your wife?

b-

But everyone justifys it their own way...

I am a married man of 27 years to an incredible
woman and I love her vey much. She probabally loves me even more. We have a very strong marriage.

I started this about three years ago and had guilty feelings at the start but the more i did this those same feelings became less and less. Now i don't give it a second thought.

I am addicted to having sex with beautiful woman. I recognize this but refuse to do anything
about it.

12 years of catholic school and i do believe in
God. I guess I'll find out on judgement day

Philosophy is for the birds..


no-one has the right answer! so have a beer, get some head and enjoy the ride. life's too short!

have a good weekend!

jB

transcend - Our worldviews are so different that I really can't give you advice.  Even though you say you are not particularly religious, if you believe that there is a God who is involved in daily events (e.g. a being that knows or cares where you put your private parts), you are much more religious than I.    

While a longer discussion would be more appropriate for the P&R board (and not knowing your definition of "immortal soul"), suffice it to say that I am certain that my mind/consciousness will not survive the death of my body, and I'm pretty certain that there is no wise daddy/ all-knowing busybody/ vengeful judge in the sky.

This is not intended to offend you or anybody else who believes such things, its just that, as I said originally, I don't particularly believe that your church or even society has any business in your bedroom (given consenting adults and all that).  This is really about you and your relationship with your wife.  That's what I would focus on.


filmat11

It's just sex. If it bothers you don't do it. If you like it go ahead and do it. I've been hobbying since my late 20's so it's got nothing to do with middle age.  A catholic upbringing combined with a wife at home would give all indications that I should feel guilty as heck...I don't.
As far as I'm concerned nothing that puts me in a room with a beautiful woman  who is there to give me pleasure could be a bad thing...

WOW!  What a great question.  Although i'm from the provider point of view...i talk to so many of you and learn about your experiences.  What brings you to..."this side".  I guess it all is circumstancial.  
My personal philosophy is that we were met to have multiple sex partners.  Preferably with your partner as an active participant.  "swinging"  or "group sex" is what I think is the ultimate ideal relationship.  However, I know most women don't go for it.  Mostly because of what society teaches us.  It's just not acceptable.  Therefore, women don't know why but they close themselves off from being open enough to try it.  
Therefore most men go off on their own.  Hobbying as an alternative.  Living the great big lie.  But you gotta do what you gotta do.  If you're getting it at home and going out...that's another story.  But YOU have to get it from somewhere.  If the wife won't give it to you....it's ur "right of passage" to go where you will full fill that NEED!  And it is a NEED.
Thanks for listening....Hippie Jamie

-- Modified on 12/7/2007 6:50:54 PM

how does a relationship just go dry in the sack? I've never had that experience, although my best friend did and in that case, her boyfriend was fucking a bunch of other girls. (She caught him and ended it.) However, she says she instinctively knew because the last year of their relationship, they never had sex.

How does this happen? I have been in long relationships and short ones, but so far, no drying up on the sexual front.

I would naturally expect as a wife that if my husband wasn't fucking me, he had to be fucking someone else. That's just my opinion, though... I haven't been an old married woman, so I don't have that frame of reference.

Katie

1 was easy, you can switch off on responsibilites and it's MUCH more manageable. You have more than 1 and schedules get F*cked up in a hurry and no two people seem to be on the same page anymore.

When my wife gives me the nudge, I may have just worked all night and she's taking off for work. When I give her the eye, she may need some major decompression time after a hectic day. Within the last 12 months she has admitted that her sex drive is plumeting, not good news for me because I'm not yet 40 and I thought she was slightly through her prime.

You can come back with all the "make time for each other", Dr. Phil BS but that is a lot easier said than done in our situation.

Then again, she could be fucking someone and that's why we're rarely having sex.  

-- Modified on 12/7/2007 2:02:45 PM

Even after 3 kids, still great sex until menopause, then zippo.

I was out of the hobby for six years. I just got back into it in August. I'm not sure why and while I have enjoyed it, I definitely feel I've gone to the "Dark Side"

Kills it for a lot of women. Sure did for mine, about 7 years ago....

...welcome to the light at the end of the tunnel.  The tunnel being your Right of Passage, not the vagina you're contracted to.

I feel I'm traveling on the dark side when I cannot let my friends and family travel with me, due to fear of their reproach regarding my behavior.

The correct term is "rite of passage," which means a ceremony or solemn observance, as in growing up.  "Right of passage" changes the meaning, and as a play on words it's not very clever.  In this sense, I guess a "right of passage" means the freedom to play around with whomever one pleases at a given time in one's life, and that's not a right but a conscious choice.  Believer in God, atheist, or whatever, the act may or may not have consequences and we as individuals are responsible for our acts.  Bottom line for me is, unless something bad happens that I haven't anticipated or couldn't anticipate, I enjoy the hell out of it.

Katie, The wife has totally lost interest in fullfilling my needs.  We are both upper 50's, she has gained about 75 lbs. since we were married and has a waist as big as mine.  I have lost interest to play at home (again, she is not interested either).  Therefore, I have a recreational outlet in seeing providers.  

Yes, I'm rationalizing.  Providers are better than getting into a relationship (i.e. an affair) which would place a mental and physical burden on the existing relationship.  Hobbying is purely a physical satisfaction.  No regular budget funds are used for the hobby.  Hope you understand.

I was a married, young woman and I will say this.  If you are a remotely introspective person it is natural that you will grow over time.  The issue is, if you pick the wrong partner (as I did) you grow in another direction from them.  For most women, there has to be some sort of emotional connection to make sexual arousal happen in a monogamous, long-term relationship.  I know for me, we grew apart and I grew to want him less.  My sexual desire was still very present, but I just didn’t want him sexually.

There are a myriad of catalysts that can cause the passion to wane: children, growth, careers, illness, menopause or simply settling into a friendship/roommate situation.  I know many of my clients genuinely love their wives and would never want to harm their spouse.  I have said before, and I’ll say again- if I were a woman with a stale marriage- I would much rather my husband see a pro than take a mistress.  Another observation I have:  with enough equality women will begin to see pros as well.

This you can take to the bank, if a woman doesn’t feel sexy- she won’t have sex.  Period.  That is why men who flatter women do so well, a woman wants- on a basic level- to believe she is sexy, desirable and attractive.  After having a child, going thru menopause or after 10 years waiting up late-nights for you to finish at the office, she may feel like she is just a vessel for homemaking/childrearing and no more and thus become asexual.  If you want to spice things up…you need to get her to feel her youthful, sexiness again.

XO
Melanie

My view of marriage is a little different than most.  I was married for 6 years and my ex was pretty accepting of my lifestyle.  I think we both thought that it was a little silly that we both were only going to want to have sex with each other only for the rest of our lives.  The rest of our lives is a long time and I was way young when I got married.  I think most people, both men and women, want to experiment, try someone else or just get their certain needs met elsewhere if they aren't getting met with their partner.  

I think marriage served a purpose some 30+ years ago, but why do people still feel like they have to be attached at the hip to someone?  Men no longer make all the money and women no longer stay at home and cook, so this has made it free for us to find partners and change partners and have more than one.  No?

unless you get caught.  

But really, some people here are taking things way too seriously.  Turning to the darkside? Pfft.  I look at hobbying as simply fulfilling a basic need.  Like eating, drinking or even bathing.  

I was born to do this.  I remember my mom caught me playing with myself and fondling women's breasts when I was 2 years old.  So I've had a fundamental craving for multiple women since I was very young.  

Thank GOD for this.  You're in heaven.  Keep scoring, man.  And yeah, have a beer - if that helps.

This phenomena is not linked to cheating or seeing others. While I am no expert in female anatomy (Love Godess anyone?)I am thinking it is for the most part bio-chemical. Certain women have low sex drives to start with and the desire simply erodes over time. It may not always be related to kids or menopause..The sex gene simply shuts off..

For a little humor on this thread.  Shoes!  I just counted, and she has 40 pairs to my four. Guess who has 80% of the closet space too.

meant cruise ship tickets, they provide my "Right" to Passage. Close enough for me.

My point exactly.

That's why I can't get married. I can share everything but the closet. I have filled every closet in my house with clothes, shoes, accessories and I don't know what I'd do if I had to make space.

I'm a packrat, I guess. I need someone to help me clean the crap out that I don't particularly use anymore, but hold onto "just in case." Ugh.

Katie

Characters:

Miro – Guy in his 20’s. In love with a girl called Ouanda until they found out they were half-brother/sister (affair of the parents). Subsequent to the breakup, he had an accident that left him scarred and partially crippled.

Valentine – Aunt by marriage that met him after the accident.

“They [Miro and Ouanda] had loved each other, but never slept together. Valentine had been pleased to hear it when Miro told her, though he said it with angry regret. Valentine had long ago observed that in a society that expected chastity and fidelity, the adolescents who controlled and channeled their youthful passions were the ones who grew up to be both strong and civilized. Adolescents in such a community who were either too weak to control themselves or too contemptuous of society’s norms to try usually ended up being either sheep or wolves – either mindless members of the heard or predators who took what they could and gave nothing.

“She had feared, when she first met Miro, that he was a self-pitying weakling or self-centered predator resentful of his confinement [accident]. Neither was so. He might now regret his chastity in adolescence – it was natural for him to wish he had coupled with Ouanda when he was still strong and they were both of age – but Valentine did not regret it. It showed that Miro had inner strength and a sense of responsibility to his community. To Valentine, it was predictable that Miro, by himself, had held back the mob for those crucial moments that saved Rooter and Human.”

From chapter 13 of Xenocide by Orson Scott Card

We had a deal when we traveled, she got the trunk and the backseat for her stuff, and I got the glove compartment. lol

Do women actually ever throw anything away out of their closets?

I have neve observed this phenomenon

There is but one thing and one thing only about "hobbying" that is "evil", in your situation.

First, let me say that the true, deep nature of "evil" is nothing more complex than something done against truth, even if nothing more than refusal to CONSIDER truth. As you are questioning "evil", you are attempting to consider truth. That act is the opposite of "evil".

Now:

The "evil" in this scenario is variable and relative (as is always the case).

These are the questions you must get to the bottom of to define existence of an "evil" element in your own situation:

1. If you had the balls to have a straight-up conversation (delicately as may be dictated) with your wife, what do you TRULY believe her response would be? Obviously, we are all by nature territorial. Only you and she know, however, what her REAL level of prohibition of this sort of activity is. Don't tell me you don't know. We all know our intimate partners as well as or better than we know ourselves, if we are not afraid to SEE what is right before us. If you can't see it, quell your fears, silence your inner questions and LOOK for it within your partner. Now, what is her response likely to be?

2. If you KNOW, truly, that your wife will be UNABLE (by her choice, as again is always the case) to understand that you have needs that she's not meeting in some way, even if your need is nothing more than variety, the next question is to what degree do you ACTUALLY NEED this outside stimulation. Pull your perspective out away from yourself, imagine you were viewing the situation as a 3rd party. Do the benefits that come from engaging in the hobby, if it has been shown to be necessary for the emotional well-being of your partner that you keep it from her, outweigh the negativity that you will carry in your heart every time you have been "unfaithful" to her? Will any possible negativity within you cloud your daily interactions with your wife? I can promise you, once you get a taste of the "power" of satisfying your needs without your wife, you will be tempted to engage less thoroughly with your wife in matters of conflict and importance to your union. It's an integral thing, and it comes down to human nature.

To sum it up, it's NOT evil to hobby if you KNOW who YOU are, KNOW who your wife is, and make your choices from a position of truth and personal integrity. Otherwise, it is evil to one degree or another.

I hope that was helpful. LOL.

I started with "one thing and one thing only" and rambled on. The "one thing" is the same thing that is always evil, as there is only one concept that is actually evil, and that's refusal of truth. Truth exists (absolute, not subjective), and we all have the innate ability to seek it and know it. So, "evil" is to refuse to seek and then to refuse to act on, truth itself. And HOW evil will depend on the degree of of truth refusal.

Our smaller selves will die when this physical body ceases to be. But, we all have "larger" selves (which we are constantly in connection to and communication with), and that does not cease after your last breath. The truth of "God" is completely able to be scientifically articulated, and they are now beginning the science that will allow us to finally wed myth and science and put an end to stupidity, over-simplification and innacurate personification of the "divine". The divine is not "divine" as people would like to understand it, for the ease of their own workload. It's just very large and very abstract when compared with humanity.

To live in accordance with one's own integrity is a good practical world application that will protect your larger energetic vehicle for "the long haul", if you prefer not to view things with unnecessary labels such as "God", blah, blah, blah. You obviously already understand this, which is awesome.

when I read truth expressed exactly as it is from the minds of others "independent" of myself, as I've seen by yourself and "filmat11". Others probably said the same things, as well, but I doubt I'll read through the whole thread.

I just wanted to give "kudos" to those that are doing the work of seeking and sharing truth. It's very important to all of us.

a relationship of SOME level of non-monogamy would be nearly universally dictated. In other words, I agree with you. So, I challenge everyone to start standing up for what they believe in! (If you have to maintain an existing marriage, however, you need to consider that in the process.)

If 2 people agree on an open marriage, good for your (them).

You questioned whether marriage serves a purpose today, and then discussed it within the context of 2 consenting adults.

30+ years ago, the traditions of marriage protected the woman. I can buy your argument that women no longer need protection. But marriage also protects the children. The best environment to raise children is in a stable 2 parent family. Yes kids can thrive in a less than ideal environment. The point is that a stable 2 parent family gives the child the best chance of thriving.

An exclusive relationship serves 2 primary purposes: 1) Minimizes the issue of parentage; and 2) Minimizes the risk that one parter finds a more desirable partner.

BTW: If you don't think marriage serves a purpose today, then why bother? People are accepting of others as "living together" so there is little social pressure to be officially married. You are free to make that choice, and others should be free to make the choice of marriage that contains all of the traditional expectations.

You need to develop an understanding with your wife if you feel guilty.  In my case, my spouse and I long ago recognized that we each needed sexual variety, and came to an understanding. She is my intellectual soulmate, and we support each other's ambitions, but we agreed that each could be free to explore sexual variety - she only get gets mad when someone other that she find out because of the embarassment factor.  But generally, I enjoy a variety of ladies, and she gets to do her thing with her variety of ladies..only she has been more discreet that I have.

How would all of you men feel if your wife was cheating.....

that is the plain, ugly truth.  Pray you don't bring your wife/girlfriend  home a little gift  from your wanderings.   And trust me on this one....on some level they know and are getting back at you and you don't even know it!